I am very worried with the stance that many Christians, and especially Christian men, have been taking on the #metoo phenomenon.
I had a Reader Question post all ready to go today, but I thought I just needed to say this, and add to what I’ve said before. Now, I’m also suffering from a HUGE cold, and so I hope some of these thoughts are at least semi-coherent, but allow me to go on a bit of a rant–and the reader question will go up on Thursday instead!
Last week I was alerted to this exchange on Twitter:
The first guy runs a Christian website. The second apparently works for John MacArthur’s ministries. I have a very difficult time understanding why they would post such a thing on social media.
And they’re not the only ones.
As I’ve been reading some Christian blogs, and looking in the comments section on many news websites, I’ve seen very “thoughtful” arguments being made that this whole thing is over the top and women just need to stop. And many have been saying things like, “I wish a woman would grab my butt!”
I have seen too many Christian men joking about #metoo. In the name of God, stop.Click To TweetI’d like to explain, then, why objectifying women is wrong, even if it doesn’t rise to the level of sexual assault.
And I’d like to do it by telling you about two times I was brought to tears last week.
First, my husband and I watched the movie Hidden Figures on Netflix. It was amazing! It’s the story of three brilliant African American women who were hired by NASA during the space race in the 1960s, and the racism they had to overcome as they did quite incredible things. I highly recommend it.
In one scene, Catherine, who had been assigned to the mathematical group trying to calculate the trajectory they would need to get the capsule back to earth, got up, exhausted, to get herself a cup of coffee out of the coffee machine in the room. Catherine was the only African American woman there, and only the second woman in total. Everyone else was a man in a white shirt and a tie. As she turned around after pouring her coffee, everybody was staring at her in disapproval. She should not have used the “white” coffee machine.
That scene, as banal as it was, was simply heartbreaking. I began to weep, and I don’t do that much at movies. I thought to myself, “If I had had to act that scene out, and glare at Catherine, I would have been so disturbed that night that I wouldn’t have been able to sleep.” It’s that thought–how can people not care about another human being? How can I share the earth with humanity that truly is that bad? Even though what was done to her wasn’t that terrible (no one said anything; no one laid a hand on her), they were still stripping her of her identity, her humanity, her personhood.
Small gestures can say a lot.
Dustin Hoffman now has three accusers, but it was actually the LEAST bad story that brought me to tears for the second time. One story is from a teenage intern whom he propositioned, put in uncomfortable positions, forced her to massage him, and talked dirty to. One was from a Broadway co-star whom he touched inappropriately, propositioned, and even digitally penetrated.
But it was the story from a playwright that hit me the most. She was in her twenties and had written a powerful script. A producer and Hoffman were thinking of optioning it. But in their second meeting, Hoffman had her come to his hotel room and propositioned her. She left and never got the contract.
I had that same feeling as when Catherine was just trying to get a cup of coffee at work. She was using her brains; she was smart. And he was saying, “None of that matters to me except whether I can use you.” You are simply an object to be used; nothing more. That which makes you most YOU is completely irrelevant.
People may read that account and think, “It was just a proposition. He didn’t actually DO anything to her.” But he did. He took her dignity from her. Do we not understand what that means anymore? I do believe that the other women were hurt worse, and that there are degrees of “badness” in the #metoo movement, but what I am also concerned about is this trivialization of women’s feelings.
For as these women stared down people who decided that they didn’t matter, I can hear them crying, “does anybody see me?”
Small gestures say a lot.
And small touches do, too.
They’re bad enough that Taylor Swift got so enraged she sued. She was really, really pissed off (if you don’t mind my language) that that cameraman grabbed her backside during a photo–so pissed off that she ended up suing him (and winning). And grabbing women’s backsides is largely what brought Al Franken down. But is that really so bad, many have been asking? That’s not exactly sexual assault. So he grabbed a “piece of ass”. So what?
Well, as Taylor swift explained, if he was willing to grab her butt in front of a camera, where other people could see, what would he do to other women behind closed doors?
Because when these predators did that, they told these women several things. First, they said, “You are simply an object for me to use.” I have the right to touch you. Why? Why do some men think they have a right to touch women wherever they please? Do men understand how totally terrible that is?
That’s what men have been joking about in the comments I’ve read. They’d love it if a woman grabbed their behind.
Let me explain what that feels like to a woman.
For women, sex is something very vulnerable. We are literally allowing someone else into our bodies. We also have a difficult time becoming aroused unless we feel a connection to this man. Arousal and climax isn’t guaranteed for us the way it is for the vast majority of men; we have to focus on what’s being done, we have to concentrate, we have to think. Sex, for us, is far more “in our heads” than it is for men, who are far more body centered. For that reason, sex is extremely, extremely personal.
When someone grabs us sexually, then, it is an invasion of our personhood, even if all they did was touch our behind.
All he cares about his own personal jollies, not how we feel.
Does anybody see me?
But it goes further than that. When men trivialize this, joking about how they’d love to be objectified, most women are horrified.
When some men trivialize the pain of having your butt grabbed, most women are horrified. Click To TweetWhat we dream of, what we hold on to, what we even cling to, is this thought, this hope, that we will have an intimate relationship with a man who cherishes us. We want sex to be highly intimate. We believe that this is the way it should be.
I realize I am generalizing, but surveys repeatedly show that women want that emotional connection during sex, and that the “hooking up” culture has tremendous downsides to our psyches, because it goes against what our hearts truly desire.
We want to know that intimacy is possible.
For if men see sex as they should, then we will be safe, and we will be cherished.
We will, in essence, be seen.
Because if sex is intimate, and men agree, then not only will our desires for our own relationships be met, but we will be safe in the wider community. People will not objectify us when they also see sex as intimate, because there would be no need to sexualize anyone. It wouldn’t work, if what people truly desire is intimacy.
And yet, do men? Is intimacy what men want? We see how porn has captured so many men, how they are glued to their screens watching women be raped and used. We see how many men use prostitutes, and pay to get their jollies in a totally anonymous way. We give money to charities who combat sex trafficking in Asia and Africa and Eastern Europe, and read about men who will pay to rape little children.
And we start to worry. How can we live on this planet when humanity is like this? When we talk about men’s sexual needs as if they’re entirely physical, and when pastors talk about how if men don’t get release they could easily cheat, it makes women feel so alone.
Does anybody see?
It’s like when a man has a one-night stand, and his wife discovers, and he protests, “But, honey, it didn’t mean anything.”
He doesn’t understand that this only makes it worse. Because if he can have sex without it meaning anything, then is he even capable of intimacy with me? If he can have sex without it meaning anything, then how can we ever really be cherished? How can we trust that we have his heart? If sex is so cheap, then love is destroyed.
Does anybody see?
And then there is Roy Moore.
My intention here is not to get political, because I can truly see both sides.
I understand those who will not vote for Roy Moore, saying that God does not need us to protect His name; He can manage that. We don’t have to lower our standards to accomplish God’s purposes. God is bigger than that.
And I understand those who would vote for Roy Moore, because let’s face it: in today’s hyper partisan world, the person matters far less than the party. Everything is so polarized, you just need the party numbers there. When you believe strongly in a cause, I can see how that can take over everything, just as I understand those who voted for Bill Clinton.
But please, even if you do vote for him, or think that’s the right thing to do, don’t defend him.
Even assuming that he ISN’T guilty of the assaults that he’s been accused of (and that’s a big IF), when he was in his 30s, he still sought out teenage girls.
Do we understand WHY that’s disturbing? That is a grown man saying, “I don’t want an equal in a partner. I want someone I can dominate, manipulate, control.” There really is no other reason to go with a teenager rather than a woman in her late twenties.
When Christians defend Moore, thinking that the politics in this reign supreme, they may very well win this battle but lose the war. Because the real war we are fighting is not Republican vs. Democrat or liberal vs. conservative. The real war we are fighting is against sin, and against those forces that would strip the image of God from humanity. When we forget that, we veer so far off course that we stop seeking God’s will and chase our own agendas, even if they come from a good place.
So please, if you do vote for Roy Moore (which, as I said, I do understand both sides), then I implore you to do so quietly, and not make it about your faith. Let’s not get Jesus wrapped up in seeming to defend the objectification of women.
I understand those who would vote for Roy Moore. I do not understand those who would defend him.Click To TweetAnd the more Christians do that, the more women are left wondering, “do I really have to share an earth with so much humanity that doesn’t even value me as a person?”
Does anybody see?
Yes, Jesus did see.
He saw the Samaritan woman at the well who was just desperate to be loved, and was choosing all the wrong people in the process.
He saw the woman who had been redeemed from a horrible past, and noticed her act of kindness by anointing him with oil, and responded to her motivation, not her reputation. He told her that from now on, and forevermore, people would remember her and and her devotion, and we do, today.
He saw the woman mourning in the garden, loving him and distressed that his body was gone, and He called her by name. “Mary,” He said. And he affirmed her and appointed her as the very first missionary of the gospel.
Jesus saw.
And so now we have a choice.
Will we continue to excuse behaviour that objectifies and diminishes women, or will we say that all objectification of women is wrong?
Will we say that sex is sacred, and that people are to be respected, and that people matter?
Two thousand years ago, at the Pharisees’ table, a woman came in to worship Jesus. They scorned her. They believed she didn’t matter. They saw her as only a sexual object–which apparently she had been. But Jesus saw her. And He elevated her and respected her.
Today we remember her act of devotion. But we also remember the Pharisees’ act of scorn, which, in the day, would have been understandable and lauded.
I believe that right now Christians have a choice. We can stand with the Pharisees and nitpick and continue to dismiss how women feel, or we can stand with Jesus and truly see.
Personally, I wouldn’t risk going against Jesus. And that, my Christian brothers, is what far too many of you are doing right now.
Please, in the name of God, stop.
In the name of God, please, Christians, don't trivialize the #metoo movement. It matters.Click To TweetSee the women around you. Truly listen to them. And then, please, treat them as people.
Thank you.
Would you help me and share this on social media? I think this message needs to get out, because I’m progressively worried about how too many Christians are taking the wrong side in this. Again, to me, this isn’t political. This is moral. And God asks us to see people.
Sheila Wray Gregoire has been married for 25 years and happily married for 20! She loves traveling around North America with her hubby in their RV, giving her signature "Girl Talk" about sex and marriage. And she's written 8 books. About sex and marriage. See a theme here? Plus she knits. Even in line at the grocery store.
Everyday you hurt the kingdom of God and you continue to do so joyfully. You do not teach from the Bible, but teach what you want, claiming it is from the Bible. You are one of the false teachers both Christ, Peter & Paul warned us about.
I’ve been in the ministry for two decades. There are hundreds of pastors across this country that use your teaching to decide whether they can trust someone or not. If another pastor recommends you they are blacklisted from their confidence. If a couple comes in for counselling having someone reference you is as big of red flag as porn.
I bet you are proud. You have become quite big. And using all that influence to deceive, whisper in ears and change the Bible.
You are messed up about men, sex and God. What caused what is hard to tell but satan congratulates you for taking all of your insecurities and hatred and making disciples of tens of thousands. You are doing good work he says.
I know Christians who have spent their whole lives serving God. Married fifty years, raised godly children, love God and the neighbor and they don’t recognize your “teaching” and cannot read due to their blood pressure. When I read feminist and SJW websites they love you. Because your beliefs are their beliefs with just enough christianese thrown in to deceive.
That is the business in you are in, deceiving and leading women astray from Christ and His ways.
In writing this I am not advocating for men to abuse or sexually harass woman, despite what you will claim. What I am stating is your beliefs lead to their logical conclusion, what you witness all around us because you ignore so much of Christ’s teaching and facts about the world. You are a modern secular feminist who believes in a big teddy bear of a god, but not the Lord, maker of heaven and earth and His Son who died for us.
That you for writing and proving my point.
I notice that you haven’t said one thing that I have ever written that is wrong. You simply slander me. By preaching biblically that both women and men are created in the image of God and are to be valued, I’m somehow worse than porn.
I’m glad you wrote this so that others can see it.
As I read through this I was mentally cheering more and more with every single line. I was thinking what a well-articulated, beautiful description of Christ-like behavior (and how it contrasts with typical human behavior). I was particularly touched by the reminders of how Jesus interacted with women — women that “good” society looked down upon. And I couldn’t wait to reach the comment section to thank you.
So I was absolutely stunned to see the first comment. How does the commentator read what you wrote and respond with that?! How could someone say Jesus’ way of treating people (particularly women) was wrong? Honestly, the comment seemed to have nothing to do with the blog post. And how did the commentator have time to respond so quickly? Kind of felt like he (don’t know it is a he but for convenience’s sake) was just waiting to find something to “pounce” on.
Thank you for letting God use you to shine light on how he wants us to treat others.
“That you for writing and proving my point.”
Right? Can you imagine responding to ‘please treat women as people, like Jesus did’ with a rant like that?
Lovely piece. How terribly sad that you have to remind supposed Christian men to think of women as people, and not objects. And yet.
Yes, exactly. I wonder what men like this honestly think Jesus would say to them? Sometimes I don’t think we’re following the same Jesus.
Keep up the good fight, my friend. Don’t let the criticism and contempt penetrate your courageous heart. I am proud of you and thank you for speaking up for the many #MeToo survivors I have had the privilege of working with over the years in my counseling practice.
Merry Christmas,
Jennifer Degler
Satan truly hates women. And he has no shortage of mouthpieces to spew his ungodly venom through, sadly.
May Jesus rattle the cage of the deceived and may they repent of being used in this way.
Amen! Well said.
Although I do believe that Satan hates men, too. And so what he tries to do is warp people so that they are far outside of God’s plan for them. He’s managed to make far too many men believe that sex is only physical–and Satan has ensnared so many men (and many women) to porn, robbing them of the intimacy that God had for them. It truly is a war and we are all being attacked. We just need to be very aware that we are not becoming tools in that war by the enemy!
Art,
If you are going to call someone a false teacher, you need to actually provide some examples of unbiblical teaching ( false teachers in scripture are those who teach a false gospel). I am not a feminist ( feminist ideology 1970’s onwards is anti-christian) though some Christian women choose to use the term feminist in a restricted sense or an SJW but Sheila’s posts don’t raise my blood pressure. I find it interesting that is the #Metoo post that has raised your ire, #Metoo is the world’s flawed response to sin, as Christian’s we should see calling out sin as very important. Sheila’s post is about not trivialising #Metoo because then you are trivialising sin. I can’t see what is so terrible about what she is saying.
Exactly, Esther. But then, if people like Art hate me, then I must be doing something right!
RIGHT 🙂
Oh, and by the way, from the smell of it, he doesn’t sound like a true Christian….. :/
You are. Bravo Shelia!
And, just in case “knowing Christians who’ve been married 50 years” counts for anything, I happen to know quite a few who agree with you. I also know Biblical scholars and pastors who agree with you.
Such a bizarre comment, Art.
I pray for every single man, woman, and child you minister to, and for your wife and family.
What breaks my heart most about this comment is the fact that you’ve been in ministry for two decades. I’ve heard attacks like this against myself and colleagues, and it’s just hateful. Even if you disagreed with points Sheila makes, which you could choose to debate if you thought you had anything reasonable and biblical, say on the subject, your response is to personally attack her to the point of saying that “having someone reference you is as big of red flag as porn.”
Let me be clear: I happen to be a complementarian. But I agree with Sheila 100% that women are just as valuable as men. Because that’s what my Savior said, and I believe Him.
Did you even read the post? Or did you just come over here to spew, frankly, nonsense? Literally words that have no sense.
I could defend your Sheila point by point, but since your comment contains no actual content and just a list of appeals to authority (none of which is actually scriptural), I shan’t bother. People who can only rattle off logical fallacies and provide no actual data to back up their accusations is not worth arguing with. You actually sound a whole lot like the Catholic church, the pope, and the Catholic princes trying to discredit Martin Luther. They too relied on appeals to tradition and authority since they couldn’t actually back up their arguments from scripture.
Art,
Book, Chapter, Verse on how she is wrong or don’t comment at all.
Otherwise we all will continue to assume you are a troll just looking to stir up the inter webs and we don’t have time for those shenanigans today.
Thanks.
I have a hard time believing that there are men like Art in “the church,” because thankfully, I don’t know any, and then Art comes out of the woodwork to prove that some of the things Sheila says do indeed need to be said, because there are deceived, biblically inept jackasses like him out there. Those were a lot of words, yet they said, and proved, nothing.
Thanks, Michelle! 🙂
I’m a pastor’s wife and I read this blog. I’m totally confused at how you can call her blog “porn!”
I’ve never seen anything unbiblical on this site!
Maybe you’re insecure?
A few hundred years ago, men just like you screamed “Burn the witch!” You sir are no Christian. You’re just a garden variety misogynist. Put that in your self righteous pipe and smoke it.
And 150 years ago, others screamed that slaves are not people, they’re property. See any common themes?
Wow. Powerful post, Sheila!! Very powerful…thank you for being a voice in the wilderness!
Thanks, Erma!
Thank you for the post, Sheila. It’s very moving to see the respect and grace Jesus offered the women in His life. He elevated them in a way unheard of in the culture of the time. Hagar called Him “the God Who Sees.” It’s a shame others refuse to open their eyes to the universal unmerited favor God shows to His children. It feels sometimes our culture hasn’t changed much from Jesus’ day. But thankfully neither has God. As Taylor Swift says “Pharisees gonna hate, hate, hate.” 😉
Exactly! What scares me is that some people (like Art, above) seem to cling to Christianity because in their (mistaken) view it allows men to have power and to have total sexual access to their wives. Marriage becomes all about their wishes being met, rather than about intimacy. And many people are very drugged by that.
Jesus wants us to serve, just as He did. When we make Christianity all about women serving men, period, we miss the bigger point and we create monsters. That’s what’s happening right now. We just need to get back to intimacy, service, and love.
monsters who are totally IGNORANT !
Because Ray Moore is a man of poor morals, I could never vote for him. Al Franken (a Democrat) resigned under allegations of sexual assault & POTUS is supporting Moore because of party lines. then we see videos of children like Keaton from Tennessee who is being bullied by classmates and ask ourselves why? We need look no further than The White House. And for that reason, I’m ashamed to say that man is my President.
I can say #metoo Because two neighbor boys sexually assault me as a teenager. One forced me to the ground & made me touch his privates. His older brother did something similar. They are both dead now. One committed suicide about 8-10 years ago & the other died from a massive heart attack 6 years ago. Karma???
I’m so sorry, Kelly. That must have been so devastating when you were that young. And I do think that it likely poisoned their lives as well. I’m glad you have grown since and are not mired in that. What others do to us does not have to define us!
Well, that first comment was a ray of sunshine on a Monday morning. I disagree heartily with Mr Art.
I occasionally have a different view point from you but it’s simply that. That doesn’t mean you’re wrong or heretical. Your blog has helped so many women (and men-directly and indirectly I’m sure) with their sex lives. For me it sometimes even just helps put me in that place where I can think about it and not turn off that part of my brain.
I’ve referred friends whose husbands have struggled with (and are struggling with) porn to your posts. Just hoping they can glean something through their pain and find a way through it.
That said, I think the #metoo movement might have started out as a good thing but it’s become a laughing matter because of the way people (women) are using it. I’ve been a victim of actual sexual harassment (assault even because there was inappropriate touch and I was “trapped” in a room with multiple men). And I’ve been whistled at. And told I was “looking good” and “you look beautiful today”.
They are NOT the same thing.
I personally don’t need to announce to the world that I was assaulted and harassed. It’s fine that some do. But, PLEASE, don’t trivialize assault by comparing it to a whistle or a catcall. When someone whistles at you, move on. Glare at them. Make a retort that it’s not appreciated if it’s not. (And I’m not saying “you” as in you sheila. I’m saying it as in society in general!)
I think that, just like racism in many ways, sexism has become a reason to hate. Anything and everything is racist or sexist. When it’s NOT. I couldn’t stand Obama. Had ZERO to do with his race. But if I said anything it was automically that.
Hillary didn’t win the election. Automatically it had to be sexist (ironic…)
That’s all.
Thank you for your ministry Sheila.
Sheila,
Thank you for taking on a tough subject and maintaining both truth and grace in your blog.
I would like to try and politely address two concerns and I hope that they do not offend or insult in any way.
First, your enthusiasm and energy for this subject are completely understandable and commendable. My concern is that with the vitriol expressed here, your female readers will be tempted to paint all men as such, and not simply men living in sin. I hope your female readers can realize that even if their husbands struggle or have struggled with pornography, they aren’t the same men who rape or engage in child prostitution.
Secondly, I agree that men pursuing much younger women is an unsettling occurrence. But, I would like to ask you not to give into conjecture. We don’t know what is intentions were. It could have been, as you described, to maintain an unhealthy power balance. We don’t know. Some of his accusers have been discredited, which also casts doubt into the authenticity of all the news surrounding him. As a military intelligence officer, data credibility is a life-or-death issue.
I see too many people ignoring due process and giving the burden of proof on the defendant instead of the prosecutor. Would anyone want their family members being considered guilty until proven innocent?
Thank you for hearing me out and doing all that you do on here. Please ignore the baseless slanderers. You are helping more people than you will ever know!
What would be another logical reason a 30+ year old man would pursue teenagers, Armor? Honestly. To even kind of brush off that behavior is disturbing.
No, none of Moore’s accusers have been discredited. You could possibly say that about one, and only one. And she’s not actually been completely discredited. She was not upfront about the parts she added to his yearbook inscription, which is not good, but it doesn’t at all completely discredit her, or any of the other accusers, whose stories are very credible. As you said, data crediblity is important, and at least 4 of the women have credible evidence.
Your talk of prosecutors and defenders refer to courts of law, of which Moore is not a part of, not having been actually charged. What the public needs to decide is if he’s worthy of being elected to a government position. That’s why these stories matter. Character matters. And his is sorely lacking…and it was before this scandal.
Amanda,
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I meant in no way to brush off any negative behavior. My main point was that we owe it to ourselves to use discretion and wisdom when it comes to what we allow ourselves to believe. This is important when we are making assessments of a person’s character, especially one that claims to be a follower of Christ.
For all we know, he may be a weirdo. But in the event of someone accusing me of something, I would not want to be condemned on hearsay, especially from organizations that have a vested interest in manipulating our points of view.
The defender/prosecutor example was a metaphor, not a literal analogy.
Armor,
Shiela may not be able to respond to your comment. I don’t recognize your name, so I’m thinking you may not be a regular reader, or at least commenter. But I am a regular reader, and I just want to let you know that Sheila has preached to us women that we shouldn’t think that all men are perverts. We can’t judge all men by what some do.
And as for what you said about men who view porn. The thing is, that’s pretty complicated. I read a news article just in the last day or 2, about a woman who met a man for a date and was held hostage by him, raped and burned with a lighter (I think). The ordeal lasted 24 hours. She was able to get off a text to her family that she needed police. When she was rescued, the cops found video of her on the guy’s phone that he was going to upload as porn. And this guy has had a number of other victims. Some guys say porn is ok because they are watching 2 willing partners. They think of them as actors and actresses. And that’s probably the case sometimes. But this situation was not willing. It was forced. And men (and women) do watch victims that are abused horribly and get enjoyment. How do you think God feels when He sees all that?
Ashley,
Thank you for being open and replying to my comment.
I am very thankful for Sheila and people like you who take the time to answer questions and help Christians understand each other better.
I feel that God is extremely saddened when someone uses their free will to do so much damage to another one of God’s children. It is almost unbelievable to think about. My point about porn, though, was that if your current/future husband ever confesses to looking at porn, please don’t assume he was looking at graphic, disturbing, and outright illegal content. (I hope this next statement comes across as educational, not creepy) The majority of adult content is a completely unrealistic encounter between two gleeful participants.
Actually the majority is not consensual acting. Even if it’s “willing” it’s the result of years of breaking down of the woman by poverty, abuse, addiction and usually a pimp. The numbers that involve sex trafficking is very high. Because of the option is have sex on camera or endure another beating, rape or even death, women choose the camera. That’s not gleeful consensual in any shape.
Don’t make it anything that it is not.
And let’s not forget the drug use!
If you go search for stories from women who got out of the porn industry, it’s not gleeful. They get into it for the MONEY, not the actual job. They take drugs to help them endure the pain. And they quickly get into fetish porn because more mainstream porn requires fresh meat, men don’t want want see the same woman.
Also, we have to remember that in the United States, we are supposed to presume innocence until PROOF of guilt.
Many men have had their lives ruined due to false allegations of sexual impropriety.
And, truly, all that really does is make true victims less likely to be believed. True victims are victimized a second time by fake victims.
Roy Moore may or may not be guilty of what he’s accused of but I’ve already heard that one of his supposed victims forged the “evidence” in her yearbook.
Trump’s accusers were apparently not real but planted by political forces.
I wish people (men and women) would just act and speak with honor. That you could trust someone’s word. That people would be HONEST.
Yes innocent until PROVEN guilty. Except with Moore & Trump there’s more than one accuser. So, they are ALL lying? Every single one of them? What about Billy Bush disputing Trump publically after he denied the tapes were even real?? Who’s lying there? Mr Bush lost his job. The other was elected President.
In my case, I had pretty much forgotten what happened to me until this me too movement. I never told anyone because I figured no one would believe me. Who’d want to do that to me? I certainly wasn’t attractive. My attackers are not alive today to defend themselves. But it did happen. The fact that it happened over 30 years ago doesn’t negate that at all.
That these political figures even have these kinds of allegations made against them tells me ALL I need to know about their morals & ethics. Party differences aside. It’s not who *I* want respresenting me in my government. Ones morals & ethics affect all areas of your persona.
False allegations, while serious, are rare. And they are punished far more often than actual abusers and assaulters. When many women who do not at all know each other, tell very similar stories, with many, many corroborators, it’s time to take a real listen and quit with the “they’re just political plants.” Trump’s accusers have not at all been proven to be that, unless you only read incredibly slanted sources. (There is still at least one case in litigation, actually.)The yearbook lady also did not “forge” evidence. Even Fox News issued a correction to their original story. She added the date and name of the restaurant, the 2 parts Moore took issue with. So, while she definitely should have been upfront from the start, it is looking likely that he wrote the inscription, but she added notes. Which means he’s lying about having “never met her before.” If she’s “caught in a lie,” then so is he.
If you were looking for a caregiver for your child or elderly parents and you had an applicant that a few people had cautioned you about, would you wait for the indictment, trial and verdict, or would you simply choose to hire someone else? That’s exactly what we’re doing when we elect an official. We are entrusting them with great responsibility and we are perfectly entitled to decide, based on what we hear, that they are not worthy of our trust. Innocent before proven guilty only applies when the state is coercively taking away the freedom of an individual, not when individuals is a society choose to not place their trust in someone.
Just so you all know, I’m not ignoring comments. It’s just that my temperature is going up and I’m out of Kleenex and am now resorting to toilet paper. So I think I’m going back to bed! Hopefully I’ll talk with you again this afternoon.
Oh no!!! Feel better Sheila!! Are you sure it’s just a cold?!
Her husband is a Doctor, so I’m sure she knows the difference between a cold & something more serious.
Oh I’m so sorry! What’s all that nonsense about it being the most wonderful time of the year?
I’m a faithful reader but I think two opinions expressed we should be careful with.
First, while I do not agree with Art above I know my parents would. And there literally are no humans walking the earth who are closer to sainthood then my parents. They are kind, generous, loving and giving to everyone they meet. But my mom has expressed words very closely to Art when I have shared a couple articles. I would be careful to assume that those writing are bad, mean, sinful or not Christians just because they do not agree with you.
Second, you’ve never been in the public eye if you just assume because multiple accusers say the same thing they are true. Sadly, it’s a power, control factor all its own and it’s done all too often. I understand that there are men who use their physical power and position in life to hurt women. There are just as many women who use their power of their voice, saying we must believe them, and the laws of the land which are stacked against men to hurt men. So trivialize might not be the right word but I understand why men are skeptical.
I agree about being in the public eye. It’s so hard to know what’s true and know what to believe when it comes to politics. These last few years have been so hate-filled. I really don’t think there has been anything quite like it in American history—although I’m in my early 30’s so what do I really know? I just pray that truth wins.
Oh my goodness, Sheila, I have chills! Not only because you did such an amazing job with what you said here, but because there are some eerie similarities in what you said in this post and I said in my post today (which will probably link below). In particular, your question, “Does anybody see me?”
When things like this happen, I feel like God is trying to say something here. I pray that people, particularly men, will listen.
Thanks for speaking so boldly!
“Will we continue to excuse behaviour that objectifies and diminishes women, or will we say that all objectification of women is wrong?”
First, thank you for writing this! I think you handled it very well, especially helping men to see how their behaviors can objectify and diminish women.
My question to you is, could you also write a follow-up post addressing how sadly, women often objectify themselves by participating in this “sex sells” society?
While I am highly disturbed at men’s sexualization of women, I am equally disturbed when I see women doing the same. I DO NOT mean to say one causes the other, I’m just saying I’d be interested in a post that addresses women’s responsibility in this issue as well.
I wouldn’t be surprised if you’ve already written just that, so if so, could you link it for me to read?
Thank you so much for your work!
I have been asking for the same thing to be addressed! I really really hope to see a post done on how women are responsible too. I, for one, am growing really tired of women getting away with behaving badly and men getting all the blame for the objectification of women. Men are definitely responsible, but men could not possibly have normalized the objectification of women to this extent without the active and WILLING participation of women. There ARE women out there who enjoy and shamelessly benefit from the sexual attention they get from men. I don’t understand why people are so afraid of addressing the issue, but I do know that things won’t actually get better for women until we are willing to talk about how much damage these women are doing to the image and value of women and to society as a whole.
I respectively disagree. Yes, there are women who enjoy flaunting their bodies and sexuality but that is NEVER an excuse for sexual harassment or assault. NEVER. I have been in a Christian environment since birth and was always aware how the sexual sins of men were always overlooked but was not for women. We condemn our daughters and teach them to dress modestly, all the while the vast majority of young men look at porn, and the church never talks about that!! Sorry, but the God that I serve holds the guilty accountable, not the innocent!! I am not trying to disrespect men, because most that I know are pretty wonderful, but God does not condone, justify, or coddle the sins of men, simply because they are men!
Great job Sheila and thank you for speaking up with firm Christian conviction. I support your ministry. I also wrote a short article about this issue:
http://www.thegoodbookblog.com/2017/oct/30/metoo-wetoo/
Good perspective. What we are seeing in our day is the logical outworking of ignoring male-female differences, differences our modern society tries to deny. The book A Billion Wicked Thoughts researched internet searches from a sex perspective. What the researchers discovered was illuminating: men overwhelmingly search out female body parts; women search out love. The study revealed the natural traits instilled in us by our Maker, and apart from the Spirit of God they will run into perversion and excess. Thus we see King David used his power and position to intimidate and effectively rape Bathsheba. He was after her body. He was not “walking by the Spirit.” That said, we must recognize men and women are created radically different in being — not just in genitals. Then we need to teach men and women to stop assuming the opposite sex thinks like them. Just as it is common for humans to wrongly impose human characteristics on animals — “My dog loves me” — so too men and women need to see it is wrong to impose their traits on each other. This makes for disaster in marriage. It makes for disaster outside marriage as well.
Yes, men and women ARE different. Sheila writes in this post that she wishes men were more like women in different ways. I understand her frustration – I wish women were more like men in different ways. I wish women hit on men more. I wish women were more visual. I wish a lot of things. But I realize wishing won’t make it happen. And I also realize that there is a certain kind of beauty to the difference between the sexes.
None of that beauty is present when men trivialize sexual harassment, which is what this article is about.
Thank you, Dean.
Sheila, thank you for seeing women as Jesus did, and for fighting for us as He does.
I don’t understand why men feel they have the right to touch a woman whenever they want. But I’d take it a step further and ask who gave them the right to even look at a woman who is not his wife lustfully, undressing her with his eyes? I can guarantee he didn’t ask for permission.
Sheila, thank you for addressing this. The problem is now that sexual harrassment is happening in the church. I dated a guy who seemed like he was a great guy from our singles group, and all he wanted was to get a “nice Christian girl” into bed with him. I dealt with him groping, pressure to do things I knew was wrong. After breaking it off with him, I was so turned off by any man until I met the guy I am seeing now who is everything a Christian man should be. It saddens me that this issue is not being taken seriously. That’s why many of us have suffered in silence for so long.
Hello all,
I must agree that this was a very powerful and deep article on the issue of trivializing women . I especially appreciate the part where Sheila said women lose that sence of being valued and cherished when men objectify them. It is indeed every woman’s desire to be intimate ,loved and cherished by a special man. What a huge discouragement indeed that we share the same humanity with people who consider others as ‘things’ .
I have learned a lot from your blog Sheila and still am. Thank you.I think your messages are very apt in the world we live in today. Thank you for being bold to say what many of us ladies cannot say in public.
God bless and keep you.May God grant you perfect healing in Jesus name
To people like Art, I think the issue is lack of knowledge and understanding. If he had this I don’t think he’d have said what he did. It didn’t make much sense to me. Father, please remove the scales from our eyes and cause us to see each other as you see us!Amen!
I have to admit I’m shaking my head that this post even has to be written (but then the first comment shows that it sadly does). “Objectification of people is wrong.” No freaking kidding! (I admit, my language would be stronger than that, but hey, the internet is forever.) Thank you, Sheila, for writing this.
The frustrating thing about these men who are saying, “I’d love if it a stranger grabbed my butt” is that they probably wouldn’t, in reality. What they’re really saying is “Yeah, I’d love it if someone cared so little for what I really thought and wanted that they believed my body was theirs to do with as they wished.” I’m not a possession for some random person to ogle over, catcall, or fondle. Permission for sexual touch is a right reserved to me only to give, not for others to take.
One thing though–grabbing someone’s butt IS sexual assault. #metoo is for everyone who has been objectified, not just rape victims. I think we do ourselves a disservice to make sexual assault “not that bad” because it didn’t go all the way to penetration. Assault is assault. Getting punched by a stranger isn’t the same as being murdered by one, but it sure as heck is still a crime. And sexual harassment is incredibly wide-ranging, even if people don’t always notice it around them; hence the point of #metoo.
Hannah, oh wow, I posted something just minutes after you, without seeing your post. And our posts couldn’t be more opposing.
You say ‘The frustrating thing about these men who are saying, “I’d love if it a stranger grabbed my butt” is that they probably wouldn’t, in reality.’ NO!! At least for this man, I would want it in reality! And when one of those women are attractive, I would ask her out. That would be heaven. No facing gut-wrenching rejection. An attractive woman expressing physical interest in me, and now a date!
And then you write: ‘What they’re really saying is “Yeah, I’d love it if someone cared so little for what I really thought and wanted that they believed my body was theirs to do with as they wished.”’ No, that’s NOT what we’re saying! We’re saying “I’m so thrilled, so utterly thrilled, that you were so excited by the shape of my butt that, despite a lot of reasons not to do it, you couldn’t help yourself and you grabbed it.” This is what we’re saying.
Thomas,
I understand how exciting that sounds- a stranger finding you so hot she grabs your butt! But you speak of what you know not. The imagined is far different from reality. You do not feel wanted, you feel degraded…. prey, not human. Being male, no one gives you sympathy and you are confused because you’re ‘supposed’ to be thrilled. Your comment’s mindset causes real damage. My little brother feels like his life has been destroyed by a sex predator but the police do not take male victims as seriously. A female victim at least has a mostly understanding society; a male victim will be thought unmanly, like something is wrong with him and is rarely believed to have been 100% the victim. Female sex predators are on the rise and everyone need to stop speaking such nonsense that anyone should enjoy harassment, and start supporting the brave victims who speak out and risk looking unmanly to the ignorant.
Sheila, what you don’t understand, and I don’t think you can, is that men really WANT to have a woman grab our butts! We SO much want to be desired physically, which in general we are not. Guys get little to no affirmation in our lives that we are desired physically by women.
Now I KNOW almost all women don’t want their butts grabbed by random men. And I have never done it, in 50 years of life. And most men have never done it, not to totally random women that is. It’s a very small percentage of men that ruin it for the rest of us. So I know (I KNOW!) that women don’t want to be grabbed. But please, PLEASE try to understand why many of us guys do.
No Thomas , a Christian man does not want women to grab his butt. Wanting someone to like you, appreciate you and want to have relationship with you is not the same thing as someone grabbing intimate parts of your body. A Christian man does not want another person to sin! Men and women are different but this is about the difference between what is Godly behaviour and what is sinful behaviour. God doesn’t give people a pass on a particular sin because of their gender, male or female. My husband was 38 when we married, he had to wait for God’s perfect timing to answer his prayers for a wife. He was sometimes lonely and yet during his single years he wasn’t desirous of being grabbed etc, he knew sin of any sort wasn’t the answer for his loneliness.
Thomas, are you saying that men, in general, want a woman–ANY woman, regardless of marital status, age, attractiveness, relation, etc.–to touch them in such an intimate way?
If you’re saying that men just want to be desired/feel desirable, I get that. Women also want to feel desirable/desired. But we want that desire to be acted upon in an appropriate context. Personally, I don’t want *anyone* other than my husband whistling at me or touching me in an intimate way or asking me if I want to have sex. Those things are appropriate (and more than welcome) coming from him, but from a co-worker or a customer or a friend or a stranger? NOPE. Not okay.
When we’re trying to talk about how, as women, we don’t want to be leered at, groped, objectified, propositioned, etc. and men start telling us that *they* would like it if a woman would call them “sexy” or touch *their* butt, we hear “Well, I wouldn’t mind if it happened to me, so what’s the big deal?” You honestly may not mind, but there are a lot of women who do, and I think a little understanding of that would go a long way.
Ok, Thomas, I live in a VERY secular community and I can tell you that while my husband ( who is not a Christian) loves it when I grab his butt (although I do try to pick and choose appropriate moments), he was definitely uncomfortable when rather forward, single women have ‘shown him what they want’ in a rather physical way (he doesn’t wear a ring, so they most likely didn’t know he was married, although that certainly wouldn’t stop them all, I know of both men and women who see bedding married people as a thrilling added challenge) He wasn’t in any physical danger from them (like a lot of women in the #metoo scenarios are) and he laughed it off, but he also felt a bit weirded out by it, and I don’t think he would have felt comfortable if he had to go somewhere alone with one of those women. Or if one of those women was his boss. So, perhaps certain single men would love it if a random woman grabbed their butt, but I don’t think it is worth the risk of offending/distressing someone (of either sex) just to ‘cop a feel’. I’m sure there are other ways that a woman could let you know she finds you attractive, and leave the butt grabbing to playful married couples!
In fact, let’s just go back to the boss example. How appreciative would you be if your female boss started making sexual advances towards you? Let’s say she’s someone you don’t find attractive…and she keeps making these sexual advances even after you have firmly but politely declined them? What about if you feared that you would lose your job if you didn’t ‘play along’? How appreciative of her sexual advances and physical grabiness are you now? How about if she changed your uniform so that it accentuated whatever physical trait she most enjoyed looking at, so that every time you got ready for work, all you can think of is that your ugly boss is making you wear this so she can get her jollies? Still loving the attention? How about if all your workmates distanced themselves from you because you are only getting that promotion because of ‘what you do for the boss’, nothing to do with your actual ability to do the job you are paid for? How about if your boss’s husband was spreading rumours around town that you are home wrecking scum, so that even if you left your current job, no one else wants to employ you? Are you still feeling flattered?
I sincerely hope that you will keep such scenarios in mind when you make comments such as ‘men would love it if women grabbed their butts’, because THAT is the kind of thing that women are thinking of when they say ‘we don’t like it when men grab our butts’.
Hello Thomas
So as Christian women it’s okay to grab a mans butt? My husband just read your comments and cannot believe what you have written.
He told me to go ahead and start grabbing butts and we will keep documentation. My husband would be VERY uncomfortable with any woman grabbing his butt or rubbing his thigh or shoulders.
As far as men being more visual than women please check out Psychology Today and other recent research where electrodes were connected to women and men’s head to monitor brain activity. The WOMENS brains lighted up brighter and longer than men’s when shown exactly the same pornograohic videos!!
Women are TAUGHT to not express our visualization. I lead a women’s group ( Middle Aged women !) and they express their visual attraction to men. Yes! They are highly visual but it is not acceptable in our culture to express it.
Please. Please stop using the “visualization ” card to excuse men. Women are visual and I WOULD NOT
( nor anyone in my group) marry a man they did not find physically attractive.
We are not blind just kept quiet by societal norms and lack of education.
So, so good. Thank you for writing this. I shared it.
To the men who believe they would feel desired and affirmed by being ‘grabbed’ by apparently any woman, would you feel the same if a man grabbed you in a sexual manner or made sexually suggestive comments to you?
The differences between the genders are multiple and vast in areas, but I don’t believe many men would enjoy coerced intimate contact with another man and maybe imagining such contact occurring would bring the male population that much closer to understanding why women want to be and feel safe in their persons.
In most instance men are larger, stronger and they are in positions of authority or power. If your supervisor was grabbing you or making suggestive comments to you would that be ok? If a larger male grabbed you close in the elevator and whispered what he wanted in your ear would that be assault? If a group of men rubbed themselves against you in the subway would this be affirming or frightening?
I think the men who are commenting they’d like to be “me too” are imaging only half of the role reversal. They’d like an attractive woman, or maybe any woman, but a woman to grab them. That would be affirming. But in most instances women are smaller, weaker and are not as often in positions of power. You (the male) could choose then what would happen next, but what if you didn’t feel you had that choice?
H2O, I see your points, but let’s say an attractive man who was smaller than you, and not in a position of power over you, grabbed your butt. Then would you feel excited about it? If your answer would still be no, then why bring up the points you brought up?
I ‘brought it up’ to illustrate how women feel about unwanted male attention, particularly attention that crosses over to assault.
I don’t want any portion of my body ‘grabbed’, by anyone. I think the males who are suggesting they would like to be accosted sexually are disingenuous and perhaps if they considered being accosted by someone with whom they would never wish to have relations, and now add to this that the individual could force himself upon them, maybe, just maybe these males would understand how a woman may feel and keep their leers and hands to themselves.
I’m not sure about Moore’s guilt or innocence. I do want to say that he was in his 30’s 40 years ago. Considering the culture of the time & place. Him dating teenager’s is not uncommon & would not have raised eyebrows. I think it’s awful but my grandmother wouln’t have thought anything of it. It’s the time & place (or culture) factor.
Then shame on your grandmother. My grandmother would’ve used her cast iron skillet on the head of any adult that propositioned teenagers. Another time and place, yes.
The thing about all these men who claim that they want to be grabbed by random women is that they DO want to be grabbed… by the women in their fantasies. The women they conjure up whether they are women in the media or women they encounter in real life. They are picking and choosing. They aren’t being honest. Surely they wouldn’t be nearly as flattered if they were grabbed by a women that they judged to be less than worthy of grabbing at their buns. In other words, cold harsh reality would rain bitterly on their parade. The fact that they indulge in such desires and fantasies point to deep rooted issues that need to be dealt with before they will ever understand that such behavior is wrong.
The plain and simple truth is that nobody should be grabbing anybody else’s butt (or any other body parts) without that person’s consent. Period. It is basic common sense, basic respect for another human being, basic understanding of how God wants us to treat others. And if you refuse to grasp the basics, then only God and Christ are going to penetrate the walls you have built around your mind and heart.
Your last sentence especially is perfect (though you’re right about it all). “And if you refuse to grasp the basics, then only God and Christ are going to penetrate the walls you have built around your mind and heart.” Yep.
Samantha, why does wanting to have an attractive woman grab my butt point to deep-rooted issues? I think it points to the fact that I am human and having an attractive member of the opposite sex express physical desire is about the greatest feeling in the world. It’s very natural – I don’t understand why you consider it indicative of a mental illness or psychological problem. Huh?
Okay, Thomas, I think you’ve made your point. While the majority of humans would prefer not to have their bodily integrity violated for the gratification of a random stranger (or even a close friend), you are the exception. So…when are you volunteering to help all your relatives and friends move? Because you don’t mind your body being exploited for others, right?
Wow Anna, we really see this differently. I don’t see it as having my body violated for the gratification of a stranger. I see it as having an attractive stranger touch me, and I long for touch.
Thomas, I think this has gone on long enough. I’m going to cut off this discussion now. The reason it should bother you is that you SHOULD NOT WANT TO BE OBJECTIFIED. And you should understand that others don’t want that, either. If you don’t understand that, then perhaps you need to pray and ask God to show you your true worth, because you seem to be basing it in the wrong things.
Sheila, thomas is wording it differently but he is more or less saying similar things that i have said here before, namely that for good biological reasons, men are invisible and expendable. And to someone who is never desired, objectification looks appealing. Its ok to take issue with that of course but i think thats what he is saying.
Chris,
Men are not invisible or expendable! Sadly there are some men and also women who feel so alone that they perceive it to be the case. I understand what Tom and you are saying you want to be wanted, we all do. It is human, God made us that way, Adam felt he was missing something until God made Eve. Even in paradise, with perfect communion with God, Adam needed human companionship. The problem is that we do an Essau, we sell our birthright for a mess of pottage. Essau was so hungry, he traded something lasting and precious for a quick fix. Some physical attention from an attractive person will give a temporary fix to the loneliness but it will ultimately leave only emptiness if it is not part of a meaningful relationship. The world is full of lonely, empty, people living on junk sex. Satan doesn’t want us to find our true happiness in God and he doesn’t even want us to enjoy meaningful relationships with each other. Satan loves the gender wars, he encourages men and women to envy each other. Don’t envy women the inappropriate attention we sometimes get, you are envying junk. I am sorry you and Tom are hurting but please don’t as some men seem to do get angry at women for expressing their hurt at being harassed as if they should be grateful.
Very well said, Esther! So true. And I am sorry that Thomas is lonely as well. I just worry that perhaps part of the reason that he is lonely is his very attitude to things like this.
Amen Esther!
Wow, Esther. That was so beautiful and so true! I love that you used Essau as an example!
I’d also like to point out to Chris and Thomas that men are certainly neither invisible or expendable. I would say that the world has that attitude towards men AND women who are deemed “unattractive” and therefore unworthy of any kind of attention. I notice that men like Tom (and I’d wager a guess that Chris as well) always want the attention of an “attractive” female. Not a loving, loyal, kind, gentle, smart female. They clearly value a certain type of woman and that type only. If a modern day Leah were to approach them and try to strike up a conversation they would probably shun her. They would be telling her that she was invisible and expendable because they only want the attention of a Rachel. Men like Chris and Thomas, they aren’t looking for love. They are looking for a Rachel who will feed their ego and worldly sexual desires. That’s what this is really about. Not that there is no woman willing to give them love or attention, but that the kind of women that they foolishly place all the value on won’t. And I’ve got news for them, until they start valuing people for more than their looks, they won’t find a Rachel or a Leah (and personally, I think Leah is the real catch).
Well said!
Oh Esther, I am not angry at women who express their hurt at being harassed. Definitely not. Am I jealous of most women, since they get more unsolicited attention than I do? Certainly. But angry – not at all.
Thomas, I don’t think you understand how completely insulting and offensive that comment is to most women. You’re jealous of women who are harrassed–because that’s what it feels like to us. So that means that you completely discount our feelings.
Can I give a suggestion? I know that you’re lonely. But if you want to stop being lonely, it may help if you start listening to women, rather than focusing entirely on what you want. If you are interacting with people and you have that attitude (even if you don’t voice it out loud), women will pick up on it and it will make you extremely unattractive to them.
Just listen and respect. That is what God wants you to do.
Samantha, you’re not getting Chris’s point. Men are generally more invisible than women are. Given a man and a woman of the SAME physical attractiveness, the woman will get much more attention. That’s because of several reasons – one of them is that men are generally more assertive than women and so will comment when they are attracted to a woman more than the other way around, and another reason is because men are more visual. When I was young, most people felt I was more physically attractive than either of my sisters, but they got a lot more unsolicited attention than I did. It took me many years to understand why.
As for me wanting an attractive woman, I think it’s vital that I find someone I’m very physically attracted to. I think this is vital for men because we are more visual creatures. There’s a saying that goes “men fall in love with who they’re attracted to, women become attracted to who they’ve fallen in love with”. I think there’s a lot of truth in that. Now does this mean that I don’t want a “loving, loyal, kind, gentle, smart” woman? Not at all. Those qualities are paramount – but attraction for men starts with the eyes.
You write “Men like Chris and Thomas, they aren’t looking for love.” Nothing could be further from the truth! I value love more than anything, but I also know that I have to excited physically about the woman I’m going to fall in love with. Understand now?
Sheila, my bad – I should have been more clear. I’m definitely not jealous of being harassed. I’m jealous of getting unsolicited attention from non-threatening, non-power-wielding, attractive members of the opposite sex. Women get this kind of attention sometimes, and even they often enjoy it, but they very likely get more attention that doesn’t fall into this category. I am not jealous of that kind of attention, and I am sorry for all that scary kind of attention that women get.
Maybe the reason women are “complimented more” than men is because to them, a lot of “compliments” are very uncomfortable. Women are usually more concerned with other people’s comfort than their own. Therefore, they don’t “compliment” men because to them, “compliments” are not positive. They don’t want to make someone else uncomfortable.
Thomas, you want an ‘attractive’ woman to grab you. But when it actually happens you don’t GET to pick and choose? That is the point!
If you chose, that’s consensual. If you didn’t, you get what you get and it’s usually not what you want.
I actually liked Esthers response to my original post. I might not agree with it completley but it was a well reasoned opinion. Then there was Samantha. So let me clear some things up. Samantha, you say I only want an attractive Rachel. I do not know what your definition of attractive is but i know what mine is. And i have endured flak for it from other males my whole life because it didnt fit their definition of beauty. Not all men are attracted to the same things in women. And i know because i am one of them. Also, for the record, i am married to a smart, loving, and very special Leah. And yes, men are expendable. God made us that way for good reason. I am not complaining about it, i just accept it. Jesus gave up his life for us. Men have to be able to give up their lives for their families and society if need be. Its a beautiful thing. Women struggle to understand this about how god made men.
Chris, I genuinely apologize for lumping you in with Thomas. I didn’t know you were married and I think the fact that you are willing to be the kind of man who doesn’t let society dictate his definition of attraction is very refreshing. I do believe that ultimately our spouse should become the epitome of attraction and beauty, but I was attracted to my husband before I loved him. We were friends for years before we dated. I don’t see anything wrong with finding a person that we like attractive. I found a lot of very different guys attractive through my single years. What I was trying to point out was that we shouldn’t make the mistake of narrowing our search for a mate to looks and fail to get to know people of the opposite sex who may actually be really good for us. Pastor Tim Keller said in one of his sermons that Leah was actually a great match for Jacob because they had both had known rejection in their lives. Jacob’s father preferred Essau and didn’t place much value on Jacob. Leah had been rejected and overlooked by everyone her whole life in favor of Rachel. Her own father tricked Jacob into marrying her just to get rid of her. Leah and Jacob could have really found comfort in each other and true affirmation and acceptance for the rejection they had faced. They had a bond. But that wasn’t good enough for Jacob. He wanted worldly beauty to be his comfort and affirmation. Forget having someone who could understand him! And that’s what an awful lot of men and women are willing to do. They are willing to sacrifice having a real bond with someone who can really understand them for the cheap thrill of fleeting worldly looks. I am not saying you are that kind of man. But I am saying there are an awful lot of people looking for love through the wrong lenses. Attraction isn’t wrong. But making it the force that drives you is.
And as far as men being expendable. I don’t think that’s the term God would use for how He created men to be. I believe he wants men to be noble, courageous, strong, self-sacrificing. If that means laying their lives down, then they will be doing it out of love and loyalty to God, family and country. That to me isn’t the same as the word expendable which is defined as “of little significance when compared to an overall purpose, and therefore able to be abandoned”. Men, especially men of God, are of great significance! God didn’t design men to be mere pawns in His great plan. He created them to be his children, His companions. He sacrificed his own son for men and women to be worthy of inheriting eternal life and the Kingdom of God! God did not send Christ to this earth to die because he was expendable. He sent Him to carry out a necessary task for the good and salvation of humanity. Christ was of great significance. If anything is truly expendable it is this earthly life. Men and women need to be willing to lay it down for the glory of God. This life is expendable. Not the people living the life.
What I was reading was really good and I was going to share it right up until I saw the language being used by you. I am disappointed that someone who professes to be a Christian would use that language. I see enough posts and videos of that in sources of information that could be useful from the lost. I don’t expect to see that from someone who is supposed to be saved. I would have shared it if that had been left out.
For the love. Please don’t leave your Christian bubble and interact with real human beings who say things worse than what she said.
Sin is ugly. It’s brutal. And it is downright messy. Using graphic language is sometimes necessary and relevant.
I am disheartened by the number of Pharisees showing up on this. It hurts. What happened to some of us is beyond right and the only response is to throw out some nitpick legalistic holier than thou comment?
It makes God weep. Jesus dealt with these spirits all the time. He rebuked them. He called them vipers, sons of the devil, I can’t imagine those were exactly compliments.
Please stop. Stop with your righteous words that are poison. You are hurting those who desperately need healing.
Sorry Sheila. This is so maddening. I keep telling myself to not read the comments.
Thomas, the whole physical attraction angle has to come first for men is a HUGE distortion of what true love is. We are all creatures made in the image of God. And that includes God’s personality traits and emotions as well. And 2 Samuel 16:7 tells us that God looks on the heart to determine the value of person while man looks on the outer appearance. I think that it’s important to point out that this is referring to man’s way of looking at things AFTER the fall. Not before when we were unspoiled by sin. To look at a person and value them FIRST for their physical appearance IS NOT AN ATTITUDE OF GOD. And therefore it isn’t right no matter how you try to defend it. It is a quality that we should seek to destroy within ourselves to become more like God so that we can love like God loves. The idea that men (and even women for that matter) are somehow more visual and therefore have a right to select their mates based solely on how attractive they judge that person to be is absolutely ridiculous. You know why? Because physical bodies change. They grow old, change with pregnancies, are subject to physical accident and injury. If you need to first and foremost be very physically attracted to the person you marry, what happens if they are in an accident that leaves their body disfigured? Are you going to suddenly stop loving them because you can no longer find them “physically attractive”? What if you were born blind? How would you know whether you were marrying a physically attractive person or not? Being born with sight does not give you the privilege to see others and judge their worthiness to be loved by what you see. It gives you the privilege to see what it is that you love.
So very true, Samantha. And one of the challenges of this life is that we are meant to be be “transformed into the likeness of His Son” (Romans 8:29). The way we do this is by “renewing our minds” (Romans 12:1-2), and by taking every thought captive (2 Corinthians 10:5). If our thoughts are not in alignment with God’s, then we need to change our thoughts. That’s simply the way it is. Just as you said, God wants us to look beyond the physical. And God also wants us to listen to each other and have empathy for one another. Focusing on your own wants is not helping anyone grow.
Amen, Sheila! I wish people would just get to know God and Christ. Really get to know them and allow themselves to be taught and changed. It is truly beyond me that anyone can truly judge someone as unworthy of notice because of their looks. And even worse when they try to play it off as the way God designed them to be attracted to the opposite sex. It is so absolutely ridiculous. It’s like, are you telling me that God really made some people to be considered worthy of love and attention and others to be looked over their whole lives because we have to be very physically attracted to a person before we can love them? I don’t think so. I think God expects us to adopt His way of loving and looking at others so that all of His children have the opportunity to find love and to be loved. Not for their looks, but for who they truly are.
Samantha, you write “are you telling me that God really made some people to be considered worthy of love and attention and others to be looked over their whole lives because we have to be very physically attracted to a person before we can love them?” You’re right – I don’t believe He did. But I also believe that there is almost no woman that SOME guy wouldn’t find physically attractive. So I think men still, for the most part, should look for a woman they are attracted to, physically and otherwise. Given the variety in men’s tastes, nearly every woman is accounted for!
I understand that almost everyone, men and women, claim to have their own personal taste and idea of what qualifies as physically attractive to them. But that’s just the thing. Those are our standards for beauty. Not God’s. And I do believe we allow our own opinions to cloud our ability to see the world and others the way that God does way too often. Everyone is guilty of it, but once a person becomes a Christian they should allow the way they look at things to be replaced by the way God looks at things.
The truth is that it doesn’t matter how much variety there is in men’s or women’s tastes. The problem really isn’t the variety. It’s the attitude that you and others think they have the right to basically tell a person that they aren’t worth getting to know unless they meet your personal standards for beauty. That it doesn’t matter that they are an amazing human being, because they don’t have a hope or a prayer of winning your affections because you didn’t automatically feel attraction from across a room. But it’s not like they should feel hurt by that because we can just comfort them by saying that we are sure that some day SOMEONE is bound to find them attractive.
Samantha, I get what you’re saying, but for a Christian man to choose an appropriate wife, 2 things he needs to feel (and there are others) are: (1) that she is an amazing person, and (2) she is physically attractive to him. #1 takes time to determine, #2 can be ascertained immediately (or close to immediately). So that’s why a man rejects a woman immediately due to her looks, because he can determine that very quickly. He needs time to determine if she is an amazing person. Now God considers #1 to be the more important thing, but both are vital for a marriage, are they not?
So women can look past first impressions about physical attractiveness and get to know a person and then allow what she has learned about that person to influence and alter her first impression of physical attraction, but men can’t. Wow. You make women sound truly amazing while at the same time making men out to be incredibly shallow and narrow-minded. And I notice you are talking about Christian men specifically here.
So man has some sort of God-given right by design to reject a woman based on first impression of physical appearance. But at the same time He created within women the depth and patience to get to know a person first and become attracted second? And this is absolutely a-okay with God because it is totally natural by His design? I’m not buying it. The only point you are proving is that you have a truly shallow opinion of man and how God created them to be. And if a lot of men truly think like you too, I can do nothing but come to the conclusion that an awful lot of men are allowing themselves to become shallower than a puddle in the Sahara.
As I said with my other comments, these are my last responses. I pray you make the effort to get to know God and Christ and allow them to speak truth into your life.
And I don’t know where you heard that saying, but it wasn’t from the Bible and it wasn’t made by someone who follows it. Physical attraction is not evil. It is a gift from God. The fact that we have the ability to find unparalleled beauty in those that we love most in the world is amazing! But when you place physical attraction above the inner person and set it up as a prerequisite to love, you are setting yourself up to become dissatisfied with a changing, aging, imperfect human being. Love HAS to be rooted in the heart of a person whether you are a man or woman. Gender does not give you the right to attempt to define love differently than God does.
And I don’t know what world you grew up in, but I grew up in a family with 6 girls and 2 boys. My brothers were told frequently that they were both handsome boys. My friends constantly had crushes on them. Not only that but my sisters and I were all boy crazy. Having crushes on different boys every week.
The girls I used to work with were constantly flirting with the boys and trying to get their attention. They gave those boys more attention than their job! I honestly don’t know what world you are talking about. I think you are focusing on the fact that women sexualize and allow themselves to be sexualized far more in the media than men do. Those women get WAY too much attention and it needs to stop. But everyday men and women. I have never seen inequality in my own personal life except where the “attractive” vs. “unattractive” men AND women are concerned.
Samantha, your apology above is accepted but not really necessary. How about we make a deal, i will replace the word expendable with sacrificing. It also sounds like you grew up and still live in a rather co-ed family and community. As i mentioned, i am marrried but also a college graduate. In my line of work, having a college degree makes you instant management. Nearly all of my employees are men due to the nature of our work. Most of them, and i am not making this up, don’t even know any women. Its very strange but its true. One of them has a sister and of course they all have mothers but beyond that they really don’t know any. Whats more strange to me is that they dont seem to have any desire to either. One told me he was “full MGTOW”. I didnt even know what that was until i googled it. Most of them also have more than one job so they dont have any time for dating anyway, even if they knew a woman to date. And generationally, they are not into internet dating. Thats why i have come to believe that a lot of very hard working men are invisible to women and are to some extent expendible. In any physical profession you work until your body gives out and then you are done.
Samantha, when a man looks across a room and sees a woman he finds attractive, the first thing he is valuing is her physical beauty. He hasn’t gotten to know her yet. He hasn’t heard a word out of her mouth yet. But you call this sin? I don’t understand.
And you’re arguing against something I never said when you write “The idea that men … have a right to select their mates based solely on how attractive they judge that person to be is absolutely ridiculous.” It IS ridiculous. I also never said that, and I certainly don’t agree with it.
And are you saying that a man doesn’t need to find the woman he likes sexually attractive? If he doesn’t, then how is he supposed to have a sexual marital relationship with her?
I do of course feel that, once a man commits to marrying a woman, he should continue to love her, and remain married to her, even if she loses her beauty to age, accident, etc.
“I think it’s vital that I find someone I’m very physically attracted to. I think this is vital for men because we are more visual creatures.”
“There’s a saying that goes “men fall in love with who they’re attracted to, women become attracted to who they’ve fallen in love with””
You ARE saying that men have a right to choose a woman based on her appearance. Because any woman who doesn’t have the right looks won’t get a chance. You are saying that the looks come first and foremost and any other great qualities that she has are important too but they are not the MOST important. That is opposite of the way God looks at and values people and therefore it is wrong for MEN who are created in the image and likeness of God.
And why is it so insulting and disgusting to you that we should expect men to get married to and have sex with a woman they were not immediately attracted to when they first met? You expect women to do it. In fact, according to that quote you used, women don’t even feel attraction towards a man till she falls in love with him. But a man falls in love with a woman because he finds her attractive? So basically women should be willing to give any man a chance whether or not she finds him physically attractive immediately because ultimately she will fall in love with his personality and she will then find him physically attractive. But men have the right (because of how God designed them) to immediately reject a woman because he doesn’t find her attractive right from the get go. I assure you, God made men and women to be incredibly different. But He did NOT make men to be visual in the sense that they judge a person’s worthiness to be loved based on their physical appearance. God wouldn’t do that because God isn’t like that Himself. God would NOT create within us something that goes against who He is. Anything within us that contradicts the character of God is a part of the sin nature. So yes, saying that men need to be physically attracted to a woman BEFORE he can love her is a sinful way of thinking.
Samantha, no, I’m not saying that “looks come first and foremost”. As I said in my other comment, I’m saying that looks come first … chronologically. And they are definitely not foremost.
Also, I’m not expecting women to get married to and have sex with a man they were not immediately attracted to when they first met. But that often happens. I hear so often of women who say that they not only originally felt that their boyfriend or husband wasn’t physically attractive when they first met him, but they sometimes felt that their boyfriend or husband was originally actually physically REPULSIVE! And yet they’re madly in love with him now. I rarely (if ever) hear of this in reverse – I’ve never heard of a guy who thought a girl was physically gross only to later do a 180.
This is the last time I will be responding because quite frankly, nothing I say will get through to you because you obviously need to get to know God and Jesus first and I pray that you do.
I will beat the dead horse one more time. You ARE saying looks are foremost because a woman has to have looks before the rest will even matter. If you think that sounds like a horrible way to look at people, that’s because it IS. And if you find it hard to admit that this is actually the way you think, then maybe you do have some guilt about it which is a glimmer of hope for change.
Also, I don’t know what women you know, but I have never heard a woman say that she use to find her husband physically repulsive. If you can actually describe another human being that way let alone someone that you love, then that points to some serious heart issues. Saying you didn’t immediately feel a physical attraction is TOTALLY different.
Samantha, sigh. You’re not understanding a simple logical point. If two things A and B are required for X, and you determine that A is missing, then it doesn’t matter if B is present or not – you don’t satisfy the requirements for X. This is simple mathematical logic.
I am sure that if you continue to not listen to men’s point of view- men who serve Christ and are husbands and fathers- tells us we are wrong, not Christian, immoral etc and delete our comments that will go a long way in helping this problem!
Yet another way men and women are different. Men have to and want to deal with the reality of the situation. Better to have the facts and all the information, even if we don’t like it.
Samantha, I wholeheartedly agree with you when you write “Love HAS to be rooted in the heart of a person whether you are a man or woman. ” But then I disagree when you say just above that that it is wrong to have physical attraction a prerequisite to love. As I already asked, how does one have a sexual marital relationship without having physical attraction?
Ok – your personal experience is that women show as much outward attention toward men as men show toward women. That’s not my experience, and given that men are generally more forward and assertive than women, I would say it can’t be most people’s experience.
Ok, Thomas, I already explained myself in the previous comment, but I do want to explain what I mean when I say that it is wrong for physical attraction to be a prerequisite for love. What I really mean is that it is wrong to reject the possibility of growing to love a person because of their looks. Again, I point out that you seem to expect women to look beyond their first impressions of physical appearance (which is what we should all do) but we cannot possibly expect this kind of gracious behavior from men because men need visual stimulation first and foremost and the woman beneath the looks second.
Physical attraction is not wrong. It is natural. It certainly has its place in every romantic and marital relationship. But it does not belong at the top of some checklist that we use to blacklist anyone who does not meet our personal idea of what qualifies as attractive. What’s so wrong with giving everybody a chance to allow their inner beauty to shine through the outer shell? What’s wrong with waiting to judge attractiveness until we actually get to know a person for who they are? Is it so hard to believe that physical attraction can grow out of what you get to know about the inner person? It isn’t hard for you to believe that it is possible for women. So why is it so crazy to believe that it is possible for men too?
Samantha, you write “Is it so hard to believe that physical attraction can grow out of what you get to know about the inner person? It isn’t hard for you to believe that it is possible for women. So why is it so crazy to believe that it is possible for men too?” Answer: because it just doesn’t work this way, for the most part. As I said in my other comment, this happens fairly regularly for women, but it’s EXTREMELY rare for men. A man doesn’t think a woman is physically disgusting only later to think she’s physically gorgeous. It just never (or almost never) happens. It’s the way guys are innately.
So basically, if I understand what you are saying, and I do, women are a lot less shallow than men. If you don’t like how that sounds, then it’s your own fault because you are the one throwing men under the bus here.
I do believe that an awful lot of men (not all men) have grown to become shallow as a result of the “cultural ideal” for female beauty constantly being shoved in our faces everywhere we turn and at all hours of the day. The media truly has done a tremendous job making men and women feel like those are the only women of any worth. With all the jokes reserved for women who are heavier or don’t have those “good looks”. To be fair, these kinds of jokes are directed at the “less attractive” men as well. However, in movies and television, it is pretty common to see the guy who is supposed to be physically unattractive getting the woman who is considered physically attractive and way out of his league. It is NEVER the other way around. Just as you claim that it is EXTREMELY rare for men in real life to end up with a woman he wasn’t immediately attracted to. Hmmm coincidence?
Yes, I believe that if we allow it to, the media can do a very good job brainwashing us. It has a dangerous influence on those who don’t have the wisdom to reject harmful ane false messages.
But, I digress. What you are attempting to do is say that men are that way (shallow) naturally. In other words, that God created them that way. And I am telling you for the last time that God DID NOT create men to value a woman’s looks first and who she is inside second. He wouldn’t have done that, because it contradicts who God is. Man did that to himself. And I do believe that the deeper we allow ourselves to become entrenched in sin, the more natural it will feel. Which is why I believe a lot of men have fooled themselves into believing that they were CREATED to “appreciate” all the “attractive females” that cross their path. The “men are visual” excuse is particularly annoying to me because I am very visually stimulated by my husband and I don’t think God somehow made a mistake and gave me a quality that is reserved for men. I believe the correct statement is that men are more visually TEMPTED than women are. As I said, this is my last response to your attempts to defend why it’s somehow ok and even natural for men to be shallow. I encourage you to get to know God and Jesus.
Proverbs 31, which is actually wisdom/advice for choosing a marriage partner for King Lemuel, lists a lot of different qualities to look for in a wife. Not one of those qualities is physical attractiveness, in fact, it even cautions against that (pro 31:30) ‘charm is deceitful and beauty is passing, but a woman who fears the Lord, she shall be praised.’
Samantha, I would disagree that men needing to find their mate physically attractive is shallow. And I definitely do believe God created men this way, although I realize it has been amplified to a degree that is not good, yes, even sinful.
This is the exact response we should have to the metoo movement. Absolutely beautiful….thank you! 🙂
Thank you!
And one perspective from conservative women.
https://www.chicksonright.com/2017/11/22/teen-vogue-writer-not-concerned-innocent-men-face-false-sexual-assault-allegations/
Shelia,
I appreciate your writing so much. Their is always so much truth in it. Please continue to be a voice for women and for biblical and wise marital sex advice. Their is always so much truth in your writings. This piece was spot on.
Thank you!
Thank you especially for saying that Jesus _sees_ women. I have not heard that before. I mean, obviously I know that he sees us, but what I have heard in church so often over the years is that because Jesus became human, he shared all our human experiences. And I sit there thinking, “But he became human in a male body, so he didn’t share my experience of pregnancy, or miscarriage, or giving birth, or …!” Saying he sees what happens rather than he experienced it makes so much more sense.
I am new to this blog but want to thank you, Sheila, for this particular item. Sheila you say, “For women, sex is something very vulnerable. We are literally allowing someone else into our bodies… What we (women) dream of, what we hold on to, what we even cling to, is this thought, this hope, that we will have an intimate relationship with a man who cherishes us. We want sex to be highly intimate. We believe that this is the way it should be.” This is a good descriptor of the Old Testament, Hebrew word, yada.
Genesis 4:1 (NKJV) says, “Now Adam knew (yada) Eve his wife, and she conceived…”
Yada strongly suggests that Adam respected Eve’s vulnerabilities and he shared his vulnerabilities with her. He did everything he could to get to know how to build her up. He learned what he could to please her. Yada implies a mutual knowing. Husbands in yada relationships do not hide behind a false masculinity, they let their wife into their lives. Both partner’s expose strengths and weakness. Yada requires husbands to love their wife enough to respect her “no” to sexual advances. Yada requires husbands to be trustworthy enough to allow his wife (using your word’s Sheila), “to be vulnerable enough to let him enter”. A low drive spouse (husband or wife) should work hard not to allow, “things” to take away from sexual relationship. Things are things, they will wait, hurting people tend to withdraw and hide.
I am a Christian man, a husband, father and a proud grandfather. I am also a registered nurse and I can say #metoo. When I was in middle management I had a female supervisor jokingly say she wanted to see me with my clothes off. I had a female employee grab my butt. I had a woman at a conference I had never met before try to hold my hand. To those men out there wishing for this type of thing to happened, I can tell you, stop wishing. There is nothing exciting or arousing when it actually happens. It is dismaying and anxiety producing.
So how should a Christian respond? I do not pretend to have all the answers… but I do have some thoughts: #MeToo is often about outing the guilty party. Certainly that has an impact but does God want public shaming? Reporting it to the governing authorities who God put in place to deal with these type of issues is more appropriate, but not always effective.
Jesus teaches in Matthew 5:43-45a (NIV)
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
We can be certain that when God says, “It is very good,” as he did after creating Adam and Eve, the evil one will do his worst to make it very bad. As Christians we must use the full armor of God to fight this war. (Eph 6: 10- 17).