How do you stop emotional abuse?
I’ve run a number of posts on emotional abuse lately. Last week I wrote about how men can be victims of emotional abuse, too, and yesterday I ran a post by my friend Natalie on how to recognize emotional abuse.
The question then becomes, though, what do you do about it?
Natalie has a great community and support group at her blog Emotional Abuse Survivor.
Last week, though, one reader left a really interesting series of comments on how to actually draw some firm boundaries so that you’re not sucked into ridiculous conversations where you are belittled, yelled at, criticized, or blamed for things that were not your fault.
I want to run those comments today, with this caveat. What I’ve noticed when it comes to abusive marriages is that you can divide them into two groups:
- Marriages where a spouse is controlling, critical, and domineering, and where really dysfunctional communication patterns have developed where the spouse treats the other horribly;
- Marriages where one spouse is controlling, critical, and domineering, and the problem is not communication patterns. The problem is that the spouse has a personality or character disorder (usually narcissism).
You see, sometimes we can actually develop an abusive way of relating to one another because we allow someone to treat us badly, and soon that becomes the norm. They end up treating us in ways that, given a different set of circumstances, they would never normally have done. But some people honestly are evil. And no amount of changing how you act can rescue the marriage.
I’ve watched a couple close to me walk through this recently, and I do believe that it’s more a #1 type of marriage. He was controlling, but he also recognizes it now and he wasn’t narcissistic. It’s for marriages like this that these steps listed below may actually restore the marriage. And I posted last year a wonderful story of a marriage that emerged from emotional abuse, because the wife demanded to be treated with respect.
In cases with a narcissistic husband, you should still take these steps because it will keep you sane and it will stop the verbal dance. But it will not fix the marriage, because it’s essentially a character issue.
Are you PeaceKEEPING or PeaceMAKING?
There’s a huge difference between the two. And if you don’t get it right–you’ll never be able to feel truly intimate in your marriage.
There’s a better way!
With that preamble, here’s BCMan (and he’s writing from the perspective of a male being emotionally abused; what he’s saying can just as easily be switched around and it’s still right on):
I was in an abusive marriage for 24 years. I lived with harsh relentless criticism and tolerated verbal abuse on a regular basis.
I’m happy to report that our marriage has been free from abuse for the past three years. I’m 100% certain it will continue “abuse-free”.
My advice to men in abusive relationships. You are in your current situation (to a large part) because the first few times your wife engaged in abusive behaviour, she got her way. She received positive reinforcement for her negative behaviour. By accepting unacceptable behaviour, the unacceptable behaviour became acceptable.
Don’t expect your wife to change. First, you must to change yourself and your response to her behaviour.
Instead of positive reinforcement, provide negative reinforcement for her bad behaviour.
Sheila wisely advises “draw boundaries and confront”. Here’s the step by step implementation plan I used effectively to end my wife’s abusive behaviour in six weeks:
- Get clear on your boundaries. What is the specific behaviour you will no longer accept or tolerate? Write it down (don’t skip this). I wrote “I will no longer tolerate demeaning or belittling speech”.
- What are the exact words you’ll use when confronting that behaviour? Write them down. I wrote “you have a right to feel frustrated or angry; you don’t have a right to demean or belittle me”
- What will be the negative consequence if she continues her behaviour? Think of an action you can take immediately that will clearly show that you no longer tolerate her old behaviour. My action was to end the discussion immediately and leave the room.
- What are the exact words you’ll use to communicate the negative consequence? Write them down. I wrote “stop now or I’m ending this discussion and leaving the room”.
- What is the new behaviour you want her to exhibit and the reward for exhibiting the desired behaviour? I chose resuming the discussion in an environment of mutual respect and working on the resolving the underlying issue that she was angry about.
- What are the exact words you’ll use to communicate the desired behaviour? Write them down. I wrote “I’ll be glad to resume the discussion in a mutually respectful manner and work to resolve what you’re angry about”.
- Anticipate how she will likely react. What are her “go to” strategies she has used in the past when you’ve attempted to stand up and confront her?
Does she:
- Deny her behaviour is abusive?
- Justify or rationalize her behaviour? “I do x only because you do y. If you stopped doing y, I wouldn’t have to do x” or “this is the only way I can get you to listen to me”.
- Deflect and play victim? “I do x but you do y which is so much worse. In fact, you’re the one who should apologize to me”
- Ignore completely whatever she says in her attempt to derail you and restore the status quo. Responding to her specific derailment attempt takes the spotlight off her bad behaviour … and she wins.
- Firmly repeat what you said and start implementing the negative consequence.
- Practice practice practice your lines until you’ve memorized them and can say them without getting flustered in the heat of the moment.
- Execute your new plan.
You may see an escalation in abusive behaviour as she attempts to restore the status quo. STAND FIRM.
After the third implementation within a 6 week period, the verbal abuse stopped completely because it was no longer effective. The new habit of mutually respectful discussion proved more effective.
Great advice! The Big Lesson: Decide what you will not tolerate. Set a consequence. Stick to it. Do not get sucked into any other conversation. Do that, and you will stop the crazy cycle.
Note: sometimes when we start doing that, spouses react very badly, because they are used to having control. If you fear that your spouse may physically harm you, please get you and your children to safety.
A Better Way to Honour God in Your Marriage:
Let’s talk in the comments: Have you ever had to draw clear boundaries about what you will and will not accept? What was the hardest part? How did it work for you?
Sheila Wray Gregoire has been married for 29 years and happily married for 24! She loves traveling around North America with her hubby in their RV, giving her signature "Girl Talk" about sex and marriage. And she's written 7 books. About sex and marriage. See a theme here? Plus she knits. Even in line at the grocery store.
I am copying all this and driving it to my friend today. I am helping a man who is now on day 4 of the cycle. His Wife told him on his lunch break yesterday to get out and take your clothes and don’t come back. Why? Because he won’t argue with her. Of course he has his part in the relationship – he is trying to recover from porn addiction. She is pissed. She was sexually abused growing up. There are so many issues. This particular cycle started because she couldn’t find the air chuck to put air in the tractor tire so she could mow the lawn. It is his fault and he does these things on purpose she says. It has gotten way crazier as the days wear on. His wife told their 6 year old son she has never been closer to murder. It is so sad. He called me from his driveway last night. He took the stand. He is taking the stand. He is breaking the cycle. He asked me. Why is this so painful? I can’t really answer that. But he is doing it. Who knows what today will bring. She has got to be tired by now….when I was in this place as the abuser I got tired around 3 days and would start to surrender- the problem was my wife had to give in…and that was what fed the cycle….in my case it was sex. She knew it too and she would do it just so I wasn’t a jerk until the next cycle. She would even tell me she knew and I just didn’t care because I needed what I thought “fixed me”. You have to take the stand. The pain of breaking the cycle will bring you so much joy you will do flips! Stay with it! You will find LOVE. Ask God to help you. It takes time and a ton of work but it is so worth it to be free! I pray for those who are suffering. I pray you can take the stand. Peace
Phil, thanks for sharing that story! I hope he is able to stand firm. It sounds like they both have huge issues to deal with, but you can’t deal with them if you’re not having productive conversations. And so you must stop that cycle and start listening to each other before you can do any healing. I’ll say a prayer for your friend.
This is not just great advice for emotional abuse within marriage, but in any relationship. Thank you for posting! I come from an emotionally abusive upbringing, so I have to choose my words carefully in the heat of the moment. The Lord has done much healing over the past 12 years, But I am in the process of seeking counseling to deal with my childhood wounds.
I was going to post my own comment, but literally it’s identical to yours! I am currently seeking professional counseling as well, having discovered within the past 3 years that I do have an emotionally abusive family dynamic. I’ve only gone to counseling twice so far, but it’s already been helping tremendously. I’m also getting married in less than 4 months, so that is a major factor in seeking out help. From reading this blog and talking with concerned friends, I realized I needed to get this handled to some degree before December. It’s way too important to try and work on with just the two of us, and dangerously assume it will just work itself out.
I was going to comment about my home life and then saw your comment! Any advice on how to move forward from an emotionally abusive mother? I’ve gone to counseling (it begins as counseling for my parents’ divorce but always comes around to my mom somehow), but they always have tried to bring my mom in at some point and show her which actions are wrong and how they hurt me but she refuses to see it. I’m struggling trying to move past this and stand up for myself still.
Sheila,
Thank you for this, by the way! When I saw the previous posts I thought to myself, what’s the solution? And, here it is!
I was married once before. I didn’t have the mental tools in place for this situation. In my current marriage, this situation arises. I read something before about boundaries, but there were no instructions like what’s outlined in your post here. So, I blindly applied the boundaries. By and large, they’ve worked. However, there have been times when I didn’t have the proper words in place to neutralize the negative behaviors.
I now know what to add to my situation to make it more effective.
Oh, I’m so glad that this helped you, Kimberly! (I hope the original comment writer sees this, too! 🙂 )
I was in an emotionally, verbally, spiritually, financially abusive relationship for 15 years. The concrete detail of this piece is what I finally learned in therapy. These steps are so empowering and will reveal the true heart of the abusive person: whether they seek to improve or roil out of control with selfish frustration. Thank you for sharing this very practical tool!
I’m so glad that you found it helpful!
BCMan certainly has some wisdom when it comes to how to deal with abuse in a marriage! And, as one commenter said above, this is really applicable to all relationships (it could be a family member, work colleague, ‘friend’). I was reminded of a quote that I found (it’s teacher/student related, but really works in any relationship)
“We teach our students how to behave by what we ALLOW, what we STOP, what we IGNORE, and what we REINFORCE.”
I have found that reminding myself of those four capitalised words has helped in my parenting (as a homeschooler), but also in my relationship with my husband.
Praying for courage and strength for anyone who is reading this and facing this kind of situation today.
My spouse’s emotional abuse is in the forum of abandonment and indifference. He covers his personal selfishness by saying he is drawing his boundaries but what that actually means is he wants to live the bachelor’s life and have his family waiting on the sidelines. I am a Stay at home Mom with no income. Removing myself doesn’t help this situation. Any advice?
I’m so sorry! That’s really, really hard. It sounds like the first thing you need is good community around you so that you have some support. Do you belong to a good church? Could you find a moms & tots group to join and get some friends? I think it’s really important to have mentors and friends, and people who do know you. If you’re in the U.S., MOPS groups are really good, and you can find one in your area here. And they have older women who will also act as mentors who can perhaps help you navigate some of this. Again, I’m so sorry!
Yes, Sheila!
I have more to add.
You may not be able to leave now because of your children and financial situation. But, you can live in dignity.
1. Start putting aside a little $$, even if just a dollar here and there.
2. Don’t have any more children.
3. Find online resources like Leslie Vernick to build up strength.
4. Read boundaries in marriage and implement them.
5. Tell your doctor that you are being emotionally abused.
6. Create an escape plan because setting boundaries may escalate the abuse to the point of needing to leave.
Great points, Libl! Thanks for adding them. I totally want to second your suggestion of Leslie Vernick’s site–it’s great. And so is Natalie’s!
I believe I am in a marriage in the first group. We got into terrible cycles of arguing/dysfunctional communication. I was passive and wanted our marriage to work and let him walk all over me for years, not knowing that he was battling porn addiction and also had a history of sexual abuse which he never shared with me prior to marriage.
i started reading this blog, Leslie vernick and Natalie’s blog and I cannot express enough how helpful it was to me simply to know I was not crazy, and I was not alone! Two things that have stuck with me that one of them wrote is that ” it will get worse before it will get better” , and that ” you have to be willing to let the relationship go (if you start implementing boundaries etc)”.
I silently repeated this to myself on the night where I refused to engage in his tirade, and he went on a rampage trying to find every self help and marriage book I had and threw it in the garbage.l, etc to try to get me to react. I didn’t. At that point I was dying inside not knowing if he would turn to physical violence and the thought that I would have to follow through with a separation . He then followed me into a bathroom and wouldn’t let me leave because he wanted to “talk” so eventually I called his mother. I told him if he ever did that again I would call the police. And it sounds terrible and I still feel like I will never love him the way I used to again but after that night he has treated me with more respect than ever before. He finally agreed to some counselling and he is making an effort to be better. And I don’t think he is a true narcissist , he loves his kids and his family and says he loves me( but he tends to be neglectful , uncaring of my feelingsetc) but I’m in a waiting game now, to see if his change is real.
I grew up in a very conservative community , and I wish I had known these things when I was dating/ newlywed… I could have saved myself a world of heartache.
Hi there,
I’m so glad that you’re starting to see some hope! That’s wonderful. And I’m so glad that you stuck to it. Your husband needs to change for his own good, too. That’s what many women don’t realize–by refusing to set boundaries, they’re not operating in a loving way, because it isn’t loving to allow your husband to do these things.
I’m glad that you found these blogs and books and that they’re helping you. I’ll say a prayer for you.
Hopeful,
He sounds like a sexual abuse victim. I was abused and didn’t tell my husband until my father went to jail and I couldn’t keep it a secret any longer.
He endured 20 years of emotional and verbal abuse, a checked out wife during sex and just emotionally unavailable. We had moments of connection, but for most of the marriage we were friends with benefits
I felt nothing. Even I didn’t understand my behaviour. I was regularly cycling unto suicide and I’d use the threat of it to control him. I was beyond terrified of him leaving and feeling abandoned and not safe.
It just screws up a child so much that adulthood can be excruciating.
Mercifully Abba has helped me heal. And him. Enough that he can sit in a counselors office and tell me I’m abusive. Which made me cry. Because I don’t want to be that way.
It’s awkward having boundaries. I have no idea how to communicate. We are going to be in counseling for a long time… But I feel like I have more control over my life and that I’m now more his wife than I have ever been.
Getting to this spot… It’s been almost 7 years of emotional pain and work and I have way more to go. I want to quit, but I won’t, because I love him.
The best thing my husband ever said was, “I am not playing your game anymore.” It gave me permission to heal.
Oh, thank you so much for sharing your story, Taunya! That’s very helpful.
Also Sounds helpful for dealing with teens who have gotten used to manipulating to get their way.
Yes! Absolutely. Couldn’t agree more. I think it’s just smart to set these kind of boundaries in general with people.
I have emotional abused my wife and I feel ashamed and embarrassed that I have done this. We have split up for now with the chance of the D word at some point. I did tell that I shouldn’t have done what I did and that I was sorry. Since we have split up I have started counseling to make myself better and stop what I did in the hope of getting my back. But she says no at the moment a d might no for good. So if there are abuser ready this….
Please take a look at what you are doing and stop before you lose that person. Because you don’t want to be in my position….
Thank you for taking the time to read this…
I’m at a loss of what to do. I don’t deny my shortcomings in my marriage but my husband literally rolls his eyes and ignores me when I ask the most basic questions. I’m pretty sure I’m being emotionally abused but how do you set boundaries when the threat to walk away or leave the marriage is what he says he wants?
Great article. You dont have to be married to a person or even friends or even meet the person often enough. When a pro abuser gets to you he knows exactly how to abuse you. I have always been very careful of men with abuse having been married and divorced at a very young age and the guy being manipulative, but I still got fooled this time around. Thankfully I have a lot of things going on in comparison to which an abusive person in an alleged long distance relationship, seems minor but boy has it been a show ! I do not think anyone should stay with an abusive person. They usually have a personality disorder. They are usually psychopaths. It is not a mild form of mental illness, an abusive person is mentally ill. Period.
Abuse is a very dangerous something and should be taking seriously by people. Thanks for this article
I hope this blog is still open. It has been 28 years for me and We have a 12 year old so leaving only brings the abuse directed to my daughter. It’s all mental abuse with a character disorder. Blames me for everything and when I set boundaries, she tries to kill herself. I think she really would! It’s like literally fighting a demon. Knows all the tricks.
Geof, I sometimes think that in fact it is demonic posession, especially when it comes to BPD. I’ve seen others say the same thing on these forums. There are a huge amount of behaviors that are evil and they are exactly the same between people, and most are done unconsciously. How is that possible? Or when they deny being someplace with you shortly after you were there, or deny that they said a certain thing. It’s like there is a demon that takes over and the person is not there.
To add to the conversation here as someone who has studied psychology, I want to be careful not to label something as demonic when it’s often caused by a great deal of trauma to the individual.
When it comes to BPD, like all other mental illnesses and personality disorders, you can be a Christian and suffer from BPD. In fact, one of the leading psychologists in BPD research was herself a Christian but she wasn’t immediately healed when she found Jesus. She will always have BPD, but she can manage her symptoms and the disorder better with a therapy program that she designed herself and is how the standard practice for BPD clients.
Although I do believe that we can face evil forces in this world, let’s not label psychological illnesses as demonic possession when there are so many who are seeking help for their disorders. I prefer keeping them separate; if you want to say that someone is possessed, don’t then say that they have BPD. It is very vilifying of those who have the disorder, which again is often caused by a great deal of trauma at an early age.
When you mention personality disorders, you say that usually it it NPD – narcissistic personality disorder. That is a fairly common disorder for men, but women much more frequently have BPD – borderline personality disorder. The emotional abuse from women (or men) with BPD is similar to NPD. Even those who don’t meet the criteria for the disorder can still have some of the traits, and they ruin a relationship, and ruin the life and psyche of the abused. If you go to a counselor, you’ll be told that you have to love one another and communicate, etc. But this is impossible until the disordered person gets help, which is unlikely to happen, because cluster B personality disordered people tend to blame others and not accept responsibility. I am a man who has been emotionally abused (and physically, too) over years of marriage. At the beginning I drew clear boundaries and did not put up with it. But that didn’t work. After hundreds of episodes of being screamed at and put down over meaningless things, I started to bite the bullet and allow her to walk all over me. It’s no better or worse now, but at least I don’t have to expend all the energy to battle against the Injustice if a situation that will never improve.
I been. Married for 20 years and I am insulated every single day to the point I have completely lost the person I once was! I have now began to try and search for anything that I can do right, my husband doesn’t seem to think I do anything right yet he stays with me ?! I ask him why since everyday he complains about me! He can’t even tell me one thing. He says if I change he will stop treating me this way and I will have the marriage I’ve always wanted! I change but it’s never good enough! He’s totally convinced me of what a worthless human being I am it’s very sad. I need to keep myself from completely drowning. Help me someone
Michelle, that is very, very wrong, and I’m so, so sorry. It sounds like you really need to be talking to a counsellor or a mentor so that you can get the strength to draw some boundaries and stand up to him. Just because he says those things does not mean you need to listen. Please talk to someone who knows about emotional abuse, because it’s very hard to navigate this alone.
I am emotionally exhausted, I have been in a relationship for almost 3 years. It started off a bit tumultuous, since he was going back and forth with his ex gf, of which I wasn’t aware since he repeatedly stated it was over. When it finally was he started behaving strangely, out of nowhere he would accuse me of cheating and demanded checking my vagina every day I came home from work. What I thought was a bit weird, kinky but since I wasn’t cheating I was ok with it, at the beginning. Then he started claiming that he could see based upon the color that I was cheating, he would text me almost non stop -while I was at work- to send him pictures of me at the desk. Needless to say I lost that job, the next job was just the same. He installed several locators on my phone, asking why I was outside when I was at my desk. I got defensive after being accused constantly without doing anything. I caught him on the other hand twice, texting other women that he had contacted on a dating app and the texts were juicy. When I confronted him he blamed me for it. He doesn’t want to be second best, which is not true, I have build everything around him, I am not allowed to go with my girl friends anywhere. We tried counseling, since now I have started to feel anxiety as soon as I leave my office, he is sure that I have cheated and even asked for a lie detector test. He thinks my job is to sleep with men on the job or clients, when I try to establish boundaries and leave the apartment when it gets heated he accuses me of going to sleep with someone in the parking lot where I sit in the car trying to cool off. He thinks I am doing drugs, which I don;t do, he is the one with addiction problems. I’m so sick of being probed every day when I come home and then he accuses me of sleeping around again, that I don’t even enjoy being intimate with him, since I have started menopause I am feeling a lot of pain. He has forced me to get checked by 4 different doctors and asked them why my vagina changes color, to which they replied it could be many factors, stress, high blood pressure, sitting prolonged hours , pH etc, however that is not enough for him. I wake up in the middle of the night because he starts ranting by himself saying that I am a whore , that I am cheating on him etc. I started looking up narcissistic behavior, I think he might have that plus some other issues. I love him however it it never enough for him, like I said we have tried counseling before, however he played the victim and we never really addressed what he is doing to me. I am getting paranoid myself, if I scratch my head I have to stop , if there is not enough hairspray on my head I had sex at work, I can’t wear perfume, I love wearing dresses, he thinks I’m dressing up for sex at work. He goes through my purse taking out hand lotion, lip stick etc. If I don’t text him -even though he is sleeping most of the time, since he is disabled, I had sex. I am sick of justifying myself for something I haven’t done.
Hi, on the off chance that you might see this 2 mos after the fact, I want you to know that I am so sorry for what you’ve been going through, and also – this is abnormal, destructive, sinful behavior on his part. Have you ever heard the saying, “Don’t throw good money after bad”?* Don’t throw good years after bad.
2) If you’re not married, RUN. If you are married, DON’T have kids.
3) DO get into counselling, by yourself. You need the support, you need to know why you’ve been submitting to this treatment., and you need the personal space (and guidance) to heal. This can be done in person locally, but there are also counselors who will do phone, or skype (type), or text-based counselling, which allows you to be more discreet.
4) If it’s legal in your state to record conversations w/out informing the other party, then you need to install an app on your phone to automatically record calls (try to hide it in a hidden folder AND also stop showing your phone to him. Please put a password on it). You can get another app for voice recording (so you can record in-person conversations). Both are available for free. This is so important, because it can be hard to get people to believe you otherwise – even yourself. A lot of abused people feel that they are going crazy, and it’s easy to revert to “did I remember that correctly? Am I reading bad motives into this?” And if he threatens you, you’ll have proof for law enforcement.
5) Read Leslie Vernick’s blog (use an incognito window, whether it’s your computer or phone), and her books (check your library system).
I’m so sorry for what you’re going through!
*(It’s like, if you buy a worn-out car thinking it was reliable, and you have to spend thousands of dollars to keep in running. You don’t want to “waste” the money you invested by scrapping the car and buying again, so you end up spending more to keep the car running than it would cost to buy a better car. Throwing good money after bad. )
My husband is emotionally & sometimes verbally abusive to me. My problem is whenever there is an issue at hand he never talks about it so in my mind it’s unresolved and he doesn’t wanna talk about it ever. I can’t say how I feel or we can’t come to a way to stop the reoccurrence. Then I feel withdrawn and disrespected. How do I fix that
I have the same exact issue with my significant other.
I know the feeling. Horrible when things that can be a 5 min productive conversation and instead it get swept under rug. Just simple lil things that if resolved would help you feel understood and closer.
I almost want to say that these individuals are afraid of vulnerability and have very low self analysis. Might get some sprinkles every so often. We don’t argue often but when we do this shutting down is the greatest source of frustration for me.
If you are not married or related to a person who has Borderline Personality Disorder, leave, run as fast as you can, and never look back. They are demons in human form. The sex of the monster does not matter. If you have to live with or put up with one who is a relative who you have to deal with, you’re going to have to learn to detach from their constant abuse. You cannot confront one of these people.
I found a really good video online regarding this, it was an Australian lady, I don’t have the link.
VHRT and others that have commented on BPD.
I am really concerned about your comments about demonisation and running from people with BPD. BPD is a condition rooted in trauma and to suggest a person must have a demon could be considered spiritual abuse. Further people with BPD need validation as part of their healing and to respond to them as these posts suggest could further their trauma and create harm.
People are abusive because they choose to be. There are people with BPD who are not abusive and others without BPD who are abusive.
Generalising about a person or condition such as BPD and saying that all people who have it are bad or demonised does a lot of harm to people who are already suffering. In my opinion hateful comments such as these are based on stereotypes and promote further stigma.
If you are saying your own partner has BPD and behaves abusively then I would encourage you to look at resources about abuse – even with the BPD an abuser has choices. The BPD may well in that case be being used as an excuse. However, if my partner accused me of demon possession due to a diagnosable condition I’d be seriously considering whether I was the one being abused. By the way I don’t have BPD but do have considerable experience in mental health.
The best place I’ve found to help establish safety from emotional abuse it Betrayal Trauma Recovery btr.org
so can anyone help me with setting some boundaries with my wife who loves to withhold affection and intimacy? I’m not referring to only sex when I say emotional withholding i mean Coldness replaces warmth. Silence replaces conversation. Turning away replaces turning towards. Dismissiveness replaces receptivity. And contempt replaces respect. Emotional withholding is, I believe, the toughest tactic to deal with when trying to create and maintain a healthy relationship, because it plays on our deepest fears—rejection, unworthiness, shame and guilt, the worry that we’ve done something wrong or failed or worse, that there’s something wrong with us. Honestly this behavior has been going on a decade since our first son was born… and after a few tours to Afghanistan.. I have been diagnosed with PTSD and as of a few months ago clinical depression but I digress any guidance or suggestions at this point is greatly appreciated and thank you in advance!