In the 1980s, I used to go to sleep listening to a Steve Camp song.
Steve Camp was a Christian music artist, and I had all of his cassettes. One song in particular always spoke to me–a remake of Larry Norman’s The Great American Novel. The last few lines were these:
You say all men are equal, all men are brothers,
Then why are the rich more equal than others?
Don’t ask me for the answer, I’ve only got one:
That a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son
That always brought tears to my eyes.
I even went to a Steve Camp concert in Toronto back in those days! I seriously was a big fan.
So it was a huge surprise to me last month when I somehow managed to get in a Twitter fight with him, and he called me emotional, told me I was easily deceived so he should really hear from my husband, and then called me uneducated.
A lot of people insult me on social media (and in the comments section of this blog), and I normally let it go. But this one I want to talk about today, because this is an important week. This week the Southern Baptist Convention is having their annual meeting, and there will be a rally (#forsuchatimeasthisrally) in Dallas outside that meeting to raise awareness about the many, many ways the SBC has covered up sex abuse, counselled women to go back to abusive husbands, allowed those charged with coverups, or even charged with actual abuse, to continue in the pulpit, and attacked those who have come forward with their stories of abuse. I wanted to be at the rally in Dallas, but it just didn’t work out. And so I want to stand in solidarity with them.
If none of this is an issue in your church, then rejoice. It is not an issue in my church, either, and not all churches are like this at all. If all of this just makes you sad, then it’s okay to leave these posts and return on Wednesday.
But when there is major injustice being done, especially in the name of Christ, I have to speak up. And this concerns marriage and sex, and so I feel as if it is right in my purview.
So why talk about Steve Camp today? Because while he was a Christian music artist in the 1980s, today he is an SBC pastor at Cross Church in Palm City, Florida.
And he is the perfect example of the attitudes that are ripe within the SBC, and that have to be addressed.
So let me tell you my story.
(I will try to put in some screen shots and links to the Twitter conversation, so that you can go and see it. I also am including screen shots rather than embedding tweets because I’m afraid he may delete them. He’s already blocked so many people.)
It all started after I arrived back from Australia rather jetlagged, and instead of going to work I went on Twitter.
A woman I follow (Julie Anne, @DefendtheSheep, from Spiritual Sounding Board) had posted an article on submission, and some guy I didn’t know with a weird Twitter handle had replied that it was emotional and didn’t have any clear arguments. I followed the link, and thought it was a good article. So I jumped in with a defense of it, saying that it wasn’t “generalized propaganda” like he had called it. And I was genuinely trying to have a conversation:
As the conversation went on, Julie Anne jumped in, and I looked back over the thread up until then. It turns out that three separate times Steve Camp had called her emotional, when she was simply making an argument. And he had insinuated that we should hear from her husband instead. (You can see all of that on this thread). Julie Anne then told me in a private message who I was talking to, and I was flabbergasted. THIS was Steve Camp? The person I had admired?
I attempted to continue the debate while also asking him to apologize to Julie Anne for insulting her. He said she simply wasn’t up to the task of debate. I kept making the point that he was a pastor, and so he should be reflecting Christ.
Finally, he posted this:
Now, in what context during a debate with a woman is it ever in good faith to say that women are susceptible to being deceived? Whenever women tried to engage him, he would call us emotional, or else ask to talk to our husbands (he did that with Julie Anne, too), or say that we were being deceived. And again–he is a pastor.
After this tweet he received an incredible amount of pushback, because it went quite big on Twitter. So he tried to redeem himself the next morning by posting an “explanation”:
I retweeted his tweet and called him out on it.
Shortly after that he blocked me. The next day J from Hot, Holy and Humorous chimed in and told him he had been completely inappropriate. He responded this way:
At this point, my daughter Rebecca (@lifeasadare) jumped in, asking for a straight answer on one question: Does Steve Camp believe that women are more easily deceived than men, since he used that as an excuse to end a debate? The thread is quite illuminating–she keeps asking, he keeps dodging.
He never did give her a straight answer, but his wife laughed when another Twitter user told Rebecca that she was the perfect example of why women should stay silent. Right after Rebecca reacted to that, saying that was completely inappropriate, Steve Camp said this:
Suffice it to say, at the end of their conversation Rebecca very firmly told him what she thought of how he acted on Twitter.
And now I have invited someone else to tell him what he thinks of Steve Camp–who remember is a pastor in good standing with the Southern Baptist Convention.
Steve kept saying that he wanted to hear from my husband (and from Julie Anne’s husband). And so, Steve, here you go:
Our very jetlagged selves right after we landed in Sydney, Australia last month
“Another ‘Wives submit to your husbands’ debate on the internet….fantastic,” Keith said (meaning the exact opposite).
The two sides have been hammering at each other for years now. The debate has gotten so much more heated and so much louder now that it seems people are just not able to listen to each other anymore. Case in point, a recent debate between Pastor Steve Camp and Julie Anne that Sheila waded in on last month.
I try to avoid these discussions, but my wife has asked me to chime in since at one point in the debate –I am dumbfounded by this – Pastor Camp specifically asked for my husband’s-eye view on things. Now, I have no interest in getting into any discussions with Pastor Camp about this issue. It seems clear to me from the Twitter feed that his mind is made up and he is not really interested in discussion of any kind. However, I did want to say a few things for the record.
First, my wife does not need my permission to have her own opinions.
(By the way, I can’t believe we are at a point in church history that I have to say that.)
Second, she does not need my permission to share her opinions on the internet.
(The fact that I have to explain this is also absolutely “gob-smacking” to me).
Third, I want everyone to know that when I don’t jump in on these debates it is not because I don’t support her, but because I know she can take care of herself.
Fourth, I want to talk a bit about how our relationship actually works.
At one point, Pastor Camp made a comment that he was glad Sheila was going to “allow me to speak”. This strongly suggests to me that the mindset here is that if I, the husband, am not in charge than clearly she must be. It is a sad a terrible thought to me that some people see the world this way. Unfortunately, my life experience – including hateful commentary directed at me on Sheila’s blog – has taught me that there really are people out there who think like that.
For the record, Sheila and I are a team.
We both submit to God as the Bible teaches. We both submit to each other as the Bible teaches (Eph 5:21). We make decisions together and when we disagree we keep talking, praying and seeking God’s will until we figure it out. If we ever got to the point where we were truly at an impasse, my natural reaction would be to seek Godly counsel from friends, mentors, parents or a pastor. The idea that I would make the decision because “I am the man” is just not in our DNA. I see no Biblical problems with holding this view.
And now my thoughts on the discussion…..
In the Twitter thread, the point both Julie Anne & Sheila were trying to make – and that Pastor Camp totally missed – is that regardless of one’s interpretation of Scripture, we ought to treat each other with respect. At one point, Julie Anne demanded an apology as Pastor Camp had strayed from the issue and attacked her personally as being “emotional”. This I find sadly humorous because it seems to me reading through the feed that the person on the emotional side was Pastor Camp. Whether you agree or disagree with the points Julie Anne was making, she was calm throughout. Pastor Camp got progressively more and more revved up and eventually closed up with a “now the feminists are preaching heretical soteriology!” diatribe. Really?!? It seems to me Julie Anne was just trying to start a discussion on what Paul meant when he said “Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her”. If she worded it not to his liking it doesn’t give Pastor Camp the right to twist it into her trying to preach heresy. And not a few tweets ago, he was sarcastically jibing someone else that “hyperbole is not a spiritual gift”. For shame!
His cluelessness is further demonstrated by the fact that afterwards, he accused them of turning the debate into emotions as they couldn’t debate the facts. Again, he is missing the whole point. When they started presenting arguments, he started attacking them personally, first calling Julie Anne “emotional” and then Sheila “deceived”. He turned it into emotions, not them. They were simply looking for an apology so they could continue the debate on civil terms. But instead of an apology for his hurtful words, he rammed right past that with further proof texts. But in what universe is it okay for someone to say, “I’d rather hear your husband’s opinion on this as women are prone to be deceived.”? The thought of saying that would never cross my mind, nor any of the men I know. If a man were to speak like this to a female colleague at work, he would certainly be disciplined and perhaps fired – and appropriately so. But a pastor can say this publicly and no one blinks. This baffles me. And it needs to stop.
I simply don’t understand this need to “prove” to everyone that men have some sort of intrinsic authority over women and that somehow we can’t be truly male unless we are leading or truly female unless we are following. The CEO of the hospital I work at is a woman. If I were pulled over by a female police officer for a legitimate offense, I would submit to her and pay the fine. Neither of these situations is in any way an assault on my manhood. In fact, it would never have entered my mind to think that way except for the crazy stuff I hear spouted from the internet as “Biblical truth”. Honestly, it makes me wonder what kind of insecurity motivates someone to make sure another is “in their place”?
I have always tried to hold the charitable view that these people were honestly worried about Biblical truth being diluted and – although we disagreed on interpretation – they were just trying to be true to God’s Word. Tragically, I must confess that years of seeing women being told to shut up because they are women, hearing of women being sent back to abusive husbands by pastors because “they just need to submit more” and seeing my own daughters told they are somehow less than their male peers by ministers and other people in the church have been making it progressively harder for me to keep seeing things that way.
And now a word to my readers:
Steve Camp normally wouldn’t matter. He’s a pastor of a small church with very little influence.
But there are women in his congregation who need to know that they do not need to accept being spoken to like this.
And Steve Camp is part of the Southern Baptist Convention. The SBC obviously has no problem with having their pastors go on Twitter like this. To me, this is part of a larger issue within the SBC, which I’ll be talking about tomorrow in solidarity with those who will be holding a rally asking the SBC to take abuse issues seriously.
Finally, please hear me on this:
If anyone ever tries to silence you because you’re a woman, telling you that you’re emotional, that you’re deceived, that only your husband’s opinion counts--you don’t have to take it.
It is okay to speak up. It’s okay to have opinions. You matter dearly to God, and He created you with your intellect, your giftings, your brain. You are not someone that is to be easily dismissed.
And when you do speak up–know that even if your circle thinks of women that way, most in our culture do not. Many, many men would stand up for you. Many, many women would, too. And if you are in a circle where pastors think it’s okay to speak like this about women–then quite frankly, get out.
I just have one final question to ask of Steve Camp, and I’ll use his own lyrics to do it:
Why do you think some Christians are more equal than others?
Because Jesus doesn’t.
Sheila Wray Gregoire has been married for 25 years and happily married for 20! She loves traveling around North America with her hubby in their RV, giving her signature "Girl Talk" about sex and marriage. And she's written 8 books. About sex and marriage. See a theme here? Plus she knits. Even in line at the grocery store.
As a member of SBC, I say this is not characteristic of all SBC. Or their pastors. I think this is one man’s -probably “old school”- way of thinking.
In our church, we are all created equal. And that is what is taught. We are all to serve each other, within the body of believers & non-believers alike. Christ came to serve & we should as well.
I also agree with this article that “submission” is done out of ones heart. I also agree with Keith in that, in marriage, we are a team. We support & serve each other. Not b/c one is superior to the other. But b/c we love each other. I know this isn’t true in all marriages & a lot of men believe the way this “pastor” does. And for those women, I am sad.
Thank you, Anonymous. I am so sad for these women, too.
It sounds like you have a great pastor. If you could encourage him to speak out against what’s going on, and to ask the leadership of the SBC to clean up its act and get a full investigation of C.J. Mahaney and expel the churches that don’t handle abuse well–that would be great. This just needs to stop.
Steve Camp proved one thing: He’s a very insecure little boy, scared to death that he doesn’t have a good answer to reasonable questions, so he insults rather than debates. He proven himself not up to the task of representing Christ, and with attitudes like that, one has to wonder if he ever knew Christ in the first place or perhaps was just another bland, formulaic Christian artist, knowing neither Christ nor good music.
I’ve seen the type and know the type. Best to just kick the dust off your feet and let him perhaps hit bottom in the cesspool he’s created for himself. Nothing good there and little point in trying to reason with one like that.
This article broke my heart. This “Steve” has a lot to answer for. No where does the Bible say that women are more open to being deceived than men. No where is submission obedience. Submission is receiving from the head that which the head has to give. When Peter calls the women the weaker vessel it is not because she is physically, mentally, emotionally, weaker… in these she is different. She is weaker by position. The “head” has the power to hurt, but that is abuse. I get so angry at abuse in the name of Christ.
I am an independent Baptist Pastor and see way too much of it. The husband’s job is to make his wife great and glorious by the washing of the water of the word. (that is his words either defile her or grow and cleanse her.)
Thank you, Keith, for pointing out insecurity. I’ve been thinking for a while that both complementarian/patriarchal men as well as those who focus on masculine/feminine differences (and caricature each) are operating from deep insecurity which I think is a fruit of western culture’s focus on hyper-masculinity as the supposed “norm” and hyper-femininity as the opposite “norm” while neither are normal nor healthy. Since most of us don’t fit into either box, we naturally feel there is something wrong with us instead of the problem being an incorrect definition of what is masculine and what is feminine. But a paradigm shift is too “scary” and it’s easier just to double-down and disparage others who threaten the paradigm – tear down someone else to prop up the fragile ego. And all of this because our focus isn’t on following Jesus and His example.
I use the plural possessive because I’m still fighting my own insecurities some of which are a result of growing up in a patriarchal denominational system which split from the SBC because the SBC was “too liberal.” 🙂
Very interesting comment, DragonLady! I totally agree.
I think there’s more going on than just insecurity, though. I think there’s a real hatred of women here. While I agree with both you and Keith that many who talk like this seem insecure, I don’t think that’s all it is (and I’m not insinuating that you think that; just trying to have more of a conversation. 🙂 ).
I think he honestly treats women with great contempt, and nobody could do that unless there were some real sin issues there. To be blunt, no one who really knows Jesus could say the things that he does on Twitter. I know that sounds judgmental, but I think we need to start standing up to people who spew hate in Christ’s name. This just has to stop!
I completely agree that there is great contempt and hatred for women! I think it goes all the way back to the Garden when Adam threw Eve under the bus taking absolutely no responsibility for his actions whatsoever. Granted, Eve tried to pass the buck, too, but as least she admitted she believed a lie when she said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” Perhaps this is the entire source of the contempt for women. Some men are like the first Adam and are unwilling to take personal responsibility for their behavior. Blame the women for being “easily deceived” who will then lead them astray which makes no sense. If men aren’t so easily deceived, how is a supposed deceived woman going to lead him astray? Ugh. Infuriates me. God didn’t curse all of creation over Eve’s sin, he did so over Adam’s.
Absolutely! And the curse–men shall rule over you–is too often treated like it’s God’s prescription, as if it’s a good thing. Jesus came to reverse the curse, not to cement it! And yet we have whole theologies that are built on trying to put lipstick on a pig, or trying to make something that God meant to be ugly look beautiful.
Could you share a link to the original article that prompted this “debate” on Twitter? I’d love to read it and weigh it for myself.
I’ve been fortunate to mature in a church that teaches submission in a beautiful way- not in the selfish, warped way our sinful nature perceives it (hey, do this for me because I said so!) but as a response to unconditional love, protection, and care that trusts that your highest good is being sought. I’ve always had the view that it is easy to submit to someone who so deeply and fully loves you- someone who does that will not harm you, but will cherish you.
Of course, our sinful nature means we carry this out imperfectly and skew it. As the pastor who married my husband and I (and did our pre-marital counseling) said, “you both did a really good job of picking out a sinner to marry.” Thanks be to God that Christ has perfectly loved his bride the church so that we see God’s design for our marriages!
Submission to GOD makes perfect sense to me in this context.
Submission to another fallible human being? Not in the sense you’re talking about- complete and unquestioning submission “because god says so.” No. That’s not Biblical.
Thank you for calling that into question! As I re-read my comment, I see that I skipped from “point C” to “point N” and, because I had access to my thoughts, it makes perfect sense to me. I should have read my comment aloud to myself before submitting it!
Would you be willing to share your views on this topic? I’d love to understand a bit more about your perspective.
Thank you for the link, Sheila! 😊
Ack! Let me see if I can find it. The threads are so convuluted now, and I’m blocked by Steve, so it’s hard to see everything.
Okay, I found it!
Bravo to both you and your amazing husband for your wise responses. I started following you in March. I love your no nonsense yet biblically sound advice and commentary.
I am from the US and married to a Canadian. We have 3 beautiful daughters. Your insight on women and being equal Christians as well as speaking of the true meaning of submission in a marriage is refreshing.
Your blog has been a blessing to me and my marriage over the past few months Sheila. I sure appreciate the important work you do and your insight as a Christian woman, mother and wife.
Keep fighting the GOOD fight and God Bless you and your beautiful family. Xoxo
Oh, thanks so much, Kate! I hope your Canadian husband has taught you that fake maple syrup is not to be tolerated.
I have to say, I really have a hard time with the phrase “God’s design for…” when it’s anything other than the temple and its furnishings. In my experience, the people who use this phrase are the same ones who see the results of the curse – man ruling over women – that Sheila mentioned above as part of ‘God’s design for marriage” because it is part of the full counsel of God’s word, and law of first mention, and other such Bible translate-y phrases people like Steve Camp like to throw around so they can feel like they are trained Bible scholars. When people throw around the phrase “God’s design for…” fill in the blank, it’s usually shorthand for “if you question this, you’re questioning God” (which, by the way, if He is God he is big enough to handle being questioned, and already knows that we are questioning, so…”
Watch out for the people who claim to know “God’s design” for anything, especially if they are not designers. The process of design involves so much observation and adaptation, and is usually able to be discovered by reverse engineering. When you reverse engineer what the so called Christians of today call Gods design for marriage, what is at the core is fear, insecurity, and control just like this post has been describing.
I followed this Twitter thread as it was happening and was incredibly disappointed with the way this pastor treated you, Sheila (Julie & Rebecca too). I am so glad you took the time to thoughtfully reply. And, I LOVE what your husband had to add. My husband and I do life the same way. We are a team!
Amen, Tina! And thanks for your support on Twitter, too.
I’m also in a SBC church and all this stuff that is going on baffles me because I just don’t see these attitudes. Admittedly I am only involved with my church and not the general conference.
Sheep, I certainly don’t think that this is all SBC churches at all, and thank you for bringing that up! But then, that’s the point, I think. This ISN’T all SBC churches, so then I think it’s incumbent on SBC churches to speak out against this sort of thing (and the much worse stuff I’ll be talking about tomorrow). If you don’t want to be associated with it, then you have to get rid of it. And unfortunately, those of us on the outside can’t do anything about it. So I’m just praying that by raising this issue, SBC pastors will start to speak up. Because that’s the only way that real change will happen!
Agreed
It was an issue in my household. And I grew up Episcopalian. My Mom was badly abused (almost killed twice) and the Priest, a trained psychologist, told her that it was God’s will that she remain with him. I participated in Fundamentalist churches for decades from the time of being saved at 17 until about 60. I saw this over and over. There preference for male opinion. My ex-husband is a Preacher’s kid. Medical Doctor. Who abused me for 25+ years. When I finally could not take it any longer, I walked out. Yet, I was the bad person, dishonoring God. He was asked to do several programs after our separation and divorce. I was also asked by the women of the church to lead a program. Guess who’s told to go ahead and guess who was told that I could not because I was separated ad going through a divorce and did not make a good example. The kicker is that 4 years AFTER our divorce was final, my now ex, was arrested for 142 counts of sexual assault going back over 11 years. He was assaulting his patients. He ended up losing his medical license after 4 years of investigation to validate the charges. But his church? They did not believe the charges and is still in good standing, married to his second wife (less than 6 months after our divorce was final). I was the failure in this marriage, not him. My kids, unfortunately have lost the most. Needless to say, none of us attend church any longer.
Oh, Judy, i’m so sorry. So, so sorry. And these churches are NOT following the gospel. Look at what Jesus said when He launched His ministry. This is what He said He was specifically called to do (Luke 4:18-19):
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
That sounds like someone who will stand up for the abused–the oppressed. If a church is not standing up for the oppressed, then I have to wonder if that church is honestly following Jesus.
But let me please say this: not all churches are like this. Really and truly. Two weeks ago our pastor at our church began his sermon on anger by talking about the reality and plague of domestic abuse, and how it was never acceptable, and how we need to stand up to it. So many pastors do get this. And so I’d just beg you, don’t give up on the real body of Christ. It’s hard to find a church that is good sometimes, but they are out there. So just pray, because Jesus honestly sees you, and He honestly loves you, and He wants you to be supported by others who truly know Him.
I realize what I just said could be taken differently than how I meant it so I will clarify. I am not trying to say that these attitudes don’t exist. I’m sure they do in both churches, and pastors. And that is sad. The SBC is giant, and those member churches and pastors reflect a very wide range of beliefs. That is not an excuse, it is just a fact. A fact that needs to be dealt with.
Yes, the SBC is a very interesting “denomination” in that it isn’t really a denomination. It’s more a loosely joined network of churches.
But that causes its own problems, because then there is no policing when someone like C.J. Mahaney remains a pastor in an SBC-affiliated church, despite covering up sexual abuse. There has to be a way to deal with this. And the SBC has removed churches who have put a female pastor in place. So they’ll remove churches if a woman is preaching the gospel, but when a pastor abuses teens in his congregation, or covers up abuse, the SBC says it doesn’t have the authority to remove pastors. That is a big problem that I’ll be addressing tomorrow.
I started by typing out a criticism of Camp’s “explanation” for his behaviour, including several Bible verses for reference, to point out how many ways that he sinned. I felt pretty good about myself for being so smart, knowing my Bible and certain that I was more holy and mature than this pastor since I would never stoop so low. I find myself easily getting angry at people who speak/act like this, and want them to be punished. But then I have to remind myself that we are all born with the same sin nature, and are tempted in different ways, and any of us could fall into this sin or worse but for the Grace of God. Sin is the real enemy, not the sinner, and Jesus bore the punishment for the sin of every Christian. We should pray (out of humility, not a sense of superiority) that all those who are caught up by this sin see the error in their ways by an encounter with God. It is a gift of grace when God reveals our sin to us so that we may repent and know him more. I hope that if (no – when) I get caught up in sin that others would do the same for me. I’m preaching to me, here.
I’m sorry that you and Julie Ann were disrespected like this. No matter where you stand on the topic of Biblical manhood/womanhood and gender roles/differences, that was unacceptable. I pray that the SBC conference leads to lasting change in addressing these issues.
Thanks, Anon. My real reason for bringing this up, again, is not about Steve Camp, but about the SBC. There are so many issues with how women are treated and how abuse is ignored, and we have to stand together to fight it. I am praying for a breakthrough this week!
Here’s what gets me – let’s say for just a moment that the verses from Timothy and Paul are meant to be taken literally and universally. It is entirely possible to have the right biblical answer and the wrong heart – and God looks at the heart.
Brothers in Christ – it is not possible for you to fail to observe God’s design for women. You are not women. Therefore any rules or laws specific to women (if there are any) don’t apply to you. You have a pretty comfortable seat in this debate – because you are focused on a “speck that is not in your own eye”.
Be careful, then, that your eyes are not getting logged. Even if you ARE correct – women should never lead, should always submit, cannot divorce, etc….if that makes you feel “lucky” or “proud” or “superior” – you need to check your heart because something evil has taken root.
The attitude I hear from males who take the ultra-conservative stance on women’s roles does not reflect a heart attitude of serving God, being concerned for the salvation of women, or even righteous anger – it smacks of pride. You should be very careful when you take this stance that you are not merely protecting men, and not assuming roles that don’t belong to you.
What I hear is that “if women don’t stay in their place, men will not be able to be men anymore”. Great news! God doesn’t give any of us a “pass” based on someone ELSE’S sin (if women are in fact sinning). Even if there were not a righteous woman left on earth, God’s grace would be sufficient and you could go right on being righteous men! Heave a big sigh a relief!
Please remember, even if you are successful at forcing another person to do a righteous thing against their will – you will have accomplished nothing for God’s kingdom, because you did not win a heart or a soul. You might as well force-feed communion to an atheist.
In the meantime, a good rule of thumb might be to spend a little more time praying, writing, and speaking about God’s role for you – as a man, and as a special, individual child of God – than you do wondering about God’s plan for women. God already knows His plan for women and He’ll be faithful to complete it.
PS- These ladies weren’t being emotional. But! There is nothing in the Bible prohibiting being emotional. There ARE a few verses regarding those who are hard-hearted. Perhaps too much emotion is preferable to a heart of stone?
PS – Keith – thank you very much for giving your input. I understand completely that the fellas can’t and shouldn’t always jump in every time a twitter troll takes a wild tear – but I see the “husband request” very frequently across loads of prominent Christian women and it was encouraging to see your response.
Oh, Sarah, I love this all so much. 🙂 (Or is that me being emotional?)
Thanks Sheila – I’ve been very blessed by your family and your writing and I do think all this “stirring the pot” is evidence of the Holy Spirit working in our churches.
I don’t think your comment was emotional – but I suppose I should double check with my husband to know for sure. LOL
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Sarah, I LOVE this:
Even if there were not a righteous woman left on earth, gods grace would be sufficient and you could go right on being righteous men!
THIS! ^^^
Thanks Sarah- this comment is perfection!
Sarah, I have read and re-read your comment. And I want to cheer and fist bump you every time I read it. I think we could be great friends. Some would say that sarcasm is not from God but you have clearly demonstrated that it is one of your spiritual gifts. 😉
I am not so rich as to have too many friends – thank you J! 🙂
The way that Steve Camp talked about submission and men/women and so on is reprehensible and I surely hope the SBC will clean house. What bugged me almost as much about his tweeting was how sanctimonious and patronizing he came off. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt but I’ve read the tweets about four times and I can’t come up with any positive way to describe it. “Oh, ladies, go have your coffee and let the big people talk about this, tra-la” as he pats them on the head, is basically how he sounds. What a #(*$&# (I have several words I’d like to put in there but I’ll refrain because I have unparalleled self-control) Like, I’ll sit and listen to your wrong opinion about all this but saying things like “It was epic” and all that “A debate would be nice :-)”.. barf. I did go to one of the links and at least it’s not all like that, but in the tweets here and others on Twitter, he is not speaking in a manner befitting one who should be seeking to be like Christ.
He also tweets or re-tweets more political stuff than I think is befitting to a pastor but that could just be me.
I totally agree with you. And I agree with your last paragraph, too. The political stuff sounds like pride as well. How does this advance the gospel of Jesus?
I remain complementarian in my beliefs, but I am disgusted by Steve Camp’s responses. Up til now one of my favourite CD’s of all time has been his “Mercy in the Wilderness”, but seeing his current mindset may ruin my enjoyment of it. I will prayerfully have to focus on the glorious truths he communicates and not the man doing the communicating.
Thanks Sheila .
I know, it’s so sad. So very, very sad. I loved his music, too.
Yay Sarah!
Sheila, your husband is so right! We shouldn’t need to state these things that he explains!
Never liked his music anyway…
His response to your daughter is ridiculous and angering. I have 2 (very young) girls, and to imagine a pastor responding to my daughter the way he responded to yours… well, my reaction certainly wouldn’t be calm. I’m impressed by how calmly, evenly, and effectively she responded to him.
I know. She was awesome. 🙂
Sorry you had to go through that. It is truly reprehensible and there will be a lot of “all men are like that” thoughts be created because of his grotesque negligence of his influence. Who knows how much discord this will stir.
Speaking of influence: a man with a rock star ego and a garage band following never ends well.
Oh, wow. I probably laughed too much at your last sentence. 🙂
I’m standing up, and giving Keith a slow clap of applause for his words in this matter. Thank the Lord that Pastor Camp’s behavior isn’t representative of most Christians.
I have a question, since my husband isn’t a believer, does his opinion still matter to Pastor Camp by simply being my husband? Or does he only think Christian men’s opinion matter? Hmm……
Oh, dear, Kelly, so many of my commenters are making me laugh today. I’m glad that you all are adding some levity to this, because I really needed it.
Or maybe you didn’t mean that to be funny. Oh, dear. Sometimes we just have to laugh anyway, don’t we?
No, I meant it to be funny. Figured you could use a chuckle!
Mr. Camp’s demeanor and comments smack of pure narcissism to me. My opinion. But I’m a female. What do I know.
Oh my. Just… wow. Thanks, Sheila, Rebecca, Julie Anne for tweeting and speaking up–those things take a lot of energy. Kevin, your post made me crack up. Loved it!
But seriously, yikes. Y’all were all spot on. It’s boggling my mind that not just once but over literally dozens of times over more than a day AND bringing his wife into it, that Camp continued to think this was a good way to pursue a “conversation” (which, as another commenter pointed out, is not conversation so much as head patting). The arrogance of it takes my breath away. I hope those in his congregation and denomination thoroughly take him to task for this.
But honestly, past all of that, it’s so incredibly sad. It’s sad, horrible, and very sexist for a man to think this way about women. How much more so for a woman to believe it about herself. It breaks my heart to see his wife’s tweet and know that many others agree with her. You’re not less in any possible way. None. Never. It’s not borne out by scripture or by experience, not in any possible way anywhere that women are somehow less intelligent or less worthy of speaking and doing the will of God. To think otherwise is a hideous lie from the pit of hell.
Amen, Hannah! I was saddened at how he brought his wife into it, too. He also brought radio personality Janet Mefferd into it, and I was sorry that she didn’t take the opportunity to reprimand Steve for how he was speaking about women. That could have done some good, but she remained silent.
To me, the message is: when you see or hear someone treating others like this, speak up! It emboldens others to speak up, and helps people know that they don’t have to take this.
THANK YOU! I think you handled yourselves well. “Pastor” Camp needs to be ashamed.
In fact, I am ashamed that years ago, as a fairly new Christian, I got deceived into believing this cow dung. Part of it was low self esteem. Part of it was bad teaching in a church. Part was trying to apply the Bible as literally as I can (but ignoring the full counsel of God). Thankfully YOU, dear sister, helped me see a more balanced and Biblical view.
Now this kind of thing disgusts me to no end. 🙁
Keep speaking out with your clear, Biblical, and insightful teaching on the topic of marriage. We appreciate you.
Oh, thank you, Kim! And may more women (and men) who are stuck in that terrible place that you were as well see the truth and FREEDOM in Christ.
I know many Southern Baptists who are nothing like this. But I made my comments that day, which concluded with this tweet back to Mr. Camp:
“See…why this? I don’t understand what you gain by saying that women, whom you do not know, are not educated, trained or knowledgeable. Do you know their background? And why would you say something like, ‘I am praying for their husbands now’? Thus implying that their husbands are mistreated or unfortunate in some way. When you don’t know anything about their marriages. It’s rather unnecessary to make any of the theological points you apparently want to make. Personal insults, at the very least, dilute your argument and, at worst, offend God.”
Good to hear from Keith! Even though you can certainly speak for yourself. 🙂
Exactly, J! And thanks for jumping in back then, too. What a week that was!
As a ‘Senior’ female, raised in /attending mostly patriarchal denominations until recently, I have lived most of my life in ‘submission’ to the commonly-held interpretation of the Genesis text that refers to Eve as the ‘weaker’ human, ‘gullible’ and prone to temptation by the ‘evil one’…but your experience with an ‘old-school’ pastor brings up this question that has never been put to rest by all the years of Bible-study and preaching around the subject…Why is the focus of ‘responsibility’ for sin entering the otherwise perfect Creation placed wholly on the Woman, and NONE on the Man/her husband WHO REACHED OUT HIS HAND AND TOOK THE FRUIT AND ATE IT ALSO..! Where is it written that he exercised his ‘headship’ role, corrected his wife’s action, refused to partake, sheltered her and guided her to safety OR sought out Their Creator-GOD and asked for HELP?! (Oh, I ‘forgot’…’Real men’ don’t DO THAT!!!) Which is why, after 15 years of marriage to a ‘good Christian man’, I’m happily/thankfully living as one of Father-GOD’s ‘unmarried’ daughters!
Oh, Ivana, you’re right–the teaching is very warped. I hope that you have found some freedom in Christ recently after your searching, because it is there!
As I sit here reading this I am packing my house to move forward because I finally realized after 15 years of abuse my kids and I were in danger. He’s a pastor as well…. Over the years I was told he has been called by God, you need to listen to his teachings and submit. Another pastor told me he was concerned about his reputation in the community and couldn’t help. Another pastor told me he didn’t know who to believe so he couldn’t help me.
If you can’t trust a pastor for help who do you go to? I finally went to the police.
As far as the SBC claims, I had never put it together until reading your article some things that had been said to me many years ago. I was dating an SBC youth pastor, who was studying to be a pastor. He date raped me and when I went to my youth pastor he told me it was all my fault. A couple years ago I was back home visiting and I was talking to this youth pastor and his wife about my marriage. He told me it was never ok to divorce…. Back to the youth pastor who raped me, I was not the first, he was having an affair with the organist and he had a second girlfriend that was pregnant around the time he raped me. He went on to become a youth pastor at a fairly large church. All of this information was known by several pastors in the area.
The cover ups are not new.
I’m so sorry. So, so sorry. I hope that you have lots of help around you as you recover from your abusive marriage, and all the bad teachings you’ve had.
You are precious to Jesus. Your children are precious. I’m so sorry that you were never shown that–that you were shown instead that you are to blame when others hurt you. I pray that you will find the real Jesus wrapping His arms around you right now.
In our ministry, it is pointed out how Adam gave control over to the adversary. And how Jesus Christ is the one who gave it back to all of us-women and men, who are born again of God’s seed.
I do not see any of the behaviors of Camp amongst our men. I am very thankful for this.
We have women, who teach and are revered by everyone. God’s Word teaches that we are to move His Word as well.
I have taught, in our home fellowship and love doing so.
That’s how my former pastors treated my wife. They couldn’t even look at her when they were talking to her, they looked at me. Fragile men, I feel disgusted at the harm the cause and continue to cause in the name of Jesus.
“Fragile men”. That’s what I often wonder, too!
I have been a Southern Baptist all my adult life. Mr. Camp does not speak for the rest of us!!! That whole diatribe was just a jerk gone wild. Just this morning, I was listening to an old sermon by Adrian Rogers (passed away, but was a Southern Baptist). He was specifically speaking to this topic of submission. Husband is supposed to love his wife as God loves the Church and God never forces or demands us to follow Him or do anything he says. And basically if you think you have to force it, you are not a Biblical husband leader. In nearly 30 years, I have never come across a guy like Mr. Camp (can’t bring my self to call him Pastor).
Absolutely. What a total jerk. Made a full boat fool of himself. Just a paltry, pathetic effort.
The link to the Twitter thread does not seem to be working. Would love to see the original debate.
Thanks.
These types of men always silence women by “reasoning” that Satan deceived Eve, therefore all women “are easily deceived.” They fail to understand that Eve was deceived–i.e. lied to, tricked, by a liar. A intelligent, honest, godly person can be deceived by a skilled liar. Eve actually told the truth in the Garden when she said that “The serpent tricked me, so I ate.”
Adam, on the other hand, knowingly disobeyed God’s command and then he shifted the blame onto both Eve and God. In my opinion, direct disobedience is worse than being deceived–and it seems the New Testament agrees when it says that sin entered the world through Adam. Evil men are still shifting the blame to women today.
I think that’s an excellent point, TJ! Personally, I think both genders are prone to sin, and no gender is closer to God than the other. What’s important is that all of us recognize our fallibility, remain humble, and seek God. That’s really it. If we all did that, we wouldn’t have these kinds of problems. But some would rather maintain a place of power on earth, and Jesus already had some things to say about that.
My husband and I had a dear male friend, who in his 90s, enlightened me and rocked my world. This man was the holder of 3 different PhDs, and had written and edited many books over his lifetime. One of his doctorates was in psychology, and he had been a people-watcher all his life.
I had created and was running a program for men convicted of domestic violence offenses. I asked our friend, Jay, why men beat up women. This was a serious question, and I have given a lot of thought to it.
He thought for several minutes before asking if I really and truly wanted to know. I assured him that I did. I had always been raised to give others the benefit of the doubt. When he told me his belief, formed over many years, it was so bizarre to my way of thinking, that I reflexively said, No! I simply couldn’t accept what he’d said.
“Women are superior. Men know this. They feel insecure and it really makes them mad.”
That was over a decade ago and I have now had time to process this. My belief is that men and women are both intelligent, but in different ways. Neither gender is superior, but we were designed to complement each other; we need each other. And yet, there is something in the hard-wiring of males that makes them want to be king of the mountain. This is not a bad thing; it is what motivates men to want to protect and provide their woman and their family. It simply needs to be balanced and moderated.
When it gets out of balance, bad things happen. Mens’ biggest bugaboo is feeling insecure. “Am I good enough?” When a man feels insecure, and he senses that women have skills and abillities that he does not have, it is a major threat to his position, and whether he fights with words or with his fists, the message is the same. “I am (supposed to be) king of the mountain, NOT YOU!! So get back down there where you belong.”
I pity Pastor Steve Camp because he likely has an issue with his family of origin in which he didn’t get on well with mom, and dad may not have modeled for him what it means to be a true man, protecting and providing for his family with respect, goodness, acceptance, gentleness, and all things of good report.
As a counselor, I have seen this many times. I truly hope he can get some help, because clearly he is not happy in his life, or he would not have such a strong need to put others down. Maybe he should have stuck to his music, as it sounds as though he was more in tune with God and his own heart at that time.
I followed this thread right as it was ending and was astounded at the lack of respect that Pastor Camp showed for everyone who commented, myself included. I have witnessed some downright awful, ugly, hateful debates online.
This one was the opposite, save for Pastor Camp. Sheila and Ann and everyone who commented (I myself left a polite comment and was blocked) was so polite and reasonable and seeking to have an in-depth discussion leading to a deeper understanding of God’s Word…except Pastor Camp. Very disappointing to see a pastor behave this way.
My dearest childhood friend had an abusive father. We didn’t know until all of us were in college. I’ll never forget my friend calling me at 2 A.M. from college, telling me everything. Her dad abused her mother heartlessly, both physically and verbally, as well as emotionally. My friend was spared the physical abuse, for which I praise God…but they attended a small SBC as well. A church that my family attempted to attend, but because we are a mixed race family (my dad is Mexican, and my mom is Caucasian) they would not even speak to my dad and so we left, and have attended a non-denominational church for many years.
We didn’t even know about my friend’s abusive dad until everything came to a head when I was 19, and my friends’ mom left because she feared for her life. She had stayed with him for 20 years at that point.
And to my eternal DISGUST, many at their old church SUPPORTED the abusive man and slandered my friend’s mom for leaving – he was beating her and they still say she should have stayed.
She moved away and is happily safe and remarried to a good, gentle, Godly man, for which again I praise God!!
But the point of me mentioning this story is…I thought all of that was an isolated incidenct of a church so far lost from the Word of God, but seeing everything happening with the SBC at large has broken my heart, to see that SO MANY have experienced what my friend and her mom went through.
The whole experience made my friend then from the Lord, and it is so devastating.
I know that there’s no black &a white and that there are good SBC churches out there….
But it is nonetheless disturbing to see so *much* corruption in one group ….I pray God would cleanse and forgive and bring justice for all the victims in all of these situations.
Thank you to Sheila and Keith for speaking the truth in love…I appreciate you all so much. Having seen someone I care about so much go through this kind of abuse from their church, I appreciate you all even more – Jesus calls all of us to protect and defend the oppressed, the victims, those who cannot defend themselves. His actions whilst on earth affirm this over and over.
Thank you both for behaving in such a Christlike manner💜
Oh, thank you, Hannah! I so appreciate the encouragement, here and on Twitter (I remember when you were blocked!)
And I’m sorry about your friend. So sorry. I pray that as she gets older she’ll see that her church did not represent the real Jesus, and that she’ll find the real Jesus.
I am afraid that there are far too many pastors like Steve Camp out there. Many have these small little congregations, but they have a strong hold on them, convincing everybody that every criticism is a spiritual attack from Satan, and that they need to stand firm against the evils of this world. It’s almost like criticism is welcomed because it increases their standing. I’m sure that’s what he’s telling everyone this week. But God is not mocked; and ultimately He will prevail. I just pray for those who are lost in this in the meantime!
Hannah, I am so sorry for both your friends experience and yours at this church. I attend a SBC church and I can tell you that would not have happened in our church. Up until a few weeks ago we had a mission family living in our missions house for three years. We embraced this family with everything we had including supporting two of their children who are staying in the area after the family returned home. Just so happens the husband is Mexican and the wife is American. They are greatly missed and were such a blessing to us. We also have a few mixed race couples in our congregation. Very usually as the area we live in has very few minorities. We have our problems, I think it would be a lie to say that no church has some kind of problems. But we love and don’t allow the behavior you witnesses to happen.
At this point we have been without a permanent pastor for four years so we aren’t in a position to send anyone to the convention and I’m not sure we are even actively participating in any communication with them at this point. We are in the process of merging with a larger church and I know they won’t stand for this. The visiting pastors this church has sent to us have been very responsive when I speak up in meetings about concerns I have, even to the point to coming to speak with me after to thank me for bringing up issues that others didn’t want to talk about.
Sheila, I have to thank you and your fellow marriage and sex female Christian bloggers for helping me become a stronger woman. I would have never been able to speak about issues of concern (these aren’t even related to the teaching of sexuality in the church so not hard subjects) had I not gotten more comfortable speaking about tough issues that do relate to sex with my husband. I feel so much more confident in my ability to express myself when it comes to hot topics than I did before following all of your wonderful women.
For years I have been a proud member of the SBC. While I was not raised Baptist, I happily joined the Baptist church as an adult. I attend our local church with my husband and two children. I wish everyone who has gained a negative opinion of Baptist as a result of this exchange (and unfortunately so many others) could visit my church. We are a beautiful picture of God’s kingdom. We have a wonderful Spanish speaking ministry for local Hispanics. We have beautiful families with all races (and yes even mixed races…*gasp*) in attendance every week. Our lead pastor openly praises our female Children’s Ministry Leader for her tireless work. (She really is amazing.) I have never felt less than or unimportant because I am a woman. Yes, I believe women are created differently from men with unique gifts, but I feel like my gifts are celebrated in our church, not looked down upon. It just makes me sad that because a few ignorant and rude people are willing to yell louder than the rest that their wrong and distorted opinion is the one everyone sees.
I think that’s such an important point, J–I think a lot of SBC churches are like yours!
But then, if you are part of the SBC, it’s important that you and your church stand up against the horrible things that are happening in the Southern Baptist church as a whole. Because I really think that it’s only by churches like yours standing up for what’s right and true that the denomination as a whole will listen.
Wouldn’t it be wonderful if the same things that could be said about your church could be said for the SBC as a whole? That’s what the goal should be. It’s time to call the over-arching denomination to more.
Oh I agree. Clearly change needs to happen. And I think that it will. I guess what I was trying to say is I’m sad that so many people think this is what the SBC is really about. And I just don’t think that’s true. A few bad apples don’t have to ruin the whole bushel. 🙂. Now…do the bad apples need to be dealt with? Yes…absolutely. And I pray that our leaders will put systems in place to do that more effectively that has been done in the past. I don’t know if it’s poor reporting systems, fear, or just a lack of clear direction of exactly how to execute discipline when it’s needed that had historically been the problem. But I agree with you that there is a problem. I just don’t want THIS to be the picture that everyone walks away with of the SBC and more importantly, the Church as a whole. And I think in many cases that’s what’s happening. It makes me sad because it’s just not the whole truth.
Steve also seems to think coffee is what is needed to get the brain going. Wonder how he would have replied to if I had responded with “I don’t drink coffee so what advice do you have for me?”
Seriously though, he was proving the caricature of the man who doesn’t listen and always has to be right and get the last word. But that’s probably what he believes a man is supposed to be anyway.
It has been my experience to a degree that men who speak and act contemptibly toward women are actually controlled by women. What I mean is that the man has unwittingly allowed porn or an actual woman to control his mind and thoughts. He feels constantly judged (especially by women) for what is going on inside him. A believing man may then “hate” women for “doing that TO him,” much like the struggle in Romans 7 in which we do that which we would not do.
I was amazed at the eyes of Mr. Paige in the link about speaking of a woman’s body. He showed the clear signs of infidelity that I have seen. A man’s eyes show into the heart. I used to be able to look at a man’s eyes and know if he was faithful to his wife. I failed that in my own marriage by believing words–even when they didn’t make sense with what I saw. We are still together, but it’s not easy. I forgave and stand firm in the grace of God.
Men who have allowed themselves to be in bondage to sin and self hate those who see it in them, not believing it to be SO obvious. May God allow us all to see ourselves in truth, and repent.
Mr Camp has had other disrespectful run-ins with fellow believers in situations where he is challenged. http://apologiaradio.com/steve-camp-gets-the-boot-from-apologia-radio/
And LOL his lyrics quoted above only talked about men being equal, not mankind.
I noticed that last part too, Janean! 🙂
Sheila,
I support everything you and your husband say in this article. One thing I have learned to do in life is never debate. Debates are meant to be won or lost. I will not debate, especially with people who are closed minded to the option, that they may be wrong. I will DISCUSS almost anything with someone who is willing to learn and to teach. Debates meant to be won or lost, discussing is a time for learning and seeing how others view issues.
If you new my story and how deep rooted I am in SBC, you would understand how saddened I am to see what is happening, but I’m also not surprised. I left SBC about 10 years ago after seeing too much, hearing to much and knowing too much about big names in the SBC. The southern baptist have done some wonderful things for the kingdom of God. One thing they have never done well, is allow dying programs to end and give them a proper burial, i.e. RA’s, GA’s, awana, and many more. The SBC is dying and should be given a proper burial and saluted for its accomplishments, although not perfect, it had its day and the sun is setting on it. God used it in some powerful ways to help spread the gospel, but I believe because of egos and mistreatment of people that He has taken his hand off of the SBC.
My heart is saddened by what it’s become. I’m sorry for your interaction, but unfortunately too many SBC pastors lead their families and their churches through immature intimidation. Seen it first hand. God bless