This week, in my hometown of Toronto, a loner rented a van and rammed into pedestrians, killing 10 people and wounding 14 others.
While I don’t live in Toronto now, I grew up there. I’m familiar with Yonge & Finch (where it happened). This one hit close to home, literally, as so many others have hit close to home for many of you.
When stuff like this happens, the debate inevitably turns to guns, or mental illness. And that’s not what I want to talk about here (PLEASE let’s not do the gun control debate in the comments, okay? Guns were not involved here and there were still multiple fatalities. That’s not what I’m trying to talk about.)
Instead, I want to talk about this thread that we often hear about how these mass murderers were loners who were rejected. This guy belonged to an “incel” group, which stood for involuntary celibacy. Girls wouldn’t give him the time of day. He was lonely and angry about it.
The Montreal Massacre, which occurred December 6, 1989, when a gunman burst into an engineering class, lined up the men and women separately, and gunned down all the women, was similarly lonely and mad that women had rejected him. Pretty much all the mass murderers have been “loners”.
What are we supposed to do about that? I do think, as a society, we have to ask what steers kids in this direction. We have to ask if there’s something we can do to identify people who may be dangerous and reach out to them earlier. But here’s where things get dicey. I read this comment on the New York Times site, and I thought it had interesting insight:
There is often…reporting about their status of a “loner” or “being awkward” in school and, I think, an implied link that … if the kids around him reached out more this could have been avoided. I can say that as a girl in my school years, I often did reach out to kids, often boys, who sat alone or who were awkward. Many times this resulted in regret on my part–they, being socially awkward, did not have much emotional intelligence or boundaries and I would have to extricate myself from the “friendship” or be endlessly bothered or harassed. I don’t think there is a person alive who did not feel lonely or left out sometime during their schooling years, but always reporting about how the person (man) was “lonely” or “socially isolated” in school indirectly places blame on the other students, often girls. The cliche of the “snobby cheerleader” who often gets what she deserves (humiliation) in almost any teen movie or show reinforces this. Often times, children stay away from or shun other kids they know are dangerous. This is different than bullying and is an adult problem to be handled by professionals. Kids should not be held responsible, directly or indirectly, for the actions of a classmate.
I tend to agree. Bullying a classmate is different from avoiding a classmate who seems like they may be dangerous or awkward.
I remember reaching out to loners in high school, too, and then regretting it as they stuck to me like glue and asked me out every day.
I want to be Jesus’ hands and feet in this world. We know that Jesus loves all, and that His eyes are especially on the loners. But sometimes people are loners because they are simply nerds or socially awkward. Other times people are loners because they seem dangerous (and they start stalking anyone who gets close).
So what are we to do?
I asked Rebecca to chime in today with some thoughts about this since she was a pretty social kid in high school. Here’s what she thinks:
When tragedy like this occurs, it’s natural instinct to try to figure out why it happened so we can prevent it from happening again.
That’s why people are focusing on the “loner” part of this story–the problem was just that he didn’t have any friends?! That’s an easy fix! Just get kids to talk to each other more!
But I don’t agree with that necessarily. And there are 3 main reasons why:
Many of these “loners” are loners for a reason
It sounds harsh, but it’s true. Looking back on my own youth group and work experience in high school, there are two groups of marginalized people: the people who are just a little odd, and don’t quite fit in while they’re in high school; and the people who are downright scary or uncomfortable to be around.
The kids who were just a little odd, I had no problems being around. I made sure they felt welcomed, I actually became quite good friends with some of them! (I think the argument could be made that in Jr. High, I was one of the weird kids!)
But the scary ones were another story.
At my youth group, we had an over-night event once where a new guy showed up to participate in. He was scary. Really scary. I remember realizing that I was in a room alone with him at one point and becoming overwhelmed with the feeling that I needed to find someone else pronto. I grabbed onto two of the older guys who were my friends and told them, “You’re sticking with me for the rest of the group time” and they acted as my security whenever that guy was around.
Within a few years, my impressions about him had been confirmed many times over.
When we talk about having to reach out to the “loners” in high schools, youth groups, or whatever it is, I think there needs to be a difference between the “loners” who are just a little bit odd and the “loners” who are loners because they are really scary people no one wants to hang out with. And let’s recognize that there is a difference.
Kids need to be told that they are allowed to have discernment about who they hang out with.
Discernment is not the same as prejudice. Saying, “I’m not going to talk to him because he’s really nerdy and will make me look uncool” is totally different than saying, “I’m not going to talk to him because I don’t feel safe when I’m around him”.
Kids shouldn’t have to talk to everyone. In fact, with the amount of sexual assault, drugs, and binge-drinking that goes on in high school, kids should be encouraged to be wise in who they hang out with or talk to.
We need to be honest about evil and what it looks like.
We talk about these horrible, evil acts like this attack as if it’s the result of mental illness.
And that bothers me.
I struggle with anxiety. One of my best friends struggles with severe depression. I had a professor who has OCD. Many of the people in my church struggle with mental illnesses, too.
But none of us are evil people. None of us would ever even consider hurting someone else.
All this talk about how if people had just talked to him more maybe this wouldn’t have happened misses out on the root of it all, in my opinion. I think the root of all of this is that evil people don’t attract nice people to themselves, are actually unwise to spend time with, and will do evil things. I’m not sure it’s really anything other than that.
I think we need to start talking about evil again, and what it looks like. Maybe evil acts aren’t the result of mental illness, but maybe it’s just that where there is evil we will also find mental illness, which is why the conclusion is often drawn that mental illness must have made them do it. I don’t have a fully fleshed-out theory of this yet, so I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments, but I think we need to accept the fact that sometimes, evil is evil. And when we agree on that, we can figure out how to recognize and deal with the evil in our midst.
I’m not saying that there’s nothing we can do, or that we shouldn’t be trying to help these kids. I just think it is unfair to put the responsibility on teenagers when this is a systemic issue, and one that children should not be responsible for.
Whatever your opinion is on this issue, please pray for Canada right now. Pray for the families who lost loved ones and those who were injured. Pray for the fear that so many people are facing right now.
But I also want to know your opinion–what do you think of my three points? Do you agree, or disagree? I haven’t fully decided what I believe on these issues yet, and I’d like your input.
Sheila Wray Gregoire has been married for 29 years and happily married for 24! She loves traveling around North America with her hubby in their RV, giving her signature "Girl Talk" about sex and marriage. And she's written 7 books. About sex and marriage. See a theme here? Plus she knits. Even in line at the grocery store.
This makes me mad! I feel this is more of the “rape culture”. That women somehow “owe” men something and when the man dosent get what they want, they get mad and lash out. And then it’s the women’s “fault” for not giving the man his “owed” attention. This makes me scared for what our young women face
In grief counseling, I learned that one of the ways we deal with our grief is to reason it away. We want to make sense of the tradgedy and so we find an explanation for it. I think this plays into the jump to find an answer, assign blame, and unfortunately also blame the victim (which often happens in sexual abuse cases). To fully accept that this is a sinful world where we are never completely safe is just too hard for our human minds most of the time. So we look for ways to make this untrue. it comes out the worst after a tradgedy when what people may need most is time and space to truly grieve and mourn.
That’s a great point, Gwen–it is really tempting to reason things away. And I’m just not sure there is always a clear-cut reason.
Gwen, I think you say it well when you say this is a sinful world and we will never be complete safe.
I think the truth is we all have evil hearts, and I do well to look at that guy and remember, “there, but for the grace of God, go I.”
My mom always talks about such tragedies and wonders what must be wrong with that person to be able to do that. I just think we all have that in our hearts but God gives us the ability to choose good instead. We live in a fallen world and not everything is preventable or avoidable.
Why should it be the girl who reaches out to the dangerous loner? Why not strong young men who are secure in who they are and can positively influence others? Why not grown adults? Help the dangerous loner through his problems (or get him professional help), but for pity sake, society should stop blaming the nice girls who didn’t reach out because they didn’t feel safe.
And how about we stop saying it can’t be the vaccines, the pharmaceuticals, the GMO foods, the prevalence of chemicals in every aspect of our lives and figure out why a generation of males are struggling to survive? We didn’t have these problems 50-60 years ago, so it is time to be honest about why we are seeing them now. Imagine what life will be like in another 50-60 years if we keep going in this direction.
Respectfully I disagree that we didn’t have these problems 50 years ago. Perhaps not to this scale, but there were crazy people then and there will be more to come. There are a lot of other variables that have changed in 50-60 years besides GMOs and vaccines, and I am just not sure GMOs and vaccines can be blamed for these murders any more than innocent teenagers can. Other things that have increased: internet access (meaning information is speed more freely, we can watch videos of mass murders, chat with people online about them, and learn how to commit murder – all of this information with a few clicks), violent video games and movies (desensitizing us to the violence and making it seem normal), pornography use has increased (teaching us that people are objects used for our pleasure), and many other factors. All I’m saying is that there are a lot of possibilities of things that have changed in 50 years. I don’t think you can just blame it on one thing.
Bethany, you are correct, we have had school shootings since our country was founded. However the number of deaths has increased dramatically. In the period 1900-1979 (80 years), we had 195 school deaths. From 1990-present (28 years), we have had 358 deaths. Something dramatic has shifted in our society and until we figure out what it is and correct the problem, it will only get worse. I never suggested there is a single cause, but it is time we stop burying our heads in the sand and saying it can’t be this, that or the other.
The population has increased, so that is a factor. As well, you have the copycat factor. The guy behind the van attack openly admired another “incel” mass killer. The Parkland shooter had been obsessed with becoming a school shooter. Things that horrify 99.99% of people inspire a few to act out evil.
No, no, and no, a girl should not be expected to reach out to a loner. As an older teen, I tried to be kind to a guy my age whom I hadn’t spoken to or acknowledge the existence of for 5 years — he had told me he was going to ask me out if I ever talked to him again when we were in our early teens — and I said ‘Hello’ as I walked by while home on a visit, thinking that in the intervening years he would have understood that I had absolutely no interest whatsoever. Nope. He wrote me a letter asking me out. (I was living in another country for college classes at the time.) I had to avoid him all over again and have never spoken to him since. This guy was one of my best friends’ brother, they lived across the street so you can imagine the awkwardness of gatherings, his family spent a lot of time with ours. My parents never forced me speak to him and for that I’m very thankful. I can’t imagine what would have happened if they had and he was receiving the wrong message from my forced communication. As it was, it was embarrassing and pretty unbelievable that he hadn’t “gotten it” in 5 years!
If a girl feels uneasy about talking to someone, there is usually a reason for that gut feeling.
SO TRUE, Christie. I had some similar situations–which is why I wanted to write the post. It isn’t the girls’ responsibility if a guy doesn’t have good social skills, or makes them feel unsafe/crosses boundaries and makes them feel uncomfortable.
It is the parents of the loner who need to reach out to him, to communicate with him, to try to see what is going on. When that fails, it is the teachers and school counselors who need to do that. It is definitely not a task for the girls in the class, what a strange idea!
This is such a good question. The two Bible verses that come to me on some of these major events or major society issues are Eph 6:12 “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood…” and Pro 3:5 “…lean not on your own understanding”.
Evil is very much at work in the world, and obviously in this event. We make very foolish recommendations when we reduce evil to “mental illness” and focus on how to save the “flesh and blood” of the perpetrator using our own limited wisdom.
Imagine sending a teenage girl to go “be nice” to the poor lonely man living out by the tombs in Mark 5. Does anyone think that would have worked? Would that have calmed a legion of demons who couldn’t be bound even with chains? Ridiculous.
There is no human policy, program, or government that can rid us from evil, and that is horrifying news when something like this happens. Evil is simply more powerful that humanity. But not more powerful than God.
I think Rebecca’s response to sensing danger was accurate, but maybe the second step would have been to invite your two friends to join you in prayer for that person, paying specific mind to anything unseen.
Maybe this all sounds a little superstitious, but I think it’s far more reasonable than “nicing” or “Prozacing” people out of committing mass murder.
Great thoughts, Sarah–thanks for sharing. 🙂
For me, parents should check out their loner kids on how they are doing. Communication and relationship of parents and kids will greatly affect a kids behavior.
Yep! Agreed.
Most likely a teenage male is a loner because he is being dominated by fear of female rejection. He lacks confidence to exercise initiative to overcome obstacles and establish a relationship with a female. If a female reaches out to him in this condition he will most likely respond with hyper-attraction to the female. He will be forever her “child” if she falls into this trap. The loner male teenager needs a male coach before it’s too late.
These things are not to be taken lightly! You must understand that people’s troubles have 3 causes only: biologic-neurological, spiritual (as a result of losing the connection with God), and troubles caused by demonic influences. What is more, these 3 also influence one another. This is why modern atheistic psychology fails to diagnose people properly and practically take action for the better.
It’s true! (and some may feel offended), but more and more people are weak within themselves and are falling to the dark side because they reject God (because it’s cool), they have no role model to measure against so they choose the world, especially nowadays when communities are ground by individualism, lies, envy, hatred, financial instability, comparison with the Joneses, displaying your life social media (the greatest affliction for extremely many who feel less fortunate in life!), money-orientated spirit, and the turning to occult practices (they promise power) – all these leading to depression. It’s paramount for people to understand that behind all the enumerated above stands an evil spirit which is evil essence and energy, and willing to win a human no matter the costs!
I agree with what you wrote and I would like to stress that too much and too often the truth is spoken half-way, things are sweetened so as not to offend others who indeed feel guilty of poor choices they’ve made, but don’t want others to know and refuse to own up. You must call a spade a spade. What is not assumed cannot be healed, massacres like that happen, people are murdered and more than anything, the light of Logos which is in all all human who comes into this world grows dimmer and dimmer!
Condolences to those who lost someone in the tragic event and health to those who were injured!
C, the fundamental biological cause is that males are wired to “be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.” This Creator-implanted biological force is centered around marriage and family building. Foolishly our culture is dismissive of marriage and prioritizes career. As a result marriage is delayed and subordinated to college, or rejected altogether.. Many males are left to flounder and are not chanelled into marriage. They lack children which generally instills a future orientation. Nevertheless the biological force remains intact and irresistible. If not channeled into marriage it will find its way out, either through sexual sin or violence.
I couldn’t agree more.
I agree that when safety is in question, a girl can’t just reach out. But then what do you do? Yes, parents and family members should be addressing the issues for the problem kids. But half the reason (or more!) that they are problem kids is because their family doesn’t or can’t.
I believe evil exists. But I also believe that with God, anyone can change and be brought back. As Jesus’s hands and feet, the answer isn’t to do nothing.
But do you leave it to adults in school administration or at-risk programs? Yes, adults who are experienced in counseling troubled teens can make a difference, but if that is a troubled student’s only support, does that really keep them from feeling like an outsider?
I don’t have any good solutions, but it seems like peers should be part of the picture.
I see your point, Kacey. But I still believe it’s unfair to put the responsibility on other kids–because that’s what they are, they’re just children!
Maybe we need more clear “red flags” for teachers and support staff to look out for? Because from my experience, it’s really scary to be a teenage girl and have a guy who doesn’t seem to understand boundaries semi-stalking you. And when you tell adults and they say, “He just likes you!” it doesn’t make it any less creepy or scary!
But you’re right, often there are family factors at play which make the family taking care of the kid less likely. So I’m not sure what to do, either!
Maybe the answer is to teach everyone about the red flags. Teachers, coaches, other staff, and the kids should all have a basic understanding of what to be looking out for. But the kids job is NOT to try and help – their job is to “flag” the kid to a teacher so that adults can step up and reach out to the kid in need.
Peers can only be part of the picture if the loner kid understands it’s not a dating situation. Which is usually easier if it’s a same-sex support. A socially awkward guy who gets attention from a girl can become awfully fixated (ask me how I know!).
Hey Becca – I like your evil instead of mental illness thought. I also think its not a childs/teen problem to deal with scary people/kids. What I am most interested in talking to you about is the thought that mental illness is a result of evil. I think about the thought that God sends confusion when we are evil like in the Old testement with Gideon’s Army in Judges. From that perspective I agree with your thoughts. From a personal standpoint I do not like your theory at all. I struggle with bipolar and apperently have since I was young. I did not sign up for it. In fact there are a lot of things I did not sign up for. Your theory would then pin me as evil just for existing. I will say that I just didnt have the guidance in my life to be able to make the next right choices early on and then those poor choices became more poor choices for most of my life. What I have learned is that when I have a problem it is a spiritual problem. If I work on the spiritual aspect of my issue the rest has an opportunity to Fall in if I work at it. So my state of being is based on my fit spirtual condition. However I can tell you when I am in hypoma and or manic of degrees (which I seem unable to control when that is) it is SUPER HARD to find GOD. I do think its possibel as I have been working on that. What I think about the issue of mass murders of the type that is becoming all to common is this; whether it be evil, mental illness or drugs or some cult or religious rebelion; if the person chooses that evil path regardless of what causes it, if they are not disrupted with help or get help early enough it certainly will manifest to insanity that has grand consequences to His fellow man. Spirtual intervention is my answer but physical and emotional could be helpful as well. The bottom line is if the person wont receive help they are hopelesss and potentially destine for bad stuff whatever that may be. Thats how I see it anyway. Interesting today. Thanks
Hey, Phil!
Oh I definitely don’t mean that if you have mental illness, you’re evil–I struggle with generalized anxiety disorder and have experienced panic disorder and MDE myself. What I mean is more of the argument “all poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles.” Not everyone with mental health issues are evil, but I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we find that evil people show signs of mental health issues. These things happen from a variety of reasons–same way you wouldn’t assume that everyone with depression just had their parent die, just because a small subset of people who are depressed are experiencing that because of the loss of a parent. Does that make sense?
I think your perspective on this is really interesting, Phil. Thanks for sharing.
Yeah it makes sense Becca. I see your thought process. So would you say God allows weeds in our garden just like he allows mental illness in our brain? Yet if I keep after my garden I/it can be fruitful, but if I happen to be selling my fruit and cheating people then the weeds might be of a different variety. Maybe even disease happens because the weeds are so thick. Most likely this seems to happen because I am too busy cheating people and chasing money; but is it? Something like that?
Taking that a little further; Am I damaging myself or is God punishing me? I think that Gods punishment involves this: When I disobey Him (no matter the reason) my mind is built in such a way that I become confused and I end up harming myself and others. Straying off topic maybe a bit. Sorry – I want to try not to do that while your Mom is away. I tend to do that 😕 and I am working on that.
Very complicated. All of us come from different backgrounds and in truth outside of parents and those that are believers and attend church, our schools have the the ability to mentor kids to promote good behavior. It starts in kindergarten of not permitting mental and physical bullying.
My own parents weren’t emotionally connected and I doubt if both actually loved each other, but instead what I witnessed was colliding.
To understand what is going on inside the attackers mind after the fact is too late. But one thing is certain, there is violence in TV, at the movies, in our video games, mental and physical bullying in schools and of course many kids come from abuses and bigotries at home.
As a mom of a “weird kid” loner girl, we are struggling with this now. She thrives in school and in other situations and has plenty of friends there, but at her youth group, she’s the loner. And the other kids won’t let her in their tight circle. Most of them all go to the same school and she doesn’t.
So this is a double edged sword to just swear off all loners. Some are genuine good kids that just aren’t allowed in.
Exactly, Erin–and that’s where the whole “discretion” and “discernment” part of the conversation comes in. In Jr. High, I was the loner but definitely didn’t pose a threat to anyone! And in high school, because I had been through that, I made an effort to talk to the “different” kids. But I didn’t really talk to the ones who seemed dangerous or made me uncomfortable. That’s why I think teaching kids the difference from early on is so important–because not fitting in with cliques doesn’t mean you’re dangerous.
Erin,
My youngest daughter dealt with that while she was going to youth group when we moved to Nor-Cal. Makes me wish we discovered a different church to attend, but she minimized the rejection she was experiencing until two years later.
We tend to think that Christian kids are above being click-ish but they aren’t. And if I had to do it over I would’ve checked with the youth pastor before we began attending that church to discuss with him/her how they guide kids to be more welcoming.
The tricky part for my daughter is coming into a new church and trying to fit in, with kids that have had established friendships for years.
Then as their desire to connect with these kids mounts, then it looks as if our kids are being a bit aggressive. My daughter is beautiful and intelligent, but coming from a rural Alaska village and her free-spirit tendencies made her different from the other girls, though she had an easier time making friends in the High School.
I caught a bit of CBC radio’s call in show ‘Cross Country Check Up’ yesterday. The topic was whether the government should regulate online discussions about hateful subjects, in response to last week’s van attack. One expert opinion on the show was from Dr James Cantor, a psychologist, who suggested we need to spend more time that teaching boys social skills. Our modern society puts more emphasis on those skills rather than skilled labour. Girls are naturally better and receive more practice in creating relationships. His point was that boys could use more practice interacting in positive ways with girls, not just learning about relationships in isolation (for example in health class.)
Why did you delete my comments? And the one addressed to Phil.
I didn’t say anything offensive, on the contrary. And I also tried to help somebody.
What kind of fairness for dialogue is there here?
Hi, C–
While we definitely believe in the spiritual aspects of mental illness and that prayer for healing is important, I was uncomfortable allowing through your comments on this post that were against medical options and presented a view of mental illness that made it sound like the person’s fault for having a mental illness.
I have re-posted a moderated version of your original comment. I want to err on the side of caution when it comes to mental illness advice, since it is important to get opinions from trained counsellors, psychotherapists, and medical professionals in these areas.
Thank you for your participation on the blog, and I hope this clears things up 🙂
I’m saddened to see that what you did with my comment bears a name: censorship. You deleted the part where I mentioned Orthodoxy, the Saint Fathers of the Church and the advice I dared to give Phil. I’m not ashamed of my religious denomination! Why are you so apprehensive of my mentioning it? Do you know what Orthodoxy is? Have you studied it? Do you consider the good people writing on this blog so defenseless and narrow-minded that you have to protect them? I’m sorry to say, where I come from this is plain manipulation: deleting what bothers you and not letting others decide for themselves. There is no difference between this kind of behaviour and the Facebook army of censors who deletes everything related to the Truth and to Christianity.
You don’t know me, my profession or my life, therefore I may know very well what I’m talking about. Also, I choose my words very carefully, because I answer directly to Christ Himself.
The argument to justify your censoring is not sustainable.
I regret to see censorship of a christian by another christian, and a woman also! So disrespectful.
To be clear, this blog is owned and paid for by Sheila Wray Gregoire – it’s not public, and she therefore has a right to exercise discretion. Rebecca is her daughter, managing the blog for Sheila, according to Sheila’s guidelines and preferences while she is preparing for a tour. If you feel very strongly that your view should be available to others, you can certainly begin your own blog, in many places for free. Maintaining boundaries on behalf of Sheila and providing a thoughtful reason for doing so is not disrespectful. Insinuating that a polite “no thanks” is somehow un-Christian or un-womanly (so it would be fine if Rebecca were male?)…just might be a bit disrespectful.
You’re great, Sarah! (Just checking comments at the hotel in Sydney!)
With all due respect, I wasn’t addressing to you. I consider Sheila more than capable of handling the issue herself. No lawyer needed. Thank you.
C, I actually very much appreciate it when my readers chime in on my behalf (and on my daughter’s behalf!). That’s what being a community is.
And I am away on vacation; I can’t get on the internet very much. And so Rebecca has been fully deputized by me to let comments through or to not let comments through, as she sees fit. I’d just ask that you respect her for that.
Just want to second Rebecca here–mental illness is a real thing, and we can have chemical imbalances that need to be treated. Let’s not shame people for getting the help they need.
Dear Sheila,
I did not imply or metatextualized anywhere that a certain somebody is to be blamed for their mental disease(s)! The Russian school of psychology has solid base and many more credentials than I have, they do study what is addressed in the article and have come up with some conclusions that are irrefutable. I made reference to this and added that this matter is not a joke. Rebecca, apparently, understood what she wanted from my comment and I see that the misinterpretation goes on.
I am very aware this is your blog and I assumed that as long as one keeps the decency of dialogue, avoids offenses and bullying of any type, everyone is welcomed here. Furthermore, once you put something on the internet it becomes public, otherwise, a password should be required to grant access to only a few. I didn’t know it was a community exclusive blog.
Secondly, I dared give some advice to Phil because I’ve seen a lot and I don’t consider that giving some advice (the man could have read it and even ignored it since he didn’t ask for it) automatically blames the person for the condition they have. If this is the case, then all doctors should be censored and people should stay ill, which, I guess you agree with me, is absurd.
You yourself in your articles put the finger on the wound, which is why I like this blog, because it struggles to tell the truth in a world where the majority looks the other way, therefore I find it odd now that when somebody else helps bring light into the matter, they are censored.
I apologize for taking up your time.
Hi C, I do totally get where you’re coming from…perhaps there was some misunderstanding earlier. I love this blog (having been an avid reader for 6 years now) for the same reason you state, but I can’t go by your comments without defending the fact that I think you were misunderstood and it was blown a bit out of proportion. Anyway, I found your thoughts interesting. Are you Russian Orthodox? I was a little confused with the orthodoxy you mentioned. Take care!
@Steph
Hello! I’m orthodox but not Russian.
Thank you!
My thought at just the title of this post was “Maybe girls had a good reason for not talking to him.” And since he ended up doing what he did, I’d say those girls were justified (I am just theorizing based on my own experiences as a female). There is no justification for bullying, but there is justification for declining the advances of a guy who gives you the creeps.
I think that in an age where we have so much access to information and explanations, we have this drive to find a concrete reason for tragedies. We want to be able to wrap our minds around it. The truth is, though, there are rarely simple explanations. It may never make complete sense. And that is uncomfortable to live with. We don’t like being so uncomfortable. So, we try to explain. We try to blame. And around and around it goes.
I think that differentiation between bullying and simply not talking to someone is important. Thanks for your comment!
I had a friend say to me that there are people who only think evil. I don’t know whether that is true or not, but, in my experience, I’ve met some guys who were bent on getting close to me whether I wanted them to or not.
My way of handling that was to do everything to stay away from them, but I had one situation where that wasn’t available.
I was the onsite resident manager of a complex. We had a resident, who stalked me constantly. I, finally, called the police in on it and a woman police woman talked to him. He left me alone until I made the mistake of saying hello. Then it all started all over again. His creepy actions of staring at women doing their laundry and other times caused real problems. We could not evict him just for his behavior.
Because I was a loner, in jr. high, I reached out to this guy. I thought I could help him, but I put myself into anxiety for the remainder of time I was there. When I think back on this, I realize not all people, who seem to be loners, are those to reach out to, especially, when they’re creepy like that guy was.
If a person has problems with unsafe behaviors; an adult or adults in their life should look in to the best way to solve that problem. The person with unsafe behaviours will need social support if they are going to change. It is important for people to keep them selves safe. People who comfort with giving support to a trouble person can provide it and it is best they not valuable eg young men are less valuable then young women.
I agree with what you and Rebecca said. Children cannot be held responsible for another child’s behaviour–especially behaviour that comes years later! To expect girls or boys to be able to have the professional skills most adults don’t even have, is ridiculous. The fact is, this “loner = violence” causal equation is a completely false dichotomy. Many, many students have been lonely, depressed, rejected, or bullied–or all of the above–and have not turned to violence. To me, it feels like the loner=violence is an easy-out answer. It gives us something to “solve” the tragedy with, so we can ignore it and move on. (It’s not our problem anymore)
I also agree that some people are loners (not victims) by choice, and that people who are evil will often be left alone–people can sense the danger. Evil is very real–and is increasingly active and visible. Evil acts, and how to’s, and glorification of those acts is seemingly everywhere. Incidentally, in this discussion of loner-victim-violent, I’ve also heard it said that entitlement can also be pointed to. By that, it is meant that the frustration of not being able to “be whatever you want to be” (or or do, or become, or achieve, etc etc), is also a factor in many of these violent tragedies, as that perceived slight (it’s ____’s fault that I didn’t get what/who I wanted) leads to rage. But there are also cases that show long periods of planning, and people (generally boys), who have made it their goal to be the next big school shooter, for example. So empty. So cold. So tragic.
So, no, teens, children, teen girls–it is not your fault. The fault remains solely on the perpetrator. Were there signs? Likely. Should someone have picked up on them? Maybe. Could intervention have helped? Maybe. But that responsibility would fall on the parents, teachers, counselors, and caregivers, NOT on the peers. And may not have even worked.
The answers are never truly easy. I am generally suspicious when the big questions are given easy answers.
By the way, I was a loner all the way through school. When I started school, I was socially inept–and probably still am–and was very quickly rejected by my peers as a result of that awkwardness. I have always been an introvert, which probably didn’t help matters. 🙂
(Just adding for context)
It wasn’t very long ago that when a shocking crime like this would happen, one would see in the news articles info. on the unstable background of the criminal. One would read “dysfunctional family” or “never knew his father”, etc…Today, in our Godless world, these things don’t come into consideration anymore. But let’s get back to basics for a minute here. Yes, drugs, chemicals, porn, violent games/movies all chip away and desensitize and play their part….but then there is family. Did this young man have a mother and father committed to one another who raised him with love? Did he sit around the table most nights of the week chatting to said mother and father after family dinner? Did he have siblings to pal around with and be there for him? Parents interested in his life? Parents who introduced him to a loving yet just God? Sometimes it’s easy to miss the character shaping in these basic principles. Family. God. Sharing. Love. Laughter….but no one mentions it, it’s just male aggression or what have you. But WHO was he? If we could see his background it would be a good examination list for all we parents.
I believe it starts AT HOME. And there must be HOME. Family has been destroyed, mothers taken out of their homes, sibling arrivals controlled like commodities, men emascualted, and family life destroyed – so yes “evil” flourishes when the fertile ground for love, stability and character isn’t there. God works in the family. The family is being destroyed.
Anyhow, just my two cents today! Prayers for Canada, and the many suffering. Xx
I think there are some really great thoughts in here. It veers pretty far into victim blaming when we say, “Well, if you were just nicer to the driver/shooter/stabber, he wouldn’t have killed you.” Sounds eerily like a lot of abuse justification, for obvious reasons.
The incel “community” is terrifying. I was just reading an article the other day where the author spent the entire day lurking in an incel chatroom, and some of the stuff she overheard (oversaw?) was very scary. You’re not owed sex, or attention, or a date by anyone. And if you decide that because girls won’t sleep with you, you’re going to go on a murderous rampage to get back at them for not giving you what they “owe” you, the problem is definitely you. It’s really, really critical to call that out, not just in these extreme situations but in all the little ones down the line that carry the same mentality.
Although I’d rephrase that maybe mental illness is caused by evil bit. I’m not quite clear on what you meant; if it’s a general “well, the world is broken and people are broken and in an ideal world, this wouldn’t exist,” that’s all good. But it sounds a bit like if you do evil, you cause your own mental illness, and that’s a definite no.
Agreed–the incel “community” is truly terrifying. It’s incredibly entitled, selfish, and there’s nothing good about it.
When it comes to the mental health conversation, I more mean that if you are an inherently evil person, it makes sense that you’d have mental health issues. Mental illness isn’t always caused by evil (full disclosure, I have struggled with mental illness for years)–but I do think that living in darkness, evil, and hatred can cause mental illnesses to flourish. So I just don’t think it’s fair to say, “they did this because of mental illness.” No, they did it because of evil. It’s just that when someone is evil enough to do something horrendous, you can expect to also see that they have mental illness. But evil people aren’t the only ones struggling, and people who have mental illness didn’t “cause” their illness by making bad decisions. It’s more complicated than that.
Thanks so much for your comment–I appreciate your perspective!
I appreciate the perspective of this article, but something you said here trips me up: what do you mean ‘inherently evil’? It’s a bit of a problem I have with the article in general as well. What exactly does being ‘evil’ mean? And is someone born evil or do they become it? I’m not sure there are people who are inherently evil (which I presume you meant born that way) because it almost takes away some responsibility from the person’s actions (if they are just that way, there’s no element of choice) and it oversimplifies the issue in the same way blaming mental illness or being a loner does because it’s so vague and unsolvable. What can be done when someone is ‘evil’, to prevent such things happening? And is there any grace or potential to change in tagging someone as such? I’m also not sure that the causation relationship established between being evil then becoming mentally ill is legit because I guess to me being evil is something that is born of something else as opposed to just existing. It’s a tricky relationship to figure out. Some personality disorders do seem to indicate a lack of empathy and value for others that might result in behaviour like this, an example being antisocial personality disorder, but even that seems lacking. It’s a weirdly philosophical issue with no real clear answers. Part of me believes that everyone has some potential for extreme evil, and conditions as well as some element of choice can lead us down that path. There is likely a spiritual element to it as well. Maybe evil means influenced in part by demonic forces. Because how else does someone go from ‘I feel bad because you rejected me’ to ‘you deserve to die’? Coming from a socially awkward loner who knows rejection relatively well but also has basic human empathy and knows no one is entitled to someone’s friendship ☺
Great point, Lisa–
I agree, I personally believe that people choose evil. Same way we can choose God, you can choose hatred, suffering, and evil.
And we all live on a continuum of these things, in my opinion–that’s why we continue to work out our salvation–we don’t immediately go from 0 to 100 when we get saved.
In the same way, someone can start to veer towards evil and be pulled back. They can wade up to their chest and still be pulled back. But there are also some people in this world who will give themselves completely and wholly over to evil, and that’s what I mean by an “inherently evil” person. They have made the choice to live entirely in that darkness, away from growth/life/God, and have given themselves over. This is the only type of person I am comfortable calling an “evil” person–the others are people who do evil things, but haven’t given themselves over in that complete way yet.
I still think there is redemption for these people, though. Definitely. God can do anything. But I think that we need to be able to speak honestly about things if we’re going to actually start to find a solution.
Because I also don’t know what the solution is, either. 🙂 But I do believe that there are choices made along the way, and I don’t think we’re going to be able to find solutions unless we stop calling it a mental health issue and start acknowledging that some people are evil. Otherwise we’ll just be talking around the issue because we’re too scared to name it.
Does that make sense?
Hey Becca – Paul over at Generous Husband has been talking about critical mass. Before I stopped by here this morning I read his article today and thougt of this article. Seems his thoughts apply to this discussion. Anyway have a good day.
Thanks, Phil–I’ll have to check that out 🙂
I read an article a while ago on the myths concerning Colombine and it seems the media really jumped to conclusions (just google Colombine myths) . The shooters were not the weird loners who were badly bullied by the popular kids. They shot at random. They did not target certain kids. They were OK socially but had an evil hatred for others. We can’t trust media to be accurate.
I agree about your point on using discernment. Kids can help awkward kids feel accepted and get to know who they really are by including them. But if what they really are is scary then stay away! We cannot change others.
Jesus sharply rebuked wicked people (those unwilling to repent) . Being good to people isn’t the same as being nice.
“Well meaning adults” are the worst group to try and help teen loner boys. Teen girls are the second worst group. Here is the reality of the situation: Men are disposable. Its in those teen years that boys start to figure this out for themselves. Women/girls are programmed by nature and natures God to look after themselves (I mean look at all the above comments about women staying away from awkward or “scarry” are “creepy” males). Men are programmed by nature and natures God to look after women also. So who is looking out for men? No one. And its when boys look around in those early to mid teen years that the blinders of childhood come off and they realize that they are largely redundant. So who should help them if its not “well meaning adults” or teen girls? Answer: no one. They need to sort it all out and make a peace with it on their own, and in time they will.
As for the mental illness thing. Thats a harder one. I grew up in a town that had a homeless man named “Mailbox”. Everyone knew who he was. He had been an accountant. Then his wife and five kids were killed in a car crash, and he had a psychotic break and would wonder around town talking to the mailboxes. Hence the name. There were a couple of police officers that would take him food and bring him changes of clothes. I always think of those two cops whenever i hear something bad about the police. How kind they were. But mailbox was not “evil”. He was mentally ill and needed compassion.
Actually, God created women because it was not good for man to be alone. He needed a helper and companion. So really you could argue that it is part of woman’s job to look after her husband and take care of him. And before a wife comes into the picture, it is a mother’s job (and the father’s too for that matter) to nurture and show love to her children (including her male children). The idea that men were designed by God to take care of themselves and everyone else while no one takes care of them is unbiblical. Yes, I believe God designed men to be the physically stronger sex in order to protect his family and others. But God designed women to be more nurturing in order to look after the emotional needs of her family including the men in her family. And trust me, I look after my husband and take care of him. And he takes care of me too. And that is how God designed marriage to be. A mutual caring, helping, and looking after one another.
And I don’t know about other women, but I sure don’t feel like I was programmed to look after myself. Do I think it’s important for women to learn how to take care of themselves and defend themselves? Absolutely! But I think men need to learn these things too because not everyone will get married and even married people will need to take care of some of their own needs. Your comment makes it sound like God designed women to not need men at all (apart from reproduction), and that when a woman does have a man to take care of her it is just icing on the cake because she doesn’t really need him afterall. And your comment also makes it sound like men shouldn’t need anyone because ultimately they have no one to take care of them and they just need to accept it and get over it because it was how God programmed them to be. Again I point out that that is a totally unbiblical point of view. Genesis 2:18. God programmed men to need women. Women need men too. Not every man and woman will get married, I know. But men and women need each other, and the world needs the cooperation and strengths of both sexes in order for the world to work. And both sexes need to be valued by each other. There is a serious lack of value for human life in general these days. All of this comes from a lack of love and respect for the God who created us. Our world is a mess because of it.
I haven’t read all of the comments so I don’t know if this point was brought up… i will teach my kids to befriend loners of the same gender if they feel like it is a safe option. Someone mentioned the way a young man’s attraction intensifies when they get attention and I have to say I have experienced that multiple times. It wasn’t until a friend/mentor police officer and his wife explained to me that many men simply cannot handle attention in a friendly manner from the opposite sex because they are so hungry for attention. Up until that point in my life (19-20 yrs old) I hadn’t put two and two together, and I kept getting into socially awkward situations with coworkers, classmates, etc. Once I implemented the “friends need to be same sex/ in a group setting” boundary, I was much more comfortable.
One coworker was on a suicide watch allegedly because he wanted to marry me and I refused. One classmate would stalk me at school because I chose to partner with him on a project. Those were the worst but there are other similar examples.
Sheila and Rebecca, thank you for refusing to blame women for this. Consent and safety are important. This event shook me esp as it was close to home – I had attend the same high school years earlier, he lived 5 minutes from my office, and my son’s school on Finch went into lockdown.
Stories about the killers seem to fall into a general pattern:
1. Someone has an area of hardship. It could be a personality disorder, a family crisis, a problem that leaves them without social skills, etc. The problem itself is often someone that many other people may have without ever becoming violent. The problem itself doesn’t make the person evil, but it might make them vulnerable to evil influences.
In this case, autism didn’t cause the problem. His high school classmates noticed odd behaviours and his avoidance of girls, but never saw him as violent.
2. Conversion of hurt feelings to angry feelings. This is where evil starts to grow. Feeling lonely or hurt or grieving or inadequate doesn’t feel good. The problem is when our minds avoid those hard feelings by converting them to anger and jealousy instead. This anger isn’t righteous, it isn’t aimed at any true cause of evil or suffering. It is destructive and maladjusted.
3. Once someone is at that point, they are more easily influenced by evil ideas, such as those that feed off of entitlement, fanaticism, violence and a general tendency to lash out in anger and violence against others for failing to do or give you what you demand, and therefore failing to take any responsibility for their own failings or bad feelings.
This is such a great response, Cynthia. And I’m so sorry you had to go through that–lockdowns are terrifying. So happy you and your son are OK.
Very good synopsis, Cynthia! That’s exactly it. And I do hope we can change the way we talk about things like this so it doesn’t sound like we’re blaming high school girls. Girls do have a right to decide who to date, too. No individual “deserves” a relationship. We have to make ourselves ready for one.
Oh, and doesn’t that hit close to home for you! So sad. (As a side note, I never realized you were a Torontonian! I always like learning that long-term commenters come from my neck of the woods, too).
I think another reason we so often point to mental illness is because the world can’t fix evil. Christians understand that our fight is not against flesh and blood, as the Bible says, but the world has no grasp of that. So they need somewhere to point a finger, and mental illness seems to be a consistency for them. However, personally knowing someone well who did something awful and didn’t have a mental illness shows me that sin is a pretty strong driving force even without mental illness.
Very good point! I totally agree. Have you ever read Scott Peck’s book People of the Lie? It’s really good, and he’s arguing that we need to understand that some people are simply evil. And that can’t necessarily be fixed by normal psychiatric care.