93 Comments

1. Lori on January 18, 2019 at 8:57 am

   I’m curious if you have heard from the author.

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   • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 9:05 am

     No, I haven’t. I know that they have put some posts up addressing my issues (without mentioning me or linking to me), but all they’re really doing is doubling down on what they said in the book.

     For instance, in the blog post on Tuesday about sex, they did say that it was made for both, and that women might desire sex “when they’re ovulating or wanting babies”, but other than that it’s men who need sex. It was very strange. I find myself wondering if they know what a healthy relationship looks like.

     Reply
     • Holly on January 18, 2019 at 9:21 am

       I just read the new article on the L&R blog. I rolled my eyes at the “only wants sex around ovulation” remark. I always am in the mood. This type of stereotypical advice from the Christian community is so frustrating!

       Reply
       • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 9:28 am

         Exactly! Our libidos definitely peak around ovulation, but it’s not like women never want sex otherwise. I know many, many women suffer from low libido, and that’s why I’ve made my Boost Your Libido course. I don’t mean to diminish these experiences at all (and I’m on the lower end myself).

         But I still feel that a large part of women’s low libido is bad teaching like this. Let’s get good teaching out there!

         Reply
     • Lisa on January 20, 2019 at 8:16 pm

       When we’re ovulating or want a baby????? That would be funny if it wasn’t so sick. I need sex A LOT more often than that. Where on earth does he get these notions?

       Reply
2. Phil on January 18, 2019 at 9:04 am

   I am very disappointed in the programming this week. It’s been a growing disturbance I have had knowing something isn’t right. My issue is not with the message But rather the method by which it was delivered. The issue I have is that we have taken our fellow Christian friends work and condemned it for five days and haven’t included him and we are talking to people who ultimately we really dont know who they are. This is not a small group and this is a public forum. This is what I found: 1 Corinthians 6:1-20 ESV When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers. yes I agree men are not the ultimate authority in a marriage. Yes women should have pleasure from sex and yes men and women should be equals. And yes these are not trivial points. The problem is, I guarantee you over half to three-quarters+ of the people who have commented haven’t even read the book. I havent. And while they may agree with the principals laid out they fail to see that what was also happening this week is the feed of people’s character defect of judgment and condemnation which is just an extension of this world. that’s not change and It’s not epic and I certainly don’t promote it. this blog has the perfect platform. want change? Why not invite the author on the podcast to debate and have a discussion asking for an amendment to his book? That would be epic. condemning someone’s book isnt change it is just an extension of this world. If someone in a marriage group brings this book to you and wants to study it tell them YES so that you can tell the whole entire group the message that was delivered here this week. that’s change. I will admit that todays post has some good ideas for offering change. It doesnt change the fact that something is weong here. have more to say. I have pitched a bunch of arguments in my head the last several days as well as had various discussions with christian friends as to why this is wrong. Yesterday I reach the point of being bummed. I am struggling here a bit with posting this comment as I admit I may have not chosen the right Bible verse but I know this in my heart of hearts: something is wrong here. I don’t think we loved our fellow Christian friend or respected him. I am really sorry for everyone ☹️

   Reply
   • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 10:19 am

     Phil, like I said in the post, it really doesn’t matter what Emerson Eggerichs thinks, or what he meant, or anything.

     The issue is the book. People are reading the book without Emerson standing over their shoulder saying, “now, this is what I meant from this, so don’t take it that way!”

     No, they’re just reading the book.

     So we must deal with the book, and the book alone. And biblically, this is the right way to do it–in a public forum. When there is false teaching, or something harming the gospel of God, it isn’t something that should be dealt with in a personal manner or behind closed doors. When Paul saw Peter eating with the Gentiles, he stood up in the crowd and rebuked Peter loudly, in front of everyone. Then Paul included that story in his letters, to make sure everyone got the message. He didn’t see it as a personal matter to be dealt with just between him and Peter, or even something where he should correct Peter in private so that Peter could act better in the future. It had to be dealt with in a very public forum so that everyone would hear, loudly and clearly, that this was wrong.

     That’s what I’ve done this week. And again, I’d invite you to read the stories of these women (and some men!) who have been so hurt.

     I pray that other Christian publishers will realize that this sort of material is very harmful, and look for material that supports both the woman and the man in marriage, pointing them both to Christ.

     Reply
     • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 10:21 am

       One more thing–these women have been heartbroken. That’s what’s been overwhelming me this week. How much pain is out there! And they matter.

       We started 2018 with Rachael Denhollander asking a court at the Larry Nassar trial, “How much is a little girl worth?”

       I want to start 2019 asking Christian publishers, “How much is a Christian woman worth?”

       Because I’m not sure Christian publishers have figured that out yet.

       Reply
   • Lois on January 18, 2019 at 10:33 am

     I’m thankful Sheila posted these publicly instead of going to Eggerich privately. She made a safe space for women to share how they’ve been harmed by this book. She put words to what many of us knew in our spirits but couldn’t articulate or didn’t think we were allowed to say.
     I’m proud of her for being so brave and oh so thankful she did this publicly!

     Reply
   • Keith on January 18, 2019 at 10:39 am

     I think you are missing the point of the Corinthians passage and applying it incorrectly. Sheila has no grievance with Eggerich personally. He hasn’t done anything to her which might end them up in a court of law which is the kind of thing the passage is addressing.
     Instead Sheila has a big issue with the TEACHING that he has been putting forward and is seeking to give people another way to see these issues.
     The point of the passage in Corinthians is that it was an embarrassment at the time that the Christians couldn’t sort out their legal problems with each other without resorting to Roman courts. It seems to me today that the greatest embarrassment (and tragedy) is that we as Christians have obtained a reputation for supporting patterns that lead to abuse in marriage. God forgive us! I am glad Sheila is fighting to say, “NO! That is not what a Christian believes!”

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     • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 10:40 am

       P.S. This is my husband!

       Reply
   • Lydia purple on January 18, 2019 at 11:22 am

     I think the way Sheila dealt with Eggerichs book was very civil and respectful.

     I do not think that this is an issue that needs to be addressed privately. The book after all is public, and that is what she analyzed and criticized. The apostle Paul sometimes called out and warned in his letters from certain false teachings and people who spread these. Anyways, if you publish a book anybody has the right to review and criticize it. This is not an issue of personal offense, but the right of every person to examine what they are reading and holding it up against the Bible.

     Maybe Eggerichs himself is unaware how much harm the book caused and how his message was misinterpreted. I watched a few videos of him teaching the material and it really seems that His personal teaching is mich more balanced and in line with biblical truth, though for my taste it was still very strong stereotypical – there is some validity to that but his teaching does not cover if the stereotype does not apply. He does however call both to follow Jesus regardless of the spouse.

     I think because this series has led to so many people pouring their hearts out here to Sheila, it might be a good thing to take it one step further and indeed address Eggerichs personally in a letter and communicate your concern with his book based on your posts and the many comments with the request for him to review his book in order to clear up issues that might be harmful to readers. He has Josh Harris as an example in how this can be done. Anyways this is just an idea.

     Also as I commented on one of the other posts, anybody who has read the book and has had a harmful experience should consider to either leave a review on Amazon or goodreads or even consider to write directly to Eggerichs (I suppose this would be most in line with the Bible because it personally hurt you) or his publisher about how this book has effected you. This is not about tearing down a brother in Christ, but it is about bringing this to his attention and thus giving him a chance to respond.

     Maybe this is what sat wrong with you Phil? The dynamic that developed because people started to pour out their personal issues with this book publicly, without ever going directly to Eggerichs.

     Reply
     • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 11:55 am

       Thanks, Lydia. I think I will send off a letter to Eggerichs and also to Focus on the Family soon. And I will mention Harris. Gary Thomas has also pulled books and rewritten them when he had women tell him that they contributed to abuse. Others have done this; it can (and should) be done.

       Thanks for all your support!

       Reply
     • Phil on January 18, 2019 at 11:57 am

       Hi Lydia – thanks for your reply. I have learned that when I am upset that there is something wrong with me. So I own this. What comes up for me is my childhood. So maybe I just havnt dealt with some stuff. Here is the quickest version I can type out. When I was age 9-17 we had a change in leadership in our church. My Mom and another couple who was starting a Family would go out to eat every Sunday after Church. One of them was always on the church board. They would sit and smash the church and the leadership every week. I knew things about our church no boy ever should have to know or be coherced into beleiving or even aware of for that matter. I even particpated sometimes. During this time I was also being groomed for molestation by our youth pastor . What do you think the messages I got are about the Church and God and Jesus and the bible? Not good. Do you know what changed from all the garabage that was spewed? Some of it maybe right and alot wrong…. NOTHING! Until our old assistant pastor returned. So some valid points were made regarding my comment here. However, There is a history here that people are attacked or in this case their books and I while I agree language is important and say what you mean (I correct guys all the time about that). I am still struggling with the amount of time and effort that has gone into berating this book. I stand behind my comment that something is wrong and that what has taken place is not change it is rather just an extension of this world. And you know what? It feels like Christian bullying. So I am stuck and it is why I am so bummed. There seems to me to be an underlying problem in the presentation. Thanks Lydia.

       Reply
       • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 12:02 pm

         Hi Phil,

         I’m sorry for what you went through as a boy. I sincerely am.

         But there was just so much harm that had to be undone in this book. It wasn’t just one thing; it was a whole lot of harmful teachings. I couldn’t do it justice in one short post. It had to be definitive.

         So I took on sex first; then the idea of unconditional respect; and then I took a step back and didn’t talk about that book so much as I did the theme in many books that puts husbands at the centre rather than Jesus. I didn’t even really quote from the book in that post. That was just a more “big picture” post. Then today I just wanted to post women’s stories, because they matter.

         If there were a way to definitively say all of these things in fewer words, I would have. But it’s a huge enough issue that I had to.

         Seriously, I wrote the equivalent of 20% of a book this week, if you add up the word count. The average book is 50,000 words; this week I’ve written 10,000. It’s a lot of work. It’s exhausting. I’m literally a little bit shaky today from all the stress. But it had to be said. I don’t enjoy weeks where I have to write this much. It really is too much. So I only do it if it’s something really, really important. And this was important.

         I hope you understand.

         Reply
       • Phil on January 18, 2019 at 12:08 pm

         I have shared my story with boocoo people And I am also going to admit that for some reason I have become emoitonal right now. Maybe I need to let a big cry and you know what comes up? This is what comes is YOU (insert anyone condeminv this book) are hurting our fellow christian instead of adressing it directly with them and trying to help them and lif them up. 😐😢

         Reply
         • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 12:12 pm

           Phil, I don’t mean to pick on you, and I’ve already said a lot that needed to be said.

           So this comment is not meant for you as much as for others who will read this.

           When people critique others, we usually put the one who is being critiqued in the victim role (in this case Emerson Eggerichs) and feel sorry for him.

           I want to remind everyone that he is not the victim here. He has built a career out of this; he has huge name-recognition and has made a great living from this. He is much better known than I am; his books have sold much better than mine have; he is highly respected.

           The real victims are all of the women (and men) who have read this book and have been hurt. They, however, are largely invisible; and so it’s easier to feel sorry for the author.

           The reason I wanted to include all of these comments is to make these women (and men) more visible. They are the victims. They matter. And let’s remember that when we defend someone who has hurt another, we cause more hurt to those who have been hurt, if that makes sense.

           Again, I’m not trying to beat up on you Phil, because I know you’re having a bad day.

           I just want to remind all of us to keep our sympathy where it should lie–on those whose marriages have been broken apart after reading this book, or who have been so downtrodden.

           On those who grew up thinking that God wanted them “used” for sex, that their feelings didn’t matter, that all they were good for was “physical release.”

           On those who so desperately yearned for intimacy, but were told that their husbands wanted them just for release, and that they weren’t supposed to express opinions or they would be disrespectful.

           I’m actually crying as I type this. I’m just overwhelmed by the pain that has been caused by terrible teaching. It needs to be exposed. It needs to be stopped. And then we must say, “what can we do to ensure this doesn’t happen to anyone else?”

       • Lea on January 18, 2019 at 12:15 pm

         Phil, if you are ‘struggling with the amount of time and effort that has gone into berating this book’ then maybe it is because you do not understand how deeply this love/respect dichotomy has been pushed on women for the last 20 years, based in large part on this book. It’s ubiquitous.

         I don’t really understand why you are a defending a book so hard when you by your own admission not read it.

         Reply
         • Phil on January 18, 2019 at 1:01 pm

           I am not defending the book. I am defending the principle that we as christians should change each other by working with each other not by bringing someone else down to lift somone else up. At one time I blamed my Pastor for his shoddy ministry for what happened to me. You know what? I don think he got up one day and said “today I am going to harm the people in my church”. He may have had some problems in his ministry but he did the best he knew how. People should have talked to him instead of cause problems. Who knows, maybe things may have changed. I think the same is true with this guy. I dont think he woke up one day and said I am going to write a book to harm women. Now, if indeed he holds firm on his writtings after we confront him and what has been said is true. Well then what are else are you going to do? I think the underlying issue I have is this: There is a principle that will leave a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation.

         • Lea on January 18, 2019 at 1:48 pm

           Confront individuals in your life individually.

           Discussing a book is different. We don’t know the author individually, and his writings are public. They should be addressed publically. The internet is our version of direct confrontation in this situation.

         • Phil on January 18, 2019 at 3:59 pm

           Lea – I am pointing at Sheila. She is an author and she has acess and in my view should have attempted to investigate before. If he was not willing to change his views and actually owned the interpretation then go knock over the tables! Dont you think Jesus would give you a chance to re-evaluate something you may have gotten wrong? Anyway – I am really not looking to fight with you I am just trying to understand. I may have failed in my delivery of my argument but I believe my point has been made and heard. Oh and just for the record I am not having bad day. Thanks Take care.

         • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 5:14 pm

           Investigate what, Phil? I read the book in detail. I wrote about it in detail.

           Again, it has nothing to do with Emerson. It has to do with the book, which hundreds of thousands of families have read. It makes no difference what Emerson says now, because people will not hear it. They only have the book. So it’s important to tell them what the book says and what harm it has done.

           That’s what I did.

           I will reach out in private later, once I have all of the comments collated (and they’re still coming in). If people want to send me any privately, you can do so here.

         • Phil on January 19, 2019 at 2:03 am

           Sheila – it is very simple. Why did you not reach out to this author and ask him if this is truly what he meant? Why do you think it is ok to do what you did this week without confronting the author? He is a Christian. Maybe he has it wrong. Why can’t we talk to him first before we rip up his work? This has been my only point and it is very sad that I have folks suggesting I am arguing the book and your points. I have not read the book – I know who you are and I believe I would share your points as I usually do. I am just stuck on the principle that we can ask this person if they would like to make an amendment before we draw our conclusion and run them up the flag pole. What is wrong with that? Why is this not acceptable? Don’t you think Jesus would give them an opportunity? To me your work this week would have been so much more meaningful if you would have asked the author if he would like to amend his work based on such points you made before you ran into the ground. These are not my words but words I found that speak the truth. I admit I need work on my biblical backing. I suppose this affords me the opportunity to practice. “Jesus taught us to correct one another because he understood the danger of unrepentant sin. In Matthew 18:15-18 he carefully lays out a process of correcting a brother whose sinned against another brother. Jesus doesn’t reveal the nature of the sin. However, he makes it quite clear that if the sinner doesn’t repent of that sin, he shouldn’t be treated as a brother or sister in Christ. But how will this sinner come to realize his fault? He needs a word of correction. Jesus tells us to confront the sinner individually (v. 15). If the sinner’s heart remains hard, a few others should offer the corrective word (v. 16). And if that doesn’t work, Jesus indicates that the entire church must get involved (v. 18).” My point is this. Seems you told the church first Sheila. MY POINT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER I SUPPORT EMERSON AND HIS BOOK. AND MY POINT DEFINITELY DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH NOT SUPPORTING WOMEN AND ABUSE. My point has to do with the flaw in the method that was taken to get the point across. Thank you.

         • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 19, 2019 at 8:28 am

           Phil,

           Let’s imagine this for a second. Let’s imagine that I got an apology. What would that do? Absolutely nothing–because the book is still out there.

           In the comment of yours that I took down last night because I really wanted this conversation to end, you accused me of going on a rant and then backing down when Brian apologized about writing that article about how husbands needed to get their wives ready for Jesus that I criticized. You said that the fact that he apologized made my “rant” (your words) null and void.

           But he apologized–AND LEFT THE ARTICLE UP THERE. His apology was completely irrelevant, because people had already read the article.

           It was not that I had to say “this guy is an idiot”. It was that I had to say, “the ideas in this article are toxic.” And I was not the first to say it. I was about #20. The debate was in the public sphere.

           I am not debating a person. I am debating ideas.

           And that particular person basically said, “I never meant for it to be taken that way”, but then he left it up anyway.

           I am sorry that you do not recognize the difference. But ideas are powerful. This one overarching idea–that marriage, and especially sex, are made for men, and women are made to follow–is toxic. It doesn’t matter if Brian says it. It doesn’t matter if Emerson Eggerichs says it. It doesn’t matter if Paige Patterson of the SBC says it. It doesn’t matter who says it. It’s toxic. And it needs to be taken down.

           All the things I have gone on “rants” about and been “gossipy” (your words, not mine) have all had the same root. If each of those people recanted, the ideas are still out there, and need to be addressed. That’s why my post on Wednesday was a big picture one. It wasn’t specifically about Love & Respect. It was about this overarching idea that has infected Love & Respect but has also infected our church culture as a whole.

           And women will continue to be hurt until we demolish the IDEA. Men will be trapped in lust until we demolish the IDEA that every man lusts. It’s all the same thing.

           Let me put this in more concrete terms.

           Imagine it was 1850, and the person I’m critiquing is someone who wrote a book about slavery is backed by the Bible.

           Should I be taking that to him personally, or should I be shouting from the rooftops that he’s wrong?

           Because that’s how we see things. This is a moral issue. It’s not a theological one. His ideology leaves women trapped in abusive marriages, and contributes to the idea that women are lesser persons.

           It is wrong. And the idea must be stopped–not just the person, but the idea.

           If you wonder why we’re getting so upset, just try to see the issue from that point of view.

   • Kim on January 18, 2019 at 12:13 pm

     Thanks for putting words to what my husband and I have been feeling all week Phil! This isn’t the best way to go about grievances and that is what the saddest part about this week’s posts have been. Let’s not just look a “the church” or “the book” and play the blame game…there are SO many other factors that come into play when there is abuse or power trips in marriage…please don’t forget about this as well. We all have choices…and we all need to pray for discernment…with books, people AND blogs…this one includes.

     Reply
   • Sarah O on January 18, 2019 at 6:33 pm

     Phil , I think it’s wonderful that you have such deep empathy and such a sensitive heart. That is evidence that the Holy Spirit is working in you. I also admit this is an extremely sensitive issue for me, so I apologize in advance if my words seem a little harsh. I am not trying to pick a fight, just bring something to your attention.

     I have to say that I get disappointed in most of the male readers on this blog every single time Sheila addresses abuse of women within the church. Most of Sheila’s blog posts you, Phil, are first in line with a lengthy comment moments after publication, but during the week Sheila was addressing the SBC you and all the other regular dudes – Dean, Richard, Chris, etc. went MIA.

     Now she is addressing a popular book that perpetuates harmful attitudes toward wives, and once again, the regular dudes are missing, except you, who comes out in defense of the male author.

     I understand that as a man it may be easier to empathize with other men. I also understand you said you don’t agree with the arguments of the book. I’m not even going to say that Sheila’s article is above reproach. I am just saying that maybe you need to search your heart and make sure you really have a passion for your sisters as well as your brothers. This abuse issue is HUGE. Pastors and writers and mentors have been taking JESUS away from women and instead putting their salvation and holiness in the hands of their husbands. I firmly believe the issue keeps coming up everywhere because our Father is working on it – in our time, such a time as this.

     I am glad there are sisters like Sheila and Natalie Hoffman and Leslie Vernick and Vicki Tiede and Rachael Denhollander and etc. to lock arms with on this battle. And I am not saying “all men”. I am just saying I wish there were more of our brothers as passionate in protecting us as defending each other. I wish men were as interested in the posts elevating our spirit life as the posts about how to get sex from us.

     Again, sorry to unload. I am not saying love Eggerhichs less. I am just asking men to really check their heart when it comes to their sisters.

     Reply
     • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 7:50 pm

       Thank you, Sarah.

       Reply
     • Phil on January 18, 2019 at 11:05 pm

       Sarah – I attempted to reply to you peacefully including why I go MIA. My comment either did not take or got deleted. I am going to go with not take. I am cooked so maybe I will reply another time. I certainly would love to talk more with you. Thanks

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     • Phil on January 19, 2019 at 2:49 am

       Well Sarah – seems I have got the insomnia. I jolted awake at 1ish and so I decided to get this taken care of. Please know you did not offend me in anyway. First I want to assure you that I am not defending the author in question. I am merely standing up for the point of how this topic was presented. See my reply to Sheila above for better understanding. Next I want to tell you that as victim of abuse I WILL NOT STAND FOR IT. FEMALE OR MALE. I was very disturbed about the Jayme Closs case here in the US to the point I was making stupid errors not able to follow simple brain commands to open a door or get the car keys in the ignition or even stay in a conversation because I was in my head about it. So disturbing. I am more than happy to stand up for WOMEN who are sexually abused or mislead etc. In my reply to Shiela is also the answer as to why I go MIA when she goes on what I will call a rant such as this week. I couldn’t find the words earlier but I have them now. My original reply to you was not well drafted so I am glad it did not publish. The reason I go MIA when Sheila goes off on her rants is because of the point I made. It has nothing to do with if I support women. It has to do with not wanting to participate in something that is not following Jesus’ direction. When we tear down others to lift someone else up this is wrong. My gut told me all week there was something wrong here. That is why I did not participate. I want re-iterate that I did not read the book (which is another reason I did not participate) and I DO NOT DEFEND THE AUTHOR and I STAND FOR ALL WHO ARE VICTIMIZED BY SEXUAL ABUSE OR ANY ABUSE. If this authors work is garbage then lets tell him so. But let’s do it right. And that is my issue Sarah. This is why I do not participate in the “rants” I was using the word gossipy in my original reply which is not accurate because Shiela doesn’t gossip. But that is how I feel about the rants. It has nothing to do with not supporting women and abuse and that women are equal to men and men are not the ultimate authority and that women should have pleasurable sex etc etc. It has to do with the fact that there is a flaw in the presentation and I do not want to be part of that. Basically I am saying we have the order wrong when we tear up someones work and we haven’t confronted them. It is just that simple. Honestly Sarah. I have this inner feeling like no one is going to understand what I am writing, including you. It just seems that this week we are just hell bent on taking down this persons work without confronting him. And we are saying its ok because he wrote a book and its public so we can publicly take him down without talking to him. Some how we think this is ok. Even if his work is as harmful as said ( which if it is as harmful as said then lets get it corrected!) – However, he is a Christian and I really don’t think he intends to harm women but apparently from the comments he has. So let’s correct him. Let’s do it the way Jesus instructed us to. Let us start with Mathew 18:15 I believe he should have the opportunity to speak and amend himself before we throw him under the bus. Thats my point and I am sticking to it. And until Sheila changes her method of presentation on her rants I will either choose not to participate or maybe even I am finding out that this place just isn’t for me during this season? Maybe Sheila kicks me out? lol. I don’t know Sarah but thats what I got for you. Thanks for talking and have great weekend.

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       • Heather Ruppert on January 19, 2019 at 7:22 am

         Historically, many men, who have set themselves up as authorities in the church, have built fortresses around themselves, separating themselves from the masses. They surround themselves with ‘yes men’ who filter their correspondences and audiences. They are not easily approached.

         Eggerichs is one of those men. Shelia could (and probably should) send a letter. But I doubt is would do any good. Eggerichs has already received letters of concern. This book has been around for a long time and has done a good deal of damage.

         I understand what you are saying, Phil. I understand that this is vexing your soul and am sorry for the pain this is stirring up in you.
         But I strongly disagree with you on this matter. I wish that you could see that the painful things you experienced as a child and what is going on here are completely two different things. It’s not even apples and oranges. It’s apples and rutabagas.

         Eggerichs had made a lot of money and built a reputation on this doctrine. He has built his house on it, you could say. But even though his doctrine is built on a foundation of sand, he will not let go of it easily. Pained letters from women won’t make a bit of difference to him. His own teaching makes women expressing pain (that men don’t want to hear about) an act of disrespect.

         You call Sheila’s writing a rant. It is. And I’ll add to it. The women commenting here are venting because of all the pain and pressure that has been build up from being silenced. Their voices have been taken away by teachers like Eggerichs. And these teachers won’t listen to them, It is going to take a grass roots push back to stop the momentum of these false doctrines. The time for trying to do this in private is long past. Eggerichs should have been sensitive and listened to the quiet, private pleas of his wife and other women who tried to tell him that his doctrine is disrespectful and hurtful them.

         (P.S. Saw the book for sale at Hobby Lobby near the check out register. This irritated me. It really needs to be removed from shelves for all the damage it has done and is still doing.)

         Reply
         • Sarah O on January 19, 2019 at 7:46 am

           Thanks for your thoughts Heather – you had a lot of words I was looking for. Here’s the shortest version I can manage of what it’s like addressing abuse in the church, maybe you and Sheila will get a laugh.

           “it hurts.”

           “What?”

           “It hurts.”

           “I didn’t hear you.”

           “It Hurts.”

           “Couldn’t quite make that out.”

           “IT HURTS!”

           “WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING??? DON’T YOU KNOW THAT HURTS MY EARS??”

         • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 19, 2019 at 11:57 am

           I love this. Exactly.

         • Phil on January 20, 2019 at 7:16 am

           Hi Heather – I wanted you to know that I found your reply helpful before I read Sarah’s yesterday. I also wanted to tell you that until I read Sarah’s reply I blocked out the part of your reply that kind of disturbed me in your comparison of my childhood experience to this topic. It made me feel like it didnt matter. While I have figured out that your statement is actually correct I have to say – that was a tough pill to swallow. My childhood does matter and what happened to me does matter. I am still effected by it and it still obviously effects how I view this world. After I read and replied to Sarah’s reply yesterday I paced my parking pad in front of my garage probably about 100 times in a circle. He built his house on it and the time for doing this in private is long past were comments that I kept rolling in my head. And basically I came to the conclusion in modern day terms that my point is mute because women have tried that approach been there got the t-shirt the socks and underwear and the freakin hat! Thanks for your help on this. Take care

         • Lea on January 22, 2019 at 11:47 am

           “Eggerichs has already received letters of concern.”

           I completely agree with your points, Heather. He has already received pushback on this book. He is either ignoring it or disagrees with it. He 100% has gatekeepers who filter this stuff. If he thought he was wrong, he would have to address it, pull back two (?) books and his entire (likely profitable) ministry.

           Until he does that, people should feel free to criticize his public works. Criticizing ideas is not the same as criticizing the man or ‘gossiping’. Heavens.

       • Sarah O on January 19, 2019 at 7:36 am

         Thanks very much for your reply Phil. It was helpful to hear your reasoning.

         I think this may be an area where we have to trust the spirit to lead and use different people differently. My husband is like you – extremely averse to anything that looks like judgmentalism or condemnation, and I think he is made that way because it’s something he needs to fulfill his calling. Sheila has been given courage and a voice that reaches many – again, to accomplish the purpose God made her for.

         I hear your point that because Sheila is an author herself you think she should treat the author as a peer. I hear her point that the book has been widely disseminated and must be treated as a false teaching rather than a personal grievance because it misrepresents Christ. I am not going to try to mediate there as I think you have both discussed fully and I see Sheila has invited you to continue to conversation privately.

         My challenge, like when looking back at the SBC stuff – many of these leaders, pastors, authors, etc. we’re confronted privately and in small groups for years with no result, repentance or accountability, but still there was resistance to “going public”. None of us here on earth are perfect, so even our efforts to correct will sometimes be imperfect. I feel that when we discuss abuse of women within the church, there is always as much or even sometimes more empathy for the abuser than the women who suffered their abuse. “Let’s not overrract” “let’s remember they are still a brother in Christ” “the goal here is forgiveness and reconciliation”. And that can make it feel not only like men are more important than women within the church, but that even ONE man is more important than ALL women. And I think maybe many of us just aren’t getting how truly devastating physical, emotional, sexual and spiritual abuse are. Whether Sheila’s attempts to address the problems are 100% correct or not, I feel like she gets it. So if she is overzealous, it’s because she really FEELS anger and grief for people, rather than just acknowledging clinically that something is wrong.

         Anyway, I respect your response and your position. I know you in particular have unique insight into abuse and I’m glad you share and discuss on this forum. I’ll hold my peace from here.

         Reply
         • Phil on January 19, 2019 at 9:26 am

           You are awesome Sarah – Thanks for that. That was truly helpful. I really do appreciate that. The entire response was beautiful and exactly what I was looking for. Sheila wants this discussion to end for probably many reasons and I interpreted someone else’s response as my abuse doesn’t matter because I am a male. I see how this could go on…but I do feel as though I have been given the right to voice my opinion here just like everyone else. What YOU said really helped me see. Thank you. Ok Shiela I am done. Please cut off responses to my comments. Thanks

     • Chris on January 19, 2019 at 7:40 pm

       Sarah, thanks for the mention but i will not be commenting much on this blog anymore. I found this blog while trying to understand why i am in a sexless marriage. But i am reaching a point of acceptance with it and am starting to care about it less and less. As such i will not be reading or commenting as frequently if at all. I am sure you and Sheila will find comfort in that. I apoligize if anything i ever wrote caused you pain and i hereby apoligize to Sheila for taking up her time and distracting her from her ministry. But anyways thats why i am “MIA”. Has nothing to do with this book as i have not read it or heard about it.

       Reply
       • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 19, 2019 at 7:49 pm

         Chris, I am sorry about your marriage. So sorry. It really does pain me that there are marriages like that out there, and spouses who just can’t see the pain they’re causing. I’ll keep trying to think of ways to encourage spouses like yours to see what they are doing and what they are missing. In the meantime, I wish you all the best.

         Reply
       • Sarah O on January 19, 2019 at 8:30 pm

         I am so sorry for your pain Chris, and if I singled you out wrongfully I ask your forgiveness.

         It just looks like ALL the regular guys avoid the church abuse articles – and I notice because I really look for and would like the insight and reassurance that most men are not on board.

         Generally speaking I have always appreciated your commentary as it’s very helpful to stay focused on the various marriage challenges rather than making every single thing a gender issue. I hate it that you are going through a sexless marriage, but it is important to know that men get heartbroken, neglected and abused in marriages too and it hurts just the same.

         I’ll be praying for you.

         Reply
         • Chris on January 19, 2019 at 10:34 pm

           Sarah, i did not feel singled out so no need to apoligize. Forgiveness not needed and thank you for the prayers. The subject of sex is not a source of joy or pain for me anymore and has just become one of anxiety. I think i just need to keep my mind busy with other things and i will be happier. And reading sex and marriage blogs will not help with that. Praying for you too.

   • Mary on January 18, 2019 at 8:26 pm

     Hi Phil – I’m going to weigh in here just to say that I really get where you are coming from. I had a similar experience in my childhood with hearing things that no child ever should about church issues and leadership, and it has made me also quite particular about how conflicts in the church should be handled!
     I do totally see Sheila’s point as well and have found myself nodding along with many of the comments, as my father was an avid proponent of Eggerichs-style marriage teaching. It has done my mother & family untold damage.

     Reply
   • BJ on January 19, 2019 at 4:46 pm

     Phil, Being that I can understand everything these women said, as I was in a 15 year abusive marriage, it’s not surprising that there’s someone out there (and no offense, but not surprised you’re a male) can look at this and not at all understand what these women have suffered, with male heads of our churches and male authors coddling the abusers along and blaming the victims, all the while twisting the word of God to suit their purposes. I don’t see saints, so (to me) verses about saints ill apply.
     I can only think of is Matthew 7:15-25
     Matthew 7:15-25 New International Version (NIV)

     15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn-bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

     21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

     24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.

     WE WANT TO BE ON THE ROCK. And maybe a lot of us are fed up with being lied to, with being used and marginalized.
     I will admit, you might be picking up on a lot of anger that’s directed at authors and church leaders like this and a certain portion of it might deserve to be directed closer to home.
     I’m hoping that in our anger, we still keep ourselves from sin.
     I don’t agree with you Phil. However I WILL pray that if you are right, that God will put that on my heart, and that either way He will soothe yours, brother.

     Reply
     • Phil on January 19, 2019 at 9:11 pm

       BJ – I am not sure you read everything that was written by me or to me and or It may not be clear to everyone. Sarah helped me see this whole thing differently. Now I have to figure out what to do with it. For now I am at peace with it. While I may not have walked through this gracefully my intentions were to understand. That is what I do. I work on myself by trying to understand. It doesnt always look pretty and Sheila took a hit on a comment I made that she removed. She has done alot for me and it is a crap ton more than eveyone would ever imagine. I am grateful for that. So you know what? I have had a break through. So now what needs to happen is you need to help me figure out how to get the men here to understand so they can participate in stopping abuse of women too. I get it now. Honestly, I wish someone would have explained this to me some how some way in Some other format instead of me having to slop around and “fight” or as Sheila says wrestle with it (you all) to find it. Anyway, A freind of mine uses the word marinate for letting things settle in. Thats where I am at. Thanks everyone. Talk to you soon.

       Reply
       • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 19, 2019 at 9:29 pm

         I’m so glad, Phil! And I’m humbled by your humility (that sounds sarcastic; I really didn’t mean it that way. I am humbled by it). Thank you. That is a big task–to make others see. But it is not just men who need to see. It is also other women. I know many men who are very supportive, and I know many women who just don’t see what the problem was with the sex chapter in Love & Respect, for instance. It is anyone who doesn’t understand what it honestly means for women to be made in the image of God, too. That’s a big job, and it’s one the church will have to grab hold of in the next generation!

         Reply
       • Sarah O on January 20, 2019 at 9:40 am

         You are awesome Phil. Thank you. Honestly, the only way to seek understanding is to lovingly hash it out with one another – while assuming the best of each other.

         Thank you for engaging on this, and for all your kind words. I am trying to understand how to say these things clearly, so your feedback is very helpful.

         “The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” – George Bernard Shaw

         Have a peaceful and happy Sunday

         Reply
   • Lisa on January 20, 2019 at 8:18 pm

     I’ve read the book, I head him speak, and I’ve contacted him multiple times. He never responded, not even via an assistant.

     I feel perfectly free to discuss a harmful book that claims to be biblical but is really just based on one guy’s experience.

     Reply
3. Nick Aaron on January 18, 2019 at 9:14 am

   I’m saddened by the harm done with a book so hopefully named! To me, marriage is a man and a woman on equal footing and looking eye-to-eye. I struggle with many of the Christian marriage books that create a hierarchy, with the woman looking up to the man on some sort of dais.

   It’s obviously unfair to the woman, but I think it is also unfair to the man. In a perfect world, where the husband knows God’s wishes infallibly, this idea makes sense. But, we can’t. We’re just men. I’d rather have an equal partner working to create the marriage and the life we want, than to have all the power and responsibility.

   Love and Respect are the right answers, but they apply equally to husband and wife.

   Reply
   • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 9:26 am

     YES! I totally agree, Nick. It’s unfair to the man, too–especially the part about how men will always lust. That’s telling men who are tempted by other women that they can never get over it. It’s leaving men hopeless. That’s so not the message of the Bible!

     And yes! Iron is supposed to sharpen iron. We all need people who will spur us on to love and good deeds, not just enable our own selfishness.

     Plus, at heart, men and women need the same thing: Intimacy. A man in a marriage to a woman who never expresses her views or desires because that might be “disrespectful” won’t really know her. So he’ll never be able to experience that intimacy he longs for.

     It’s just so wrong.

     Reply
   • Sarah O on January 19, 2019 at 8:32 pm

     Thank you so much for your comment Nick!!

     Reply
4. KellyK on January 18, 2019 at 10:54 am

   Thanks for tackling this subject! I wish more Christian bloggers would be willing to stand-up and speak out against ‘sheep in wolves clothing”.

   Reply
5. Stephanie on January 18, 2019 at 12:25 pm

   I’ve appreciated these posts all week! My husband and I came across love and respect when we first married 4 years ago. Thankfully we were both emotionally healthy and good hearted so the message of the book wasn’t twisted as a weapon. Though I think I did take on some of the burden from keeping him from sinning (but we’ve worked through that).
   However I think the book and “man is in charge” mentality has really damaged and confused my husbands view of himself within our marriage. He constantly feels like he is falling short as a husband and father because he’s not “spiritually leading” or I’m not making all the decisions. He DOESN’T want to be the dictator husband, but feels like that’s what he’s supposed to do. But even in the midst of that, he doesn’t even know what “spiritually leading” or having a “submissive” wife is even supposed to mean!! Lol!
   Our marriage is great! And he is a selfless, caring, loving, sweet husband! Beyond amazing!!! And yet he persistently feels like he’s not fulfilling his supposed role… It breaks my heart that he is so wonderful and yet still feels inadequate because of this pervasive “man in charge” teaching.

   Reply
   • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 12:28 pm

     Yes! That’s very important to note, Stephanie. It’s not just that the book hurts bad marriages or makes them worse; it’s that the book can take good marriages and then make you feel like there’s something wrong, when there isn’t. Thank you for saying that!

     Reply
     • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 12:33 pm

       Hey, Stephanie! Just realized my comment to you was my 11,000th comment on the blog. Wow. That’s a lot!

       Reply
6. Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 12:27 pm

   I want to point out one more thing that I said a lot in the first post about sex.

   It isn’t just that the book could be used to enable sin and selfishness and abuse.

   It really is that even in a marriage filled with two good-willed people, where there is no abuse involved, the picture of sex which is painted is very unbiblical and seriously harms women’s libidos. This isn’t just a case of people reading too much into it, or of people who were going to abuse anyway reading this book and abusing.

   This is simply false teaching about sex which, I think, is one of the big causes for all of the sexual dysfunction that I have to deal with on this blog and from all the readers who write in. When women grow up feeling as if they’re not supposed to have any libido, that their bodies are dangerous; and that their husbands can’t love them without “physical release”–well, even in healthy marriages, that message can be very damaging.

   So it’s not just about abuse. It’s about dangerous teaching about sex.

   Reply
   • Natalie on January 18, 2019 at 2:46 pm

     Yes to everything you’ve written this week, but particularly this comment!! As I’ve said before, I’m finally understanding that I do actually have a libido, it’s high, and it’s nothing to be ashamed about since I’m a married woman and only having sex with my husband. I, a woman, am a sexual being. Men are sexual beings. That’s exactly how God created us, and before sin entered the picture, “it was good” as Genesis says. I feel like if these harmful messages that are fed to Christian girls/teens about a woman’s body and her natural desire for sex and intimacy in the marriage weren’t such seemingly foundational points in modern Christian teachings, Christian women wouldn’t have the hang-ups they do about sex and wouldn’t have as many libido issues. But on the flip side, I also think a lot of this false teaching is caused by men who use their influence and “spiritual leadership” to use women and their sexy bodies as a scapegoat for their own sexually sinful thoughts and actions. And Christianity isn’t the only one that does this! I’m sure many religions do this; orthodox Islam comes to mind first. Shaming someone for something they legitimately have no control over (i.e. the body they were born in) is never a way to teach a lesson or make a point, and definitely does a terrible job at strengthening that person’s relationship with Christ or pointing them towards Christ if they’re an unbeliever or questioning their faith. That’s why having these conversation is SO important!! AND ON A PUBLIC FORUM!

     Reply
     • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 2:54 pm

       Thank you, Natalie!

       Reply
7. Lori on January 18, 2019 at 4:59 pm

   Perhaps there is room for public AND private rebuke?

   Reply
8. Kate on January 18, 2019 at 7:17 pm

   Sheila, after you’re done with this series can you do a series on marriages that went through the storm and came out victorious on the other side. This week reading your blog has been depressing, for me as single lady. The world doesn’t have anything positive to say about marriage and it hurts in the Christian sphere to see the same thing. I understand you’re trying to help and give Christian couples (women specifically) a voice. But my word, i want something positive for the next couple of weeks. I can’t even imagine what it’s doing to your psyche being surrounded by all this negativity. I truly admire your patience.

   The Christian circles are the only refuge i have for a positive and hopeful marriage. But this week has made me even say, why bother with marriage at all. Hopefully, you have something fun, hopeful, and good coming up for us after this is over. Maybe a series on singleness or online dating. I know we’re the minority of your readers, but it doesn’t hurt to ask. 🙂

   Reply
   • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 7:46 pm

     Don’t worry, Kate! I have a whole bunch of stuff planned leading up to Valentine’s Day about how to bring the spark back, and have fun, and all kinds of things. Honestly, that’s what I’d rather talk about. But when people are hurting, and are continuing to be hurt, it does need to be dealt with.

     Reply
   • Lyndall Cave on January 18, 2019 at 8:03 pm

     I’m a single woman too, and I’d like to echo Kate’s sentiment. Can you please tell us stories of good marriages? Show us pictures of what healthy relationships look like and good ways of dealing with conflict?

     We need hope. We need to know that marriage is worth the work. We need to know what the good and healthy looks like (it’s SO much easier to reject the bad then).

     What attracted me to your site initially is the positive view you have of sex. When most of Christian culture around me wasn’t talking about sex and thus implying it was shameful and dirty, you’re here saying, “Sex is good! God designed it to be awesome!” That positive view has really helped me accept that I am a sexual being, regardless of if I marry, and I’m no longer ashamed of my sexuality. Positive and hope-filled pictures of what a relationship can be are inspiring and healing. (And all too rare in a world that likes to focus on negative things.)

     I really appreciate that you’re calling out harmful and unhealthy things, tearing down the bad. But please don’t leave an empty hole. Let’s plant good things in the gap.

     Reply
     • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 8:23 pm

       I will try to write more for singles in late February! I have a whole bunch coming up on getting ready for Valentine’s Day, but I have a bunch of posts I’d like to run for singles, too. 🙂

       Reply
       • Lyndall Cave on January 18, 2019 at 9:46 pm

         Awesome! I look forward to them.

         Reply
       • Lea on January 22, 2019 at 12:10 pm

         Although I’m seeing someone now, I personally think that as a single person it was at least as helpful if not more so to see what to watch out for in a relationship as to see happy stories. But being in a good relationship now, it also shines the bright light on some bad stuff in previous ones. So a mix is nice. Thanks!

         Reply
     • Melissa W on January 21, 2019 at 12:08 pm

       To the two single ladies who are discouraged by what they have seen this week in regards to Christian marriages, I want to give you some hope. Not all marriages struggle with these issues and not all marriages walk through the dysfunction of bad “biblical” advice. I have been happily married for almost 22 years. We were virgins when we married and have always had a healthy and active sex life. Neither of us grew up with or believed the negative sex messages that a lot of people hear in the church and we both have made the others sexual pleasure a priority so we’ve never had any issues there at all. In fact just last night we were talking about how much better sex is now then it was even when we were first married but at the same time we thought it was awesome then too. Always been amazing and just keeps getting better. We have always had an egalitarian view of marriage and my husband has always viewed me in terms of my relationship to God first before he views me in terms of my relationship to him and our children. He is truly the most amazing man and values and cherishes me above all else except his relationship to God. My thoughts, my feelings, my calling, my relationship with God all matter to him.
       He is truly selfless in terms of how he is a husband to me. My number one piece of marriage advise is choose well. It makes all the difference. Character, which Sheila talks about all the time, is the most important thing in a mate. And if he starts using scripture in a controlling or manipulating way, then run immediately. Also, find a church that has a healthy view of women and their role in ministry and life. Just wanted to let you know that there are good guys out there and healthy marriages in the church. I know it may seem at times that the church is more messed up than the world but bottom line is we are all sinners saved by grace…thank goodness. But healthy, happy, functional christian marriages do exist because I thank God every day that I am in one.

       Reply
       • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 22, 2019 at 7:39 am

         Amen, Melissa! Me, too! Absolutely.

         Reply
   • Weary on January 19, 2019 at 1:16 am

     As a wife burdened and depleted by these messages for 25 years, I would also like to hear more descriptions of what a healthy relationship looks like. I have never seen it modeled in real life. It was through your blog over a year ago that I realized the depth of dysfunction in our relationship and admitted my depression resulting from it. I have been seeking truth and learning much, but I would love to hear positive stories of women and couples who have worked through the toxic patriarchal and submission messages and how they got to a place of truth and healing. So many that I see are women who worked through it and ended up divorced, but finally healthy.

     Reply
9. Emily on January 18, 2019 at 8:40 pm

   I’m late to the party today, but for what it’s worth….

   That unhelpful teaching has been around for a LONG time. It’s what a former boyfriend believed (way before the book was published), and I’m so glad I didn’t stay with him. There’s no way we would have had a healthy marriage.

   However. The man I’m with now? The one I married 22 years ago, have 4 kids with, share my life with? My best friend. My first choice to talk things through with. He puts up with my choice of movies, I watch football with him, we laugh and cry and pray together. He calls me on my stuff, I point out where he’s wrong, and we slowly come closer to being who God made us to be.

   Thank God, my husband heard what the former boyfriend had been telling me and was appalled. That was a long, intense conversation. He basically corrected me on a bunch of things!

   There are still times it’s hard.
   Anything worth having is going to take work. Anything. A career, athletic ability, musical instruments, art, anything.
   Marriage takes work. But it’s so worth it.

   Reply
   • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 8:44 pm

     So glad you’ve found a good guy, Emily! And so glad you emerged from this teaching.

     Reply
10. LC on January 18, 2019 at 8:54 pm

    Thank you for these posts this week. I’ve been married for a year and a half and have been exposed to a lot of harmful teaching in the past few years, basically saying that my voice and my contributions as a woman don’t matter in my marriage or the church as men’s contributions. Fortunately my husband and I believe in being partners who both seek after God, but it’s really demoralizing to hear these harmful teachings all the time in the Christian community. I’m deeply saddened by the stories that have been shared. Those who are criticizing what you have written don’t understand how dehumanizing and exhausting it is to constantly be told in subtle ways by the church that women are lesser than men and don’t have anything to offer in the church and home except to follow all their husbands decisions and keep quiet. Thank you so, so much for reaffirming that God loves women, that women are not second class citizens in the church, and that marriage is supposed to be a partnership that both contribute to. This message doesn’t get said enough.

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 18, 2019 at 9:02 pm

      Thank you, LC.

      Reply
11. Lindsey on January 18, 2019 at 11:34 pm

    Hi Sheila,
    I just wanted to ask you about the comments that you’ve made regarding Focus on the Family. I know that James Dobson was forcibly retired in 2009 from FOF chairman position and branched off to start another talk show ministry. I have read several of his marriage books (including Love must be Tough), and felt that his view was not the same as the view in L&R at all. You seemed to be alluding to the fact that the old leadership of FOF would support the ideas of L&R, are you including Dr. Dobson in that belief? I just have a great deal of respect for him (although we’ve never met personally), and was hoping that you’d clarify.

    Reply
    • Lydia purple on January 21, 2019 at 10:02 am

      I am currently reading Dobson‘s dare to discipline, out of curiosity. I was really sceptical after seeing tons of reviews sharing that this book caused parents to abuse their children and it sounded really awful. What I found though is that Dobson while clearly pro spanking, did address this issue in the revised book and makes is very clear that he does not approve of excessive spanking or other abusive discipline, and he really stresses that the loving relationship must be the foundation.

      So while this has nothing to do with his teaching on marriage or his removal as chairman of FoF, it is a good example of a Christian leader listening to the critical response of his readers brought to him and addressing it and clarifying his teaching in a revised version of the book. I don‘t know if he reached out to victims of abuse where his book contributed, but I was really positively surprised by the way he acknowledged and clarified it in the newer version of the book. He also gives clear guidelines as to when completely avoid corporal punishment. He made a real effort to be understood correctly after realizing his book was misused in a way he did not intend.

      While he remains convicted that corporal punishment is the most effective way to discipline within the limits he makes clear, he acknowledges that one can also use other means if one is anti-spanking.

      Reply
      • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 22, 2019 at 7:37 am

        Yes, I think that’s a great example. Gary Thomas did the same thing with his book Sacred Marriage. I would love to see Eggerichs do this (although I’m not sure he could, because his theology itself, the whole underpinning of the book, is off. It depends on males making the decisions, so I’m just not sure it’s possible).

        Reply
12. Lami M on January 20, 2019 at 3:16 pm

    Hi Sheila,

    I can’t imagine how hectic this week has been for you. Thank you for pointing out false teaching and pointing us to Jesus.
    I bought this book in 2013 on the recommendation of my pastor, and while my egalitarian views on marriage were still forming at the time, i knew something was not right with the ideas. Somewhere he even suggests the wife should relate with her husband like he’s her boss! He pays lip service to mutual submission in Ephesians 5:21 and concludes with …In his words “when somebody has to call the shots, the husband is responsible to do it.” page 220
    Unfortunately at the time I felt compelled to like the book because it was recommended by someone i respected. Thank God i now know better.
    This book contains toxic ideas about the nature of marriage, and has a very poor view of women. I’m not surprised its contents have hurt people.
    And yes Sheila, i wholeheartedly believe that false teaching should be confronted publicly, not privately.
    To those who are trying so hard to make the author the victim here, remember that Accountability fees like an attack when you are unwilling to acknowledge that your behavior hurt others. He’s allowed to fall into error, what’s not right is to dig his heels in this error.

    Reply
    • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 21, 2019 at 8:13 am

      Thank you, Lami. Well said.

      Reply
13. Heather on January 20, 2019 at 4:12 pm

    Sarah,
    I like your comment above about:

    “It hurts”, “What?” etc.

    Very appropriate.

    There is also:
    “It hurts.”
    “No it doesn’t.”
    “Yes, it hurts.”
    “You are imagining things.”
    “No, it really hurts.”
    “Well, it shouldn’t.”
    “It does.”
    “You are being too sensitive.”
    “No, I’m not.”
    “It must be PMS or something. We need to get you to the doctor and get you some drugs to fix what’s wrong with you because you are not right.”

    (There are so many variations to the conversations the minimize and discount the feelings, needs and realities of women who have been abused.)

    Reply
14. Heather on January 20, 2019 at 4:33 pm

    This is to Phil if he comes back and reads it.

    I was horrified that part of my comment came across as dismissive of your childhood experiences.
    Yes, you and your experiences do matter.
    I wish that I had worded things more clearly so that you would have known that I believe that.

    I appreciate the marinating work you did to figure out what I was trying to say rather than judging me and thinking the worst of me.

    Thank you,
    Heather

    Reply
    • Phil on January 21, 2019 at 10:35 am

      Thanks Heather – I really appreciate your words. This morning I have been thinking about how if I only knew. If I had only understood first. Why did I have to come across the way I did to understand? Some how it seems each of us tends to include our own personal stuff in our interactions with others. When we can separate that from things we become more loving and more understanding and more giving and more compassionate. Another blogger hit me with the word KIND today. Unfortunately there are replies to me here that feel more like just someone’s anger about why I couldn’t see. Or they are arguing my points with counteractive measures that didn’t really help me see the larger picture. I suppose it is even justified given history. However, when we don’t separate our personal stuff it becomes personal to both and it blinds us. I was harmed and I will never forget it. Actually there is a piece of my life that is permanently blocked out. It is probably about 16 -24 hours of my life that is missing and I prefer to keep it that way. I really don’t want to know what happened. I know something did well beyond what I do remember and that is enough for me. But here is why even though I was harmed and I did not like that part of your comment – through my new vision of this discussion I have realized that you ladies are right. Individual male and female abuse is wrong and they are equal. However, the history of abuse (lets just use sexual for this example) is far lopsided comparatively for women if you look at history. Men are the leaders of this abuse and they are also the headship in this world…did I word that right? I am referencing 1 Peter 3:7 – Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered. [1 Peter 3:7 ESV] (Thank’s Generous Husband blog for pointing me to that)

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      • Phil on January 21, 2019 at 10:35 am

        what that means to me is that ME, MEN in general should honor their wives. That is obvious from this verse right? But If you apply that same verse to this conversation particularly this part “showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you” I/ME/MEN am then responsible to honor women and help them with ALL things to make them equal and in this case which is A VERY LARGE CASE the struggle of abuse of women. So in the grand scheme of things; My abuse while is not insignificant is small comparatively to the grandiose abuse of women in general. Therefore you were correct although again – REALLY TOUGH PILL TO SWALLOW on a personal level. Also, this is why Sarah helped me see. She did not discount me. She tried to understand and was kind and compassionate even though she vehemently disagreed with me. That is an extremely awesome quality to have especially given I don’t know how I come across here sometimes but I am aware I can be a real jerk. I am not looking for a pat on the back for changing my view here. The bottom line is that what happened here to me is very significant. Not just for me but for women. I believe there is a key in here some how that can be used in honor of this STAND FOR WOMEN. I think an extension of this discussion and approach could open up new doors for women. Maybe what happened here is viewed as the way sobriety is viewed in the 12 step rooms. There is a story about a man celebrating 9 years of sobriety in AA. He invites his Mom to the meeting to join his celebration. Her reply to him is this: Oh so you are 9 years sober? He replies yes. She says “SO IS THE CAT!” Meaning – while that’s great, you should have been sober to begin with, as that is what God really wanted in the first place. It’s a real story but the concept is sort of like the IT HURTS story, which I honestly did not get the humor 100% until I read Sarah’s reply to me, and everything sunk in. It’s a spoofy funny – ism that is TRUE. Anyway Heather – thank you and I think it is important to keep this conversation going.

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        • Heather R on January 23, 2019 at 7:08 am

          I agree that this conversation should continue.

          The reason for my late response is not because I have nothing to say, but rather because I have too many things to say and had to step back until I could hone into one of the things that I felt was the most pertinent to this conversion.

          Have you ever heard the term “Wounded Healer”?

          There’s a lot of info out there about this, not all of which is good.

          Basically the concept honors the wound and the journey of healing. Once the healing is sufficiently complete, the Wounded Healer is able to turn around and help those around him on their own journey of healing. He is able to heal others out of the strength he has obtained through the arduous journey toward his healing. Are you getting the point that the journey to healing isn’t an easy one?

          I don’t really like the AA 9 years sober story either. I used to work in foster care and dealt with a lot of people fighting addictions. Many, if not all, of those addictions were in response to deep woundings (abuses and neglects) these folks received as children. If I were to compare them to anything, it wouldn’t be to the cat that has a cushy life, laying around the house all day. I would compare them to salmon trying swim upstream against the rapids of the culture they were brought up in and the mighty force the the addiction that enslaved them. I get what that joke is supposed to convey. But I know there is always a whole lot more to people’s stories that what will ever be seen on the surface. Many of the parents I worked with couldn’t swim up that river, no matter how much support we gave them. So many were washed away.

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        • Heather R on January 23, 2019 at 7:15 am

          Part 2

          Phil, I can see that you are on this journey to healing that so many others have forsaken. I see you swimming up against the current.

          I wish I could get you better info concerning the Wounded Healer journey.

          Back when I was struggling in my marriage to try to figure out what was wrong, there was not a lot of info out concerning Brain and Personality disorders. As I searched for answers, I considered that my ex might have ADHD, OCD, Bi-Polar, Narcissistic Personality Disorder or some weird combo of several of the above.

          On my journey I discovered a book called Obsessive Compulsive Disorder: New Help for the Family.
          https://www.amazon.com/Obsessive-Compulsive-Disorder-Help-Family/dp/0966110447

          While my ex may have OCD, that is not his main problem.
          But I digress.

          The point is, that while this book had practical help, it also talked about the concept of the Wounded Healer so well that I could take it back and relate to what I was going through even though I didn’t think that OCD was my spouse’s main issue.

          This book honored my wound. It helped me see the importance of my own needs and healing in a toxic situation where my spouse’s disorder, needs and resulting chaos trumped all else.

          I don’t know the specifics of you wound. I don’t know if any of it resulted from someone’s brain or personality disorder. And I don’t know if the above linked book would be any help. All I know is that you are on that journey. And if there is any info I trust concerning the Wounded Healer concept, it’s in this book.

          May you continue on your journey.

          Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the righteous is like the dawn that shines brighter and brighter until the full day.

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          • Phil on January 23, 2019 at 9:13 am

            Thank you so much Heather. This morning before I read your comment but knew it was waiting I let out a big sigh of relief from all this. My wife asked me what that sigh was all about and so I told her what has taken place here. I really really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. There are alot of dynamics as to why I come to this blog. There is one that seems is though it is developing into something God given. That is healthy relationships with women in effort to understand and be understood. While here it is an e-relationship nonetheless it is meaningful. I have heard the term wounded healer before and for me takes on a native american meaning. I will be checking out the concept and will check out that book! Thanks so much and I am honored to be walking with you in my journey. See you on the blog.

          • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 23, 2019 at 9:36 am

            I love stuff like this! 🙂

15. Lisa on January 20, 2019 at 8:24 pm

    Thank you for doing the series, Shelia. It’s very well done and I’m grateful to have it as a resource the next time someone asks me why I dislike the book.

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16. C on January 22, 2019 at 5:01 pm

    Sheila, thank you for all of your work on this. The book has always rubbed me the wrong way. It’s always seemed to me the logical conclusion was that women do not deserve to be respected because they only need to be “loved”. I’ve always felt that my husband loves me, but going back to work and earning the respect of my colleagues made me realize how much I craved (needed) that and had been missing it at home. Now my husband (and my son) are good hearted godly men, but I need to feel respected too. (and I daresay my husband needs to know I love him and not just that I respect him. He would feel respect without love is a bit hollow too I think.) Thanks for bringing this to light!

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17. Heather R on January 25, 2019 at 11:10 am

    Phil, Sheila,

    I hope you will indulge me once more with a point that I feel is important and ties into this discussion concerning love and respect.

    Phil, one of the reasons I compare you to a salmon swimming upstream is because our culture, including out churches, makes it extra hard for men to become introspective enough to even acknowledge their wounds.

    It’s a little easier for women. We get blamed for a lot anyway. The honest ones among us have to look inward periodically to see if we are truly at fault, bitter, broken or whatever we are accused of.

    In our culture, women are judged for being angry. Men are judged for most emotions except anger.

    It is my belief that Dr.Emerson Eggerichs has some sort of internal wound that he has not addressed. If he had addressed it, he wouldn’t feel so compelled to write a book about how desperately he/men need respect and hold women responsible for propping men up.

    I feel he is protecting a wound that he doesn’t even know he has. But because our churches are so quick to put charismatic men into positions of leadership before they have dealt with their baggage, Dr. Eggerichs is just one more broken man spreading warped advice or doctrine filtered through his inner wound.

    So many of these men scapegoat and hold women responsible for their own issues, failings, and needs rather than doing the hard work of their own internal healing.

    Phil, I don’t honor your journey to healing because I want to puff you up. I do so in order to contrast it to men like Dr. Eggerichs and so many like him in the church. We have far too many men in places of authority who are so concerned with getting the glory, money, and respect that their authority brings that they neglect the health of their inner man. We have too much warped advice and doctrine that caters to the male ego and coddles his sexual issues. There is too much doctrine that lifts up men by putting down women.

    We, the church, have suffered too long under the tyranny of broken (and prideful?) men. We need more men like you.

    Just keep swimming. 🙂

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    • Sheila Wray Gregoire on January 25, 2019 at 2:05 pm

      That’s a beautiful comment, Heather, and likely very true. Especially this part:

      “I feel he is protecting a wound that he doesn’t even know he has. But because our churches are so quick to put charismatic men into positions of leadership before they have dealt with their baggage, Dr. Eggerichs is just one more broken man spreading warped advice or doctrine filtered through his inner wound.”

      That’s what I’ve seen again and again too. That’s likely why narcissists are overrepresented among pastors. There is a deep wound that has never been healed, and so they gravitate to places where they can have power and where others will prop them up, and it doesn’t end up going well for anyone.

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    • Phil on January 25, 2019 at 5:11 pm

      Thank you Heather. You made me smile and you touched my heart. Also, I have been investigating the wounded healer concept and I so totally identify. I will be checking into that deeper. I also found it interesting you think women have it a little easier in being able to acknowledge their wounds than men and as I write this I can see your point depending on the lens we look through. We all have a lens that we look through. One lens you have is the wounded healer lens. My lens from age 8-30 was sex. Then I found recovery and looked at the world through the lens of 12 step recovery. Then my lens started to get painted with my Christian faith. Now I want my lens to be totally Jesus. I look at guys like the author noted here and suspect he hasn’t a clue. In my terms I would say he has a Theology addiction. Not one person in their right mind would probably say the man has an addiction because it doesn’t fit the definition. But in reality he is no different than me. I used sex as my prop and I hung around those who propped me up. This guy got his thinking from somewhere – and it is his wound and now he hangs around people who prop him up. You have made me even more grateful for my sexual past. Sounds weird eh? Here is the thing. I believe we all have our own cross to bear. I had no clue I had a cross to bear. I was totally blind. I was even blind for many years in my recovery. Then I was told I had a cross to bear. Then I carried it around for a while proudly not knowing what to do with it. Then Jesus came along and said – let me take that for you. I already did that for you….and whenever you feel like picking it up again it or if it falls on you…call me and I will help you hold it.

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      • Phil on January 25, 2019 at 5:11 pm

        Guys like this author have it so much more worse than I do because they know they have a cross to bear. The problem is they can’t identify what it is! So I feel sorry for this guy. He is stuck and doesn’t’ even know it. EGO is such a huge part of it. At least for me, my world started crumbling around me and I had some obvious issues that needed to be addressed. Most likely this guy has everything anyone of us could ever ask for in all aspects of his life. He just can’t figure out why his spiritual life isn’t working. So he writes more books on his theology makes more money and everyone around him says how great he is and how helpful his books are and so he feels like he must be doing God’s will. In the mean time he is absolutely screwed because his god is not the God he thinks it is. In the 12 step groups I attend I have seen a ton of clergy and they have a really tough time. I believe the reason is that “they know too much!” They think God is supposed to do it for them for some reason. I never figured that one out but if you ask them that is the answer you get. So this guy is pretty screwed because he thinks God is on his side and is guiding him and really he needs to work on himself to see he is wrong and he is harming women with his theology. That’s a tough sell to someone who’s life is not crumbling around them. At least I had tangible evidence my life sucked and was about to get worse and I was going to go to hell if I didn’t stop. See how lucky I am? On the subject of anger: If you look at many of the comments left in response to me there is anger. Some more defined than others. I obviously had some anger going too. Sheila got a shot or 3 across her bow. This happens to me in the 12 step rooms sometimes often. Guys don’t like what I say. It rolls right off my back because I know in principle they are trying to understand. That is what we have to get too.

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        • Phil on January 25, 2019 at 5:12 pm

          UNDERSTAND. If you read Conners email today from the email blast that is what he is talking about within marriage. But really that is what we should be trying to do with everything. Look – I love this bog and I really do love Sheila as my sister in Christ. Now I have a couple more sisters to love in Christ. The bottom line is that we need to try to understand each other more if we are going to get along. That is what Sarah did and you did. I posted this 12 step slogan recently. It is better to understand than it is to be understood. When we understand someone the other person feels understood and we disarm them. Then we can talk ☺ Thanks Heather.

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18. Rhonda on January 25, 2019 at 2:13 pm

    I never read this book, but I thought I’d give my 2 cents. I read what you quoted from the book, and it made me think about another wildly popular christian marriage book, His needs, Her needs, which I didn’t read either, but heard about from a lot of people. After reading your posts yesterday, I went online to read about the “His needs” list. Do you know that sexual fulfillment is not on the “her” list at all? Not at all!

    What these guys are telling us is that women are not sexual. I guess they think that God messed up. That the wife in Song of Solomon is all fiction. We owe it to ourselves and our husbands to find out what God says about it, straight from the source.

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19. Rachael on February 5, 2019 at 11:52 am

    Dear Ms. Gregoire,

    Thank you for posting and honoring the stories of these brave men and women. I occasionally poke around your site to gain a better understanding through your articles and the stories you share. It’s difficult to articulate, but as a victim of intimate partner violence at one point in my life, and having dated several deeply emotionally immature men that have caused deep wounds, I greatly appreciate your work in revealing the harmful messages that are often ascribed to scripture because someone has misread it or is twisting it in deeply harmful ways. Developing prudence and a sense of phronesis to intellectually recognize when we are being mislead is helpful, and in hearing the stories of others, psychologically helps to recognize others for who they truly are and to develop empathy for the experience of others in relation to our own.
    I have seen this book around, but never been inclined to read it, as I have a long reading list, but I would recommend Edward Sri’s “Men, Women, and The Mystery of Love”; it is a little more well-rounded and thoughtful as an approach to marriage as partnership, and the need for both respect and love for the dignity of the human individual as a child of God.
    Please continue to do the work you do, and God bless you and your family 🙂

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    • Sheila Wray Gregoire on February 5, 2019 at 12:28 pm

      Thanks so much for the encouragement, Rachael! So glad that you’re here.

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