At what point do we realize that something is terribly off with the way the evangelical church sees women?
Today, on the Start Your Engines men’s focus of the podcast for the last Thursday of the month, Keith talks about his manifesto from yesterday and encourages men to see what is happening and jump out of the boiling water.
He got pretty passionate about this!
Or, as always, you can watch on YouTube:
Timeline of the Podcast
0:10 Updates
2:50 Jumping out of the boiling water
16:00 The twittersphere discussions
22:00 Why Sheila criticizes
28:00 Research on remarriage
33:15 RQ: The tie breaker issue
44:00 Closing announcement–Launch team is starting next week!
Main Segment: How Did We Get to this Point in the Evangelical Church?
Whether it’s blaming women for men’s lust, or saying that men can’t do basic Christian things unless their wives go out of their way to encourage the guys (even though the wives are doing these basic things all the time), we’ve gotten to the point where we expect so little of men and so much of women.
And that naturally leads to excusing abuse.
Keith elaborates on his post, and you can hear his passion asking the church to get back to Jesus!
Research: Why do men remarry more than women after divorce?
Rebecca joins us as we look at research that shows that men are more likely to remarry after a divorce. We discuss how many women feel that life alone is actually easier, especially if they’re coming out of a traumatic marriage.
What should this teach us about how we’re doing marriage?
Reader Question: What if We’re at a Stalemate?
A woman writes in saying that she agrees with what I’ve been saying about submission, but she’s at a loss as to what to do when she and her husband arrive at a stalemate. She writes:
My husband is a good man, but slowly over several decades, we have gone from intense and passionate lovers, to barely even enjoying being roommates. Our different opinions on how the house should be, how the kids should be parented, etc. etc. has become a wall between us. He resents me for being strong and standing up when I believe something is wrong. He says I am not being a supportive wife and definitely not a helpmeet. I told him “being a helpmeet means HELPING! If I see you about to drive off a cliff I am not going to compliment what a good job you are are doing driving. I’m going to scream TURN NOW!”
However the problem that comes up, which your show failed to discuss and I am so hopeful you have advice… is what to do when we disagree and there isn’t really a compromise that can be reached? My mindset cannot give over the “there has to be a final say and a final person in charge.” Otherwise nothing gets done/changed. For example:
I want to take my daughter with me to a family funeral out of state. My husband says no. His reasons are valid. So are mine.
OR
I want to change the formal dining room into a quiet reading room (or some sort of room rather than formal dining), but husband says it stays a formal dining room (even though we never use it!). So either we argue or it stays.
How do we BOTH deprogram ourselves? We need examples of HOW to work things out in a healthy relationship (like you and your husband – I loved hearing BOTH sides of this issue!!!).
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Things Mentioned in This Podcast:
- Keith’s big manifesto post from yesterday
- The Great Sex Rescue
- The research study we quoted about women remarrying less than men
- Owen Strachan’s original tweet and The Gospel Coalition’s terrible reel
- Our two podcasts on headship–one where I talk about what I learned and one with Bruce Fleming
What do you think? Are stalemates more common if you believe men are the tie breaker? Why do women not remarry like men do? Let’s talk in the comments!
Sheila Wray Gregoire
Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
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I’ve been learning that sometimes you have to give ultimatums, for the good of everyone. Example:
My husband used to cycle unhealthily in his mental health and kept having suicidal turns. I finally told him I was done and he was talking to someone. I gave him 2 weeks to decide who, and kept on him til he did.
Even though he’s not fully cured, it has stopped the cycle and he seemed to have gotten much better! I’m glad I finally decided to make a big deal out of it. (I realized I was starting to act abused in that I kept it secret from everyone. No more!)
For her, the cost of not forcing the conversation about equal rights in the marriage, is the marriage. From passionate lover’s to resentful roommates, nobody is winning. Forcing a showdown ends their suffering, one way or another.
Eggerichs doesn’t see the story of the woman crying in the shower before giving her husband duty sex and then simply choose to not care about her. Oh no, he’s MUCH worse. He holds her up as an example for women to emulate and for men to expect from their own wives. 🙄🙄🙄 😱 😱 😱
Yep, he calls her a goldmine.
What kind of a sick person actually thinks that this is what all men want? A wife that sobs in despair at the thought of having sex with him.
How to say you are evil without actually saying you are evil.
It’s one thing to say “Wives must always be in submission to their husbands”. It’s much worse to add “Sacrifice yourself constantly to satisfy their tiniest whims, even at the expense of your health, safety and well being”.
At the end of the podcast, talking about the tie-breaker thing, it was said that this teaching produces bad fruit. This is, of course, correct.
But you know that the teachers of this bad teaching won’t be able to see this. They ‘know’ their teaching is biblical. God says it, they believe it, that settles it. (Even though we know that God doesn’t really say that.)
I had a sad thought when the bad fruit of this teaching was pointed out. I could see the defenders of this false teaching saying that, no, the bad fruit is the result of feminism and the bad fruit is being caused by women refusing to submit like they are supposed to. Just like they blame women for not respecting their husbands enough in order to the husbands to engage in the risky business of reading their Bibles.
Yes, we got in a conversation with a guy last year who was saying that before women worked outside the home they were easier to get to submit, and so the bad fruit of feminism was that women no longer felt like they were dependent on men. It’s like–how is that bad fruit?
And at the beginning of the podcast, when Keith was pointing out how stupid it was to blame women for men not reading their Bibles, my mind thought back to what I heard about the age of burning witches.
Some of those witches were blamed and burned because of the lust of men. The man committed adultery. But it wasn’t his fault. She bewitched him. Just like it wasn’t that shooter’s fault that he saw those Asian women as objects that tempted him. He didn’t feel compelled to shoot himself. Why should he? He wasn’t to blame. They were to blame because they existed.
Feel free to delete this comment if it is too dark. I’m feeling a bit dark today thinking about article blaming wives for husbands that won’t read their Bibles.
I hope it’s true that the tide is turning and I hope that article gets a lot of push back.
I hope it does too!
I know your podcast and the manifesto say the idea of having a tie breaker doesn’t happen often but it does happen and it’s so hard. This will be long but maybe worth it. My husband is somewhat of an anomaly. In 2016 he was in a severe accident at work and suffered a severe traumatic brain Injury, broken bones and multiple other issues. Between a month long ICU stay and months in TBI rehab he was in the hospital for 6 months (away from home) and recovering for two years, honestly still recovering 6 years later as brain injury never really heals it just changes you! Fast forward 3 years and my husband was diagnosed with a relapse of leukemia after having been in remission for 20 years. Long story short we had to
Ship off to Seattle for six months (from Alaska) for a bone marrow transplant where he nearly died again. Did I mention we have 4 children? I sat by his Side praying life into him both times and would do it all over again but with that said life is different. I share all of that so you know my husband is not the same person I married and truthfully neither am I after all we’ve been through. We lost all relationship with his family during all of this trauma due to their inability to support me. My family lives thousands of miles away…….anyway, Legally disabled, unable to work a “real” job my husband decided to create his own scenario and has all the ideas for building this business that he wants me to take part in but I ultimately for so many reasons, it would be impossible to list them all I do not want to do and I’m not even sure we can actually do. He wants it, I don’t but he’s gonna do it and I just either have to follow along or consistently fight and argue about it or give up what I feel is right or what I want. It has literally been at the head of tearing our marriage apart. We don’t communicate, to be honest I don’t feel like I even like him many days, we’ve had a few good conversations but then it’s back to me feeling like I get no say in our life. What does a wife do? Do I just suck it up and follow along with a cheerful heart? I feel like it’s a huge impass we are at and it comes down to one person is right and the other isn’t and who is going to win. There shouldn’t be losers in a marriage but yet I feel like I’m losing all the time. How do you deal with these situations. Most recently I’ve just been praying so fervently that the Lord would be clear on His will in this situation. I seriously need a lightening bolt moment. 🙁
Oh, Angela, what a lot of stress you’ve been through! And to have no family support either. I’m so, so sorry. Do you guys have mentors in your life or anything? Anyone that you could both talk to?
I just want to offer you some words of encouragement. Your marriage and life have been put through the fire! I’m very impressed that you are still moving forward.
The mental health guy I follow, would suggest therapy, Simply to decompress. Because you’ve likely been in a sort of survival mode for a long period. I think doing that, might help resolve the conflict around your husband’s dream business. But I’m just a random stranger, trying to encourage and give something slightly useful.
Love Keith’s passion on this!
He’s right about the original Hebrew word for help – ezer. It’s completely different from the Hebrew word for a servant. The full phrase “ezer k’negdo” is literally translated as “help opposite”. Combined with the idea that “it is not good for the human to be alone” and there was no suitable helper in the animal kingdom suggests that this wasn’t just about wanting a companion or a subservient assistant. Rather, this seems to be about not just making decisions and ruling alone, since there is value in having discussion and the whole process of doing things in a cooperative way, and not just being selfish.
To add to this, I was taught that the first human (ha-adam in Hebrew) would have had all of the traits to be in the image of God, and that the creation of woman was more accurately seen as the splitting of ha-adam into two halves (the Hebrew word often translated as rib could also be translated as side) – the man (ish in Hebrew, which is used for the first time AFTER the creation of woman) and the woman (isha). So, both man and woman, as two halves of a whole, come together and the resulting whole is in the image of God.
When it comes to making decisions in a healthy egalitarian marriage, then, we start with the idea neither of us should be imposing our will on the other and that we should be working together because both of us have something to contribute and our different personality traits are meant to complement each other so the combination reflects God. In my marriage, I compare my husband to the gas and myself to the brake pedal in a car – very different strengths and styles, but you need both to work in a coordinated way in order to get where you want to go.
So, it isn’t a power struggle. Neither of us wants to “win” in a way that defeats the other person or makes them unhappy with the outcome. We just keep working on things, listening to each other and coming up with solutions that work for everyone. It took a few years for us to find our current house, because we both needed to be happy with the move. Once a decision in made, though, it becomes OUR decision. There was a tense time a few weeks after our move, when we were in the middle of a massive renovation that went over time and over budget, we were sleeping in my inlaws basement and the line of credit was maxxed out, where my husband started to panic. I was able to reassure him that I had been on board with the move too, and knew that we would get through it.
That’s lovely, Cynthia!
> > They ‘know’ their teaching is biblical. God says it, they believe it, that settles it.
More often, it’s really “somebody else TOLD me that God said it”, and they just accept it without really looking themselves.
> > Feel free to delete this comment if it is too dark.
Not too dark. Blaming one person for the sins of another is simply wrong. “The devil made me do it” is an age old excuse that must be battled against at all turns.
And they preface their “biblical” teaching with “It’s a sin if you don’t follow me on this.”
Which puts us—especially women who are so directly affected—straight into the realm of being spiritually abused. Such “teachers” have a lot to answer for.
“More often, it’s really ‘somebody else TOLD me that God said it’, and they just accept it without really looking themselves.”
And what happens when Bible translators put their theological thumbs on the scale and make “translation choices” that lean toward or flat-out endorse (or enforce????) their own doctrinal biases? 🤔🤔🤔
I’d say you get the current state of the evangelical church in the US.
CONFESSION (Or maybe Emerson Eggerichs made me do it)
Our cat knocked over a bowl of water today. I grabbed a big towel and mopped it all up, then I THREW THE TOWEL ON THE CARPET! (see Emerson and wet towels on the bed).
Mrs. Nathan pointed this out, and I took the towel outside, wrung it out, and hung it on our outside chair to dry. Then I dried the damp spot with another towel (which I also placed outside to dry).
Funny thing: At no time did I feel disrespected by Mrs. Nathan nor was my masculinity threatened.
Awesome story! Mildew stains are permanent and carpet is expensive.
HAHA!
This couple that can’t agree on whether the wife can take her daughter with her to a family funeral, or repurpose a room that ISN’T BEING USED– she says they both have valid points.
No they don’t!
It is simply not valid to insist that a formal dining room that ISN’T BEING USED must stay as a formal dining room. That’s truly illogical.
Him arguing that she cannot bring her own child to an important family gathering, the funeral of a loved one, is also ridiculous.
He is controlling, plain and simple.
They don’t need a tie breaker, they both need licensed therapists. She definitely needs to see one by herself to try and figure out why she thinks this dynamic is acceptable.
Yes, this is very likely true.
I think his response shows that he is hung up on seeing this as a threat to his authority. Like a lot of disputes that I see with my divorce clients, this isn’t really about the actual issues. It’s about a power struggle.
When you establish from the start that neither spouse will make big decisions unilaterally or pressure the other person to do something they are not happy about, and that each will listen and care about the perspective of the other person and they will work together to reach a decision, you take out a lot of what is fueling the fight and allow people to work cooperatively.
For example, what are their real interests and concerns? If he is worried about resale value, maybe they could just make some changes with furniture that could be quickly switched back if they ever sold the house. If he wants to be able to have dinner guests, maybe having folding chairs and a table available would work. If the concern with the funeral was a COVID surge, they could talk about risk factors and getting N95 masks, etc.
The past 20 years have been so difficult being married. 2 years ago, I finally broke emotionally and moved into our guestroom where I still am because, while my husband seems sincere in wanting to improve and change, he does not. He has been seeing a therapist for 1.5 years now and I’m patiently waiting for things to change (not “perfection” but enough change to make this marriage salvageable) but he has an wide array of issues to deal with. I know that, whether this marriage ends in divorce or him passing away before me down the line, I will not get married again. It is not worth it.
I want to think there are plenty of good Christian men out there but it is exhausting to even think about having to slog through looking for red flags, etc. Emotionally healthier to go through life alone rather than deal with someone who wants to blame me for their sin. Easier than trying to find the unicorns that actually don’t want to blame women for their own sin areas. Doing life alone, I could use my energy serving God really well instead of squandering it by “raising” a husband in the way he should go.
As for the tiebreaker thing- I wonder if there is a greater occurrence of men going against what his wife wants (like an oppositional-defiant child) if his work or other situations have taken away a bit of his power- he lost a vote in a meeting, he got passed over for a promotion, etc. Just a thought.
Really interesting, Nellie. I’m so sorry that your husband isn’t showing more growth. I understand not wanting to marry again, should you find yourself alone.
“He resents me for being strong and standing up when I believe something is wrong.”
Sadly, I’ve been there. Two things helped me get out of this very not helpful mindset:
1. Realizing that if one of us is suffering from something, it is a priority to fix that thing.
2. Realizing that if one of us wants to change the status quo, he or she probably has a good reason to want that change, since humans rarely want change.
The big thing for me was: I realized that my wife had always been doing those two things for me. So, by doing them for her, I was not making an unfair sacrifice, I was just returning a favor she had always been giving me.
It is wonderful that you have come to this place. Stories like this give me hope.
Unfortunately, there are prevalent teachings out there using Genesis 3 as the supporting scripture that women are always out to “usurp” their husband’s authority and that husbands must always make sure this doesn’t happen or the Gospel will be compromised. One of the founders or main speakers for the old Promise Keepers movement taught this.
And it’s teachings like this that make it hard for men to see the boiling pot that they are in.
I’ve only now had a chance to listen to the podcast and had the thought that, basically, Eggerich and co’s marriage teaching boils down to how men can get sex without needing to be a great lover.
Yep, I totally agree!
Finding out women are less likely to remarry doesn’t surprise me at all. When I was about 8 years old, I asked each of my parents if they would remarry if the other died. My dad’s answer was in the ball field of “Heck, yeah!” My mom said, “I would probably date, but not get married.” When I asked why, she said “When you’re dating, the man brings you flowers and takes you out to dinner. When you’re married, you have to cook him dinner and do his laundry.” I started crying and told her that Daddy said he would remarry if she died. She hugged me and said, “Oh, Sara. I would want your Daddy to remarry. He needs someone to take care of him.” This was over 30 years ago, but judging from the statistics, it seems many women still feel the same way about remarriage. It makes me sad. I love my dad, but I wish she had been able to say something like, “Your dad is such a great husband I can’t ever imagine anyone being as great as him.”
Hi Sheila! I’ve recently started listening to your podcast, and I love it! However I’ve been frustrated by the fact that there is no search function on your blog. Blog entries are often referenced in podcast episodes but I have a lot of trouble finding them, especially if they date back to 2019 or so. I try using Google but it doesn’t work so well either. Please keep this in mind the next time you revamp your website!
We’ve got the search bar right on the top in the new version! And it will be right there for mobile as well! Connor’s working really hard to have it ready soon. 🙂