There’s a very line between way TMI and just sharing educational information.
And in today’s Start Your Engines Podcast (we like to take the last Thursday of every month and dedicate it to a podcast that men would be interested in as well), we try to show how men and women may approach sex information differently.
And how there’s a serious creepy factor for many women that we all need to understand a little bit better!
Because, seriously, people–like I always say, you shouldn’t say “a woman’s wetness” when you can just say “lubrication!”
Okay, let’s jump in:
(And by the way–the baby’s not here yet! We mentioned she may have arrived, but so far–we’re still waiting!)
Or, as always, you can watch on YouTube:
Timeline of the Podcast
1:00 How to be sex positive without being creepy!
3:10 Content warnings
5:00 What is up with the weird stuff in these books?
8:10 How to tell the difference between pornagraphic language and sex positivity
16:30 We need to be careful how we speak about our spouse in books
24:45 Don’t throw out modesty along with shame
26:00 How to be explicit, but not creepy
34:15 Sheila’s personal rule for writing sex books
41:30 Keith dicusses what it means to be a sexually confident man
45:30 Noticing someone is attractive does not make you gross
56:30 Some encouragement!
Main Segment: Here’s How Not to Be Creepy
It’s very important that pastors and authors learn how to talk about sex in an open, sex-positive, non-shaming way–without crossing the line into creepy, erotic, or objectifying.
Rebecca and I looked at several passages from Every Man’s Battle by Steve Arterburn, Married Sex by Gary Thomas and Deb Fileta, and several passages from Sheet Music by Kevin Leman, to see how explicit and clinical can cross over into erotic and creepy pretty easily. Then we read an excerpt from His Needs Her Needs (which I normally don’t like) to show how they actually did this quite clinically and well.
A few things we covered:
Don’t talk about women primarily in terms of their body parts
Even though we’re writing about sex, make sure you don’t talk about women only in terms of sex or their body parts. Every Man’s Battle was especially horrible with this!
Don’t use emotional language when describing sex acts
When you use emotional language, you ask someone to experience something with you. So instead of just explaining or teaching, you’re now entering into the experience with them–and that gets creepy. So don’t talk about how to “Mr. Happy likes to be licked” when describing oral sex, for instance.
We gave quite a few examples to help people understand the difference!
Don’t objectify your spouse
Even though Kevin Leman often crossed creepy lines in Sheet Music, he didn’t talk about his own particular wife. What we found distressing in Married Sex is how much Gary Thomas spoke explicitly about his wife. We only gave two examples here (there were plenty more), but it isn’t appropriate to talk about your spouse’s body parts or what they do when they reach orgasm, because it invites people to picture your spouse in a sexual way. That’s never appropriate–even if your spouse consents.
It also inserts into the Christian culture the idea that it’s okay to talk about your wife sexually to other men (and he even insinuates that if she gives a good enough hand job, a husband will want to brag to his friends–again, not appropriate).
Don’t write erotica
We read a segment from Married Sex (don’t worry, we gave a warning) that is simply erotica. There’s not even any instructional value, because Rebecca and I can’t even agree on what sexual act is being described. It’s just for titillation’s sake. That’s a problem, because readers aren’t expecting it in a Christian book, so it can feel like a violation.
Reader Question: Is it okay to be hurt that my husband finds other women attractive?
In response to Keith’s amazing article this week on the 4 characteristics of a sexually confident man, a woman wanted to know more about the difference between noticing and lusting. If her husband is getting over a porn addiction, isn’t it okay for her to want him to act in a trustworthy manner? And is there a difference between being sexually attractED and sexually attractIVE?
This is really tricky, especially where betrayal trauma is involved. Keith and I tried to dissect this a little more.
The Great Sex Rescue
Changing the conversation about sex & marriage in the evangelical church.
What if you’re NOT the problem with your sex life?
What if the things that you’ve been taught have messed things up–and what if there’s a way to escape these messages?
Welcome to the Great Sex Rescue.
Things Mentioned in This Podcast:
- Thanks to our sponsor Femallay! Check out their vaginal melts, and my post on how your vagina changes as you age
- Our Patreon–support us for as little as $5 a month and get access to our unfiltered podcasts and our private Facebook group (which is really active!)
- The Great Sex Rescue–Chapters 5 and 6 cover the lust issue and porn issue, and try to do so in a non-shaming way, focused on actual research
- Our Sexy Dares
- The Intimately Us App
- Our Orgasm Course
- Keith’s post on sexually confident men
- Our podcast with Marc Alan Schelske about emotional maturity
- Andrew Bauman’s post about the pornographic style of relating
Let us know–do you agree with the difference between sex positivity and creepiness? Where would you draw the line? Let’s talk in the comments!
Sheila Wray Gregoire
Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
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It frustrates me SOOOOO much that so many Christian writers can’t grasp the difference between being explicit and being creepy. When I heard about the Thomas/Fileta book first, I was really looking forward to it, as some of Gary Thomas’ previous writing has been very helpful. But I was horrified reading some of the US reviews (it wasn’t released in the UK for a few months after), especially seeing some of the screen shots. I’ve seen some people very graciously commenting on social media, asking him to realise that he’s gone too far, and he just dismisses them by implying that not everyone can cope with ‘explicit information’. But there is a huge difference between explicit information and explicit description that doesn’t actually provide any information (I’m glad I’m not the only one who didn’t have any idea what the whole ‘headboard’ story was about!)
Pre-marriage, I received a booklet published by an auto-immune research/support charity, which gave explicit information on intercourse for people with joint pain/limited mobility. It listed various sexual positions (illustrated by stick figures in red & blue, so it was clear which person was which without being too graphic), commenting on which ones were easiest/hardest depending on which part of the body had pain, and suggesting adaptations. It was INCREDIBLY detailed, but totally non creepy, because it used clinical, factual language. I read it before our wedding, and felt educated & reassured without being remotely ‘turned on’. Compare that to the example from Married Sex that you gave, which is full of descriptive and emotive language, obviously designed to ‘get us going’ but giving no factual information whatsoever.
If a secular organization can provide clear, factual, explicit-but-not-creepy information on how to have a good sex life, WHY ON EARTH IS IT SO HARD FOR CHRISTIAN AUTHORS?!!! We should be doing better than the world, not worse. Thank you Sheila for being one of the few who manage to get the right balance.
Exactly! The aim should be to educate, empower, and put people at ease–not make them uncomfortable or try to arouse them. Very different!
My memory of reading through the “every man’s battle” as a young teen, was faint. I came away with the question, “why must men exist if they’re really like this?” What’s the point of half of mankind and how badly they relate to my half? And I was also freaked out even more from my brother-in-law. Though I don’t know why that book made me think of him. (Im thinking he’s the only guy I know who’d go to ballgames with a wife or at all)
And that jogger story you read? I don’t remember it ever occurring to me that it was a real story. Or if it was, it was a freak accident, over exaggerated kind story someone told the author.
Also in early marriage, my husband had a conversation he told me about, with his brother-in-law about sex. He suggested a sex blog for my husband to read and I instantly got uncomfortable and scared. I was assuming that if this happens again, they’re probably discussing our sex life.
I told my husband I didn’t want him talking to guys about it and I’d be doing the learning and research. So we wouldn’t go over my comfort level. Small over reaction, but the thought of anyone knowing details about it…..kinda my worst nightmare!
(In general terms, I’ll occasionally talk to my sister-in-law, but I don’t want to cross lines.)
Yes, many women in our focus groups told us that Every Man’s Battle made them terrified of men. Interestingly in the book itself the authors admit that their own wives are horrified by the message, and say that if they had known this about men, they never would have married.
I’m so glad I never read Every Man’s Battle and I’m sure if I did, I would probably choose to remain single. Steve Arterburn was the most recent guest speaker at Saddleback Church (a megachurch in California). I watch their services online and was very disappointed that they let him speak now that I know what he wrote in his book. Years ago, I read a book he wrote about healing and liked that book. This is so troubling that these authors can write good books on other topics, but are just plain creepy when it comes to writing books about sex. I’m just not sure what to think about their character anymore.
This was so good, you’ve articulated why so many of us have felt that the Christian men in our lives and on our bookshelves were really creepy, but didn’t dare speak out against these “great men of God,” not only because we knew the cost would be too high, but also because we didn’t have the language for it.
The editors at Zondervan really need to read this blog post!
I see these male authors giving women sex hype-up talks in their books as putting themselves in the role of porno director and, while I understand that Sheila doesn’t want to engage in personal attacks, I believe someone should dare to speak of these authors’ pornographic style of relating (like Andrew Bauman, though I don’t know if he refers to Gary Thomas personally, but we do now have the tools to diagnose PSR and we should call it out when we see it in Christian sex manuals). I was so glad to hear Rebecca point out that pillow-biting is a trope in porn. Another too personal angle I’m daring to take: Gary’s wife, since he describes her in pornographic terms. I asked in response to a previous blog if anyone else wonders if she’s OK and since then I’ve become even more concerned by this line in Married Sex: “Lisa lives with a lot of pain.” Back to Bauman’s article on PSR, women who put up with decades of PSR are prone to inexplicable aches and pains that cease as soon as they get out.
Regarding the Thomas-Leman connection, yes, they’re friends and they borrow material from one another. On p. 82 of Married Sex Gary mentions a “friend” who likes to describe himself as a “beached whale,” which is exactly what Kevin does on p. 229 of Sheet Music. Also, Leman’s injunction that women give hand and blow jobs during periods and pregnancy? Like with Eggerich, Gary delivers the same message a bit softer, right before his “wetness” reference: “It [hand jobs] doesn’t happen that often in their marriage, but when a heavy period, pregnancy, or post-birth situation makes penetrative intercourse problematic, Alicia is surprised at how grateful Aaron always seems.”
And now if I may engage in a bit of conspiracy theory, has anyone else wondered if Married Sex was written in direct response to The Great Sex Rescue? Some references seem very direct and I also think that Gary knew Sheila had changed the landscape so much that he had to partner with an actual therapist (even better a female one) to get more credibility and claim that he relies on science too. I find it especially ironic when he blames Satan for the bad sex evangelicals are having (“If sex is one of God’s greatest gifts to us, you can be sure it is one of Satan’s favorite targets to shoot at to ruing a marriage.”), when it’s books like his and his buddies’ that have been ruining evangelical sex lives for decades.
Interesting observations, Andrea!
So, is “Mr. Happy” Kevin Leman’s pet nickname he uses with his wife? Or is this his preferred phrase as opposed to, oh, say, the technical term “penis”? If it’s the former, eeewww, gross, thanks for putting THAT in all his readers’ minds. If it’s the latter, he’s just one more author who treats women like children or, perhaps worse, unable to deal with the reality of proper terminology because women are “too delicate” to deal with such things head on (pun intended???).
Perhaps he (and other male authors) forget that it’s WOMEN who deal with monthly bleeding and with childbirth, and all too often WOMEN are the ones cleaning up everybody else’s bodily fluids. So thanks, but we’re not as delicate as to be unable to use the words “penis” and “clitoris.”
Yes, he also refers to the clitoris as “that tender little friend.” We did a focus group where we read women the lines where Leman refers to penises and clitorises like that, and they mostly all said it was very infantilizing. We talk about it in a call out box in The Great Sex Rescue, I think in chapter 4.
I wonder if these evangelical male authors think we’re like children. We’re not “adult” enough to say or hear the anatomically correct terms for our sex organs. A lot of parents will do that with their young children because I guess they think it’s weird to call them what they really are. My parents told us what the real words are for our body parts. If we ever said them out loud in front of other kids on the playground, the teacher told us these were “dirty” words. So of course, I grew up thinking that “penis” and “vagina” were “dirty” words. This must be an evangelical mindset. I wasn’t raised in church, so I didn’t realize this.
The idea of a little girl innocently using the word clitoris in front of a teacher at school made me laugh!
It reminds me of the time my then-4 year old niece drew a picture of a monster who was on her period, complete with blood coming out of her “vachina.” All us siblings had a great laugh about it but our dad was shocked and uncomfortable that she knew all that!
IMO, teach kids the facts when they’re young and they will be a lot more confident in their own bodies and respectful of others’ when they’re older.
I agree that children need to know the facts about their bodies. They should know the anatomically correct words for their body parts. This is the advice my mom gave to a younger coworker. When this coworker did tell her daughters the correct words for their privates, one of the girls thought that vagina was a “cute word.” I got a chuckle out of that.
It’s also really important to teach kids factually to protect them. I have a friend who has worked with kids who’ve been victims of sexual abuse, and she is passionate about this. She says that kids who have been taught the correct names for their anatomy are much less vulnerable to abuse – because they don’t feel that parts of their body are shameful, they have no issues with telling a trusted adult if someone has touched them inappropriately or with shouting at the person who is doing it. Also, she said they have had cases lost in court because the child was literally incapable of describing what had happened – they’d been taught that it was wrong to touch or point to certain parts of their bodies in front of others and that they must refer to them by extremely euphemistic names. Her kids get taught the proper names for body parts almost as soon as they can talk.
Oh. My. Gosh. EMB story: I do believe part of his point in telling that story pornographically was to make his readers, male and female, hate the jogger. He the victim, her the perpetrator. While he may own his wolf-eyes, he is still blaming her and her body parts.
MS story: I wish I skipped ahead. That was sick-in-my-gut feeling listening to that, even read by Rebecca with disdain in her voice, it felt truly icky. I admit, I did sense an arousal from it, but an uncomfortable one, a non-consensual one, a really grossed out violated feeling.
When I was 19, I came across some Playboys and looked through them out of morbid curiosity since I was so sheltered and had such little understanding of sex and the attraction of porn. It was very harmful, but this story in MS is exactly like the stories in the back of Playboy, or in Cosmo, or on adult pages. This story is NOT safe.
Also, Gary’s caveat on his blog is totally gross. So, voyerism and erotica are ok so long as you’re married and reading his book? Women struggling with arousal in marriage who get aroused by Gary’s book and think it has improved their marriages are being lied to. This is little different from watching porn to get aroused so you can be with your husband. Major red flag if you can’t be aroused start to finish by your spouse.
Yes, that was my feeling with the EMB story – by describing her body and what she was wearing, he was really trying to blame her for his behaviour – if she hadn’t been daring to exercise in gym clothes in front of him, he would never have been tempted, etc, etc, etc…
And with you on the MS one too – the only thing I want to ‘get me going’ is my husband – NOT reading anecdotes of other couples having sex. I mean – what is the difference between that and watching a sex scene on film?!!
Ok, RE: noticing someone is attractive. I used to get very upset that my husband found other women attractive. He didn’t get all weird and creepy. He didn’t rubberneck, but I was hyper vigilant and I would see when his eyes would register on someone. Or he, thinking I was a mature adult woman, would share something like, “Wow, country singer so and so looks stunning at the award show.” It would destroy me inside. I would get sick over lingerie posters in the store, or bikini pics in the weekly box store flyers that came in the newspapers. Like physically ill. I almost passed out when he was watching a TV show that had some relatively scantily clad women in it. He didn’t even remember the scene!! He was more interested in the overall story line! He did stop watching it since I was so distressed.
But, the root of all that trauma and distress was my own very low self-esteem and outright jealousy, fear, and hatred of other women who were “competition.” I bought into the purity culture lies, the Every Man’s Battle lies and made women, and my husband, enemy number 1.
Worse, I thought my husband was unhealthy and I was healthy sexually. Granted I don’t have such deep betrayal trauma as other women who do have unhealthy (sexually, emotionally) husbands. But, a lot of the reaction I see in comments seem to come from frightened women with low self-esteem. I recognize it because I was there.
Keith and Sheila are on point. And you know what? You do get to a point where you don’t have to chase away the sexual pop ups because they don’t come. I see a woman or man with an attractive body, even an exposed one, and I think, well, good for them! Or, great job working out. Or, wow, they are beautiful! Sex doesn’t even have to come into the picture because their sexuality is none of my business and they are not inviting my sexuality into their world.
Thanks, Katydid! Yes, that’s definitely how I see the dynamic playing out. I know a lot of people are coming at this with a lot of pain. But we need to see that the healthy thing is not to see noticing or thinking someone is attractive as a sin. It really is what you do with that. Even if you just can’t have your spouse behaving that way, let’s not pass that on to our kids.
It’s interesting how “not looking at women” sounds good, especially to the betrayed wife, but it actually leads to disrespect if he sees women as the “enemy”. I didn’t realize that until I found your podcasts, but it makes sense. I know a person who wasn’t angry with how women dress at the gym until after reading EMB (and your stuff helped him recover). It’s easy for me to feel like every male who mentions modesty is a heartless woman-blamer, but that’s not true, and I need to be accurate in how I assess them. Some are just afraid and/or don’t know it’s possible to think differently. Once they stop seeing women as “enemies”, it becomes easier for me to stop seeing men as heartless.
To be fair, I understand the situation of feeling guilty about normal attraction because when I was young, I wondered if all attraction was “adultery of the heart” or “loving him more than God”, but over a few years, I figured out that being afraid to talk to guys made me more obsessed with them, and believing it’s not a sin to talk made me less obsessed (so, if less obsessed is the goal…) I regret a specific time I was rude and disrespectful to a guy because I saw him as temptation instead of as a person, but I realized I was wrong in months, not years. As a result, I sortof understand guys with the EMB mindset, but not fully because I didn’t maintain that mindset for decades and I didn’t criticize what they wear at the gym.
Really interesting, anonymoous! I think viewing others as the enemy is the root of a lot of this (and on Steve Arterburn’s website, he literally does call female joggers “enemies”. It’s gross).
Ergh, the cringe… agree with you guys, factual and clinical language is so much more practical, as well as respectful. It’s really not that hard.
You guys mentioned sex humor briefly. I think this would be worth discussing more sometime. I’ve noticed a split amongst church folk, in that some abhor any sort of suggestive humor, but for others it seems to be the only way they know how talk about sex.
Example of the latter: our former church did a marriage seminar based on a book/sermon series called something like “5 ways to fail proof your marriage.” I had issues with it. You can probably guess some of them from the title. But the worst to me was the “intimacy” bit. For a whole sermon, and I think the whole book chapter too, the guy was calling sex “belly button to belly button time.” Wink wink, grin grin. Ok, once is fine. We all laughed the first time he said it. But he didn’t stop. No other terminology, just repeated that phrase multiple times as though it was so clever. It ended up sounding pretty juvenile, not to mention unhelpfully male-centric.
This kind of thing burns me up. It’s obnoxious, and if you point out how silly and chauvinistic it is, people say “oh he’s just joking!” as though the problem is you being too sensitive!
It really is very infantilizing. Why can’t you just say it? Yes, once may be funny. But that’s it. It honestly adds an element of shame if you’re not allowed to say it plainly.
Shame for sure. I tried to point this out in the group-something like “hey we’re all married here, we can say sex in church. And it’s not always that easy for women, can we talk about that?” Someone immediately turned it around and made a joke about me, everyone laughed, and that was the end of it. I didn’t quite realize till later that night how effectively I had been shut down. It’s a couple years later and that still stings a bit.
I find it really odd when people have to do this winking & nudging & euphemism stuff when talking about sex.
I used to work on a farm. Sex & reproduction is a fact of life, and we didn’t treat castrating the youngstock or moving the bull to a new group of cows as any different to any other job. The only ones who found it something to joke about were the teenage boys who came in to help for work experience, and within a day or so, they usually realised they were being immature rather than funny. But we had a couple of guys come in for a few weeks once, and they didn’t let up with the innuendo, euphemisms, wink-wink-nudge-nudge behaviour the whole time they were working. Can’t help thinking it displays a really unhealthy attitude to sex. NB: These guys were both 30-somethings AND from a local church. What IS it about Christian men & their juvenile attitude to sex?!! I was left thinking ‘great, guys, thanks for making Christians look so weird’! Months after, the farm manager was still commenting to me (knowing I was a Christian) on their strange behaviour…
Haha. Yes, it does make Christians look weird! Which is ironic because at least some of the time this sort of talk seems to be intended to show how “cool” and not-prudish the person is.
Excellent podcast! I always enjoy Keith’s perspective.
For example, I am a fan of Derek Hough. A US dancer and current judge on Dancing with the Stars. Yes, I find him attractive. But I appreciate his dancing even more. He did a performance this last week during the live show where he performed sans shirt but had body makeup on his chest and neck which went along with the theme of the dance he performed on the show.
In his live shows/tours, of which I’ve seen them all, including his current Las Vegas residency. He dances a lot without his shirt. As he did on Monday. I Appreciate his dancing. I’m watching him perform his art, and his body movements, which is what dancing is all about.
However That’s where my thoughts end. Im not thinking anything but this man is an amazing performer who is a gifted dancer and choreographer. He just won his 3rd Emmy for his choreography for performances in Dancing with the Stars last month in fact. Looking is not lusting.
The majority of these male evangelical authors who write sex books are from the baby boomer generation. This was a generation (my parents’) where sex did not get talked about and periods had to be kept hush hush. I’m wondering if that’s why these authors tend to sound creepy when they talk about sex. They were probably taught with the mindset that it needed to be hush hush.
I’m a Gen-Xer (born in 1976) and we’re more open to talking about these things. Of course, if you were raised in church, that might be another story.
Regardless of what generations we were born in, a lot of these male evangelical authors objectify women. Mark Driscoll was born in my generation and we all know how much he does that.
I do think the way people talk about sex can contribute to the way they were raised, but the whole objectifying women, that’s inexcusable and there needs to be a stop put to that.
I’m trying not to feel flabbergasted that a church I love to watch online (it’s in California and I live in another state) had Steve Arterburn as their guest speaker this Sunday.
My, I’d like to say almost dear, dear friend because I respect you and have loved you and your families work for quite a few years now. I’ve had to take a step away for almost a year, well, for however long the new book has been out. Of course I enjoyed the months of build up and then it sadly seemed to be and maybe I should have figured…the book…I’ve checked in a few times to hopefully find that that chapter, ooops has passed but I don’t know, it seemed to be the same old hashing of the mens sexual addiction book I’ve heard hashed about over and over again. Maybe there are new listeners who haven’t heard for what I can say are true and right objections and I don’t remember an objection any of your group has ever brought up about another authors book that I didn’t think you were right on but I’m not sure why it’s still going on. Yes, I’m sure the materials are still being used and the books you’ve debunked are probably still being sold but I miss your fresh, marital, sex advice instead of the bashing, albeit I’m sure well-meaning but even after almost 2 possible years now it seems like the same old record. I’m so, so sorry but I thought, hoped maybe it would be helpful to possibly know how some of us feel. Of course the lead up to the book and then for a while after it came out, ok, but I was hoping the story had finally changed and we had gotten back to the great family, sex advice we once loved. Yes, maybe it went there but I turned it off shortly after hearing the same ol story again. We really do love you and maybe the odds of me finding the same ol story again and again are unusual but I’m discouraged to think it’s probably not my odds. Just wanted to give you a loving heads up. Love you guys, keep Canada Free if we’re allowed to say that, and God bless you. Was hoping to learn how to be sex positive without being creepy 🙂 Really do care about you guys!! You have so much and we need so much.
” I was hoping the story had finally changed and we had gotten back to the great family, sex advice we once loved.”
Sheila has just finished a great series on sexual confidence – did you miss it? Also, Sheila does give advice on this podcast about being sex positive without being creepy – perhaps you didn’t listen to all of it? The blog includes timestamps to direct you to the relevant areas if you haven’t time to listen to it all.
Would you say this to a women’s DV shelter? “I was hoping we could move on past all the crises and focus on healthy whole families” when there are still women and families actively being harmed? These issues aren’t going away and we need brave spokespeople standing up for the vulnerable.
A few thoughts: EMB story: the first time I read it I felt it was a bad sign that a book combatting lust/porn is engaging in the very thing it claims to help you beat… (And why can I perfectly picture the intro to “Baywatch”, complete with theme music?) Any idea what Ms. Fileta’s specialty is? Any PhD anywhere? (And if she isn’t inventing the story for her podcast, is it ethical to “challenge” a client’s aversion … to a sex act in particular? There can be very good reasons behind those aversions—and why is it her business, anyway? It’s not her marriage!)
Have these authors considered how they’d feel if, at the doctors office, the doctor resorted to euphemisms and slang? (Prostate exam, testicular exam, fertility concerns, semen specimen, the list could probably go on…) Do you they’d be running from the room and filing a complaint?
The majority of this conversation seems to be telling men to be less creepy, but is it possible for women to also be creepy? Or is it that only men can be creepy?
If not, I would curious to know why that is, because if you are saying that one sex can say something while the other one cannot, that is text book sexism.
Sheila even says ‘this is not sexist’. However, she states, and I am paraphrasing, ‘that there are somethings that women can say that men should not because women would respond differently.’ Is that not biased if two identical statements would get completely opposite reactions?
I know that the majority of those on this blog are women and the content has a feminist bent, but if you want men to listen and not become defensive, often saying that men are the problem would be helpful.