For every guy who has ever thought, “my wife hates sex,” or, even worse, “my wife hates ME,” I want to point you to some practical solutions.
Usually I write this blog for women, but I do have a fair number of men who read it, and I get emails all the time from men saying, “my wife hasn’t had sex with me in months. She hates sex, just doesn’t think it’s important, and I don’t know what to do.”
Keith and I tackled this in our podcast last week on what to do if your wife doesn’t like sex. I thought I’d elaborate in a post today, too!
One man writes:
Reader Question
What once (far too long ago) was vibrant, ecstatic, passionate and FREQUENT has become flat, robotic duty-oriented and only frequent enough to miss the definition of sexless. (yes, she actually brought that up in an argument once. She “makes sure” we have sex at least 10-times-a-year so I can’t say it’s a sexless marriage). This has been a downward spiral since we became pregnant with our middle daughter nearly 10 years ago. She had complications with that pregnancy, and I was afraid to hurt her, so we went for 10 months without sex. Steadily, over time, the variety of positions diminished as well. Now about the only “acceptable” position is with her on top.
Over the last year, or so, we’ve fought less and talked more about this and frequency is improving (on average about two or two-and-a-half weeks between encounters.) But it is still a major wedge between us. I fully accept responsibility for allowing our sex life to dissipate. I allowed myself to become bitter and selfish because my needs weren’t being met; deeply un-Jesus of me. I am working to die to myself and my needs, sacrificing myself for my wife in an effort to more fully live out the command of Eph. 5:25, but I struggle SO DEEPLY with feelings of resentment, anger and hunger for my wife.
She is in a very stressful season of life right now, and inasmuch as I know that frequent MEANINGFUL sex could help de-stress her, right now it’s just one more stressor on her to-do list. A messy, unpleasant chore.
And so I thought I’d write a post for the guys on what to do when your wife hates sex. I want to use this question as an example, but I’m not going to analyze it, because I want instead to give guys who think their wives hate sex a blueprint for how to walk through this, no matter what your specific story is. So let’s jump in!
Reality Check: It’s very unlikely your wife hates sex to spite you.
First, I just want to dispel a common myth that many men have if their wives don’t seem interested in sex.
It’s very unlikely that your wife woke up one day and thought, “I’m going to start withholding sex to get at him and make his life miserable.” Yet that’s the way that it’s often talked about (this letter writer doesn’t phrase it that way, but I’ve heard it that way).
Think about this: He admits that sex was once great. But now it’s not.
Now, we know that women are capable of multiple orgasms. Inasmuch as researchers are able to figure this out, it looks like women are even capable of more intense orgasms than men. Like, sex can be seriously awesome for women!
Most people don’t have to be convinced to do something that’s awesome. If you put a piece of chocolate cake in front of your wife, you likely wouldn’t have to pressure, cajole, or convince her to eat it. You may have to try to convince her not to eat it, but most of us don’t need convincing to do something that is awesome.
So if your wife doesn’t want sex and doesn’t like sex, the question really shouldn’t be, “what’s wrong with my wife?” The question should likely switch to, “what’s wrong with the sex my wife is experiencing?”
It’s important to get that mind shift first, because it takes us out of blame mode (my wife is hurting me deliberately!) and puts us into problem solving mode (let’s see how we can fix this).
I know this mind shift can be very emotionally difficult, because when you’ve been rejected sexually, often for years, it feels like a personal rejection. You can feel desperate, as if something that was vitally important was taken away from you.
I’m not trying to deny that feeling. I just want to actually help you, and so I’d like to encourage you to set aside that rejection for a minute, if you can, and look at this from some different angles that may actually help you move towards you goal.
Double Check First: Is it that your wife hates sex, or is it that she has a different libido than you do?
The next thing we have to double check is a simple one: Does your wife hate sex, or does her libido work differently than yours?
Just because she’s not raring to go all the time doesn’t mean she hates sex. She may have more of a responsive libido, and you may have more of a spontaneous libido, meaning that you may feel aroused and in the mood for sex at the drop of a hat, but she may need something to respond to. This doesn’t mean that she’s less sexual or that she hates sex. She simply warms up differently.
The key question is just: once you get started, is she responding and enjoying herself? If she is, then she doesn’t hate sex.
Now, in this particular letter writer’s case, it doesn’t look like his wife hates sex either. It looks instead like there are reasons that sex fell off the cliff. And it’s these reasons that are important to understand.
Figure Out Why Your Wife Doesn’t Like Sex
All of us–yes, even women!–were born with a sex drive. We were created to want to make love and to experience intimacy that way. Unfortunately, that often gets short circuited, and many women “turn off”. It’s important to figure out why.
We recently conducted a survey of 20,000 women for our book The Great Sex Rescue, looking at marital and sexual satisfaction. It was one of the largest surveys that’s ever been done of its kind. And what we found was that frequency was a symptom of a problem; it was not the problem itself.
That doesn’t mean lack of sex isn’t a problem for you! Only that lack of sex is actually a sign that something else is going on. We found that when these five things are present, frequency doesn’t tend to be a problem:
The 5 Signs of a Healthy Sex Life
- High marital satisfaction
- Women frequently reach orgasm during sex
- Women feel emotionally connected to their husbands during sex
- There’s no sexual dysfunction on either side
- There’s no porn use in the marriage
Let’s look at how these five issues could impact your sex life in marriage.
Scenario 1: Relationship Issues–where your wife rejects sex because she feels distant from you
Could relationship issues be behind her feelings about sex? Do you feel like your wife hates you, or like your wife hates sex, because the two aren’t necessarily the same thing. Many men on this blog say that other than sex, the relationship is great. They’re wonderful friends. But there’s no sex. For them, read below. But if it’s more this pervasive feeling like your wife doesn’t like you and doesn’t want to be around you, then that’s a bigger problem to handle.
Sometimes the issue is broken trust. Let’s say, for instance, that you used porn and really hurt her, or you currently use porn. She’s feeling betrayed, and that porn use needs to be dealt with before you even try addressing the sex life.
Or if you’ve been fighting a lot, or just not connecting, she’s going to find her libido plummets.
Sometimes the reason marital satisfaction falls is also because too much may be on her plate. If she’s carrying the majority of the mental load; if she’s doing most of the housework and childcare, she may simply be exhausted and may rightly feel resentful.
Here’s a good test: Do you feel more able to sit down when you want to and do nothing, or leave the house when you want to, than she does?
If so, there’s likely an uneven balance in your relationship that can be building up resentment and simple physical exhaustion over time.
But there’s also good news here. If you can trace the root of the issue, then it’s actually easier to deal with, because it’s largely in your control. You can talk to her honestly, tell her you love her, show her in word and deed that you care about her. You can be a fully participating team member in the household. You can make every effort to acknowledge that you recognize the problem and that you take it seriously and that you will address it.
This may take a while for her to feel close to you again, but if you persist, it will likely get better.
Scenario 2: Your wife hates sex because sex isn’t that great for her
Imagine if every time you went to have sex with your wife, she stopped right before you finished, rolled over, and went to sleep.
And this happened night after night, year after year.
How would you feel about sex?
Now imagine that she had an amazing time before you were even really that turned on. And then nothing ever happened to get you turned on.
Most men cannot imagine sex without orgasm, but for most women, that’s the norm. We found a 47 point orgasm gap between men and women, meaning that 95% of men almost always/always reached orgasm, compared to just over 48% of women. So you may not be able to imagine sex without it feeling incredible for you, but it could be that this is your wife’s normal.
Maybe it’s not that she hates sex, but that she’s never had good sex.
Now, this isn’t necessarily your fault. We also found in our surveys that many women have trouble reaching orgasm because of the messaging that they’ve been given about sex. Many husbands would love to rock their wives’ worlds, but their wife says no. Dismantling the toxic teachings can help.
But if you have sex year after year when it does nothing for her, you solidify in her mind that sex is terrible, AND she’ll feel used.
If she isn’t enjoying sex, stop everything. Figure this out. Read The Great Sex Rescue. Take The Orgasm Course!
The Orgasm Course is Here to Help You Experience Real Passion!
Figure out what’s holding you back. Open the floodgates to orgasm.
Scenario 3: Physical, Psychological, or Emotional Issues She Needs Help For
Many women who hate sex do so for good reason. Maybe they were abused. Maybe they grew up in an environment where they had no control over anything, and they refuse to lose control now. Maybe they were shamed as children. In this letter writer’s case, I wonder if control issues also play a part. She had a difficult pregnancy (very scary for a woman), and now the only position she wants is the one where she is in control. She may have a few control/trust issues that she needs to work out. (she may also have postpartum pain or scar tissue that means this is the only comfortable position; I’d see a pelvic floor physiotherapist if that’s the case!).
These are deep seated issues that affect sex so much for women, because sex is an intensely personal thing for us. We’re literally letting someone else into our bodies. And our sexual response is far more in our heads than yours is. Yes, there are certain parts of our bodies that feel really good when stimulated, but they only feel good if our heads are in the game. If we don’t want to do it, we won’t feel good. We’re brain-centred rather than genitalia-centred.
If she has these issues, then, they need to be dealt with before she’ll ever be able to enjoy sex fully. She needs to get some outside help, and ideally that would involve talking to a licensed counselor.
Other women may hate sex because of sexual pain, or vaginismus.
That was a part of my story; we found in our survey that 22.6% of evangelical women experience pain, and 7% experience it to the point that penetration is difficult, if not impossible.
Imagine if, when having sex, each time you thrust it felt like someone was kicking you in the testicles. Each thrust brought immense pain. How much would you want sex?
And imagine that you were told that you had to endure this pain for the sake of your wife’s pleasure. What would that do to your attitude towards sex?
You should not be seeking pleasure from something that brings your wife pain.
If she is experiencing pain, she needs help before you think about intercourse. Encourage her to see a pelvic floor physiotherapist, because there are good treatments available.
Scenario 4: Your Wife Hates Sex but There’s No Obvious Reason
Maybe she does reach orgasm on the rare occasions that you do have sex, and you do seem to have a good marriage, but there’s nothing else you can pinpoint. There’s no porn use. She’s not in pain. Your wife has time for everything but you, and you’re feeling really neglected and really sad and rather desperate.
I think this is the most common reason, and I want to try to explain what your wife is likely feeling.
Have you ever gone grocery shopping after you’ve had a big meal? It’s actually not that easy to do. You pick up something off of the shelf, and then quite often you put it back because you can’t imagine ever eating it.
When you’re full, it’s very hard to imagine feeling hungry. Foods that would normally tempt you–say, chocolate cheesecake–just don’t seem that alluring.
Many women walk through life with that kind of feeling about sex. But how can they, if they’re not “full”, so to speak? It’s as if their libidos don’t exist.
So there you are, desperate for sex, and your wife acts like it doesn’t even exist and it’s rather distasteful. In this particular letter writer’s case, this could very well be a factor. They were having frequent sex; then they went ten months without it and she never regained her sex drive.
Because she doesn’t want sex, she’s likely perfectly able to keep going through life just as she is. That means that she doesn’t feel any urgent need to get help.
Perhaps when you talk to her about it she gets defensive and breaks down in tears right away and starts talking about how awful she is, and then you have to reassure her and you never get anywhere. That’s a very common scenario, too.
Saying something like this may help:
“Honey, I’m not going to divorce you. When you say things like that, sometimes it feels to me like you’re trying to push me away so that we don’t have to deal with this. But I really would like to.
I want to enjoy a passionate life with you, and I want that for you, too. You deserve to feel passionate and alive, and I’m worried that we’re missing out on one of the huge blessings that God has for us.
Can we talk through what might be affecting how you feel about sex? I’m willing to hear anything, even the hard stuff. And I’m willing to do the work to help make this great, even if it’s repair work that has to be done. This isn’t your problem. I’m not blaming you. This is OUR problem. Can we work on it together?
You might even offer to take intercourse off the table for 60 days, or just work on her own pleasure. Offer to see a counselor with her.
But most of all, listen. Tell her the list of five things that affect frequency and ask her which one, or ones, may be impacting her.
And reassure her that you love her, but you want something more for BOTH of you.
Do that, and hopefully you’ll get to the root of why your wife appears to hate sex.
And once you find the root, it will be so much easier to figure out a way forward!
I recently totally revamped my Boost Your Libido course, too, to help women recover a dormant libido. It’s on sale for $29 until midnight tonight! So check it out if it can help you, too!
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I know this is a really lonely place to be.
Feeling rejected when your wife doesn’t seem to ever want sex is hard. It just is.
I just also believe that the only route forward is to figure out the root. Don’t just blame her; make this your issue together. And I hope that you can work it through and solve it!
What do you think? Any advice for men in this situation? Let’s talk in the comments!
What’s Killing Women’s Libido? Series
- 15 Things that Kill Libido for Women
- A Tale of Three Brains and Libido
- How Brakes and Accelerators Influence Libido
- What are Responsive vs. Spontaneous Libidos?
- Adults need bedtimes too!
- PODCAST: Have we made sex a yes space for men?
- PODCAST: What’s killing women’s libido?
- Don’t miss our sexual confidence series, too!
So after a man has an epiphany that he’s been selfish sexually, perhaps for a decade or two, and wants to improve, he thinks all he has to do is apologize to his wife, and she should simply accept that immediately?
If he’s really sorry, he needs to understand that he must show fruit of repentance. He’s spent the aforementioned years or even decades stealing sexual pleasure from his wife to benefit himself, so he’s got a LOT of undoing in his future. He needs to replace bad habits with good, and his wife is right to expect that transition to take some time. In fact, she also has to replace some habits, so he can’t fault her if she takes some time as well. How long? To be absolutely fair, he ought to expect it to take as long as he was selfish in the first place. If it happens faster than that, he can be glad at that point.
Because think about how long actual “fruit” takes to develop, things like apples and radishes. Radishes can be harvested in four weeks or so after planting, apples in about five months after the blossoms come out. And plants simply run as their DNA and environment require and allow.
Human behavior, however, is more than simply DNA and even environment. Because it adds in free will. And free will takes a lot of work to redirect. So again, such a husband needs to understand the depth of the hurt he has caused, and he needs to be working for behavior change over the long haul. He’s got to retrain his brain, his body, his mind, and his soul, and even five months is probably not particularly realistic, but it’s a good start.
Yes, I agree, Jo. I’m going to do a follow-up one on that and Keith’s working on a post about it too. Some things are better coming from a guy!
Jo R, Yes! this! My ex went to a few months of meetings after 20+ years of infidelity. And then said he had to be patient with me. I lost it. YOU have to be f’n patient with ME? When I have been patiently waiting for DECADES for you to be a good man? Now you think I should heal from that in a few months? Yeah, no.
He has an epiphany and wants to be good. I’ve had 2 decades of selfish sex and I’m done. He can’t be good enough long enough to undo that. He still attempts to initiate what works for him and I just want to hurl.
So I could use some advice.
1. I am married for less than a year, but even on our wedding night my wife was reluctant to have sex
2. My wife says she hates sex, but has had a toy in the past.
3. She doesn’t want to explain why sex is a chore and she hates it, bit has said toy.
4. She had the toy before we met but now claims Jesus is changing her, and she doesn’t want the toy, and doesn’t like sex.
5. Even with when we have sex it’s a hurry up chore, with no foreplay, no touching. Don’t even try and stimulate her, just get it over with.
Our sex life is being choked. Please advise.
Can you read The Great SEx Rescue? She likely has some real issues with intimacy and it’s likely triggering something in her. Would she be willing to go to licensed counseling?
I feel like my husband could probably write this letter. He is aware, now, that I was not orgasming for the 11 years of our marriage. I had put on a good show, playing the part of the enthusiastic, adventurous partner because I thought that was my job as a “good, Christian wife.” And I had been convinced by the “older, wiser” Christians around me that giving my husband lots of sex was life-giving to my marriage (but what they don’t tell you is that it’s soul-crushing to the wife who has to constantly pretend). For the wife in this scenario sex is not awesome, sex is martyrdom. It’s “laying down your life” and “picking up your cross.”
Anyway, fast forward to when I discovered TGSR, and I was as surprised as my husband that rejecting the toxic teachings didn’t automatically flip a switch to great sex. Ten years of bad sex has left a mark. We’ve been trying for the last year to make sex good for me, and I can’t say we’re making progress. When my husband touches me sexually it turns me off, not on. It’s pretty sad, but my husband is not the only sad one. I feel anger at God, resentment, deep sorrow over what was taken from ME, battling hopelessness, lonely at church, feeling like a failure. We are in couples therapy.
Anyway, my advice to the husband in this situation is to make your primary concern not what was taken from you, but what was taken from your wife. Your wife had likely been promised that sex would be awesome and then it wasn’t. Your compassion will give you patience as the two of you work toward healing.
And please understand that it’s really not fair that God created a system where sex is really easy for men and really hard for women. It’s easy to feel like “poor me” but the greater injustice is on your wife’s shoulders.
This comment should be required reading for every man—and woman—who ever preached, taught, or counseled that wives just need to have lots of sex to keep their husbands happy.
I want to scream that last paragraph from the rooftops to all the men.
Right? That’s one of the many reasons I have trouble with faith. It’s hard to believe God doesn’t hate women when you take this issue into consideration.
Oh gosh, that last comment. Not only is it generally quite easy for men, it’s like that across his lifespan.
For women? Nope. Each life stage seems to bring new physical and mental challenges that require one to start from scratch in figuring it all out. It’s extraordinarily frustrating and disheartening.
And if you don’t have an patient, mutually respectful marriage along the way? That only adds to the despair.
This is great, Stefanie! Love this comment so much. I’m going to share it on Facebook later today!
@Stefanie, re this comment:
“And please understand that it’s really not fair that God created a system where sex is really easy for men and really hard for women.”
I don’t doubt for a second that that’s true to your own experience (and the other women here whose own stories it’s obviously resonated with). But I do want to offer a counterpoint, not because your perspective isn’t important or valid, just because it’s one perspective of many.
I’m very jealous of my wife’s orgasms and I’m pretty sure I can’t be the only husband who thinks this. You’re obviously right that sex is ‘harder’ for women in numerous ways. In our case it took years into our marriage before she had her first orgasm. This was obviously crappy for her, and made me feel worthless that entire time too. And I know many women/couples struggle far more than we did. But if I could have my wife’s *current* sexual response instead of my own (without disadvantaging her), I’d swap in a heartbeat.
The reason I say this is that your comment implies that the female sexual response is inferior – a kind of ‘design flaw’. This is a totally understandable conclusion to reach given your story which you’ve bravely shared. I see it differently though – I think the male and female responses are different and complementary. When a husband and wife are able to understand this and cooperate to build on the strengths and work around to weaknesses of each gender’s response, both can be wonderful. When this doesn’t work, as with so many other things, we naturally tend to blame God, but very often it’s human behaviours and ideologies that are at fault (to be clear, I mean this in a very broad sense and am not insinuating you and your husband must have caused your own predicament).
I know your experience has been anything but wonderful though, and can empathize to a very limited extent as we’ve had somewhat similar struggles. I hope you and your husband are able to find a way through the difficulties you’re experiencing soon!
Wow, it must be so hard to reliably orgasm all the time but someone has better orgasms. I bet my experience – never having had an orgasm, letting the prick who calls himself my husband use my body for pleasure he hasn’t given me, had my pelvis on fire during childbirth – pales in comparison to not having quite good enough orgasms. My heart breaks for you.
Screw God. This system sucks.
“In our case it took years into our marriage before she had her first orgasm. This was obviously crappy for her, and made me feel worthless that entire time too.”
Uh-huh. You felt bad.
Did you deny yourself orgasms until she finally had one? Or did you just keep on satisfying yourself—with HER body—while simultaneously “feeling worthless” about her CRAPPY experience?
Trying hard to appreciate your empathy, and frankly, I’m failing miserably. But I will give you a point for your awareness, which is more than some commenters here have gotten from their husbands.
The more I think about it, the more I think that God didn’t design women to have it as difficult as some have it. I actually think we’re meant to have libidos that are more in line with our husband’s.
Could you elaborate on this Jan?
Having spent 10+ years in peri-menopause, and then experiencing my body becoming completely unrecognisable and libido-free since menopause, I’m really curious how one could hold this view.
Our world is not how it’s supposed to be, as we know and it won’t be until Jesus Christ returns. Sexual mismatch and the horrible problems many women face were never meant to be. I just think a high female sex drive was how He wanted it.
@Jane – I’m really sorry your husband treated/treats you that way. Of course I wasn’t suggesting my experience is in any way comparable to having an unloving spouse. Did I say something that implied that?
@Jo – Of course I felt bad – as any good person would when their spouse is missing out on something. I tried regularly to talk to my wife about how to make sex good for her but it wasn’t something she was open to discussing for a long time. Sheila’s example of this near the end of the post really resonated. I wish I could have found the words in her grey box a few months in and maybe our story would have been very different. How would stopping trying to have sex have furthered the goal of making it good for her? What would you recommend another reader in the same position I was a few years ago do?
@Jan – exactly. I’ve obviously never experienced what it’s like for a woman but I can speak from the perspective of half a couple who’d given up hope of mutually satisfying sex and then eventually figured it out. I think the issues are mostly poor communication, lack of understanding (mostly because sex is treated as a taboo) and in some cases selfish/abusive behaviour. Whatever your perspective, none of those are God’s fault. I can understand why people with medical problems that affect their sex life might feel differently, and I’m sure there are other issues I’m not thinking of too.
“How would stopping trying to have sex have furthered the goal of making it good for her?”
Well, that would depend on how you, in particular, define “have sex.”
The most commonly assumed meaning is “husband inserts penis into wife’s vagina and moves until he orgasms.” (Otherwise known around here as PIV.) (And if you doubt that’s the commonly assumed meaning, then if someone says to you, “We had sex twice last night,” what would you think the person means?)
If that’s what YOU mean, then yeah, what would be the point of stopping that on her behalf, when all it would do is stop you from orgasming?
But if you (or anyone) take a broader view of “have sex” to mean “engage in physical activity that will generally lead to orgasm for both husband and wife,” then you could have quite easily “had sex” and yet forego doing anything that would lead to your orgasm and instead focus on activities that would lead to hers. After all, that’s what she did for however long you were “having sex” and SHE wasn’t orgasming.
——
Just once I’d like to read about a man who spent a month or two or six learning how to bring his wife to orgasm while assuring her, as often as necessary, that he wasn’t concerned about his own pleasure—and refused to let her be concerned it, either.
Thanks for clarifying. Yes, “having sex” can be ambiguous. I meant it in an all inclusive sense but could have expressed that better (and maybe slightly misunderstood your first response too)
Anyway, I don’t think my wife would have been open to what you suggest in the early years of our marriage (moot point now anyway). But I can definitely see how it could be helpful for other couples in similar situations. If I had my time again I’d suggest it at least.
Thank you.
Not sure what I’m being thanked for, but you’re welcome to it!
Tim, your response is appreciated, and I hear your gracious tone and I understand what you’re trying to share.
Question for you: Am I allowed to be mad at God? Just last week my therapist shared Deut 24:5 with me. (If a man has recently married, he must not be sent to war or have any other duty laid on him. For one year he is to be free to stay at home and bring happiness to the wife he has married.) because I was sharing my church hurts, and she was trying to encourage me with the thought that God had intended for my marriage to bring me happiness. But the scripture didn’t comfort me as she had hoped. Instead, it brought up a lot of pain. It doesn’t comfort me that God “intended” for my early marriage to bring me happiness. The God who spoke the universe into existence, who parted the Red Sea, stopped the sun in the sky for a day, and rose Jesus from the dead, THAT God? He “intended” for sex to be better than it’s been. I think I’m going to have to heal some more before I start looking at God more charitably. He’s not off the hook. And I think God is aware that he’s not fair. Abraham tells The Rich Man that he had good things on earth while Lazarus had bad things. God knows it’s not fair.
I’m taking the $90/wk we pay for the therapist out of our tithe, btw.
I’m not an expert in any of this, but I’m pretty sure you’re allowed to be mad at God! Maybe Psalm 22 would be a better Bible study for where you’re at than the verse your counsellor shared.
I would gently encourage you to reflect on to what extent it’s God you really should be mad at though. People shake their fists at God when people die in an earthquake (and again, they’re allowed to). But people rarely die because of an earthquake per se. They die because of high density development in inappropriate locations, engineers, builders and landlords who don’t do their jobs, regulators who take bribes, etc etc. Those are all human flaws, the earthquake is just what made their sin deadly rather than ‘just’ evil and/or careless.
Similarly, while I don’t know your story beyond the snippets you’ve shared, I’d hazard a guess that lots of the pain you’ve laid at God’s feet actually results from what people have done (or failed to do). Maybe your husband, maybe your parents, or their parents, or teachers, pastors, doctors etc who have failed to care for you as they should have. Obviously I can only speculate, but maybe that would be a helpful and cathartic thing for you to reflect on (and of course feel free to ignore me if that doesn’t resonate – I’m just some random internet guy you’ll probably never meet).
If it’s any encouragement, I can totally relate to you feeling like your marriage takes happiness away instead of giving it. I also know what it’s like to see the light at the end of the tunnel and eventually emerge out into it. I hope you and your husband can experience that too.
Tim, I stand by my original statement. Globally, historically and statistically, women have had a harder time. That’s not fair. You admitted that your own wife took years to figure out the orgasm piece when I imagine for you it was right off the bat. I bet you didn’t even have to think about it. So when men write in “my wife pulled a bait and switch!” and they fail to recognize the blatant ways they are at an advantage and their wife is at a disadvantage, that’s a crappy system. If the system only works in perfect conditions, that’s a crappy system. God should have accounted for user error when he designed the system.
Please take notice of how many women resonated with the statement that the system sucks. I think hearing men admit that the system is not fair would go a long way in healing wounds and reconciling between the sexes. Like if you said to your wife, “I’m so sorry it took so long for us to make it good for you. That must’ve been really painful. And that’s not fair to you. And it hurts my heart, and I want to do everything I can to make it more equal between us.”
So, do you hear how that’s different from, “Well, you know, God didn’t actually intend for it to suck so bad”?
I think Keith did a really great job along these lines when he was writing the part of The Good Guy’s Guide to Great Sex where he was saying that only 16% of women have fireworks on the wedding night, when nearly all men have a good wedding night (or something like that). And he wrote in such a way to help men understand the unfairness of it and to help men have empathy for their wives and concern to make it great for their wives.
Thanks Stephanie.
“Globally, historically and statistically, women have had a harder time. That’s not fair.”
I agree with this 100%.
But the same is true of lots of things. Women have been given less education, paid worse for the same work, treated disrespectfully by their husbands etc etc, because of human sin and selfishness. And obviously when I say ‘human’, in this case read ‘male’. None of that is fair. Should God have accounted for ‘user error’ (I enjoyed your use of that phrase btw) when he designed the cosmos, humanity and marriage, or does the blame for those things lie with the ‘users’ who made the errors? (Not a rhetorical question – I’d love to know your thoughts).
From my perspective, I just don’t see sex as really that different from marriage generally, society at large, or anything else. When people commit to them selflessly and wholeheartedly they’re wonderful, when people don’t they get very dark and twisted. And if my experience is typical (massive assumption – see my last paragraph) then when it’s working well it’s about twice as good for women as for men – which some might argue would be unfair but I don’t think it’s helpful to see it that way.
Conversely, if God’s will was done on earth as in heaven, I guess women would be honoured, respected, loved and treated fairly, and everyone regardless of gender would be having amazing sex (barring medical issues perhaps – I also realise there are a bunch of huge theological issues I’m totally glossing over in this thought experiment).
You had a few comments/questions on our story which are totally fair to ask. Some of the ways you’ve summarised it aren’t accurate – not that you’d know of course – but I’ve shared about as much of that as i feel I can (even anonymously) without talking to my wife. I may respond to those points later, but I hope you’ll understand if I don’t.
I will correct myself on one thing I said in my first reply though. My wife insists that not experiencing orgasm early on didn’t bother her much at all. I’ll never understand that, but I do believe her. I shouldn’t have described her experience as ‘crappy’ – that’s me projecting.
But I’ve been searching for years and yet to find a book, blog post or podcast with an example that’s similar to the specific struggles we’ve had. So as far as I know we’re total weirdos and our experience might not be that relevant to anyone else. (Hopefully that doesn’t undermine my attempt to encourage you a little with our story in my first message).
Thanks for acknowledging that it is not fair that globally, historically and statistically sex has been worse for women.
Now, for whether that’s people’s fault or a design flaw on God’s part: Obviously, the fallen world is fallen. People sin and mess up God’s creation. God created a good world knowing that it was going to fail spectacularly. Sex does not exist in heaven so basically God knew ahead of time that he was creating sex for a fallen world. It was never designed to exist outside of a fallen state. And when God’s good creation imploded due to sin, the hardships have fallen overwhelmingly disproportionately on women. So, if the system God designed is good for women, but only in perfect conditions, and we don’t live in perfect conditions, and when Jesus comes back and makes everything better, but then sex disappears, how is God not at least partially responsible for creating a system that’s unfair for women?
That’s not to let people off the hook. The church has appallingly bad sex ed. The corpses of people’s hopes and dreams for a happy, fulfilling marriage are littered in the wake of the church’s sex teachings. You say that when things are working “as God designed” the system in skewed in favor of women. Maybe? I wouldn’t know. And the fact that I can’t emphatically assert, “YES! God’s design is GOOD!” is probably an indictment against the Evangelical church.
In conclusion, when a man is complaining that his wife hates sex, and thinks she’s being mean to him by withholding, I think it would do him good to look at the larger picture and understand that his wife is *probably* shouldering the bigger burden, and understanding the unfainess of it all, would put things in perspective and not complain “poor me.” Let’s imagine sex never got better for your wife, and she was not super over-the-moon enthusiastic about blah sex, and you started to complain about her lack of enthusiasm. Understanding that your wife was in a worse spot than you would help you immensely in that situation.
I think this is what Sheila is trying to do with her restaurant analogy. She’s trying to help men understand the big picture and how to move forward and make things better. The first step is understanding the problem, the problem being in our context that sex is much harder for women to get right than for men to get right, and it takes a lot more intentionality to get it right for women than to get it right for men. (That intentionality piece is probably where the unfair design flaw stems from, because when the intentionality is missing, things go wrong for women and not for men.)
The fact that “CHRISTIAN” men have perpetrated these lies for centuries is especially appalling. Do unto others, love you neighbor as yourself, consider others above yourself … all these and more go out the window when a woman needs anything other than two minutes of PIV to even have a shot at enjoying what men take for granted.
Well, for as long as men are young-ish and healthy, at least. Which leads to an even better scenario than the dinner saga for men to contemplate:
Imagine that starting tonight, you develop erectile dysfunction. PIV is therefore off the table. For men who think “sex” is the most important part of marriage, NOW WHAT? Are you suddenly “unmarried” or “less than married” due to your having ED? Will you stop all signs of affection toward your wife, because shoot, it can’t go any further for ***you***? Will you address her sexual needs and desires while simultaneously enjoying the emotional closeness you’ll undoubtedly derive from watching her enjoy the greatest experience on the planet, which, alas, you are denied via PIV?
Now for the really important questions, and please, do ponder them for some time before giving a quick answer:
Will you insist she do other things, non-PIV things, that might at least give you a chance to have an orgasm? How long should your wife spend doing these alternative activities before she gives up in exasperation, complaining that you’re taking too long to get there and it’s up to you to take care of yourself—or that you just do without orgasm entirely?
If you think those last two questions are un-Christian, then why do male teachers and authors say them to women with the spouses reversed? Unfortunately, this last question is NOT rhetorical. It’s TAUGHT in all the best-selling “Christian” marriage and sex books.
Tim, I hope you see this even though I replied to Stefanie. Thank you for your attempt at understanding what Christian women are battling. I’m sure it gives a sliver of hope to at least some of the women here.
Yes, if Christians were living up to our calling, making God’s will done on earth as it is in heaven, Christian women should be the happiest on the planet. Not one of them should be questioning whether God’s system is good or not. It’s so sad. Light to the world? Sadly no.
Fear not Jo. I am refreshing this page WAY too frequently. (I agree with your earlier statement re the comments user interface – hopefully new website improves this).
Your questions all seem to presume a deeply unhealthy relationship and if they were intended to be directed at me personally rather than hypothetical they’re actually really hurtful. I’m pretty difficult to offend and i know it’s coming from a place of hurt at your end. But it’s important you know that a normal man would be really upset at the suggestion he might think/behave in the ways you’re implying he might. (And if those scenarios are based on how your husband treated you, then that’s completely unacceptable and I hope he’s able to come to repentance).
That aside, the ED analogy is a really useful one and I think there’s a chance that me answering your questions might help some people, so I will.
“Are you suddenly “unmarried” or “less than married” due to your having ED? Will you stop all signs of affection toward your wife, because shoot, it can’t go any further for ***you***? Will you address her sexual needs and desires while simultaneously enjoying the emotional closeness you’ll undoubtedly derive from watching her enjoy the greatest experience on the planet, which, alas, you are denied via PIV?”
No, no, and yes, of course.
“Will you insist she do other things, non-PIV things, that might at least give you a chance to have an orgasm?”
Of course I wouldn’t *insist* on anything. My wife would ask what she could do to help, because she isn’t an awful person and we’re now (finally) able to communicate pretty well about sex. I’d make a few suggestions and we’d try to work it out together. I would initiate the conversation if she didn’t, but it’s really hard to imagine that scenario so it’s a moot point.
And if it didn’t work out, then my wife’s orgasms are the best thing about sex for both of us anyway and she doesn’t need intercourse to get there, so I honestly don’t think it’d be a big deal. (As long as the ED was medical and not a symptom of other relationship issues). Other guys would react differently of course. I would have seen it as a bigger deal a few years ago and can’t say for sure how I’ll feel when I’m old enough to actually be at risk of it.
“How long should your wife spend doing these alternative activities before she gives up in exasperation, complaining that you’re taking too long to get there and it’s up to you to take care of yourself—or that you just do without orgasm entirely?”
I’ve never said anything remotely like that to my wife and wouldn’t accept it from her either (not that she ever would because again, she’s not trying to make my life miserable). Of course anyone would be frustrated if they can’t give pleasure to their spouse, but the response you’re describing is toxic, perhaps even abusive. It’s not my place to presume, but if your husband treated you this way I’m so, so sorry.
I realise that I told just a snippet of our story above in a way that practically invites people to fill in the blanks. And again, I know you’ve been badly hurt and your questions are an expression of that. You’re right to be angry at the way you’ve been treated. But even in that context, I don’t think it’s fair for you to assume that I’m a selfish, uncaring and potentially abusive husband just because we struggled with sex. Your story is not everyone’s story.
If that’s not what you intended then I’m sorry for reacting as I have, but that’s certainly how your comment came across to me.
Tim, I am SO SORRY! You’re absolutely right. I should have done the pronouns as he/him and she/her instead of you/your so that it was generic, because I was MOST DEFINITELY ***NOT*** addressing or attacking you personally. Again, my most abject apologies for that.
On the flip side, if you read comments here (I’ve been here about two years now), the two important questions I asked reflect things that other (female) commenters have reported that their husbands have said to them. That is, since those women need more and different sexual stimulation than plain PIV, while the husbands need only PIV, the wives have been told that it’s not up to the husbands to do more for the wives. Or relse the wives have to take care of themselves or else do without orgasms entirely. I am totally not kidding.
That’s why I used the ED analogy, because it’s pretty much the same. When a man cannot get an erection, it takes a lot more and different work to bring him to orgasm, just like the typical woman needs more than PIV (something like 63 percent of women find it very difficult to orgasm through only PIV because anatomical geometry does not allow for enough clitoral stimulation).
Again, I am very sorry for not framing my comment in a generic manner. I’m thrilled you and your wife have been able to grow! Here’s to further improvement! 👍 👍 👍
Thanks Jo. Apology accepted. I should have asked for clarification before I got defensive too so apologies for that.
Again, I agree that ED is a helpful analogy and that, unfortunately, there are some men who need to be asked those questions.
Tim: “Your questions all seem to presume a deeply unhealthy relationship”
Hi, Tim. I’m one that is also recovering from a deeply unhealthy relationship.
I get messages in my Facebook feed from “Betrayal Trauma Recovery” and thought to myself, by my experience, to be in a relationship with a man is to be in a relationship of betrayal. And I know that thinking this way is only because of my experience. I know good men exist and see women in loving relationships with them where there isn’t years of betrayal.
But the damage has been done. I’m not done healing. But I have given up on ever being in a healthy relationship with a man.
All this to say, yes, I know all men are not like my ex. But I hope that you can understand that a very large percentage are and that ‘Christian’ teachings have been producing and attracting a lot of unsafe, unhealthy men to churches to prey on unsuspecting women.
Thanks Mara. I do understand that lots of Sheila’s readers have a story similar to yours, which is so sad. I hope you’re able to find healing soon.
I don’t have to “Imagine that you develop erectile dysfunction. PIV is therefore off the table.” That is my situation. We still did other things and she had orgasms.
The latest statement from her was that being one flesh is only possible through intercourse (PIV sex). So she says that since I have ED and PIV is off the table that she doesn’t want to do anything else. I sure do miss it all.
Thanks Stefanie. That’s really well expressed, and I agree with pretty much all of what you said. I think this is the crux of where we see it differently (with emphasis added):
“So, if the system God designed is good for women, but only in *perfect* conditions, and we don’t live in *perfect* conditions, and when Jesus comes back and makes everything better, but then *sex disappears*, how is God not at least partially responsible for creating a system that’s unfair for women?”
I think you’re mixing two different things when you say”perfect”. We agree that the effects of sexual sin disproportionately harm women. I think that’s as obvious as it is heartbreaking. I’m really sorry that you’ve been hurt by that personally.
But it doesn’t follow that conditions have to be perfect for women to not have a bad experience. We are both far from perfect and our marriage came pretty close to falling apart last year, but sex has been consistently amazing for my wife (for me too, but we’re talking about the female experience) for about as long now as it wasn’t initially. And I if not for the cultural issues you sum up so well in your paragraph starting “That’s not to let people off the hook…” I’m pretty certain it would have been amazing for us both right from the start. (In our case it has a lot more to do with our families of origin and society at large than the church, but the churches we’ve been a part of at least failed to help us deconstruct that, and other churches have of course actively reinforced harmful ideas).
So I would rephrase the first part of your comment that I quoted above along the lines of “The system God designed is good for everyone, but when the consequences of sin pervert that design, women are more likely than men to be harmed.” We can probably agree to disagree now on whether that makes the system itself unfair (though I’m very happy to continue the conversation if it’s helpful for you). Regardless, I can certainly understand why you’d feel that way, given what you’ve experienced. And again, I don’t think you should be afraid of feeling angry at God or expressing that anger in ways that will help you to heal.
Side note: I’m also not sure that sex isn’t a part of the new creation. Mat 22:30 certainly seems to support your view on that, but I think it’s open to interpretation. I do assume that if sex does come to an end, it will be replaced with something better, though I’m sure that won’t be a lot of comfort to you in your current situation.
It sounds like you’ve never been able to experience any freedom from the harm that’s been done to you and I really hope that will change for you soon. As I said to Jo, this conversation has brought a lot of healing for us (in a roundabout way), and I hope it’s been at least a little bit helpful for you too.
Thanks for the conversation.
Apologies, I spelled your name incorrectly but don’t think i can edit my comment.
Also, I meant to ask what you were referring to with your “bait and switch” comment.
For how men do a bait and switch, read my comment containing “very high libido.”
—
As to your comment that “My wife insists that not experiencing orgasm early on didn’t bother her much at all. I’ll never understand that, but I do believe her,” read my response to “Guest-2” asking what “enjoying sex” means. Given those teachings, women expect to not orgasm themselves, yet are supposed to “be content” to see their husbands having what many people call the greatest experience on the planet. See also the dinner saga post for a “this is what it’s really like” reversal: https://baremarriage.com/2022/03/why-women-may-not-want-sex-in-marriage/
—
“when it’s working well it’s about twice as good for women as for men”
Are you referring to women’s ability to have multiple orgasms, contrasted to a man’s usual one-and-done? Is there even the slightest chance that God gave women that ability to make up for menstrual cycles, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, postpartum, perimenopause, and menopause, all of which wreak havoc with our hormones and very often our ability to orgasm AT ALL? Read the comment by “Guest” containing “Basically, what worked at 20 won’t work at 30, won’t work at 40, won’t work at 50.”
(Sorry you have to search for phrases. It would be easier to specify exact timestamps, but the comments show relative rather than absolute times.)
Thanks Jo. I get bait and switch now! (And I said it before, but really sorry your husband treated you that way).
Re the last bit, I actually wasn’t thinking of multiples at all when I wrote that. But that aside, I suspect you’re pretty spot on in that paragraph (no way to know for sure, obviously).
Middle section – will follow those rabbit trails when I get a chance and let you know what I think. I actually just asked my wife to read this blog post with me and we had the best conversation (by about a million times) we’ve ever had about this stuff. Will share some of that too if she’s happy for me to, on the off chance it helps someone else.
Thanks so much to you and Stefanie for the conversation (and of course to Sheila for providing the forum for it). The weight is really starting to lift and I’ll be eternally grateful.
I read somewhere (of course, I didn’t note the location down so I could find it again) that the subtext of why a newlywed man got that year off was so he could learn to bring his wife to orgasm. 🤔😏😯🤯
Imagine if that teaching were the, er, thrust (!) of honeymoon education.
Interesting! You might have found it here: https://explorethefaith.com/sexuality-in-the-book-of-deuteronomy/
They don’t do a great job of explaining why they think that, but it’s a likely enough interpretation.
Fwiw, the same Hebrew word is used with sexual connotations here:
““Draw me after you and let us run together! The king has brought me into his chambers.” “We will rejoice in you and *be glad*; We will extol your love more than wine. Rightly do they love you.”” (Song 1:4, NASB)
(But it’s also used a gigabunch of times in other contexts so make of that what you will)
“Just once I’d like to read about a man who spent a month or two or six learning how to bring his wife to orgasm while assuring her, as often as necessary, that he wasn’t concerned about his own pleasure—and refused to let her be concerned it, either.”
Right? That should be standard Christian sex education.
“Just once I’d like to read about a man who spent a month or two or six learning how to bring his wife to orgasm while assuring her, as often as necessary, that he wasn’t concerned about his own pleasure—and refused to let her be concerned it, either”
I wholeheartedly agree. I hope people hear this a great more many times than from me, but I’ve been married 9 months now…
After having “PIV” about 3 times in our first month of marriage (which was my choice), I plummeted deeper into depression. Because of the massive trauma from purity culture and the obligation sex message, I couldn’t orgasm when I was telling myself I had to “let him in” afterwards.
So he assured me our sexy time was all about me—and that I needed to stop thinking about having “PIV,” because we weren’t going to unless I really, really wanted to, and he would wait as long as it takes to help me feel good.
Some people would say we haven’t had “sex” in 8 months… but we beg to differ. I’ve been learning to feel really amazing, and orgasm regularly now, and because I feel good and want to, I help him orgasm too—but only in ways I am comfortable with. I’ve been learning to listen to my body and it’s feeling less and less like my enemy. Sometimes it feels like I’m being really bossy to my husband, because I say, “oh, that feels good…no, stop now…” and change my mind and am really specific with what I want and what I don’t want. But in my experience, you have to be, and he has to listen of course (my husband does, btw).
Taking a “break” in certain ways has brought so much healing into my life, although I’m not done yet. You just can’t expect years of being told that it doesn’t matter how your body feels and that you just need to submit to your husband and let him lead you into sex (and apparently “no” isn’t an option since that would hurt his “manhood”?) to not have an affect on a woman’s body and mind.
I hope letting the woman have control over what happens to her body becomes normalized in Evangelical Christian culture.
Don’t feel bad about sounding ‘bossy’. A man who wants it to be good for his wife is going to be delighted when she communicates clearly because it helps him know when he is on the right track. My husband loves it when I tell him or show him what is good for me.
Just in case anyone wanted to hear this backed up from a male perspective, Angharad is 100% right here. The last two comments (hers and ‘Treasured’s) are great!
I can bring my wife to orgasm EVERY time we have sex. I much much prefer that she have an orgasm EVERY time. And I often can give her what feel like thundering and shuddering orgasms. Despite this, she almost always opts to 1. NO 2.Get this over with 3. Minimal foreplay, then get it over with or 4. (Maybe 1 out 5, maybe less) will allow us the time for intimacy, foreplay and an orgasm for her then me. She refuses to talk about if I can make it fabulous enough that she would want more – zero interest in talking about it. Her late father was the most influential man in her life and I think there is some weird Catholic guilt or father/ daughter dirtiness thing that maybe therapy could uncover (but zero chance for therapy). This is not on me- I understand there is more to intimacy and sex than intercourse and orgasms but she is so blocked there, it’s useless. I’m starting to wonder why men should be required to be monogamous- if she hates sex so much AND if she thinks it’s such an unimportant part of a marriage, why would she care one bit if I engaged in such a horrible act with someone else? I know that is stupid, but I sometime think that way. Btw, my marriage is awesome in every other way unless there is some other problem that I’m missing and that she isn’t telling me
I think we were too! It does look like our libidos have been artificially lowered.
Sheila, as always, a really wonderful post. Stefanie’s comment above is great.
One thing that stuck out to me was that prior to the second pregnancy (and dude, “you” didn’t get pregnant; SHE got pregnant), sex was frequent and passionate. During and after pregnancy, that changed. It sounds like there were profound physical and psychological changes that took place (obvious, I know), and it’s possible that your response to those changes caused further problems.
Now, for husbands whose wives are struggling with a hell pregnancy or postpartum complications, the best thing you can do is to put intimacy in her hands. Do not expect her to be “the way she was before,” because that’s incredibly hurtful and damaging. It’s hard enough to have your body wrecked; it’s devastating when your husband treats you like you’re “lesser” than you were before pregnancy.
Only personal experience here: I have taken things off the table permanently when I’ve gotten tired of fighting about it. Husband spends two years touching my clitoris in ways that are often quite painful for me? I use my words for two years straight and might as well be talking to a brick wall? No more touching the clitoris, ever. The only two options he’s made available to me are “pain” and “don’t touch at all,” and after exhausting all efforts to get a third option, I will choose the latter.
To all husbands: you can’t convince your wife to like something that is painful or unpleasant. You can convince her that you’re not going to change; you can convince her that her choices are pain or abstinence; but you can’t convince her that she should enjoy or accept painful things.
That last paragraph is so perfect, Jane!
So glad I wasn’t the only one who bristled at the mention of “them” getting pregnant haha
As I was reading this post I kept thinking “Oh boy! I can’t wait to see what Jo R is going to say about this!” And then she was the first commenter. 🤣.
Anyways. So this post was addressed to men. Not women. So I would like to offer my own advice to men who are in sexless or nearly sexless marriages. So here it is:
The death of sex in a marriage is a death. And it needs to be treated as such. You need to be allowed to grieve it. Much has been written about the stages of grief. And they apply to this death as well. The problem is in the letter writer’s situation, the death is not official yet. The sex life is on life support. He’s hurting and suffering but he can’t really start the grieving process because the finality of death hasn’t hit yet. They are still having sex the non-sexless-marriage-requisite ten times a year. So it’s on life support. And those ten times a year? Ya she’s not doing it with you because she wants to. She’s doing it to tick off a box. She’s using you for her purposes. She’s not sexually safe. So my advice to him is to say “no” to the ten times a year. Remove the patient from life support. Then true grieving and healing can occur. It’s only human nature to blame yourself after a death. How often do we say things like “If only I had done xyz…..so and so might still be alive”. Once, a long time ago, I had a narrow 30 second window to try and convince a friend of mine not to get into a car. I didn’t take it. He got in. He died in that car a couple hours later. The death of a sex life is much the same. After it happens you might be wondering if you had been better looking would she have wanted sex? Or if only you had been better in bed or had a bigger penis would she want sex? Or if your tongue could vibrate would she still want sex? It’s human nature to wonder these things after a death. In fact, it’s part of the grieving process! Now she will have mixed emotions about you removing the patient from life support. On the one hand she will be upset that the control element will be taken away from her. On the other hand she will be relieved that she doesn’t have to have sex anymore; which she clearly doesn’t want to do anyway. It’s just not how she wants to spend her time.
When you entered into the marriage you were doing so believing there would be sex. And there really hasn’t been. And thats been crushing you, and taking years off your life since the body keeps score. You need closure. You need to be allowed to grieve the loss by going through all the stages of grief. Then, as time passes, you will find it easier (or at least less frequent) to deal with. I have walked down this path my brother. Been proceeding on this path from grief to peace for over a decade. And have made much progress. Not perfect but getting there slowly but surely. You are stronger than you think. You can do this!
So ya, that’s my advice to men in this situation.
Chris, I’m sorry you’re grieving. I am. But what you’re basically saying is that if she doesn’t like sex, you should just give up. You should allow both of you to suffer rather than have the man have to do some work.
There is work that many guys can do. To just tell men to give up is really saying, “it’s not fair that we should have to do some work.”
Yes Sheila, I am going through the different stages of grief but I am doing a lot better now than I was say even two years ago.
That said, there reaches a point where you can’t let yourself be used anymore. And you need to be able to stand up for yourself.
This statement “You should allow both of you to suffer rather than have the man have to do some work” is very presumptuous. In the case of the letter writer we don’t know that his wife is suffering at all. She could be perfectly happy with the frequency that they have. It works for her so why change it? As for men “doing some work” that’s fine as long he is working on himself (being a better spouse/parent etc.) and that staying in the relationship doesn’t endanger his health. If the relationship is taking such a toll on him that it is actually damaging his physical health, then yes. He needs to “give up” so that he can grieve and thus eventually some healing can occur.
Chris, one of the big things that Sheila talks about (and I wholeheartedly agree with) is that you can’t apply principles and techniques that work with healthy people to unhealthy people.
You talk about a woman who is “perfectly happy” with no sex. Please read what I wrote below about a hierarchy of choices. Emotionally unhealthy women exist, absolutely. I cannot tell you how to handle those people because I’m not a psychologist and do not have insight into the particular brand of emotional dysfunction causing the problem. All I can say is – an emotionally healthy woman who is “perfectly happy” not having sex is a woman who is avoiding bad sex at all costs. The solution is to make sex as good for her as it is for him.
And please, let’s all remember how differently men and women define “bad sex.” Men think “bad sex” is a less-than-stellar orgasm, or he didn’t get some or a lot of oral, or he didn’t get to do some nifty position. Women think “bad sex” means painful sex, or sex without an orgasm, or being coerced in some way.
Not exactly apples and oranges.
Jane, you and I rate your hierarchy the exact same. Back when my wife and I were sexually active, I would have given anything for mutually satisfying sex. But our routine was very simple: once or twice a year she would say she wanted a massage. So I would give her one. Then she would be open to some forplay which consisted of me doing things to her. Then she would want to be provided with oral until she orgasmed. Then she would be asleep within a minute or two of the orgasm. Nowhere during any of this would my clothes even come off. In one instance I recall my shoes not even coming off. I remember walking out of the room the last time thinking I had become a human vibrator. So all that over sharing just to say “I get it”. Jo R likely doesn’t believe that this scenario can even happen. But it does. So I put an end to it. So that I could start the healing journey. And I am just starting to truly heal and move past it. And I would encourage other men who are in similar situations to seek out therapy like I did so you can move past it and heal.
Oh, I believe you, Chris.
What I don’t understand is why it’s so acceptable in such large swaths of Christianity when it goes in the other direction.
Chris, I completely understand your pain. One-sided sex is soul-crushingly miserable.
Jo’s point is that men and women have very different definitions of “bad sex.” For almost all men (not your experience), sex ranges from about a 7 to a 10. So they call “7” sex “bad sex.”
For women, sex is anywhere from like a -30 (rape) to a 10, with a huge amount in the 2 or 3 range (unsatisfying, not fun, feeling used).
“there reaches a point where you can’t let yourself be used anymore. And you need to be able to stand up for yourself.”
Exactly.
Except that the vast majority of male pastors, teachers, and authors teach that being used and not standing up for yourself is not only acceptable but REQUIRED BY GOD…when it’s WIVES who are being used.
That’s what we’re all objecting to, Chris. We don’t think it’s right when it happens to you, a man, but what we women don’t get is why it’s perfectly fine for wives to be used by their husbands.
Chris. Men are not entitled to a vagina to put their penis in on the regular. Women have needs too. The writer would be better off trying to figure out how to solve the problem.
When I got married, I had a VERY high libido. I expected our marriage to be just like our dating and engaged relationship, only with sex.
What happened pretty much immediately was the cessation of all the activities that helped give me that high libido: long talks on deep subjects, snuggling on the couch, nonsexual touch, the smallest of actions that showed the slightest bit of thoughtful imagination.
By our first anniversary, all the stuff that had been the basis of our relationship simply went away. Why? Because there’s no impetus for a man to continue them. He’s won her, and if they’re Christians, she’s trapped.
Why didn’t I say anything? Well, since I was eyeballs-deep in “he needs to lead,” “he makes the tie-breaking decision,” “you must be respectful to your husband no matter what, ” and “women shouldn’t teach men,” then how was I ever supposed to bring up the fact that “Hey, you wanna do it?” wasn’t exactly going to get my engine revving? I couldn’t even say “ouch” or “hey, a little to the right” in bed, because, again, disrespectful and teaching. (And about half a dozen attempts just led to pouting, so I took that reaction as my “due” for being “disrespectful” and “trying to teach.”)
How was I, and millions of women just like me, supposed to do any kind of course correction? Who, in such cases, do you think starts the grieving process, and when? I realized just last year that I’ve actually been grieving since our first anniversary, but I’d also been gaslighting ***myself*** for more than three decades, telling myself I was “happily” married.
If husbands can’t—or won’t—be told things with words, what do wives have left? Actions. And the strongest action, unfortunately, revolves around sex, from lack of enthusiasm, to lack of desire, to simply stopping altogether. WHAT ELSE CAN WIVES DO, if bringing up issues gets us labeled as disrespectful, usurping authority, and attempting to teach a man?
Chris and Jo R (and others in this thread who’ve been treated cruelly by their spouses) – no one else has, so I just wanted to say I’m really sorry that happened to you. It must have been so hard to deal with that.
I do suspect though (without minimising what Sheila’s reader and his wife are experiencing) that the things you’ve both had to go through in your marriages may be quite a bit more extreme than in the case that Sheila is responding to. E.g. In Chris’s own situation, I can’t comment on whether the ‘turn off the life support’ idea is an example of setting healthy boundaries or counterproductive, because I’ve thankfully never been in a relationship with someone who’s cruel or selfish. But in the situation Sheila’s reader is in, I do think that suggestion would make things worse, not better.
Not cruelty so much as … how to put it … benign indifference. If it doesn’t affect him directly, it simply is not on his radar.
(And that is one reason why the whole “meet his needs, then he’ll meet yours” is so particularly aggravating. Women are raised to meet everyone else’s needs, to the absolute denial they might have some of their own. Throw in “Christian” teaching that he’s the leader and that if the wife questions or suggests something, she’s usurping her husband’s position and authority, and you get the mess that is so prevalent in the church. But I digress.)
Why should someone who is having every need met ever notice that other people are not having their needs met? He’s in his happy bubble, so everything and everyone else must be fine and dandy.
Add in the disrespect factor that a wife would incur in even mentioning one of her needs, because such an admission directly impugns his leadership ability and because all the resources she’s been going to tell her that she absolutely must respect him no matter what, then how, exactly, is she supposed to bring even the most minor need to his attention, let alone broach the subject that sex totally sucks for her?
Perhaps you don’t realize it, but all the popular “Christian” books tell women to make their husbands FEEL LIKE the men are good lovers. I don’t think a single one has the temerity to suggest that husbands actually BE good lovers.
If this kind of situation lasts a couple months after the wedding, that’s one thing. But when it drags on for years and literally DECADES, as it has for all too many of us (because of the aforementioned “wives can’t impugn a husband’s leadership” thing), the toll accumulates. The net effect is not trivial, to put it mildly.
Perhaps ‘cruel’ was an overstatement (in your case at least), but I imagine you would have experienced it as something pretty similar. Regardless, I’m sorry you were treated that way. No one should have to experience that.
Re your comment on Christian marriage books, I’m very aware of that now. My primary goal in sex has always been my wife’s pleasure (though without much success for a long time, as per my “worthless” comment above that you took exception to). I guess it never occurred to me that any man would feel differently and the absence of that emphasis in books I read wasn’t something I noticed. Sometimes if you assume something is there you can see it even if it isn’t. Or maybe it’s just selection bias – the main problem we’ve had was her lack of pleasure in sex so I only bothered reading books that covered it and ignored the ones that didn’t.
At the risk of over analysing, I think I see a similar phenomenon in some of your posts. It sounds like you’ve had a really sad and lonely marriage and been treated ways no one should be treated (and again, I’m really sorry that happened to you). In a lot of your comments you seem to read that experience into other’s situations, which sadly may be accurate quite often, but certainly isn’t all the time. It’s possible the wife of Sheila’s reader who wrote in is going through something similar to what you have, but my reading of the question was that they’re facing different issues.
I’m thinking we are married to the same man. lol
Actually I’ve lost two marriages due to this same teachings. My first marriage failed because my best friend was better able to prove she could “serve” him better. My current marriage is failing because I’m not sufficient to meet all the “entitlement” needs my husband has and expects.
I’m doing my best and it’s never enough. For me there is no win-win!!
Chris, I can’t speak for other women, only for myself. If you have known women who used sex for control, that’s not anything I can offer perspective or advice on. What I can say is – my preference hierarchy is below:
1. Mutually enjoyable sex
2. No sex
3. One sided sex.
Many women take years or decades to understand that their husbands will NEVER give them Option #1. That’s when marriages end or become sexless. At that point, it’s not the man who needs to “grieve” or “regain control;” he needs to look at himself in the mirror and say “I told my wife, in word and deed, that sex was never going to be orgasmic and enjoyable for her. It took her years, but she finally believed me. Now that she believes me, I’m reaping the consequences, and wow, destroying sex for her was the dumbest and cruelest thing I’ve done in my entire life.”
This. All of this, and especially the women’s sexual hierarchy.
Ever notice that the entire push on obligation sex is to convince women to flip #2 and #3 in their hierarchy?
Of course, because then the important person in the marriage is getting the orgasms.
Why doesn’t the obligation-sex message ever mention that the other person in the marriage is a person, not a blow-up doll?
(Oops, getting obnoxious in my comments…)
Absolutely, Jane! In The Great Sex Rescue, we call this the “Sexless Marriage in Disguise”–the marriage where technically they’re having intercourse but she’s not orgasming and she feels distant from him during sex (feels used). We found that this resulted ultimately in lack of intercourse eventually too, and we found that this was worse for women than not having intercourse at all. Exactly what you said.
Chris, I think you have missed one of Sheila’s main points. If sex is as good as it is MEANT to be for a woman, she is not going to limit herself to a handful of times a year. So any wife who only ‘allows’ sex 10-12 times a year is doing so because it ISN’T good for her.
You seem so anxious to blame the woman for the sexless marriage that you don’t realise how inconsistent you are being. Just reread some of your own comments: “she’s not doing it with you because she wants to…She’s using you for her purposes.” And “On the one hand she will be upset that the control element will be taken away from her. On the other hand she will be relieved that she doesn’t have to have sex anymore; which she clearly doesn’t want to do anyway.”
Don’t you see how inconsistent that is? To say that she is not having sex because she wants to, but at the same time to say that she is having sex because she wants to use you. And when you say that she will upset at losing control but also relieved that she no longer has to have sex – how is it being ‘in control’ to HAVE to do something you don’t want to do?
You use the analogy of a life support machine for a marriage where sex only happens a few times a year, and your solution is to ‘turn off the machine’ and grieve the death of sex. But what you are actually doing is akin to finding someone collapsed on the ground, struggling to breath and deciding that there is no point in calling an ambulance because they will probably die anyway.
Well put!
Angharad,
To your first point: No, I am fully aware of Sheila’s recurring point that if women don’t want sex, the sex must be bad. This is a very rational and logical view! And I love it because I am a logically minded person myself. So it resonates with me. But when it comes to marriage and relationships, take logic and throw it right out the window. It is just not how relationships work.
To your second point about me being blame happy: I don’t like blaming anyone. But sometimes you need to see things for how they are.
To your third point about my being inconsistent: Ya, you lost me on that one. “To say that she is not having sex because she wants to, but at the same time to say that she is having sex because she wants to use you.“ I guess this is what you mean. I will try to articulate it differently. In short the letter writers wife does not want to have sex with him.At all. BUT, she will force herself to do it ten times a year (the definition of a sexless marriage) in order to raise that point as an affirmative defense in any future argument the couple may have about the marriage being sexless. She’s not “using him for sex” in the more traditional way that term is used i.e. for an orgasm, but i used the phrase “for her own purposes” for a reason. Her purpose here being that she can argue that shes not in a sexless marriage and that shes not one of “those” wives.
To your fourth point: “How is it being ‘in control’ to HAVE to do something you don’t want to do?” Oh thats an easy one. In any marriage the frequency of intimacy is in the hands of the lower drive spouse. It is only when the lower drive spouse wants sex that it happens. So hence the lower drive spouse has all the control, even if they are unaware of the power they have.
To your last paragraph, thats just a matter of severity. If you have a young newlywed couple then yes they should take the time to figure things out. But once decades are involved, it’s time to take the patient off life support. Hope that clears things up.
There’s a very fine line between saying that healthy, mutually enjoyable sex is an important part of a healthy relationship…. and saying sex is an entitlement. It’s usually men who get the entitlement message, and women who get the “must put out in order to keep the ‘marriage’ (aka husband) happy” message. Especially people who are getting their marriage advice from the “church”.
It is vital that we start talking about sex as a mutual thing, not an entitlement. Not an expectation. Something to do together that you both enjoy.
I find the last part of the guy’s letter quite disturbing. He’s acknowledges his wife is dealing with stress.
But then his solution – I’m guessing decided unilaterally – is for her to have “mutually” satisfying sex.
No thoughts about asking what support she needs or wants, nor what he could do to take some of the load off. Nope.
He goes straight to sex, with an emphasis on it being “mutually” satisfying. On the surface that might seem good… Except that it almost certainly means HE expects it satisfying for HIM.
So not only does she have to do all the work to deal her barriers, frustrations, health concerns, but she’s still expected to make sure he’s satisfied as well.
Exactly. Like, it’s her body, not his. She knows better than him what would de-stress her, and what would just add stress on. For some people (I’m guessing actually most people) stress saps their sex drive. Does he really imagine that on top of her existing stress, she really wants the pressure of addressing their already beleaguered sex life of an evening, rather than having a nice bath or glass of wine with her favourite show, or reading before bed?
It’s almost like an extrovert friend saying to me, “I can see you’re stressed, how about I call you on the phone sometime before you go to bed this evening?’ For me, an introvert, a phone call with a friend is a social event that I like to schedule in advance, because although I like talking to my friends, it’s not something I’d choose as a relaxing evening activity. I’d choose something that didn’t require social interaction. My extrovert friend means well, but she has no idea what would relax me – only what would work for her.
Guys,
I speak from experience. Porn will ruin your marriage. My husband and I had a very fun and entertaining sex life until porn took him over. Now I have zero interest in even touching him. If you watch R rated or explicit shows, they have the same effect. Please don’t ruin your marriage like this.
“She is in a very stressful season of life right now, and inasmuch as I know that frequent MEANINGFUL sex could help de-stress her, right now it’s just one more stressor on her to-do list. A messy, unpleasant chore.”
Sorry, that is simply NOT true. If she is in a very stressful season of life and if sex is one MORE stressor on her, then convincing her to just do it will not de-stress her. This is like saying that buying a relaxing vacation at an all-inclusive resort will help you de-stress from teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. If you are at that resort knowing you cannot pay the bill, you will not relax and de-stress while you are there. It will actually be MORE stressful to be at that lovely resort than just staying home, going to work, and trying to pay down your bills.
Another analogy is if you have a huge project due at work or school and you’re running behind. You know you’re going to have to pull 18 hour days, several days in a row, to make the deadline. Your wife tries to tell you that you’ll feel better if you go out for dinner and dancing with friends tonight. But, will you? Knowing that a night out means you might actually have to pull an all-nighter to meet that deadline? Wouldn’t you rather go our for dinner and dancing AFTER you’ve completed the project and the stressful time is over?
See what you can take on, fully take on, so she has fewer things she’s responsible for. Don’t wait to be asked, don’t do a chore one time and think you’re helping (that’s what children do). Actually take full ownership of some of the things she’s managing. Or see if you can get reliable help into the home.
Yes, I totally agree with this. If she’s way more stressed than he is, there’s an imbalance there that needs to be fixed before we talk much about sex!
I’m wondering why he’s upset that she always wants to be on top. For some women that’s the only position that allows them to orgasm. Maybe they’ve talked about it but the letter doesn’t indicate he’s asked her why she only wants that one position. The vast majority of men can orgasm in any position. Most women have far fewer options because intercourse is only tangential to our orgasm. The vagina isn’t necessary for us.
Some women who are survivors of sexual abuse find that being on top is less traumatic, because there is no feeling of being trapped or over-powered.
I’m also wondering if you’ve suggested counseling.
In the last year or so they have talked about it more, fought less, and have doubled their number of sexual encounters yet she is in a more stressful time of life despite him claiming it would be stress-reducing for her… hmm.
He stresses frequency yet says nothing about how well satisfied she is afterwards despite them talking about it more.
If she was making sure she put out 10 times/year to not be a “sexless marriage,” could be she was trying to do her duty to keep herself safe from a reason for him to file divorce. Perhaps she feels incredibly insecure about his desire to stay married. As another commentor already mentioned… in those 10 months, how did he show her love despite not having sex??
And complaints of her only being on top… could be she’s trying to limit her discomfort/pain, it’s her best chance at climaxing, or maybe that is her way of really trying to enjoy this activity he wants more of.
Totally. And it all comes back to the ‘if this is so great for her, then why is she limiting it?’
Also, he doesn’t mention when his ‘anger and resentment’ started, but if it was during the time sex was off the table because of her difficult pregnancy, it’s not surprising that she is nervous to restart it. I 100% trust my husband, but I know that if I were picking up on angry emotions in him, whether or not they were aimed at me, it would have a huge impact on my ability to be comfortable having sex. Even if consciously, I knew I was safe, my subconscious would be screaming at me that I was making myself too vulnerable.
Very good questions!
The more I read on that topic, the more I realize sex is like a warning bell that says how healthy a relationship is. Now I see there ARE some physical or psychological issues that deal ONLY with genitalia, but most of the time, it’s the relationship that is broken or dammaged.
And the more I get how lucky I am to have married a man who doesn’t check the “manly man” boxes, nor doesn’t give a sh*t on those. A man that listen, is willing to talk out issues, and practices self-sacrifice (which well … I know it’s exactly means to be Christlike as in Eph 5, but I did not really believe men did this, only women …)
I matters because I definitely am the kind of woman that would figure that sex is only for men and try to give him what he wants as a “duty”, not a love act.
Also, as Catholics who practice NFP, temporary abstinence (for delaying a pregnancy) works also as that kind of warning bell. I hear people say : ” NFP teaches respect, self-control, non genital love”. Well, yes and no. Like sex as a married couple. It teaches exactly what BOTH spouses do want to be taught. IF BOTH do want to learn how to love and be loved as Christ teaches, they’ll learn it together. If they don’t, they.ll onky learn how to manipulate one another, how to get only whay they want or (worse) to completely deny themselves to get out of trouble. It’s highway to abuse and hatred.
That’s why I’m always cautious about people who quote Eph 5, 21 or 1Co 5, 7 or other verses that specifically deal with sex without telling : “first, study and practice EVERYTHING ELSE Christ teaches.” For instance, the Sermon on the Mount or the 4 first chapters of Ephesians. You know, like respect one another, not lie, not be angry, not lust, not be prideful, be patient, be kind…
Then, only then, when you really are a Christian (and not just require your spouse to be one so you might sin while being constantly supported and forgiven …) , you may talk about sex.
That’s also why people are required to be grown up and healthy to get married …
Very well said!
Discouraging to see the comments section going downhill here on TLHV. Almost kept me from posting.
A couple weeks or months without sex for some of you… Try over a decade. And it’s not even the lack of sex that bothers me…it’s the lack of intimacy and affection. No hand holding. No cuddling. No kissing. Nothing. No physical touch. At all. Does anyone have any idea how crushing and debilitating it is to receive NO physical affection from your spouse for over a decade?
Maybe even WORSE than all that is not being able to communicate about it! It’s one thing to have no intimacy with the person I chose to commit my life to but it’s an entirely different thing to not even be able to talk about it.
There has been no porn or infidelity on my part. Certainly I’m far from the flawless spouse. My wife admits a past history of abuse. But she refuses help.
Can we try…”no”
How about we…”no”
Can we talk about…”no”
She says she has made it this far in life…so why open all that up now.
I have read this and several other blogs of Sheila’s peers many of whom are fantastic. (For almost 10 years I’ve read) Thoughtful, biblical, balanced. Noting has worked. I’m dying for connection and intimacy with my wife. Now I’m just dying on the vine. She on the other hand gets everything she needs and wants. Marriage. Stability. No intimacy.
I’m close to where the previous commenter is…just need to figure out how to shut my brain down or move on in a healthy way. Just don’t know how to do that.
I’m so sorry, Tyler. That sounds really, really suffocating and lonely.
Have you gone to see a licensed counselor? They may help you figure out how to get her involved in counseling too. It sounds like you both could really use it. The status quo definitely doesn’t sound healthy!
2 years of counseling with a highly rated and recommended counselor who if you ask me…seemed afraid to push back on the hard stuff.
Oh, I’m sorry. It can be really hard to find a counselor who really fits.
Tyler,
Have you asked the counselor to push back some? Or asked one-on-one why s/he isn’t pushing back? Sometimes counselors need help reading what you want, or may have a reason why s/he isn’t that would help you understand better. Not saying that’s the case, just trying to toss out an idea to consider. You situation sounds terribly difficult.
Tyler, I have nothing beneficial to add to this conversation. I just want you to know that I’ve been reading and I also feel bad for your situation.
Back in the day, when I was recovering from being in a bad marriage and frequented angry boards where hurt men and women were talking past each other, I came to the conclusion that there were a bunch of abusers, narcissists, or just plain lazy people who won’t even meet in the middle (of both genders)out there parading as Christian and hurting regular, mostly healthy, and wanting to improve spouses (of both genders). And on these boards the hurt spouses were taking their anger out on each other making it a gender thing when both are victims of the same thing in different genders.
Not saying that your wife is an abuser, narcissist, or just plain lazy. Perhaps just deeply tired or broken.
Anyway, all that to say, I appreciate you coming here and trying to figure it out and being open to talk. We obviously don’t know your wife’s side or what’s really going on inside her. But some of us do feel for your situation and hope that you can find a solution.
That sounds like a terrible way to live, Tyler. I’m so sorry your life has turned out so differently than you hoped or expected.
I’m not sure what is bothering you in the comments. If it’s that the comments seem anti-male, I guess I could see a sensitivity to that as a guy on this site. BUT if you could read the comments as coming from women who are struggling as much as you are – who have had their hopes and dreams for a loving marriage destroyed by men who refuse to act with kindness and generosity but also demand access to their bodies for sex – maybe you could see them as people who are hurting as much as you are.
Grace and peace to you.
One thing I would like to mention, my husband would probably be disappointed in my lack of affection and physical touch as well. A reason I have stopped the touch, etc., is that every single time I kiss, cuddle, touch, it is never enough. He always tries to take it to another level. A peck on the lips is taken to deep kissing, a hug is taken to a butt or breast grab, and pretty soon I am the one pulling back again, disappointing him. If every hug or kiss leads to the wife having to say “no” to more, she will stop everything, especially if she isn’t satisfied sexually.
Yes! This is very true and so important a dynamic for people to understand.
I’ve read other women stating the same thing. As a man I wonder if your husband would say the opposite as you in that a Kiss, hug, or touch never leads to sex. I know I’ve (mistakenly) thought my wife’s hug/kiss was an invitation to more, but that’s because she hardly ever initiates. I’ve felt that if I didn’t try to take it to the next level we might never have sex. How does a husband know when it should just be a kiss and when it could lead to more, especially if she has a responsive libido?
Do you find any value at all in kissing and hugging and nonsexual touching for their own sake, that is, even if they don’t lead to sex (or, what you perhaps actually mean, PIV).
If kissing and hugging and all touching always and must lead to PIV, then that effectively tells a woman to not do those things unless she’s prepared to go all the way. That’s why so many women sleep at the edge of the bed, lest a toe inadvertently touch her husband when she really just needs to sleep.
I hate to keep harping on this, but did you abstain from ALL physical contact before you married (and, presumably, also waited until after the wedding for sex)? Or did you both use those forms of touch for showing and receiving affection? Why should they not continue to be done to show and receive affection now, just because it’s morally acceptable to do more?
Perhaps your wife (and many other wives) would be more willing to return and even initiate kisses and hugs if women knew that there would be zero pressure from husbands to take it further. No guarantees, but isn’t it at least a possibility?
(And it may take a loooonnngggg time for a particular woman to feel comfortable and secure in such a pressure-less environment, perhaps as long as the duration of the entire marriage, or at least as long as the subtle pressure has been exerted by the husband. That’s because a woman wants to be loved for herself and not because she possesses a vagina.)
And when you add to the mix that sexual abuse always included unwanted touching, it’s very difficult to turn that off and “touching” all of a sudden becomes okay. No! I was taught that touching ALWAYS leads to sex. That’s the goal of every man. So I am very careful to NEVER send that signal to anyone. EVER!
@Clueless husband (feels cruel starting a comment with that but it might pop up somewhere that isn’t obviously a reply to you and you picked your pseudonym!) – are you able to talk openly with your wife about this sort of thing? If so, ask her!
My wife and I have a slightly similar dynamic. Touch is an important love language for both of us, but for my wife non-sexual touch is the main thing that makes her feel loved and for me sex is more important. The key thing for her is that she gets plenty of kissing, cuddling etc regardless of whether I’m in the mood so that she doesn’t feel it’s a quid pro quo. And if we have sex a few times in a short space of time and I’m worried she might not be getting what she needs, I just ask.
Hope that helps. Jo’s comment below was good too!
Bingo
My relationship too!
Hard to communicate this truth to him when all the blame is directed at me and my deficiencies!!
Though I but a spectator to your comment, I find it hard to believe your wife is getting what she wants… she may feel just as empty as you. There was definitely a breakdown along the way. Hurt. Lack of trust— porn isn’t the only thing that’ll do that. Are you a fault finder? Lacked encouraging words? If there’s a sense that she has to “live up to expectations “ but realizes she frequently fails, she may have retreated out of resentment, and she may not even realize it’s resentment.
Maybe it’s time to lay it all on line?
Are you willing to be completely vulnerable without blaming or shaming her? Will you beg her to help herself, since, after all, what she is carrying as a victim of abuse is a suffocating, dissociative burden? Can you understand what you are asking her to do is rip herself into shreds in the hopes that the pieces are there to put back together?
Are you willing, if she is, to start from zero and work through it all with her? It will take many more of your years. Trauma therapy is like being drowned and lit on fire and electrocuted at the same time. Can you be at the epicenter of that and hold her in open hands, enduring the ravages of her unraveling? Will you prove yourself safe as she is completely exposed? Are you willing to wait for the sexual intimacy you want if it takes another 10 years? Are you willing for it to take the rest of your lives to heal your marriage? Will you let her go if she finds during her journey she cannot stay with you?
What happens if you plead with her and she replies “I am unable to care enough about myself or you to try.” Will you honor her voice, separate and divorce?
It sounds like you are desperate and perhaps it’s time take a step in whatever direction you can manage for the both of you.
Wow the misandry started early this month. Usually it takes a week before the comments start men bashing. The commentator above lied to her husband for 11 years about enjoying sex, but the husband is the bad guy.
Well, it depends on what one means by “enjoying sex.”
When women are not taught that they ought to orgasm during sexual activity (and that PIV provides insufficient stimulation for about two-thirds of women to achieve orgasm), when women are taught that they don’t need sex the way men do, when women are taught that what they REALLY need from sex is the emotional closeness they get, then women will quite understandably claim to “enjoy” pleasureless penetration while their husbands clearly experience something the women aren’t remotely close to experiencing.
So in one sense, women are telling the truth. The problem is, women have been convinced that a few crumbs constitute a six-course feast. Once they know about the feast they’ve been denied at the hands of “Christian” teaching, I think they have the right to be a little ticked off.
Is it a coincidence that most of this teaching comes from men? 🤔🤔🤔
I was literally taught at church to be just like the Shulamite woman in the Song of Songs – enthusiastic, uninhibited and adventurous. And at the same time, I was also literally taught “don’t be preoccupied with the female orgasm.” “Your man is wired differently than you – he usually has to have an orgasm to have a satisfying encounter. With you, it might be more about love and closeness.” p129
Hot and Holy by Sam Laing
Friends and Lovers by Sam and Geri Laing
Wow, what a fabulous excuse for a husband to be sexually lazy.
I wonder if this kind of teaching might be why less than half of Christian wives orgasm most of the time … and why eighteen percent have NEVER orgasmed.
Naaaahhhhh.
Another quote from Hot & Holy by Sam Laing:
“Wives, when you imitate this example [of the Shulamite woman], you will turn your husband’s life into a paradise.” p. 39
🤢🤮
Are you aware that many ‘Christian’ (in quotes because I don’t think there is anything Christian about such teaching) marriage books encourage a wife to ‘act’ as if she’s enjoying sex even if she isn’t, because to do otherwise would be to ‘disrespect’ her husband? If a woman is raised to believe that Godly women always let their husbands think they are amazing lovers (even if they are terrible), it seems a little unfair to blame her for that. Maybe instead, blame the ‘Christian’ teachers who have told her this is the right, ‘submissive’ way to behave.
I’d heard those messages from time to time, but never put two and two together on how harmful the combination is.
The wife hates sex but thinks that saying she loves it (slash faking orgasms or whatever) is being helpful and loving rather than misleading. The husband is a terrible lover but thinks he’s great and that his wife feels loved whenever they have sex.
And you could easily have a marriage that’s completely miserable for the wife even while both partners think they’re being kind and loving. Add the real issues of pride and selfishness etc that every couple has to deal with and you’ve got a total mess.
Not my story, to be clear, but sure it’s been a part of some people’s stories in this thread. Which is so sad as (aside from being toxic in itself) the idea that women need to pretend enjoyment is completely unnecessary. Normal men (at least I think I’m normal in this) desperately want their wives to tell them what will make sex good for them, which obviously includes what doesn’t.
So, I have a few personal observations.
Women’s health, mental health and libido are complex and intimately intertwined.
Someone mentioned that, while dating, their spouse was very attentive and showed love in many ways. After they married, he thought love was shown thru sex. The attentiveness was significantly less. This can also happen as a marriage progresses… children are born and there is less time for the couple… jobs become more demanding or require longer hours and there is less time for the couple. It is very easy for sex to become something which gets forced into a busy schedule and for it to become mechanical and not intimate.
For women, there are hormonal cycles. Our menstrual cycle effects when we feel desire depending on the hormones. Hormonal birth control is commonly used. There is evidence that hormonal birth control can effect libido. Hormonal birth control does change the hormones and can effectively reduce libido. Hormones also effect mood and the brain… I recently learned that progesterone can increase depression and anxiety when a loved one became very ill on a progesterone medication prescribed for endometriosis. Hormones are different when we are pregnant… and I am nauseous and vomit for 9 months. Hormones are different when we are breastfeeding. I’m guessing that the hormones are different after each pregnancy and our physical bodies change with each pregnancy. And then, when we reach menopause, the hormones totally change again. Basically, what worked at 20 won’t work at 30, won’t work at 40, won’t work at 50.
This brings me to mental health issues. Depression and anxiety can cause a decrease in libido. Unfortunately anti-depressants can also cause a significant decrease in libido and can, in some cases, make it difficult or impossible to orgasm. From personal experience it is very discouraging when your partner takes substantial time and effort to cause you to orgasm but all you get is discomfort from excess rubbing but no orgasm. It’s a real turn off.
You suggest talking to a doctor or mental health professional. For years, the answer I got was to increase frequency and try harder. I asked my doctor, my gynaecologist, my psychologist and my psychiatrist. Admittedly, my psychiatrist changed my medication which helped libido but significantly increased my anxiety. I had to switch back.
To improve libido, I discontinued my antidepressants for 2 years. I got quite ill. I now know I caused significant difficulties for my teenage children because I relied on them for support when I frequently panicked. And sex didn’t improve.
When I had pain in my pelvis and back and also pain during sex, I spoke to my doctor. He sent me for tests and referred me to a gynaecologist. After more than 2 years of tests, I was finally referred to a pelvic floor physiotherapist. It took me some time to come to terms with seeing someone who would do physiotherapy on my insides. When I finally saw her, I had significant improvement after my first visit. I had a muscle imbalance in my pelvic floor and had to learn to relax the muscles on one side. And now, 5 years later, I knew she could help me with incontinence. The muscles are strong but uncoordinated.
I am reading The Great Sex Rescue. I have learned that my libido is responsive and that I have a hard time switching gears from my “to do list” to focusing on sex. It’s really hard for me to be in the moment. And if my kids are in the house, I am very self conscious about having sex because they might hear us. I also learned about the sexual response cycle. I can’t rush sex. I need cuddling and time to relax, then work my way, very slowly thru the cycle. If my partner dives in too quick and tries too hard, too soon, I just feel discomfort and get really turned off. So I need lots of time for sex. I am on antidepressants and probably will be for the rest of my life. I am sure that effects my response.
I see men commenting that women are withholding sex. I see men saying their wives used to love sex. I see men saying they feel unloved or hated because their wives don’t like sex. I am not a man but it seems like sex is easier and more consistent for men. I think our culture looks at sex as an easy and natural thing. But it’s very complex and effected by many things. And many interventions such as birth control and antidepressants can significantly alter sex response. Combine all of that with a culture which says sex is amazing all the time and you will have many women who are lost, feel like failures, feel neglected, feel disappointed, feel unloved and alone when sex just isn’t working.
Sheila… I think my post was too long and got moderated. Trying this way…
So, I have a few personal observations.
Women’s health, mental health and libido are complex and intimately intertwined.
Someone mentioned that, while dating, their spouse was very attentive and showed love in many ways. After they married, he thought love was shown thru sex. The attentiveness was significantly less. This can also happen as a marriage progresses… children are born and there is less time for the couple… jobs become more demanding or require longer hours and there is less time for the couple. It is very easy for sex to become something which gets forced into a busy schedule and for it to become mechanical and not intimate.
For women, there are hormonal cycles. Our menstrual cycle effects when we feel desire depending on the hormones. Hormonal birth control is commonly used. There is evidence that hormonal birth control can effect libido. Hormonal birth control does change the hormones and can effectively reduce libido. Hormones also effect mood and the brain… I recently learned that progesterone can increase depression and anxiety when a loved one became very ill on a progesterone medication prescribed for endometriosis. Hormones are different when we are pregnant… and I am nauseous and vomit for 9 months. Hormones are different when we are breastfeeding. I’m guessing that the hormones are different after each pregnancy and our physical bodies change with each pregnancy. And then, when we reach menopause, the hormones totally change again. Basically, what worked at 20 won’t work at 30, won’t work at 40, won’t work at 50.
Interesting article. Interesting comments. Coming from Christian wife “do your duty” as to sex teachings, my shelves are full of books that I have a sense to get rid of as I’m just finding out they come from an unbiblical standpoint/teaching, but not sure which authors/books to purge. Can anyone post a list of books and authors to steer clear of? I know the Pearls books, Love and Respect have been mentioned. Others? I fear I have many, many books on my shelves that were touted as being the way to do the Christian life, that I’m unsure about keeping now and should I pass them along to Goodwill (or burn them)!
You can download our rubric and scorecard of Christian resources here if you would find that helpful!
These could be an option…
https://sheilawraygregoire.com/shop/square-stickers/
Hello Sheila!
I have started to really like this site. It have had such a big impact to my porn addiction and also my relationship with my wife!
We have been in counseling and counselor suggested that sex should not step off from our marriage at any point, but now I think it is maybe good idea! My wife is really wondering what have happened to me and why I’m not interested in sex like before. Instead I have been really starting to enjoy our time together. No pressure from sex and it really helps her too!
So, at some point we are re-initiating our sex life not in hurry though. But when do we do it? Should I Been completely healed or what?
If there’s fellow husbands who have been trough this I’d like to hear your opinions as well!
I can’t speak from experience, but I would have thought taking your wife’s lead on that would be the golden rule.
Well done for recognising your problem and seeking the help you needed to start recovering.
Hi Shelia,
Thanks that you and your team are doing. It’s a ministry the church has needed for a long time. Not just in what you’re saying about sex and relationships but the way you’re all holding the church to a higher standard about research. I’ve been saying similar for the past 20 years and finally feels like others are listening. A number of your podcasts / blog posts have been hard listening / reading for me.
I’ve been married to a wonderful woman for the past 10 years however sex has always been difficult. Sadly her experience before marriage was being raped by a ‘Christian’ boyfriend several times. This has really impacted our sex live as understandably those events were horribly scaring for her.
I guess my question is how would you and your team respond to a guy who’s faithful, making sure intimacy where possible is great for her, putting in work to ensure the marriage is equal, but still isn’t getting mutually satisfying sex? I’ve tried talking to her several times over the years, brought numerous helpful books (including two of yours) and courses to help she won’t read and won’t engage on. She won’t go to events / conferences about it as “its too embarrassing.” She started seeing a counsellor through an organisation with a time limit with the promise of talking about our sexual difficulties. We’re approaching that limit and she has confirmed she has not mentioned and intends not to.
I’m trying to be a loving husband about this but am suffering soul crushing rejection almost every time we go to do something intimate as she will not touch me in any sexual way. She’ll happily use a toy to orgasm but wont let me touch her, give her oral, and PIV sex is off the table. I completely understand because of what happened to her that this may be deeply painful for her to go near and will stand with her through it, but her lack of engagement with trying to find any aspect of this to start working through has got me desperate.
Thinking this may be an arousal problem I’ve tried talking to her about it. My wife won’t let herself go through different arousal stages for reasons she won’t communicate. Sadly she has pretty much banned us kissing because “I don’t like it.” I’ve asked her to be specific about why but never got an answer beyond “I don’t like it.” When we dated she had no problems with kissing.
Over the course of our marriage I’ve tried calmly raising the whole area of our intimate life, firmly raising this with her, putting in writing what I’m feeling, and all the time emphasising how much I love her, and want our life to be mutual. I’m finding professional help myself because of the damage her rejection and refusal to engage with this has done to me. My hope and prayer is that this gets sorted but I’m honestly out of hope. Do you, your team, or anyone one reading have any pearls of wisdom I may not have thought of? Before anyone says “have you prayed about it.” yes.. very much yes. (Next person who suggests that to me may get asked “is the sky blue?”)
Any advice you’ve got would be greatly received.
I’m so sorry you both are going through this.
Have you read the response “tlh” gave to “Tyler”?
While healing from the horror of rape is theoretically possible, I can easily imagine it can look like climbing an awfully high mountain. And while living with it unhealed is also painful, such conditions are at least known and have become somewhat manageable. Doing what “tlh” suggests, with your wife ripping herself to shreds without knowing whether or not she can put herself back together again, might well look like jumping out of the frying pan and directly into the fire—without knowing if she’ll ever be subsequently able to get out of the fire.
Living with a known level and type of pain can therefore seem a much better plan than inducing lots of new and different pain that itself may never go away. Because if the new pain doesn’t go away, she has to come up with potentially all-new strategies for living with it, which itself may or may not be possible.
I’m glad you’re in therapy for yourself.
Again, so, so sorry.
I’m so sorry you’re suffering for something that isn’t your fault. It’s devastating and not fair. I don’t have experience with this, so I can’t offer any advice, but I would really like to hear what Sheila would say. She doesn’t usually come back to past posts to comment so your best bet to get an answer is to copy and paste this question on a new post, one that will come out this week.
I found these resources for you:
https://transformationoffice.mandela.ac.za/tme/media/Store/documents/Sexual%20Harrassment/A-man-s-guide-to-helping-a-rape-victim.pdf
https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/resources/RCS-003-Information-for-Partners-logos-WEB.pdf
(Also, reading my last statement, I feel like it sounds insensitive to your wife, b/c Jo R is right, you are both suffering. That first link I shared said you are a “secondary survivor” because this impacts you too.)
I hope you are able to find the help that you need.
Satanic Ritual Abuse and Sexual abuse here.
It’s difficult to explain the why but a door closes when triggered and even the possibility of abuse seems possible. The vigilance is real and the memories do not disappear.
My husband began reading these comments to me, which express so well the subject of so many previous conversations we’ve had. By the time he got through about half way, he got up and went into his “cave”. lol
Must have touched a nerve.
My husband and I are experiencing a sexless marriage because he has become so very selfish sexually. I won’t participate anymore since I am consistently deprived. It’s just not worth the mess. Of course, he blames me for this situation and refuses any responsibility for it. Consequently, he is not interested in doing anything on his part to fix it. I’m pretty sure we’re finished. This article addresses things the guys can do to mitigate things. My husband just wants me to grin and bear it while he snipes at me. I refuse.
Observations from a sex-hater (me). Sex is a high-stress, high tension, high anxiety event. It seems just mere body-poking as fingers tweak your nipples and treat the breasts like mounds of dough for bread. Then a bit of a rummage internally looking for ‘the spot’. Feeling idiotic and awkward and embarrassed lying there with no clothes on . The nasty smells are a turnoff as are the fluids. and Everyone looks better dressed and in business suits and dresses than naked. The sounds of the grunts are a turnoff, the obscene dirty talk, the stomach-churning fantasies. The bits of plastic (toys) they want to stick in you, the electronics (vibes). In the end you are left slimy, smelly and sore. Reminded of the sex each time you pee and it stings from the micro-tears at the vaginal entrance. Totally loathesome experience. Disgusting wants – oral, anal, grotesque positions. Cannot be enthusiastic in any form for this.
I am a man, 52 years old. I am married 18 years, to my wife aged 53, and we have 2 teenage boys. My wife is a very kind and caring person, and a great mother to our boys. However, my wife dislikes any intimate touching, or any process of trying to generate sexual excitement. I think my wife has never had an orgasm, either with me or in any scenario. Any suggestion of helping her towards such an event, have always been strongly resisted. I think a traditional irish catholic upbringing seems to have inculcated a mindset that sex is dirty and sinful, and certainly not fun or to be enjoyed. After many years of trying to keep some intimacy between us going, I have come to the inescapable conclusion that she actively does not want a sex life. I dont want (and think i can no longer tolerate) to be the person who has to badger her into physical intimacy…. it would appear not fair to her if she has no interest, or not fair to me to have to be pushy to get any. I cant enjoy it in any case, if this she is only just tolerating it. I honestly dont know where this will end up. I feel less and less “married” to my wife. I feel less and less connected to her, and am starting to imagine a future point where our un-intimate status leads to us accepting that we are effectively single again. I think not withstanding the lack of interest in sex, I fear my wife would be hugely psychologically negatively effected if our marriage ended.
“All of us–yes, even women!–were born with a sex drive.”
There are asexuals who have never felt that drive.