28 Comments

1. 

   Jo R on February 3, 2022 at 9:18 am

   An emotionless robot who asks for nothing… That’s a very accurate summary of what all these damaging books teach women they ought to be.

   It’s pretty obvious what these authors and pastors think a healthy marriage is… They’ve laid it out quite clearly: the husband gets all the sex he wants while choosing to do as much or as little adulting as he wants, and the wife gets to put up with whatever the husband decides, because God forbid—literally—that the wife dare to think that maybe something is not quite right.

   On the reader question, that woman actually has no community with her church. If she would not be believed, and she likely wouldn’t because the church would have to admit they chose a leader who shouldn’t have been in that position, then her church is not worth staying in in the first place.

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     Sheila Wray Gregoire on February 3, 2022 at 9:45 am

     I would totally agree with you about the reader question! The problem is that this woman doesn’t seem ready to leave her church.

     I would just recommend to any woman in this situation that she get out. Even if you feel like all your friends are at that church. What kind of friends are they really if they aren’t going to support you dealing with an unhealthy marriage? Do they really want your best? Or do they just want your participation in the community?

     I also was quite struck by what the interviewee said she was told to do–praise him even when he doesn’t show any praiseworthy behaviours; cook his favourite meals; give him more sex. Don’t complain. This is quite similar to a lot of advice given in Love & Respect or For Women Only. They would say they never meant it for abused women, but this woman didn’t realize she was being abused for almost two decades! And Emerson Eggerichs didn’t even recognize the signs of abuse when they were obvious in her letter. This needs to stop.

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       Jo R on February 3, 2022 at 10:02 am

       “What kind of friends are they really if they aren’t going to support you dealing with an unhealthy marriage?”

       First, they’re likely all drinking the kool-aid too. Second, if they did support her, now they’re “judging.” Can’t have that! Third, their own husbands would likely call them out for “meddling” and “gossiping.” Fourth, they’d probably risk their own excommunication to some degree and loss of “friends.”

       We haven’t been to physical church since March 2020, and we decided virtual church was a little too lacking in reality. As I’ve looked back over thirty-five years of being a Christian (I’m in my mid-50s), I’ve realized I’ve had almost no true friends at the various churches we’ve attended (three in three decades, one church change due to a cross-country move, one due to increasing, well, lack of Christian growth). We’ve had lots of superficial relationships, but the real indication was that we’d never been to anybody house. If you don’t even know where someone lives, how are you friends?

       And praising someone for nonexistent virtues sounds a whole lot like “bearing false witness.”

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         Sheila Wray Gregoire on February 3, 2022 at 10:32 am

         You never were inside anyone else’s house? Wow! That’s so sad. Did you ever have anyone inside your home?

         I honestly have had great friends from churches. Interestingly, though, we all met in harmful churches, and we all eventually stopped going there, but we’re all still friends!

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           Jo R on February 3, 2022 at 11:54 am

           Aside from committee meetings and Bible studies, no, I don’t think we were in anyone’s house from churches #2 and #3. Certainly not for a meal or just a social activity, oh yes, except for one Super Bowl party circa 2010. At church #1, we had quite a few friends we just generally hung out with.

           As for inviting people to our house, about half the time it was actually apartments, and hardly anyone ever came to us from church #1. Churches 2 and 3, no. Invites were always converted to be a meal out or to go their house instead. Shrug.

2. 

   Stefanie on February 3, 2022 at 12:09 pm

   “She wasn’t being crucified”

   It sounds like she was.
   Jesus says in Luke 9:23 to deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me.

   I get that self-denial is a part of the Christian life, but when he said those words, I don’t think Jesus was trying to describe your sex life with your husband.

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     Sheila Wray Gregoire on February 3, 2022 at 5:24 pm

     Exactly!

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3. 

   Mara R on February 3, 2022 at 1:31 pm

   Only ten minutes into the podcast.

   And, yup. Classic Narcissist. Targeting her, grooming her, using her.

   I was married to one for 30 years. Divorce was final a year ago.
   Narcissism is on a spectrum and mine wasn’t as bad as hers. The reason I stayed for so long was because he did have some redeeming qualities. He didn’t use the silent treatment until much later in the marriage. And at first, we were able to hash a few things out.

   Really relate to that “Does not keep a record of wrong” part. I did that for a while myself. But he kept record. He’s still keeping record.

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4. 

   Nathan on February 3, 2022 at 2:20 pm

   > > I also was quite struck by what the interviewee said she was
   > > told to do–praise him even when he doesn’t show any
   > > praiseworthy behaviors;

   Translation: The worse he acts, the more he gets rewarded.

   That does NOT go to a good place.

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5. 

   Lizzie on February 3, 2022 at 2:38 pm

   My story mimics the interviewee’s so much, silent treatment as punishment or to shut down accountability, the hateful scornful looks, sex every 72 hours, the secrets and coercion, even down to the X who uses Love & Respect to justify himself (count me among your 1,000). Like her, my heart knew things weren’t right, but my brain couldn’t make sense of it until I learned about narcissistic abuse, among other things. Now, the more I listen to your podcasts (love ’em; keep ’em coming!), the more I think E.E. is an abusive narcissist himself. Maybe not “clinical.” Yet so classic.

   Twisting truths; word salad; no accountability; stonewalls when upset; emotional reasoning. EE takes Gottman principles like “soft startup” and “stonewalling” and twists them to mean a woman should only says things that make her husband feel good about himself (like praising a nonexistent character quality) and that all men stonewall and women should just accept that.

   Shunning introspection; denying mistakes; eggshell ego; enraged when criticized. Gottman says tell truth in love (interesting that his research proves a truth in the Bible!) and EE twists that to say a women should not tell the truth if it might bruise her husband’s ego. But, instead of calling it lying, he creates a novel concept, a husband’s “need” for respect.

   Deflection; one-way relationships; lacks empathy. EE minimizes a husband’s bad behavior and takes away the wife’s right to hold him accountable by essentially saying that if the husband isn’t crucifying her, he’s not being that bad and, therefore, she has no right to complain. As for how a woman should proceed if she feels like she is being crucified, see above.

   EE says he is a Christian but I cannot see how his teachings are biblical in any relationship, let alone a covenant relationship like marriage.

   In my opinion, everything I’m hearing about EE makes him sound less and less like a Christian and more and more like a narcissist trying to dress up his own wolf thinking in Christian sheep clothing.

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   • 

     Sheila Wray Gregoire on February 3, 2022 at 5:26 pm

     I share your concerns about EE’s teachings. Definitely. Are you in a safer place now? I’m so sorry for what you endured. So sorry.

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       Lizzie on February 4, 2022 at 9:46 am

       Oh, thank you so much for asking! Yes, I am safe now! (and so, so, so much healthier and clearer!)

       In hopes that it might encourage someone else, here is the rest of my story:

       After decades together, I told my husband I wanted a divorce. He tried to strong arm me into staying by coercing a meeting with one of our pastors, who recommended a forever separation and said I would be removed from membership if I divorced. I knew my X’s behaviors were only getting worse and that forever separation would give him forever ability to do what he did. While it took a while to reconcile that I was being labeled the problem, eventually I did leave and I did divorce. I also took time off from church to heal and get my bearings.

       It took time, but God was faithful, fighting my battles, connecting me with safe people. I never was removed from membership. I had a couple key people stand up for me and eventually I was asked to come back to my church. My X still sends me nasty emails, which is traumatizing but getting less so. Turns out, my X also sends nasty emails to church leadership. He wants me to be “punished” and they won’t give in to his coercive tantrums, so he alternates between playing the victim and lashing out. In other words, he has shown them exactly the pattern of abuse I lived and that is so hard to describe unless experienced. As only He can, God has used the abuse I experienced to vindicate me.

       I understand not all women have my experience, but for me, not defending myself or trying to plead my case meant I didn’t play into the “irrational hysterical woman” narrative (the trope that writers like EE mock and they twist to justify their misogyny). With my silence, my X called himself out. And as only God can, He is redeeming my story for His glory and for the good of His people. Because of my situation and others, my church is across the board changing its stance on abuse, training staff, has even included a super capable (meaning, not a puppet) woman in executive leadership. They are working to be a safe church for women!

       I’m not saying all this to take credit (I can’t, I was a mess and God and others did it all), I share this to give thanks to God and to people like you, Sheila, who are courageously shedding light into these dark places. What you and your team are doing IS making a difference. You are being the very definition of Christian leadership, salt and light, iron sharpening iron, and a comfort to people in need.

       “And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto Him, “Master, rebuke thy disciples.” And [Jesus] answered and said unto them, “I tell you that if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.” Luke 19:39-41

       Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!

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         Sheila Wray Gregoire on February 4, 2022 at 9:54 am

         Oh, wow, Lizzie! That’s amazing how God went to battle for you! I love that your church has changed. I think many churches are just so naive and uneducated in this (though that’s not an excuse) and they need to wake up.

         I’m so honoured I could be part of your healing journey too!

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   • 

     Mara R on February 3, 2022 at 8:09 pm

     I came away with the same feeling, Lizzie, the feeling that EE is a Narcissist.
     Another thing Narcissists do is project onto others. I think EE takes projection to new levels.

     He projects on all men the elevated view he has of himself as “honorable”. He is not really honorable which we can see in his wet towels on the floor story and advice he gave to the lady in the above podcast interview. But he perceives himself as being honorable and an all around good guy. And he’s pretty sure most all guys are like him.

     And he projects on all women the low opinion he has of women, including his wife. He sees them only as objects to be used by their husbands. He sees no problem with erasing their humanness and pressing them into being emotionless robots who ask for nothing as Jo R mentioned above.

     He is a Narcissist who is fully committed to making more Narcissists.

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       Sheila Wray Gregoire on February 4, 2022 at 8:08 am

       I think you’re really onto something, Mara. He thinks he’s honorable–even though all of the examples he gives of his own marriage shows that he’s not. And from his anecdotes, he’s obviously surrounded by people with very bad marriages. So he projects all of that onto everybody. It’s sad.

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         Lizzie on February 4, 2022 at 10:16 am

         Yes, this!!! You both have captured the dynamic exactly!

         It’s a common tactic of narcissists to say, “I’m just a guy trying to do the right thing here”, even though there’s nothing he’s done that most people would call “right”, “good”, or even “decent.” Being “seen” as a good guy is so important to them even though they really have no concept of “how” to be a good guy. That’s what makes it gaslighting, him “saying” he’s good even though the reality is the opposite.

         After I said I wanted a divorce but before I moved out, I overheard my X giving his guy friends marriage advice. His, I’m just a guy, routine in action. So arrogant on his part considering I had told him I wanted a divorce (and no, EE, those aren’t just empty words women say when they’re upset) and that what my X was spouting were things I had read and tried to relay and none of which had he actually done in real life. It was surreal.

         And, Sheila, to see your words in print, “surrounded by people in bad marriages.” Oh my. I walked away from all the friends. That was hard at first. Now, I have healthy friends and I realize about once a week just how toxic all those so-called friends were. For my case, the “isolating” they talk about in abusive relationships didn’t mean that there were no friends, it meant all the friends were like him. When that’s all you experience, directly or indirectly, and all you hear is “that’s just the way things are”, it can really convince you that maybe that’s true.

         Both of these are reasons why I really love that you include Keith and Connor on your podcast. It has been so crucial for my healing and to level set how I see men to hear those guys, in their own calm and rational voices, articulate their beliefs. (I laughed out loud when Connor said if a guy is smart and capable enough to learn and complete — to satisfaction! — a task his boss assigned, surely he can remember not to use soap on one particular pan!)

         Um, no EE, not all men are “like that” and here’s Exhibits A and B to prove it!!!

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         • 

           Sheila Wray Gregoire on February 4, 2022 at 10:25 am

           I really enjoy having Keith and Connor too! What I found so interesting about that podcast two weeks ago was how Emerson Eggerichs glibly talked about how it’s normal for women to say, “I want a divorce!” That’s not normal. But if he thinks that’s normal, it makes me wonder: What is HIS normal like?

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           Mara R on February 4, 2022 at 12:59 pm

           I was going to write a blog post because I was afraid that this comment might get to long.
           But the flow is so good here. It would be jarring to move it somewhere else.

           The blog post was going to be called “Men Who Project Themselves” and point to this comment thread.

           Then I was going to mention listening to Dobson back in the day (yes, the FoF Dobson) talking about how it was always wrong for a man to hit a woman. But that he knew what it felt like to want to hit a woman. So he cautioned women about what to do to keep their husbands from wanting to hit them.

           This, also, is a man projecting himself on a situation. Instead of trying to understand a woman being bullied by her husband, he projects himself onto the abuser and understands HIM and why a man might hit or want to hit a woman. Dobson would never hit a woman. But he was far more willing to understand a man that might than the woman being abused.

           He was not able to feel empathy very far outside his own gender. He could only project his own marriage and experiences on another marriage and speak from the male point-of-view.

           If it’s a Christian marriage, then surely the husband is a Christian and not a predatory Narcissist who love bombed and groomed a Christian woman target in order to use her financially, emotionally, spiritually, sexually, and feed off of her energy until she was all used up.
           (Yes, the interviewee is very strong. The Narc wouldn’t have targeted her if she wasn’t.)

           Dobson was not that sort of man (at least I don’t think he was). But he projects himself onto all ‘Christian’ men forgetting the part in the Bible about wolves in sheep’s clothing.

           So I don’t think projecting is just a Narcissistic trait. But being devoted to strong gender roles and differences may set many/most men up to project in one way or another.

           [If this were a blog post rather than a comment, I would have probably brought up Piper too and a woman being smacked around for a night.]

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           Sheila Wray Gregoire on February 4, 2022 at 1:55 pm

           So good, Mara! This is it exactly.

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     SavedByGrace on September 10, 2022 at 9:32 am

     How did you get free, I see the patterns, and I am sickened my them. I’ve been sucked in over and over by the “nice guy” phase, which now sickens me, he realizes what he should be doing and does it long enough to pull me in again, its all so fake. We have 7 children and 25 years together, I don’t know where to go from here. I’ve heard all the “christian” arguments which pretty much boiled down to:
     Give him sex when he wants it
     Pray more
     Submit more

     It’s left me feeling rather burned by the church.

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6. 

   A2bbethany on February 3, 2022 at 2:46 pm

   Well yesterday on my mom app, I saw someone recommend mark grungor for a woman who was asking advice! I replied and said he was not a good person to get advice from and instead I highly recommended you! And she really needed to learn about mental load and get communicate with her husband for help.
   And I had a blunt conversation with my mom about how the marriage books they had, made me see their marriage….and all marriages. It felt good to finally say it, cause I’ve been holding back from most of it.

   And then we lost power! Due to the winter storm, my husband said that 80+% of our Memphis area is without power. So I’m praying it gets fixed soon. I might have to trade being able to flush the toilet for my parents county fireplace! A hard trade to make! Lol

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     Sheila Wray Gregoire on February 3, 2022 at 5:26 pm

     Good for you for speaking up! That’s amazing! (I hope you get power soon!)

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7. 

   Bre on February 3, 2022 at 6:33 pm

   The end comments with her nearly moved me to tears. Just with what Sheila has been talking about lately with compassion and love for victims of abuse…that’s what struck me in the comments for the initial post. So many people were posting loving things and praying for “the crying woman” and one that really stood out was someone suggesting that you dedicate your next book to her, like how you dedicated TGSR to “Aunt Matilda”. This is why compassion and love in this area matters…she NEVER heard of Sheila or the TLHV team but she still somehow found the post and decided to come forward because so many people were worried about her and loving on an anonymous person that they had never met. THIS is also why TLHV’s work and the work of others in this area…there are REAL PEOPLE out there behind these stories and stats. The difference between the response of Egrichs and his team to her story and the TLHV and other church-reform-in-the-area-of-sex-women-and-relationships groups is very stark and this is why it matters…there are hurting people out there that deserve love, support, and the freedom and life that Jesus promised. It just makes me so happy that she was able to escape and that you were able to be part of her journey. I agree; she’s strong and she reminds me a lot of my mother. My mother has never been abused, to my knowledge, but she was also a strong, loving single mom who trusted God.

   I also just wanted to thank you from the bottom of my heart. I’ve been inactive lately but, weirdly enough enough, you and TGSW has helped me so much in my relationship with my mother. My mother and I haven’t necessarily been abused by my (step)dad, but he’s very borderline. He’s so negative, angry, and dismissive of everyone and everything in general, and he lets it out at home. He loves us, but doesn’t get how much it hurts us or drives us crazy. It’s why I moved out, because such a negative environment wasn’t good for my mental health. Even a year ago, I don’t think I would have fully understood, but now I do. She’s given him a talking to and basically thrown down the gauntlet; if he isn’t going to change, she’s moving out. She’s not thinking divorce, but just needs some peace. We talked about it when I was home for the holidays and let her know I was behind her and thought she had to do what was best for her and give him consequences for his attitudes so he knew it was okay. I’ll still hang out with dad and visit him regardless, but I’ve realized that she needs to do what is best for her and and it doesn’t have to affect my love for or relationship with either parent because I’m an adult who can manage those relationships on my own. Without your work, I don’t think I would have been able to get to this point of supporting her, encouraging her to do this if it’s was necessary, and not being scared or worried about losing my parents. I probably just would have worried about losing my family and structure, not her and even dad’s well-being. I’ve actually talked about TGSR and my thoughts on men and relationships with her a lot, and even a bit with my dad, and they are both individually totally on board with me staying single and living my life because they see some of the same issues and want me to be happy and not hurt by any relationships. I just sincerely wanted to thank you because, even though I’m not really your target demographic, you’ve helped me reframe my mindset into something healthier and help support my mother.

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     Sheila Wray Gregoire on February 4, 2022 at 8:07 am

     Oh, Bre, it’s so wonderful to see the ripple effect! I think the reason that we’re having an effect outside of just the sex realm is that it’s all about emotional health. That’s what it is. Emotional health and fullness and wholeness and Jesus. And that (and Him!) applies everywhere. I really hope drawing boundaries helps your stepdad to get real about the things he needs to address!

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8. 

   Darcy Gustafson on February 4, 2022 at 3:41 pm

   This was a great podcast! Sad, but good to see the healing and hope. I am excited for the Good Girls/Guys Guides coming out!! I don’t seem to be able to click on the link to send in my receipts for my pre-orders. Can someone help?

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     Sheila Wray Gregoire on February 4, 2022 at 4:58 pm

     Sorry, Darcy! We’ll launch it all on Monday officially, but you can mail it right now to preorder@tolovehonorandvacuum.com. Sorry it took us longer to get our act together than I was hoping!

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9. 

   Healing on March 30, 2022 at 6:32 pm

   Highly disappointed to learn that Dave Ramsey endorses Emerson Eggerichs (and Love & Respect). We highly respect Mr. Ramsey and follow his financial philosophy. I knew he had Christian beliefs but not THOSE beliefs. Ugh.

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10. 

    Amy on August 23, 2022 at 6:08 am

    For personal reasons, I desperately want to believe that it’s okay for divorce to happen in cases of abuse, but the whole thing about adultery being the only biblical reason for divorce is all I know. Please tell me how it is biblically alright for this to happen.

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