Is marital rape a real thing? Can there be rape in marriage?
I hate the fact that I have to ask that question, but unfortunately, I do. I have seen some blogs claiming to be from Christian men arguing that marital rape is impossible, since her body belongs to him (see here why that interpretation of 1 Corinthians 7 is ridiculous. Oh, and see this post on talking about sex as if it’s all about him is terrible, too!).
I have also seen women arguing virtually the same thing.
I seriously hope I don’t have to convince anybody that rape within marriage is possible. A wife is a person to love, not a body to use, as Leslie Vernick has said. But what worries me today is that while we may agree “rape can happen in marriage and it is terrible,” we may not agree with what constitutes rape. And I fear many women have been putting up with sexual violence without realizing it.
This week on the blog we’re going to be talking about how to defeat some sexual misperceptions, and I thought I’d jump in with a really heavy one (don’t worry; they won’t all be this serious! Some will actually be uplifting!). But to lay the groundwork, let’s go over what God means for sex to be.
- Sex is a physical expression of complete and total intimacy–a deep “knowing” as it were (from the Hebrew in Genesis 4). When we make love, it’s supposed to be more than just physial.
- Sex was designed so that, at the height of passion, we lose control. We become supremely vulnerable. This is about forging a deep connection with one other human being, and also showing us a mirror of what passion with God is like. It’s not about being in control; it’s about letting that intimacy wash over you.
- Passion is very much from God. That’s why hot and holy can be simultaneous!
That’s how sex was designed. That is not, unfortunately, how it is always lived out. Because sex is so intensely personal, when it is perverted in any way, it hurts more than other hurts can.
I received this letter recently:
Reader Question
I finally realized about 15 months ago that what has been happening to me in my marriage is sexual abuse and rape. My husband is a porn user and a prolific liar. He’s duped a lot of people, including me. I confronted him about a year ago. We’ve had some counseling, some of it has been beneficial and some of it has changed nothing. The struggle I’m having is that the church is not addressing a lot of these issues. It leaves me Feeling very lonely and without any resources to know how to handle this. I have not met one single person who’s dealt with their husband raping them and then seeing restoration in their marriage. That’s my ultimate goal, but I will not tolerate being physically violated. It’s not good for me and it’s certainly not good for his soul. I have well-meaning counselors and mentors at our church, but their perspective swings strongly in the direction of a “stay and gut it out” mentality. I lean a little more in the direction of gut it out as long as I can but eventually an in-house separation and/or out of house separation may be necessary. Both to hold him accountable and allow me to heal from this trauma.
I want this post to answer her request–to talk about what marital rape really looks like. She says that she only recognized that she was being assaulted after many years of marriage, because rape in marriage doesn’t always look like what we think it will. So let’s go through this:
Rape is about forcing someone to accept sexual penetration of any kind against their will.
When we picture rape, we usually picture the force as being physical. However, there are other kinds of force.
- If a husband is angry and potentially acting violent or verbally abusive, and you try to placate him by having sex to protect yourself or your children, then that is rape.
- If a husband routinely physically abuses you, and you find that he does so less often if you have sex more, then that sex is rape.
- If a husband doesn’t give you any access to money or groceries or toiletries unless you regularly have sex with him, that is rape.
- If a husband routinely verbally abuses you, and tells you that you are worthless, and tells you that God will be angry with you if you do not have sex with him whenever he wants, and pressures you psychologically, insinuating that you will be disobeying God, that is rape.
- If a husband regularly has sex with you while you are sleeping (whether or not he wakes you up in the process), after you have told him that you do not want him doing that, that is rape.
- If a husband tells you that if you do not have sex with him, he will look at porn, go on sex chat websites, go to strip clubs, or visit prostitutes, that is rape.
These things may not be able to be prosecuted in a court of law, but they are evil. To rape is to take someone sexually without their consent, and coercion of any kind means that consent is not possible.
Compliance does not equal consent. Just because you go along with it does not mean that you were going along with it willingly.
What doesn’t count as rape?
- If you have sex with your husband when you don’t particularly want to and aren’t in the mood, but you do so willingly, without fear, and don’t voice the fact that you don’t want to, that isn’t rape.
- If you willingly do a sexual act that you don’t want to do, but do so without your husband threatening you, that isn’t rape.
- If you are tired and would rather go to sleep, but your husband really wants to, and you don’t say no, that isn’t rape.
- If you have sex with your husband and never get any pleasure out of it, and he doesn’t seem to care, that isn’t rape in and of itself.
Many women (and some men!) have sex without really wanting to, but they do so for a number of reasons: they figure it helps out their spouse, and won’t really take that long; they feel guilty because they haven’t had sex in a while; they want to bless their spouse; they hope that it may bring some peace to their relationship.
Let’s stop the language of “she belongs to him.” She is not an object.
Often they have sex and get no pleasure, but they haven’t expressed their disappointment to their spouse, or haven’t said that they would prefer something different. They also haven’t explicitly said no to advances.
These things may not be ideal (the ideal would be for the wife to be able to willingly jump in, and for each party to care about the other’s pleasure), but these instances aren’t rape. Consent is still there.
Personally, I would prefer that they work on their sex life, learn that sex can be so much better, and realize that women’s sexual pleasure matters, but these are not, in and of themselves, rape.
Are you TIRED of always being too tired for sex?
Do you yearn to actually WANT to make love–and figure out what all the fuss is about?
There is a way! And in this 10-module course I take you through what libido is (it may surprise you!), what affects libido, and how we can reclaim the excitement that God made us for.
But consent isn’t there when she is forced physically or forced mentally in order to avoid a serious consequence.
When we picture rape as always being a woman being pulled into the bushes, or a man holding her down and ripping off her clothes and doing something to her, then we may miss many instances that truly are rape.
That’s why talking about this clearly matters.
Sex was meant to be mutual. It is not meant to be about using one another. It is about intimacy, not just sexual release. When we treat it as something that he is owed or that he can take, then we diminish her, we diminish sex, and we diminish marriage.
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So let’s stop the language of “she belongs to him.” She is not an object. And until we begin to say that clearly, we won’t address the problem of marital rape, because we’ll give cover to selfishness.
What do you think of these definitions of marital rape? Have I left some out? Should some not be there? Let’s talk in the comments!
Sheila Wray Gregoire has been married for 27 years and happily married for 22! She loves traveling around North America with her hubby in their RV, giving her signature "Girl Talk" about sex and marriage. And she's written 8 books. About sex and marriage. See a theme here? Plus she knits. Even in line at the grocery store.
Good (but I just can’t) given my back ground. Sex Addiction. By the Grace of God I can honestly say I have none of the items you have listed as rape in my past. I am however interested in an expanded conversation about the 6th one on the list. If your husband says he is going to cheat etc if you don’t have sex. I am not sure I agree with it and I am not sure I disagree with it. I think it is a fine line but I bet there are some biblical and maybe even some personal arguments that take that thought either way. I have sat in rooms with guys who have done that to their spouse. I have sat in rooms with guys who claimed they were rapists but I think they were just really confused…cuz they were calling rape in their mind rape. Well..I don’t even know about that…ick. I would say at one time my marriage teetered on number 6 however you kind of negated it with “helping out their spouse” My Wife would have sex with me so I wouldn’t cheat etc etc. I did not threaten her with it. She also did it just to snap me out of my lets just say jerk state. That was definitely part of our marriage….it was done maybe out of fear or maybe just to “help out” at times. Of course that can be extremely unhealthy and could have led to more issues. Some how we got through it. I think your article is tough but necessary because as we saw last week some people are just unaware. Like seriously? This women just figured out she was being raped? That is just sad. I am sorry for this woman. It just goes to show you how confused we can get when sex is unhealthy in any way. I certainly was confused for a long time. I really hope that no one is offended by me sharing my past. I do so only to maybe help someone who is facing a similar issue in their marriage see. I also share with hopes that others may see that you can change. There is hope. On the lighter side I really love your description of what making love to your wife is really supposed to be. It is so awesome when you experience it. I pray this morning for all women who face this type of situation. Stay safe all.
some sort of weird phenomena with my opening..it was Good morning and I half want to stay out of the conversation but can’t..
Thanks, Phil! And I am so glad that you’ve come out on the other side.
I appreciate your concern with #6. I do think there’s a difference between “I’m seriously tempted to look at porn” and “I need sex, and if you won’t give it to me I’m going on Craigslist.” I honestly have known of men in the second camp, who tell their wives that either they do this or they’ll go to the strip club or watch porn or something.
I do have a problem with the whole “women need to give men sex or men will be tempted to stray”, which is very much what is preached from the pulpit, because it makes sex so shallow and it really turns sex into an obligation. As I said, I think a far healthier message on sex is that God created it for both of us, and why would we want to miss out on that?
Yes, the difference is here: a loving husband will say ‘I desire YOU, let’s have sex’
The examples you gave is the selfish men saying, ‘I want sex now! Give it to me or I take it (possibly by force, possibly somewhere else)’ in this case you are just a ‘legal’ object of lust…
And then there is the grey zone, where a man may struggle with lust, but instead of going elsewhere he pursues his wife, but the point is he wants to fill his needs in a way that doesn’t hurt her, but the temptation he struggles with at the moment may overshadow this.
“legal object of lust”….Exactly. That’s a great way to put it. And I’m afraid that too often pastors actually take up this line of thinking, which is really scary.
Hey, Phil. First off, I want to say that I am glad that you have allowed Christ to be your strength in overcoming lust/sex addiction and I’m glad that your marriage is in a better place now. Now I’d like to add some insight on the topics your brought up. First of all, I don’t believe that sex as a way to “help” your husband who has issues with lust is rape. However, when the husband manipulates his wife into believing that the lack of marital sex will drive him back into the arms of porn, then this is psychological abuse and sexual abuse rolled into one which I think qualifies as rape. Even when he doesn’t come right out and threaten that he will use porn if he doesn’t get sex. He is still manipulating his wife into believing that she has to have sex (regardless of her own feelings) in order for him to stay faithful to her.
HOWEVER, I also think that a man can simply misunderstand lust and truly believe that sex with his wife will help him overcome the adulterous lust he has for other women. And I can understand how a wife could believe this as well and even feel genuinely concerned about helping her husband out. But I wish with my whole heart that couples who believed this would realize how much this damages the real purpose of marital sex. Marital sex represent perfect love. And there is no fear in love. 1 John 4:18. If sex with your spouse is used even temporarily as an escape hatch to run away from adulterous lust, then you are bringing fear into a union that is supposed to represent perfect love. Sex becomes a medication, not an expression of love. Sex should NEVER be used that way. That isn’t to say that if a couple is going through a tough time together they can’t have sex to COMFORT each other. That is totally different.
I love what you said about how there’s no fear in love! Exactly. We need to start framing sex in a healthy way. And if people aren’t approaching sex in a healthy way–if it is about lust or if it is simply about needs–then no amount of sex is actually going to make the situation better.
I do have tremendous sympathy for people in virtually sexless marriages, and I do believe that sex should be frequent and fun. I do think that when people are in sexless marriages, they are in a really difficult spot, and dealing with that is so hard. But I also think that the way that we frame sex (as in being about men’s needs and as in he will stray or be tempted to stray if we don’t have sex) actually does great damage to women’s sex drives and is one of the causes of sexless marriages in the first place. We just have to talk about this in a better way!
Thanks, Sheila! And Amen to everything you said! I truly believe the real issue behind all sex issues is the failure to understand that you cannot take God out of sex and not have disastrous results. Sex outside marriage takes God out of sex. Porn takes God out of sex. Lust take God out. Withholding sex from a spouse takes God out of sex and what’s worse is that it also takes Him out of the marriage as a whole.
And as far as sex being about needs (whether it’s the man or woman), I could talk all day about that. Well, I could talk all day about anything actually. 🙂 I will just sat this though. Sex isn’t a need. Nobody ever spontaneously combusted or fell over dead because of the lack of it. People think they need it because it is truly a wonderful gift that truly feels amazing! But that’s what it is. A gift. From God. For married couples only. And it’s meant to be the ultimate expression of love and communion between a husband and wife. So when people try to water sex down to be a mere physical need of course it makes sex seem like a chore to maintain some quota of fleshly desire. And then you mix in the fear that if we don’t meet that quota for our spouse they may start to look elsewhere! It just turns sex into a warped and dysfunctional mess!
Now in the case where a husband and wife both believe that sex together will somehow fix the husband’s adulterous lust, the husband and wife both need to come to terms with the fact that more martial sex isn’t the answer. In fact, if a husband is feeling tempted to lust, the LAST thing he and his wife should do is have sex. Instead, they should immediately turn to God in prayer and worship. Dive right into the scripture together. Here is where the secret to overcoming lust comes into play. Sex with your spouse will not save your from adulterous lust. It is merely using pure marital sex as an outlet for adultery. Christ, on the other hand, has already saved you from lust. If you go back to the very source of that salvation, He will continue to save you any time temptation tries to steal you away from Him. HE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN SAVE YOU FROM LUST. Let me just repeat my point for emphasis. Sex, even sex with your spouse, is not the answer or saviour of adulterous lust. JESUS is the only saviour. And he will save you from adulterous lust so you are able to truly love and lust purely (yes, I believe you can lust after your spouse) after the only woman who can purely lust after: the bride given to you by God. And let me just say here that my husband and I flirt and “lust” after each other all day long. And there is nothing sweeter than getting to go to bed every night with the one and only object of your sexual desires.
Now as far as “rape in the mind” is concerned, I have a few thoughts. If a man uses a woman to fulfill his sexual fantasies in his mind, then yes, I do believe that that man is no better than a rapist. He is still using a woman for sexual gratification without her consent and against her will. I think if more men came to terms with the truth in this, then they might begin to see how truly ugly and evil it is to lust and stop. At least I truly hope and pray they would.
However, I think there are definitely women out there who WANT to be lusted after. You can’t really deny this with all the filth that’s floating around in the media these days. In these cases, I believe the women who make the choices to pose nude and such are giving their consent for men to lust after them. In other words, these women are no better than prostitutes. So it isn’t that it’s better for a man to lust after women who are giving their consent, it’s merely swapping out rape for having sex with a prostitute. Both times a man is looking at a woman to lust after her and committing adultery with her in his mind. That is why I really wish the Christian community would address how women CHOOSE to act in the media and call them out for it. They really are no better than prostitutes and by ignoring it and refusing to address it, we are refusing these women a chance to see the truth in their actions.
I don’t understand. Why would the Christian community be “calling out” some random woman who may not be wearing much, but isn’t part of the fellowship?
Well if we go by that line of thinking, why on earth would we be calling out men who sexually abuse and exploit women and children? Why on earth should we bother calling out people who contribute to sex trafficking? Why on earth should we be speaking out about the general use of porn when we should just be focusing on people who are already in the fellowship using it? They aren’t part of the fellowship. Turning a blind eye to harmful behavior is not what Christ did and it isn’t what the church should do. The woman at the well was not part of the fellowship YET, but he approached her anyway and told her that the way that she was living was wrong and revealed the truth to her. We shouldn’t be allowing evil to continue to gain ground because the people committing the evil acts aren’t part of the fellowship. And yes, I do consider the willing contribution to the sexual sin and corruption running rampant in the world to be evil. Even if it is just a random woman who happens to not be wearing much.
And for the record, I think the Christian community needs to start taking a firmer stand on a lot of issues. We have tolerated far too much for far too long. We aren’t just supposed to be the voice of truth amongst ourselves, but to the whole world. We can’t share Christ and his truths with the world if we keep him and those truths behind the closed doors of our churches. “For God so loved the world…” We have an obligation when we become part of the fellowship to show the rest of the world the way. And this includes the uncomfortable task of speaking out against what is wrong even when the rest of the world doesn’t see anything wrong with it.
Samantha, I’m not going to engage at length on this because it’s off topic. But at least one recent study suggests that the more American evangelicals attempt to influence culture, the more culture resists. I don’t think anybody in American society is surprised when Baptist moms, or middle-aged church ladies, or whoever in evangelicalism, say they think that women in the media don’t have enough clothes on, or porn is bad, or same sex marriage is wrong. They all KNOW that conservative Christians think those things. It’s time to try something else. I agree with the sentiment expressed by other bloggers…I am tired of the culture wars. It’s a major reason why I no longer consider myself evangelical, but still a Christian.
I agree that this is off topic so I will try to keep this short. I’m not interested in “culture wars” or studies that show that Christians shouldn’t fight against the evil in this world because that evil will resist. I’m just not. I think “the culture will resist” is a pretty lame excuse. And what’s worse is that it is an excuse to be a lazy complacent Christian who let’s the world get its own. I’m not saying Christians should act or speak aggressively like the secular world often does. What I am saying is that we should speak out against evil. Because the sad fact of the matter is that there are an awful lot of watered down “Christians” out there who openly tolerate things like abortion, porn, and same sex marriage. People who claim to have Christ in their lives but support things that go against fundamental Christian beliefs. So the rest of the “culture” thinks that all other Christians just need to accept the fact that the world is changing and change too. I agree that Christians need to find better ways to reach people. But I don’t for a minute believe that God would have us just sit back and shut up when we see evil spreading.
We are not directed to call out the sexual sins of those who aren’t believers. We simply are not supposed to do that.
Someone dressing scantily or posting nude photos of themselves is not an act of aggression against a weaker person. I am very capable of filtering my Internet.
Rape and child abuse are acts of aggression against a powerless person. They are also against the law.
There was a lot of homosexuality in Roman culture at Jesus time. Notice how he never, ever spoke out against the sexual sins of the Romans. The only people Jesus ever called out were the legalistic Pharisees who set unattainable standards for the people. Jesus never said anything about the prostitutes that were in every town, either. He told the men to pluck out their eyes if they had a problem lusting after women.
Lisa, sexualized and pornograpic media ARE an act of aggression against a weaker person. Are you aware of the current statistics that show the average age that children are exposed to pornograpic content is between 8-11. A lot of kids are being exposed to sex and sexualized images before they even go through puberty. Do you know how much this warps their brains? Do some research on it. And a lot of these children come from homes where parents are actually trying to filter content. And kids don’t have to be on the Internet to stumble across sexualized content. It is EVERYWHERE these days. There is really no need to get into what all of that content is because A)there are plenty of articles out there that discuss what that content is and B)it is EVERYWHERE.
Scantily clad or nude women (and men for that matter) are not harmless. They are affecting the weak and innocent. In addition to the statistics on children and porn exposure, check out the statistics for the number of little girls and young women who suffer from body image issues and eating disorders. Issues linked to the way our media shoves the image of the “ideal women” in our faces. I know this first hand because my sister suffered from an eating disorder and I am still working through body image issues that I have had since I was a young girl.
Yes, we could simply focus on educating our children about the dangers of sexualized content. And we should focus on that. But to ignore the way our culture is AGGRESSIVELY attempting to influence and corrupt young children into believing there is nothing wrong with sexualized content is just plain foolish. They are AGGRESSIVELY grooming their next generation of consumers. We should be fighting against it for the sake of those little girls and boys who are having their sexual innocence stolen from them before they even fully understand what sex is. And yes, for the sake of those weaker young men and women as well. And as far as only concerning ourselves with believers, you should also check out the statistics for the number of Christians, men and women, who struggle with porn and sexual sin. Our sexualized culture is AGGRESSIVE and it is on the attack. To pretend like that attack isn’t harming anyone is foolish.
And this is the last thing I will say. Jesus didn’t address a lot of issues that are going on in the world today because they simply weren’t an issue then (or as prevalent as they are today). He also didn’t speak directly about abortion either. But Christians SHOULD know it is wrong. It is currently not against the law even though it should be because it is murder. And yes, I do believe God WANTS Christians to actively speak out against abortion even among the secular population. Because it is harming the innocent
Yes, there were prostitutes in those times but men had to go to where they were and that the Bible does address. It also addresses the fact that men need to actively guard themselves against these women because they will be attempting to lure them in. Why would the Bible warn men about these types of women multiple times if it wasn’t that big of an issue? Men are 100% responsible for giving into temptation. But women who purposely attempt to cause that temptation with the intent of getting men to give into that temptation and consume what they are selling (their bodies) are 100% responsible for that.
In cases where the Bible doesn’t directly address a modern issue we have to use what we know about God and Christ to figure out what what they would have us do about that issue. If Jesus lived in these times and saw the number of innocent children being exposed to pornograpic and sexualized content in various forms of media, I guarantee he would have something to say about it and he’d want us to fight for those children. Because the fact of the matter is that these children grow into adults with warped ideas about bodies and sex and it is actually a real struggle and real work has to be done to undo that damage. And a lot of these men and women are Christians so they do fall undo the people who we should be concerning ourselves with. So yes, we should be actively addressing and speaking out about the dangers of our sexualized media. I encourage you to do some research into just how aggressively our media is attacking those who are weak. Maybe then you will consider it to be a more serious matter than you being capable of filtering your internet.
And Sheila, I do apologize for going way off topic and getting very long-winded. I really wasn’t going to comment anymore on that matter, but I just couldn’t get it out of my head.
The Bible is very clear that you own your husband’s body and he owns yours. When you said “I do” your husband gave his consent for you to have sex with him whenever you want, and you gave your consent to having sex with him whenever he wants. You made your vows before God and agreed to God’s definition of marriage. So I believe marital rape is an oxymoron. You gave your consent to have sex whenever your spouse wants it. Period.
Okay, everybody, THIS is why this post needed to be written. This is an example of a number of comments that I have deleted–I left a few in to show you that this attitude is out there.
No, God does not say that we must have sex whenever the other wants–because that very passage in Corinthians is MUTUAL. We are to make sex frequent and fun and intimate, but it isn’t supposed to be about selfishness or power, and once people think that it is, then people don’t really understand God or what He made sex for.
What you’re saying is that if she has a migraine, if she is sick, if she is depressed because her mother just died, if she is exhausted from looking after sick children, and he wants to have sex, she must do so. How does that fit with his obligation to love her as Christ loved the church? What you are saying is not the Christian definition of love at all, and I’d seriously suggest looking at how Jesus actually acted, and reading the Bible through that lens, rather than cherry picking verses which allow you to have your way no matter what (do you not even see that this is a very selfish way of looking at the world?)
Will, I think you are reading that passage wrong. The way I read it (and the way that makes the most sense if we look in the context of scripture as a whole – with our primary commands to love God and love each other) is that sex should only occur when a married couple BOTH want it…if a husband controls the wife’s body and feels like he can use it as he sees fit, then it is equally accurate test the wife who controls the husbands body can use that control to say ‘stop’.
It makes me sad that such selfishness is taught in so many churches, when if we are truly following Jesus, our desire should always be for others, not for ‘getting our own’. Selfishness is always against Gods will, and I feel like sex is one area that men really struggle to deal with this selfishness (don’t worry, there are a multitude of ways women are selfish too, I’m not saying women are angels and men are selfish pigs, but this post is about rape, which is the ultimate in sexual selfishness – taking something from someone simply because you want it, even though they are not freely and willingly giving it up. Urgh, just typing this is making me feel sad, sick and just done with this world. Jesus, come quickly, we need you back on this Earth. Your kingdom come, Your will be done…
E, your last paragraph pretty much encapsulates how I felt reading these comments.
How do people honestly think that God wants us to be selfish? That taking from another is His will? How is this even possible?
If this is my situation, if my husband genuinely thinks sex is owed to him and it is my obligation by god under our marriage to give him sex when he requires it or he will belittle and degrade me, what do I do about it? I have the option to leave, but I want him to understand and stop. What do I do?
Becky, be very firm with him that you will no longer tolerate this, and then consider calling an abuse hotline or the police if he forces you again. This is rape. Sometimes the only way to get him to understand is to get the authorities involved. I’m so sorry that he is doing this to you. This isn’t okay. Please protect yourself. If he sees that he is wrong, then perhaps he will change.
If it’s not at the level that you can call authorities, then I would suggest moving him out of the bedroom and into the basement or another place, and saying that you will no longer have intercourse with him until he understands what real intimacy is. You can also read this series on what Do Not Deprive really means, because that may help. Again, I’m so sorry!
I don’t want to go into detail, but I believed in and knew about marital rape. For many years I was in denial and chose to stay in the grey area of acceptance rather than say no. I finally spoke to my husband, during regular conversation, that this particular circumstance was no longer acceptable to me. He then used threats of going elsewhere to get my compliance. It worked for him for a time, partly because I also had sexual desires and he only was interested under those degrading circumstances. Eventually I outright refused, and he spent the following morning telling me that any pastor would tell me that I was in the wrong and being sinful by not submitting. I am now working on forgiving myself for staying so long and setting a terrible example for our children
Very thought provoking and tough article to read. Thanks for sharing and having the hard conversations.
Thank you for addressing this. I have one little tweak that I would suggest to number 5- not if the spouse has said no to sex when asleep but rather if the spouse hasn’t given blanket consent in advance. If the definition of healthy sexual encounters must include consent (which I believe it does) then you shouldn’t have to tell a spouse no to sex when you are asleep. You can’t receive consent from someone who is not awake. You should instead have to tell the spouse yes for it to be okay. The only way that I wouldn’t see that situation as rape would be where a spouse has given consent when awake to that activity happening when asleep.
Yes, I would agree Gwen, and that’s a great point.
I do know people who honestly don’t mind being woken up, and think it’s a little sexy! But I know other women who are constantly woken up and feel very used (where their husband isn’t interested when they are honestly available, and seems to aim for a time when it is awkward or obtrusive for her). That’s very wrong. So I think the only time it’s right is when she (or he) has said yes in advance ahead of time.
I personally don’t mind being woken up, unless I’ve had a long bout of insomnia. I have asked my husband not to wake me up for anything lately, but i haven’t slept through the night since May. Usually i don’t mind being woken up though, and He doesn’t mind it either.
We have an understanding that the answer is probably yes unless something is going on, like sleeplessness. Or the answer is later.
There was a Dr Phil show where the husband got his wife pregnant whole she was sleeping and she didn’t know until she was already pregnant. He was super creepy.
My husband is generally nice and considerate of muy feelings outside of what i can do for him, so i trust him enough to not abuse me, even while I’m sleeping.
Hi Molly! Yes, many women don’t mind being woken up–and I really think it has to do with the total context of your marriage. If it’s fun and intimate and you each treat each other well, then it can be kind of fun and adding some spice.
If, on the other hand, it’s being used to manipulate or harm, then it’s wrong. Like I’ve known men who consistently turn their wives down at 10 or 10:30 at night when their wives are ready, and then wait for their wives to fall asleep, and only THEN wake them up (and often it’s after they’ve been watching pornography).
So the waking up, in and of itself, isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It really has to do with the relationship and the dynamics!
(When my kids were little I totally couldn’t take being woken up for anything, because I simply COULDN’T get back to sleep once I’d been awakened. It’s better now!)
I have a similar story, though not quite as extreme. On our wedding night I was raped. I only realized it about a year and a half later. Ever since then I cannot seem to be vulnerable, I can’t get aroused and I hate sex. I still mourn the loss of what it should’ve been. And Im starting to wonder if I and our sex life will ever be healed and whole. The hardest thing is not being able to talk about it with just anyone because its private and will give my husband a bad rap. Any encouragement or support would be so welcome.
Kate,
My heart breaks for you as you shared in your comment. Yes, it is ok to find someone to talk to. No, you’re not “giving your husband a bad rap”. You need to find healing and closure through this difficult time. Yes, it will be difficult, but there are many people who you can talk to. Get real help for you and him. Allow those wounds to be healed so you can find freedom and vulnerability again.
Thank you for your comment, we currently in marriage counseling together so I hope and pray that our marriage will be healed.
Oh, Kate, I’m so sorry! Have you talked through this with your husband? Does he realize what happened? That’s so important in healing the relationship. I hope that he does!
Thanks for your reply Sheila. I have talked to him a little bit, but I’m not sure what else to talk to him about. I told him how it made me feel and thats as far as we got. I’m not sure what else to tell him, but the hurt and the scenes still play out in my head and torment me. We are going for marriage counseling so I hope that will bring healing. We’ve only been married for a year and a half and it feels like we’ve been through hell. A few months after we were married I learned that he had a pornography addiction, two months after that I opened up an issue between me and my parents to which they didnt respond well and now they aren’t talking to me.
I just wonder why everyone paints such a beautiful picture of marriage? In my experience it’s been a disaster since literally day one.
I dont have much hope left to hold on. Your prayers would be appreciated.
Oh, Kate, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry about the rift with your parents, too!
But you know–just push through with the truth. Whatever is up between you and your parents, it sounds like you were trying to bring an issue out in the open, and they resisted.
But talking about something and bringing it up is GOOD. When we speak the truth, then healing can be found.
Sometimes it’s very messy at first, and you’re going through the messiness right now. You have to deal with your family of origin baggage. You guys have to deal with your husband’s porn issues and with his betrayal of you. That’s a lot to process. But if you didn’t process it, it would still be there; it would just be under the surface. So bringing it up is messy, yes, but it’s also the first step towards real wholeness. The next little bit may be really hard. But just keep pushing! Speak the truth. Ask Jesus to be so real for both of you. And you’ll get through on the other side.
Hi Kate. I’m so sorry you experienced what should have been a wonderful, memorable life event. What happened to you actually happened to a good friend of mine. She was the daughter of a pastor and she and her new husband were both virgins. They were also very young (I’d say 19 or 2O). On their wedding night, he took her to the hotel and promptly raped her. Just like that. Very little was said. They were married over a year before she realized that sex should feel good! When she told me her story, I realized that her parents didn’t prepare her very well about these things.
Currently, she and her husband have been married for over 30 years so they obviously love each other and are happy together. My friend has always been a prayer warrior and she has learned to speak up much more than she used to. Both prayer and being open with each other have been incredibly helpful to both of them.
Have you discussed this with your husband? Does he have any idea of how you feel? It’s possible he doesn’t. I know my friend’s husband was absolutely clueless at first about how he behaved on their wedding night. If you haven’t discussed this in any depth with your husband, then perhaps broach the subject in a way that isn’t accusatory yet tells him how you felt that night. Maybe I’m wrong here since I don’t have any experience with the topic. Still, it seems to me that you need to have some sort of dialogue that will help you heal. Also, I don’t think it would be necessarily wrong to share your story with a trusted friend or even a sister. If this were me, I wouldn’t tell all of my girlfriends, however, talking with one trusted person might be beneficial. Best wishes to you!
Thanks for your comment. I really appreciate knowing that I’m not the only one and that there is hope. It means so much! That story sounds exactly like mine, we were both virgins and I was so naive and unprepared. I find it hard not to blame myself for it.
I have told my husband how I feel, but like I told Sheila in reply to her comment, I dont know what to do next. The pain is still there and the scenes torment me. We are going for counseling so I hope that will open up the discussion a bit more.
I really appreciate your concern and help, it makes me feel less alone in all this. ♡
Kate, i am so sorry you are going through this. While reading your comments a few thoughts come to mind. You say you were naive and unprepared. Forgive yourself for not knowing what you didn‘t know until you learned it! And then move forward on a quest to learn, to find out (by yourself and together with your husband). Get an understanding of how God intended sex and marriage (Sheila’s blog is a great place to find lot‘s of information).
For as to what to say to your husband, I think he does not only need to know how the wedding night effected you, but he needs to understand that you need to be able to feel safe with him. That he‘ll not intentionally hurt you again, that if you have sex and you‘ll say ‚stop‘ or ‚change this move‘ he‘ll respect that and not push his way. You need to learn together what intimacy looks like.
Also I believe it could be good for you to know what his side of the wedding night story looked like. He might well have been nervous and afraid he would fail, so he just got it over with. He might have been taught completely warped ideas about sex (though most likely his ideas were warped by porn -as you mentioned).
I think you both must face that trust was broken in the wedding night, and again when his porn use came out and you have to rebuild that trust slowly. Put boundaries in place. He must stop using porn, there is no way you can rebuild trust and true intimacy if doesn‘t stop. He must commit to learn God‘s design of sex. He must be committed to loving and seeking what is best for you.
What a terrible thing it is to have a sexual experience that made you associate sex with bad things. Sex is supposed to be beautiful by God’s design, and mutually so.
However, (not to dismiss your experience) I am a bit confused about your sentence: “I was raped. I only realized it about a year and a half later.” To me, this is quite strange, and perhaps indicate that there is an ever growing definition of rape, which I think is to the disadvantage of rape victims. In my mind, rape is a very strong offense, which involves physical coercion, or at least threat of grave bodily injury.
I don’t agree with some of Sheila’s category of rape, not because I don’t think they are bad, but I think they should be categorized as other types of sexual sin. Perhaps some of them should be called sexual blackmail, or sexual pressure, or whatever. But I would like to reserve the word “rape” to the worst kind, a physical coercion to sex, or sex under grave physical threat.
Even in other types of offense we make a difference. There is robbery (physically taking your things away), there is blackmail, there is theft, there is fraud. There is a reason different terms are used, as they signify different levels of offense, the methods, etc. We can agree they are all bad, but it would be counterproductive to label them all into the highest category.
It’s similar to the cheapening of the term “sexual harassment” to include an unwanted compliments. That’s just cheapening to victims of real sexual harassment, so too I believe if we enlarge the definition of rape too much, it has the effect of watering it down.
Having sex with your spouse on your wedding night is required. You were not raped. The fact you did not realize it for a year and a half suggests that you are are talking to the wrong people or reading the wrong material. Your husband will not get a bad rap for having sex with his new bride on their wedding night. He would if he had not had sex on his wedding night. That you have allowed your sudden revelation of previously unknown rape ruin you sex life is extremely sad. You need counseling and prayer. I feel very sorry for your husband.
Um, Jon, I let your comment through because I wanted people to see that there are actually are people who think like you. But you are so, so wrong, and you should seriously give Kate an apology.
A rape on a wedding night is totally possible! If he barged into the room, took off her clothes, and went ahead and did his thing without asking her what she wanted, without any affection, without making sure she was ready–totally rape. She may not have thought so because she may have thought, “well, we were supposed to have sex on our wedding night, so I guess that’s what it was supposed to be.” But having someone overpower you and have sex with you when you weren’t ready, when you were wanting to slow down, when you hadn’t said yes, when you were scared–totally sexual assault.
You can’t understand what it is like for a woman, but I would please suggest that you try, because if you go through life with that attitude, you will hurt all the women around you. And that is not what Jesus wants for you.
Jon, i did not have sex with my wife on our wedding night because i had way too many beers that day and my feet were killing me from a day spent in rental tux shoes. My wife was dead tired too. We just crashed. Does that make us bad people?
“Having sex with your spouse on your wedding night is required. ”
Gross.
In reading DV stories, it seems like ‘husband is a jerk/rapist/hits you/etc’ on your wedding night is both a common thing and a very, very bad sign.
Proceed with caution.
We didn’t have sex on our wedding night. We were utterly exhausted (I did all the planning and my sister and I did all the set up and I did almost all the clean up.) Did we do it wrong?
My sister and BIL went home from their wedding and binge-watched Avatar. They waited for the next day to have sex. Does that make them bad people?
I thank God and all His angels that my husband doesn’t think like you, Jon!!!
On our wedding night, I couldn’t have sex at all. I really wanted to, and we definitely tried, but my muscles locked down so tight that we couldn’t. Even direct touch was excruciating, penetration impossible. If he thought like you, he would probably have assumed, “Oh, well, it’s supposed to hurt for women the first time. She’s just being a wuss, and she’s going to have to have to get over it, because I’m going in!”
Luckily for me, my husband didn’t care what was “required”! He cared about ME! About my pain, and how he could help. I’m sure he was disappointed, but he never said so. He never so much as breathed anything but tenderness and patience, because he is all about GIVING and LOVING, not what he expects of me!
Because of his loving attitude, he has a blank check from me sexually. I have utter trust that he would never hurt me, never degrade me, never betray or take advantage of me.
So yes, he has a standing invitation to wake me up, ask me for whatever and whenever, because I can trust him never to abuse the privilege. If I’m sick or sleep-deprived, he has enough compassion not to ask! As for me, I initiate even when I’m not feeling my best, because I cherish that closeness with him even when I’m feeling crummy.
Husbands lead with their attitude. If you lead in selfishness, you are leading her towards self-preservation, not giving. If you lead with giving and a servant’s heart, most likely she will be delighted to give to you!
PS- I really hope you aren’t married! A heartless jerk like you would be a plague on a woman’s life!
Sheila, can you give a couple scenarios of a wife committing marital rape against her husband?
Thomas, just reverse the scenarios. Whenever it is forced, it is rape.
As a Christian married man, I fully respect my wife’s first response to my initiating sex. If she says that she is too tired, I do not try to convince her otherwise. If she says no because our guests might hear us, I do not argue with her. If she she no for any reason, I honor her by not pursuing sex. I rather error on the side of caution to protect my wife from any harm.
That’s beautiful! And I truly hope that she also values you. That’s the way it is supposed to work–and when it does, it’s truly affirming and loving in every way.
Honestly, this is one of my biggest fears…that my husband will rape me. Makes me (sometimes) afraid to get married. How can I know with NO doubts that I can fully trust a man and give myself, in the most vulnerable of ways, to him?
I wonder if this holds me back in my singleness…
Hi Evangeline,
I just want to say that real love is worth holding out for. May sound cliche, but you will KNOW he is right when you are safe in his presence, safe in his eyes, safe and loved in his arms. The man who is right for you will love you and earn your trust so that this idea of “rape” won’t even cross your mind. Trust your instinct, and trust that the right man is out there. Good men just don’t do this. Hold out for a good man. For a man who looks at you and his eyes shine when he does. God bless!
This is a year later, so it may just be me venting instead of communicating with or helping anyone. But, Evangeline, I used to feel like you. Every woman I knew in my small Christian circle was afraid of their wedding night because they were taught that “men cannot just stop once they get going.” One friend said she feared her wedding night more than childbirth and another kept saying she’ll be fine as long as she can “just get through it.” In high school I attended a wedding where the bride tried to postpone going upstairs from the banquet hall to the hotel suite to the point that she was attempting to help the waiters clear the dishes as the party was winding down! Seriously, it was so awkward and embarrassing, for the waiters, the other guests, and her parents who pretty much had to shoo her up there. Witnessing this weirdness as a 16-year-old definitely gave me some warped ideas about men (although reading about some of the posts Sheila has to delete on here makes me think that maybe my views on men are more accurate than warped) and made me extra vigilant.
So, I would recommend “vetting” any potential future husband. I have previously suggested (on Sheila’s more recent posts) that young women show their boyfriends some of Sheila’s writings on pleasure, consent, and rape, and see if they agree. But also, pay attention to his body language! Is he rough or gentle with you? When the two of you hug and you start pulling away, does he let go or grab you tighter? Don’t mistake the grab for passion! It’s possessiveness and a lack of respect for boundaries. I wouldn’t be surprised if in the minds of those men who raped their wives on their wedding night they were just being passionate. Porn and even the movies (which are influenced by porn) conflate violence and passion, which makes men think that the latter cannot be expressed without the former. Another thing to pay attention to is how he reacts to your bodily aches and pains. For example, is he sensitive about menstrual cramps or does he just see that as something women have to deal with? Does he think women’s capacity for childbirth makes them naturally less sensitive to pain? This is another dangerous view that would make him an insensitive lover. I think that because women aren’t raised to take their own pleasure and pain seriously, they are less likely to recognize those cues. And Christian women in particular may think it’s sinful or just plain shallow to evaluate a potential husband that way, but I’m all for applying all of your people-reading skills in an effort to avoid a lifetime of feeling like you’re just being used for his gratification.
17 years ago I was physically raped by a stranger. I stated “physically” because I struggle with several of your examples of rape. The examples that you provide are absolutely cruel, and heart wrenching for the victim, but I feel that it’s best to say “abuse victim” rather than “rape victim” for most of these. The sleep one I’m confused by because I can’t imagine not waking up to my husband having sex with me, but apparently it happens, so I won’t argue that, it just puzzles me is all. it’s appalling for anyone to have these things held against them and the victim definitely would feel compromised, but she could still opt not to have sex in exchange for her husband not to cheat, for groceries etc…. I feel like your examples of rape diminish what actual rape is.
Absolutely agree.
Josie, exactly! I feel Sheila dilutes real physical rape by saying all those other things are rape too. But I wanted a woman to say it first.
I do understand what you are all saying, and I’m not trying to say that being grabbed by a stranger and brutally assaulted is the same thing as a husband doing this.
But I also want you to think about this: Imagine you’re a wife married to a man who threatens you or your kids with verbal abuse, withdrawal of food or money, or something else, day after day, year after year, and you have to lie there while he does things to you that you don’t want. You have no control over your personal space or your body autonomy at all. And it’s not a one-time thing–it’s repeated, constant, always there.
That’s why these women have PTSD in about 80% of cases, and chronic illnesses. It takes such a toll. And yes, it’s emotional abuse. But we must also call it sexual abuse because there is a sexual component, and that does matter.
So let’s call it what it is. That isn’t to say that all instances of rape, in and of themselves, have equal repercussions. But let’s not dismiss the horrible effects of something that is repeated, constant, and chronic.
Let’s not dismiss those terrible scenarios, but calling them rape still seems to belittle the experiences of those who have been raped brutally by strangers. Can you imagine a woman who was raped in a dark alley by a stranger standing up in a room and saying “I was raped”, and then the woman next to her stands up and says “I was raped too. My husband threatened to watch some porn if I didn’t sleep with him.” Can’t you see the first woman looking over to the other woman and saying “Really?!?”
Thomas, I think you’re focusing on the scenarios a little too much. If you take a one-off scenario like that (“My husband threatened to watch porn if I didn’t have sex with him”) and compare it to the violence and terror that comes with stranger rape, then yes, the contrast is obvious. But contrast does NOT diminish the real facts that the first woman was, a) threatened by her husband, b) forced between two choices, neither of which she wanted to choose and her husband KNEW it, c) coerced into a decision, thereby relinquishing her right to consent.
It’s not about the scenarios and the examples Sheila comes up with (and there are infinite more!). It all comes down to consent. Can the wife say no without being punished? Can the wife say yes out of desire to please her husband, or is she saying yes because she’s too afraid to say no? If she is making a decision based on fear, it’s because HER HUSBAND put that fear into her. He is choosing to hurt her. He is choosing selfishness. He KNOWS what she doesn’t want to do. He knows his wife, and he’s exploiting her with that knowledge. It’s all about the husband’s choice, and his choice is, simply, to take away his wife’s ability to make her own choice.
And then fear is put into the marriage. And it doesn’t end there.
But this is the whole reason why so many people can’t recognize rape, why many woman are shell-shocked and don’t know what happened to them. People generally imagine rape as stranger rape (even though the majority of rape is acquaintance rape or rape by a friend or family member!). That’s almost all you see on police shows, after all. And in the news (because it’s “more interesting”). They go for shock value, and stranger rape is shocking. It’s sad we’re not more shocked by rape from those we’re familiar with, but we’re so often left wondering, “What happened to me?”
Rape is an addiction to control. It’s all about having power over the one you’re raping. When a man threatens his wife, he wants to be in control, and he knows he has the power to force her to choose between two choices she doesn’t even want.
So to address your response, no, the second woman’s story may not be as obviously shocking. But if we knew her better, then maybe it would be. Maybe her husband was someone we’d all look up to, who seemed to treat his wife with tenderness. Maybe he really hurt her on a regular basis. It might be shocking and sickening if we knew the details. So don’t diminish someone’s hurt just because it’s not as immediately shocking as someone else’s.
That’s so well said. Thank you.
And, yes, you’re right. There are infinitely more examples than I gave. I just picked some so we had something specific to recognize, because most people don’t recognize rape in marriage. But they were only meant as examples, not as an exhaustive list. And the truth is that living with a man who would deliberately hurt and exploit his wife, over years and years, is incredibly damaging.
Sheila, thank you for taking the time to respond and explain.
I imagine a woman showing up at a police stationed claiming that her husband raped her. When being interviewed the woman states “my husband threatened that he would go to a strip club if I didn’t have sex with him, so I did.” Think about that. It’s certainly mental abuse and incredibly cruel manipulation, but not rape.
Hi Josie, that’s why I said that many of these things couldn’t be prosecuted. But they still are rape. Not all cases of sexual assault can be prosecuted, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t what they are.
Any sexual activity that is forced is sexual assault; any sexual assault that involves penetration is rape.
That’s just the definition, that’s all. Again, I totally understand that being grabbed while jogging and pulled into the bushes is more violent and scary at the time, but research has also shown that repeated abuse like this, over time, can actually be more devastating in the long run. So I don’t think we should just say, “Oh, but it’s not rape.” The fact is, it is very, very serious, and it does fit the description of forced sex.
But Sheila, threatening a wife with going to a strip club if no sex is not FORCING her to have sex, not like forcing sex on her behind the bushes. So it doesn’t satisfy the definition of rape from that perspective.
“Again, I totally understand that being grabbed while jogging and pulled into the bushes is more violent and scary at the time, but research has also shown that repeated abuse like this, over time, can actually be more devastating in the long run. ”
I could see two reasons why this might be.
A stranger attack would make you more frightened in your day to day life, but you might still feel safe at home. If it is your husband you are afraid of, there is no safety in the place that should be a refuge.
And two would be that people are more likely to support you in the case of a stranger rape, and it is less likely to be repeated.
I understand some of the quibbling about definitions, where does pressure and coercion turn into rape? I’m not sure. But if you were in a bar and a stranger threatened you and you ‘voluntarily’ had sex to avoid consequences, people would understand that you were under duress. If you signed a document under blackmail or threats, would it be legal? No. So when it is a husband I can see the same dynamic developing. It’s just much more complicated.
I know women in these types of marriages and they live in a hell, day in and day out. It’s awful. The man you trusted, the man you vowed to stay with until you died, treats you worse than a piece of trash. That same brokeness and terror you felt after you were raped is how they feel in their own homes. Some are afraid to go to sleep at night.
Sexual abuse with penetration is rape. Period. There’s not abusive sexual intercourse and rape being a separate category.
Sexual abuse without penetration is sexual assault.
As a survivor of sexual abuse, I too feel challenged by your descriptions of abuse. I was not violently raped, but I was sexually abused by my (now) ex-husband. Any sexual activity carried out in an inappropriate context is abusive. Any sexual activity – verbal, visual or physical engaged without consent, which may be emotionally or physically harmful and exploits the person to meet the other’s sexual or emotional needs IS abuse. The difficulty in the way you’ve written this, is that it puts strict limits on what consent looks like. It is also unclear as to what your definition of “willingly” looks like. My point is, manipulation and force are practiced in a variety of ways. If such an obvious threat isn’t present, like having the perpetrator verbally threaten to withhold daily needs, doesn’t mean that the victim is not in fear of those things being taken away. Dependency to the offender, relationship, circumstances all have to be taken into account when it comes to the term consent. And for anyone who experienced what I did (over a decade), willingly starts to look very gray. If you are put through years of emotional trauma, which take a toll on your mental stability, decision making and reasoning, at what point are you capable of making conscious choices? I also think for spouses who have experienced this, as this discussion is primarily one in the context of marriage, the victim can often feel a sense of responsibility or willingness when that is NOT the case. It’s not as clear as you’ve made it out to be and that could really be confusing for people coming to read this article wondering if they have been a victim of sexual abuse and not just violent rape.
Dear woman, if your husband is raping you, leave him. I can say that after leaving my husband for other, very serious, reasons just a month ago, I am doing so much better. Of course I don’t advocate for leaving for trivial reasons, but if he is harming you or cheating on you with no repentance, you need to get out. It was the hardest things I’ve ever done, but one of the best choices I’ve ever made.
Me too. Almost 2 years now! It’s really great to see your strength.
I’d love to see her do an article on unrepentant sin, especially when it comes to pornography. It’s pretty clear what the bible says about adultery, but not as clear about the plethora of other ways one can be adulterous without specifically engaging in a physical affair.
I’ll think about writing again on that, Elizabeth. I have said a lot about being a spouse, not an enabler, and what God wants for you and your spouse is for you to look more like Jesus. Sometimes we prevent that if we put up with sin. People need to feel the consequences of their actions!
I don’t think it’s just porn, either. Any addiction–gambling, alcohol, but especially video games (we don’t talk enough about that). Also overspending and serious debt issues, or refusing to get a job. These are all huge issues, and when someone refuses to change, a marriage is virtually impossible, I think.
Sheila, what are your thoughts on the scene in Gone With the Wind where Rhett carries Scarlett up the stairs kicking and screaming and has sex with her? I haven’t read the book but this is supposedly an excerpt pertaining to the movie scene:
“For the first time in her life she had met someone, something stronger than she, someone she could neither bully nor break, someone who was bullying and breaking her. “
It shows how awful that time period was and how women were not viewed as full human beings. And yes, that would be rape.
Let’s consider that paragraph in the context of the book and the characters. I love this story. Rhett and Scarlett were made for each other, perfect complements. She was used to getting her way and being the bossy boots. Rhett adored her but knew how to deal with her. She couldn’t walk on him. Deep down she wanted Rhett and he knew it. That was part of her southern belle antics to act as if she didn’t….really this must be kept in context. This wasn’t rape.
I’ve heard it described as “forced seduction”, not as bad as rape.
Wow. If that isn’t rape, I don’t know what is.
I think people are getting hung up on the term “rape” and its definitions, when Sheila was trying to make the point that yes, marital rape and coerced sex DO exist, and just because two people get married, doesn’t mean that either one of them gives up bodily autonomy. And for people who want to bring up 1 Corinthians 7…yes, there’s an instruction there, but if I don’t have the right to ever say “no,” then my ” yes” doesn’t mean anything.
There are bloggers out there saying horrific things, and making points that basically equate a married woman to a blow-up sex doll, and that is what she’s trying to counter.
Yes, very well said!
There was a great movie that came out a few years back called “a woman in Berlin” i think thats the title. Anyway it deals with the women in berlin after world war 2 where they in effect, volunteered to be raped by soviet officers so that they wouldnt be raped by soviet enlisted men. Logic being that the officers would keep the enlisted men away. Its hard to say in that instance what it really was. Was it rape or prostitution? I guess i would argue prostitution because they did so willingly but were “paid” in protection not cash. Great film but incredibly sad.
It isn’t hard to say what it was at all. Rape is a very old weapon of war. If you’re coerced into having sex for “protection”, then that means something bad is going to happen to you if you don’t comply. Injury, more assault, or death. Hello, that’s rape.
Anna. You clearly haven’t seen the movie. Its more complex than that.
If you can’t say yes to your husband 99% of the time, except when sick or having just given birth, you have no business getting married. Marriage means yes, accept in very, very limited circumstances.
There is a reason men are fleeing the church and it is poisionous teaching like this. The church was far better when all women such as yourselves joined the convent (isolated from other women and teaching) or were spinsters (held in low esteem). This teaching is harmful to the body of Christ in every form and fashion.
Okay, I spend 99% of my time on this blog telling women how to have amazing sex and how to make it more frequent. But because I ALSO believe that women can be raped in marriage, I am causing men to flee the church?!?
If I may say so, if my teaching is causing men to flee the church, then good. Because what they had before was NOT a church. It was a power club where men could take what they wanted. That is not the real church. So if they are fleeing, they are fleeing Jesus.
Shame on you. Just shame on you!
Matthew 7:21-22:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
I would be very careful if I were you.
By the way, everybody, THIS is what I meant when I wrote in that post last week about how if there are only creepy men in your church that treat women badly, you need to find a new church! There are men like this out there. Many of them belong to only a few denominations, where they proliferate. Find instead a church that honestly worships Jesus, and doesn’t use religion as a way to control people.
Jesus does not condone rape; Jesus wants us to love each other. This man knows nothing about love, which means he knows nothing about God. Yet he claims to. And that is the scariest place to be.
Sheila, i know you probably cringe when you see my name pops up in the comments but i must say i am truly stunned by some of the comments from men here. There have been a few that have popped up where either these men are sick or you are getting punked. I think its the former. The reality is though that there are a lot of men in sexless marriages and sometimes i think what you are seeing is the anger and frustration coming out.
MarriedMan, I suspect your wife will be often sick; probably never pregnant.
“or were spinsters (held in low esteem)”
Nice. Love to hear men telling us what they really believe.
Because if you aren’t married, you are to be treated like dirt, I suppose. and if you are you are also to be treated like dirt, by only by your husband. Nice choices. Can’t imagine why anyone would reject them.
Guessing you’re in a loveless marriage.
To me the argument between rape within marriage and being raped by a stranger is a lot like trying to argue about the definition of adultery. Some people would argue that a husband looking at porn is not as bad as a physical affair when in reality both actions, though different, are adultery. And one woman experiencing the pain of a physical affair does not have the right to diminish the pain of a wife who has been cheated on with porn.
Being raped by a stranger and being raped by your spouse are not the same. Period. The two cannot be compared at all. And I agree that we need to be careful when putting the label of martial rape on a situation. But the fact of the matter is that if a husband is using emotional abuse and manipulation to make his wife feel as though she has to say yes in order for him to treat her the way she deserves to be treated, then yes, that should be considered rape. I don’t know if anyone who has never been emotionally abused (especially by a person who you are SUPPOSED to be able to trust) can fully understand the damage it can do to a person’s ability to make coherent decisions. I never have been, thank God, and I would never pretend to understand the trauma that person has gone through. Just like I would never pretend to understand the trauma of a person raped by a stranger. I certainly wouldn’t argue that a person who has been emotionally abused is actually giving coherent consent to sex though.
I guess what I am trying to say is this. Rape is a horrible, ugly action. I pray for any woman or man who has ever had to endure it. But just because your experience with rape is different from another person’s experience, does not give a person the right to diminish the experience of another. Again, I agree people need to be more careful when labeling a situation as rape. It should not be used lightly. But there are women out there in incredibly abusive marriages. Women who are being so heavily manipulated they don’t have the emotional stability to give real consent to sex. Because what woman would TRULY want to have sex with a man who will go to a strip club or watch porn if he doesn’t get his way?
And I do want to add that I think women need to be very careful before they are willing to call their husband’s actions rape. Rape is something very ugly and deliberate and I don’t think many men could actually rape their wives without being aware that they are doing it. He would have had to grow up with either a very warped education about sex and marriage or no education about sex and basic respect for other human beings at all.
“Stop means stop, no means no” regardless if you are married or not. I was a virgin and raped by a stranger and repeatedly in my first marriage. The emotional, mental and feelings of physical violation felt exactly the same in both situations. Both men went to jail, however, I have suffered greatly and it affects my current marriage now. I was able to forgive my rapists, but I have not been able to forget. I have never experienced sexual intimacy with my current husband , even after being married for 20 years. I still suffer from dissociation and vaginismus during sex despite ongoing therapy .
K, I’m so sorry. I don’t know what else to say–just that stories like yours grieve me, and I so wish we didn’t live in a world where women were treated like this.
Thank you for addressing this. So many Christians will not. I have been married for over a decade, and I love my husband, but he has struggled with pornography and alcoholism throughout our marriage. It wasn’t until years afterward that I confronted him about how he had raped me repeatedly while he was drunk over the span of about four years. While he is sober now and winning his battle against pornography, he has become bitter with me over having confronted him about his past actions. I have tried to get help from our pastors but they all want proof of what he did and since I didn’t call the police or go the hospital after the rape incidents, and because he isn’t raping me now, they aren’t willing to intercede on my behalf. My heart is broken and living with a man who is angry with me for trying to get help so that we can heal our broken relationship is so exhausting. I am thankful that God is ultimately in control and it is to Him alone that I pour out my heart.
Maria,
The fact that the pastors demand ‘proof’ of you years later, in order to believe you, is cruel and disrespectful to you as a person. What evidence should you have kept? If I understood you correctly , this isn’t about legal consequences for your husband but about your spiritual and emotional life as human beings and as a couple. By doubting you they refuse to try to heal the marriage if that is your wish. That’s wrong.
I am very thankful for this post. It is a topic that is controversial, but I am glad the wall that keeps being rebuilt around this subject is breached and breached intelligently. Thank you.
You’re so welcome, Jen!
Men: If you wouldn’t treat your wife that way in front of Jesus, don’t ever do it. I doubt any of these men who beg, cajole and intimidate would do that if Jesus was around them because they know it is wrong! Men are to use their authority over the wife as Christ uses his authority over the man. Would Jesus force a man into something he didn’t want? Certainly not! If you want to argue that Jesus is into coercive sex, I think you might have a spiritual disease that you need to pray about.
What do you say to a husband whose wife has decided that she doesn’t want sex anymore and refuses her husband’s requests? 1 Corinthians 7:5 says “Do not deprive each other of sexual relations.” It then talks about refraining from sexual relations by mutual consent for a limited time. This sounds like an obligation to me. I would certainly not condone forcing anyone into anything, but what should a husband do in this case? Should he divorce his wife because she will not fulfill her marital obligation? Why would a man even want to marry a woman who would be able to deny him?
Hi Dave, that’s a really tough situation, and I’ve actually written a lot about that. You can see my whole series on that 1 Corinthians 7 passage, and I’ve also written about sexless marriages. I do think that’s a serious issue that needs to be addressed, because it means that someone is running away from intimacy. And I guarantee that if they’re doing it one area, they’re doing it in others, too.
You had me with you up until that last sentence. “…who would BE ABLE TO DENY him”. Um, sometimes “no” is necessary. If you want someone who isn’t even *allowed* to ever say no, what you’re wanting is a sex doll.
I was on your side until the last sentence! If she isn’t free to say no, what good is “yes”?! If you’re engaging in behavior that is destructive to her, yourself, the marriage, or the family, then “no” is an entirely appropriate (perhaps the only appropriate!) response.
That doesn’t sound like the case you put, and I absolutely believe that chronic deprivation is wrong.
What about this, people: make giving and serving your spouse out of a pure heart your priority.
What would our marriages look like if we looked first at the Scriptures that tell us how to treat our spouses, and earnestly sought to live out God’s will concerning what WE should be doing, instead of sitting and looking at what THEY should be doing?
Your spouse’s body is a temple. Are you profaning that temple with abuse, or leaving it to rot in neglect? Fix that.
Are you profaning your own temple with porn, affairs, addictions, carelessness of health and hygiene? Fix that.
Are you allowing your spouse to profane your temple with the above? Remember that your body is God’s temple, not a doormat for an infidel, or a stockyard for animal transactions. Sometimes we honor God best by driving out those who profane our temple, as Jesus did! In driving out those who abuse and profane His temple, you are living God’s Truth and sharing it with someone who desperately needs it. That is love, even if it doesn’t feel “loving” to them because their idea of “love” is inaccurate.
Your spouse is a gift from God. Are you treating him/her that way? Treasuring, cherishing, serving and honoring them? Because you show God what you think of Him by how you treat the gifts He has given you.
Beautifully put! I love those questions.
Wow this is so insightful! I am a year into separation from my abusive ex husband and for the entire duration of our relationship (11 years) he was abusive in some way. It’s so sad that I’m just learning the signs because of the excuse for sin and misplaced blame for another’s actions. I now understand why I didn’t desire sex with my husband much and it was because me as a wife was erased from the importance of the act. I actually thought there was something wrong with me and he even used to insult me about it, when really I was raped the majority of the time. When he was finished, I always felt violated but never knew it was rape. I will definitely share this because I’m pretty sure other women and young girls are going through this without knowing their worth. Thank you so much for boldly taking a stand!!
I’m sorry you were so hurt, Kiara! I pray that God will show you how important you are to Him, and that you will get in a really good place with great community and great healing.
Compliance does not equal consent. Just because you go along with it does not mean that you were going along with it willingly.
I am right in the middle. My house is like walking on eggshells to keep him happy. My mom says he’s verbally abusive but I don’t see it. However, he does ‘ask’ for sex randomly. There is no passion, there is no mood building, it’s a random hit the bedroom for 5 minutes and done. There have been times when I have been in pain and didn’t want to continue begging him to be done. How can you have sex with someone who is vissably crying? I do what I can to keep him happy because my anxiety can’t handle his mood swings when hes upset.
Oh, dear. That is so awful. He is raping you. He really is. If he’s penetrating you while you’re crying and begging him to stop–that is rape. If you’re doing that because if you don’t his mood swings get extreme and it’s terrible for you–that is abuse. It sounds like your mom sees this, and likely your mom wants to help you. Please listen to her. Call a domestic abuse helpline, or ask your mom to help you. But this isn’t right. It really isn’t. I am so sorry.
I feel as though I should share my story to help others. I’m a 30 year old male who is currently being divorced by my wife. We’re both Christians and we’ve been married almost 3 years. We have been together since 2011. Before I met my wife, I was a pretty heavy pornography user (you could say addicted), but I thought at the time I was just like any other guy (I also wasn’t walking with God at the time). However, when I met my wife, I rededicated myself to Christ and made a commitment to stop porn and succeeded in that throughout our relationship, but I think in part it was due to the fact that we participated in oral sex throughout our unmarried years, so it’s likely I was getting my “fix” from that. We both knew what we were doing was wrong, but it felt good for a while. Then my wife wanted to get back to being more Godly, but I was too hooked. We continued to do stuff up until we were married, but most of the time, it was my idea and I know I pressured her a lot (let me also say that I never was intentionally trying to hurt my wife or abuse my wife and I never hit her in any way). We attempted to have sex for the first time on our wedding night, but her bodily issues would defeat that effort. She would later be diagnosed with vaginismus. Sex in our marriage was very one sided much of the time and I think it’s fair to say that I had felt like she unfairly withheld from me a lot, but I can also say that I am guilty of many of the things mentioned. While I never physically threatened her well being, I would bribe her or coerce her, or sometimes say well we’ll do what you want if we have sex first. there were times where she was visibly upset, but my needs were more important. Eventually, between this, and my lack of steady employment, she left and eventually filed. They’re are only a couple weeks left. I’m praying for a miracle and reconciliation as I’ve repented and done what I can to completely turn my life around from the dark state I now see I was in, but I’m not sure I deserve it. I know I hurt her deeply and that trust may be too much to overcome in her mind. Im ashamed of my actions. Despite being forgiven by her and God, I still feel the guilt from it. There were so many good qualities and memories in our marriage, but I allowed sex to be my IDOL, and i think that’s the real issue. While sex is important in a marriage, if you make it an idol, it can turn you into a monster that no woman would feel safe with. The Lord has really been working on me these past six months since she left, and I can say that I’ve made tremendous progress in my life on many different levels and I’ve grown much deeper in faith with our King Jesus, but consequences from my past still do exist and I have to live with them. I feel for the women on here because my wife was in the position as many of you were and maybe still are and I was the guy who didn’t realize and maybe sometimes didn’t care what he was doing at the time because his gratification came before his wife’s well being. I would absolutely recommend for women to get help and leave if they feel unsafe. I would ask men to really search themselves and see if there is anything evil within their actions. I think with repentance, forgiveness, and god’s grace, anything is possible, including reconciliation, but our relationship with Jesus is our first priority. Prayers to you all.
Zach, thank you so much for sharing your story. That took great humility, and I really appreciate it. It’s good to see that men can one day know that what they were doing was wrong. I pray that God will be with you in the coming days and weeks and months as you transition to life without your wife. And I pray for great peace for you!
Hi.
I have been married 36 years. I was 13.5 years old when he said ‘I love you but I need relief and if you can’t take of me I will have to find someone who will.’
We then got caught. 4 days before my 14th birthday. My mother tried to strangle me to death. He saved me.
Then he made an agreement with my mother. He would marry me and would not go to jail for statutory.
Well had I known that I would NEVER had agreed to his proposal had I known that.
I didn’t find out until about 28 years later. My mother finally told me.
I left him in 2010. Unfortunately I erred with 3 men. I was so damn tired of being told no one would want me. Imagine my thrilled surprise to find out that wasnt so.
So I went nuts for a while.
I had a life ending moment but I was saved.
I regret that time but it was also the most freeing time in my life.
Well eventually he and I were living with our oldest.
God I really wish things for me had ended there.
So I can NOT leave.
There is a 3 year old that I take care of and care deeply for.
I am very afraid for her when I ain’t around.
I was also told by my daughter that if I left him I would never see my grandchildren again.
I can not lose them.
I HATE being alone.
I need to be a wife and mom but I am doing a piss-poor job.
I’m cranky and irritable.
The child wants to play but I feel like I’m on the razors edge and this horrible rage is very difficult to deal with.
I tell her I’m sick and I am.
So all of this complication and difficulty is a normal part of my life.
My point is I wish to obey my husband as an act of love.
Also an act of hope because he can be a lovely person.
I want to act toward him like a true christian wife.
How do I do that without almost always burning with rage?
How do I love him?
The enemy of my soul isn’t satan it’s my husband.
I can not leave.
I want to die and finally shatter at the thought of another moment with him.
Scripture says to obey him in everything and it says I can not know if I might yet save him.
He is worth saving.
I do love him.
I am willing to forgive him if he would just help me to forget. I need him to stop hurting me.
I need to heal.
I’m bleeding to death on the inside and I’m chocking to deat.
Help?
Oh, Anna, please, you need some help! This is an awful story. To be married off so young, and to be so abused–that is simply not right. Your parents sinned against you. Your husband sinned against you.
God does not want us to just obey our husbands. He wants us to actually work towards truth, and you can’t relax with your husband because you have so many wounds that still need healing that he hasn’t dealt with, it sounds like. And, yes, he is worth saving, but that is not your job.
I encourage you to reach out to a counselor or someone who is experienced in abuse issues and ask for help. You may need to sit down in counseling with your children, too, so that they can understand the dynamics at play. But you definitely need help, and you need to be freed of this idea that you are going to save him. You need to deal with your own hurt, because you have been treated very badly at such a young age, and that causes deep trauma. I’m so sorry.
After reading through this and all the comments I want to add one main thought!
Before, I have to say that I absolutely agree that the terms rape, sexual violence, sexual abuse, are severe ones and need to be used responsibly. Also, not all situations are alike, neither in what happens, nor what comes out of it, or how the victim copes. Also, I too used to believe in “degrees” of rape, depending on a scale of “obvious” hurt of the victim’s rights as a useful tool for clarifying and differentiating scenarios, as has been suggested in earlier comments. But I have come to the same position as Sheila here that ULTIMATELY this doesn’t matter and rape is rape!
Because – and I feel this hasn’t been stressed yet –
BOTH the sinister “attack in the park” kind of physical assault and rape, which may even result in the violent killing of the victim by the perpetrator(s), as well as all kinds of similar scenarios like:
– sexual violence against children, – sex trafficking,
– ISIS’ establishment of female “sex slaves” in Syria,
– Japan’s system of Korean “comfort women” during WW II and the already mentioned Soviet rape spree in the eastern parts of Germany at the end of WW II (and the same happens and has happened in almost any war that ever took place, it’s just wasn’t documented as has been the case since 1945),
– and any other incident most of us would clearly label as rape,
-AND the scenarios described in this post,
– AS WELL AS any incident of sexual assault on women, children, and men – they ALL have one thing in common:
THE ATTITUDE OF THE PERPETRATOR TOWARDS THE OTHER PERSON!
Rape, violent or not, is one of the ultimate forms of denying Another their dignity, personhood, and control over their own being and body! As well as unrightfully putting the burden of copung with all sorts of unwanted repercussions due to this kind of breaching a person’s boundaries, on the victim. And often enough (maybe always?) it is an acting out and placing upon the victim issues that are in fact internal to the perpetrator – which may be things like feeling sexually or otherwise frustrated, being bored, being dissatisfied, sadistic tendencies, passing on one’s own hurts and negative experiences, a lust for power and control, not being able or willing to accept delayed gratification, wanting to relieve real or perceived stresses, etc.
BUT – this stems ALL from selfishness and egotistical attitudes and believing to have larger or more or more important rights than the other!
Plus, as has been pointed out elsewhere, in a male-female setting this is aggravated by the belief that women’s ultimate or even whole point of existence is to serve men (manhood) and to be put to “use” by them as THEY see fit! This is WRONG!
And, of course, I do agree, there are degrees to the behaviours flowing from this horrible root: On the one hand the sex killings, which completely wipe out the victim, to violent stranger rape, to often less violent but still upsetting acquaintance rape (my own case), towards all sorts of attempted to completed forms of assault; on to threat, pressure, coercion (including blackmail), harrassing; and on to bad attitudes of emotional manipulation due to unfulfilled expectations. In the end – YES, IT IS ALL A VIOLATION OF THE VICTIM!
And yes, all of this, including the use of violence as well as the sexually motivated killings, does occur in marriages all over the globe all the time!
To return to the discussion at hand, in the end it doesn’t matter to what degree the victim was hurt, though. The fact is – their boundaries, dignity and rights as a person were overruled in a deeply personal way and now they have to cope with it! While often enough the perpetrator just goes on with whatever they want to do and never feels as much as a fleeting restriction to their person. THAT IS ABUSIVE, if you call it rape or not! And everyone deserves protection from such violence!
Part 2, continued from above (had to break it up 😉
As a last point, it IS ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE that a victim of such attitudes and actions (short of being killed) doesn’t recognize it for what it is and therefore neither gets out, nor gets help, nor changes anything, but just continues to put up it with it, even comes to accept it.
But – this is in fact possible for all kinds of wrongs committed against someone, and I repeat, even something as severe as rape and sexual violence! To explain the reasons for this would require a whole essay, so I leave it at that it’s just one common aspect of human psychology. (And, as a side note, this happens for sure [in varying degrees] to anyone. The younger and less knowledgeable a person is the more likely it is, though!)
Therefore, there is NO reason to look down upon any victim of marital violence for not calling it out (or only after much time or much has happened) or to continue to revere the perpetrator, because he has the “royal title” of husband. These women are just doing what is EXPECTED of them! Think about that!
I could say more and be upset all day, but that doesn’t help anyone. Rather, we ALL have to work together to bring clarification and information on this important topic to others needing it, perhaps even today! And then of course, go and DO something helpful about it!
I’m sorry, this got so long, but I’m German and we have a cultural tendency to go deep 😉