Does God love men more than women?
Every now and then I receive an email that makes my heart hurt. Recently I got this one, from a woman who is looking at the Bible, and looking around at her church, and ending up wondering if God really loves women. She asks:
So, I have a question that’s going to sound horrible but it’s just honest. Does God care more about men than He does women? I mean it started out that He only made Adam and then He decided to make Eve as his helpmeet because it wasn’t good for man to be alone. So then he makes women, who are weaker than men so they cannot defend themselves. He makes them have all these feelings just so they will always care about men and children. He makes their (apparently) most important aspect to be beauty which fades with age and childbearing. The men however, he makes to be strong and have little to no feelings. He made them to (apparently) all want other women than who they have. The only time God got mad at David was when he took another man’s wife and compared it to stealing a lamb which was property. And then continued to say that if he wanted more, God would have given him another wife… yeah, why not throw him another woman? I mean the whole Bible seems to say this is true. And yet, women tend to be more religious than men. In a world where every religion thinks less of women. It’s not like I think He doesn’t care but maybe just less. I’m hoping to be proved wrong.
I’m glad she asked the question, because I think it’s one many of us struggle with. I know I did! When I was 16, I started to ask all of these same questions. And I wondered: If God honestly preferred boys to me simply because of their genitals, then can I love a God like that? The good part is asking questions may feel uncomfortable, but God is big enough to defend Himself. And in the asking I grew closer to God!
My youngest daughter had an experience recently where a Christian leader, whom she was close to, said to her, “Do you ever wish God had made you a boy, so that you could have had a bigger ministry?” In other words, God made a mistake by making her merely a girl.
We hear this all the time–“it’s too bad you’re only a girl.” And it makes us start to question God.
And so today I’d just like to take each of her points and tell you how I see it, and then maybe we can have a good conversation about it in the comments!
“He made Adam first”–so is male the preferred gender, the default?
Actually, there’s great literature that says that gender didn’t come until after Eve was created. Adam was genderless, and THEN “male and female” He created them.
But even if that’s not so, it’s very clear that BOTH male and female are in the image of God.
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. (Genesis 1:27)
And God Himself uses feminine imagery to refer to Himself at times, as Jesus says here (and this is only one example):
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.” (Matthew 23:37).
“Eve was made as a “helpmeet””
Yes, she was, but helpmeet (despite what Debi Pearl may say) has no connotation of inferiority. The Hebrew word is “ezer”, and it is used 21 times in the Old Testament. 16 of them it refers directly to God as our Helper, and God is obviously not inferior to us! It also has a strong military connotation–“He is our help and shield.”
The other key is the very next word in the Hebrew–suitable. She is a suitable helper, meaning that she is created to help Adam from a position of strength in every way. Help, then, isn’t about a servant relationship, but instead someone that he actually needs in order to accomplish the tasks that God has given him.
“Women are created as weaker than men”
Yes, we are physically weaker. But I wonder if it is also so that we are more cuddly as mothers? Women were also created to endure more pain than men and to live longer than men, so I’m not sure if physical strength means that we are lesser. I think there are gives and takes on both sides. The downside is that women are susceptible to attack far more than men are. And yet men were also created with one part of them which, if you kick it right, can bring them to their knees howling in pain.
“He makes them have all these feelings so that they will care about men and children.”
Okay, this one is actually quite insightful! Loving our husbands and our children is a blessing. But I think what she’s getting at here is that women too often are martyrs for their husbands and children, and care too much and thus are more susceptible to extreme emotional hurt.
That’s true. But it’s not the way we were created; it’s part of the curse, in the same way that Adam finding the ground hard to till is part of the curse.
Genesis 3:16 says:
To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
Now, some translations of the Bible actually mistranslate this verse and give it a really ugly slant. Some write that “women’s desire will be to control her husband.” That connotation is not in the Hebrew, and that interpretation was never made before 1974, when Susan Foh popularized it. (more on that incorrect interpretation here).
That interpretation makes no logical sense. In the context, God is giving a list of curses–you’ll have pain in childbirth; you’ll desire your husband to your own detriment; he will rule over you. If Susan Foh’s translation, which is now widely accepted, was correct, then it’s a sin rather than a curse and the list goes away. You’d have curse (pain in childbirth); sin (desire to control your husband); curse (he will rule over you). The Hebrew points to a straightforward, traditional interpretation–we have loved men and put up with men who weren’t worthy of us, and we have been subject to abuse in our quest for love and belonging.
“He makes their important aspect to be beauty which fades”
I do agree that women’s beauty is prized far too much in our society. Women are judged on our beauty. And we judge ourselves terribly on it, too!
Yet nowhere does it say that our most important characteristic is our beauty. In fact, the Bible clearly says otherwise:
Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised. (Proverbs 31:30)
Again, it is true that men seem to be more visually stimulated than women, and that has made men more susceptible to pornography addictions that have hurt their wives so much. There is so much pain here. But God never says that beauty is our main characteristic. Our culture does, and our culture is a part of the fall.
“God makes men emotionally strong with little to no feelings”
I’m not sure that this is a benefit! Yes, men do tend to be more compartmentalized, and not as multitasking as women, which means that men can separate work from relationship more. And men do seem to have a harder time, in general, getting in touch with their feelings.
This may appear to be a benefit, since the person who is more emotionally dependent seems at a disadvantage in a relationship, and it can seem as if we’re always the ones searching for connection.
Yet research shows that those who are able to express their feelings also live longer and more contented lives. And we tend to have closer relationships, especially with our children! I think I’d take the women’s lot in this one, honestly.
“God made men to want women other than the one they have”
It does certainly seem that way–men aren’t as monogamous as women. Yet research, again, does not necessarily bear this out. One recent large scale international study found that 63% of men and 45% of women reported cheating at least once (I doubt it’s truly that high). I’ve seen other studies that have women cheating more, especially among certain groups (university educated who work outside the home).
In the past men have tended to cheat more, but that may be because they had more opportunity, since they were away from home more and mingling with single women more. Women, who were largely at home, may not have had as much chance. When the chance is greater, it seems that women do cheat as well.
“The only time God got mad at David was when he stole another man’s wife–and he compared her to a stolen lamb, like she was property.”
God did get mad at David for infidelity with Bathsheba, and then arranging to have Uriah killed. But this wasn’t the only time God got angry. In fact, the time that God let his wrath really flow was actually when David was prideful and measured his armies rather than relying on God, and then God brought calamity to Israel because of it (2 Samuel 24).
The prophet Nathan did compare Bathsheba to a lamb, but not just property. A lamb that was loved (so much so that it even slept in bed with its master!). That’s not to say that I’d want to be compared to a well-loved lamb; it’s only to say that it’s not as straightforward as saying that God thought Bathsheba was Uriah’s property.
When I approach marriage in the Old Testament, I understand that God permitted things He didn’t agree with. The Israelites lived in a very patriarchal society where polygamy was practiced. The fact that the patriarchs had multiple wives does not mean that God approved of that or wanted that. In fact, God designed us to be one-man one-woman. In Genesis 2:24, God says:
That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
In the New Testament we see monogamy being reclaimed. Leaders of the church must be monogamous. Marriage is set up as a beautiful institution only between two people. But that was not how it was seen in the Old Testament, and I doubt real love existed, as much as we may try to read it into some of the stories. It was a very different culture, and I feel for the women at the time who were disregarded, and for the men who never knew real intimacy (so much so that David felt more intimate with a best friend than with a wife; shows how badly they got it wrong). Let’s just remember that the Old Testament is a description of what happened, not a prescription that we are to follow.
“…and then the Bible continued to say that if David wanted more, God would have given him another wife… yeah, why not throw him another woman?”
Again, I don’t think this is God saying that women don’t matter or that marriage doesn’t matter. He’s just telling David, if you truly want something, there’s a way to do it the right way. And you chose the wrong way. But no, God didn’t want David to have a bunch more wives. He even warns against having multiple wives when He instructs the kings!
“And yet, women tend to be more religious than men.”
Yes, we do! I think it’s that “last shall be first, and first shall be last” thing. When you aren’t as strong, you recognize your need for God more. When you are more emotional and relational, you yearn for more intimacy. Again, I’m grateful God made me this way!
“It’s not like I think He doesn’t care but maybe just less.”
I don’t believe that all. I think the Bible tells us that God loves women! Let me end with this:
- Do you know to whom God first revealed that Jesus would be born? Mary, a woman.
- Do you know to whom Jesus first revealed that He was the Son of God? The Samaritan woman at the well.
- Do you know to whom Jesus first revealed Himself after He was raised? To the women at the tomb.
- Do you know whom Jesus appointed as the first missionary of the gospel? Mary Magdalene, a woman.
In a culture where women’s testimony was not worth as much as men’s, where women were discounted, and where women were scorned, Jesus went out of His way to honour women and give them key roles in spreading the gospel.
He doesn’t care about us less; He elevates us.
Don’t ever let anyone tell you that Jesus doesn’t love women as much as men.
It is a lie. And it is intended to drive a wedge between you and God and make you feel helpless and hopeless. I went through that at 16, and it’s not pretty. I never felt so alone. But when you know that Jesus loves you, as a woman, and that He delights in you, as a woman–well, that is beautiful indeed.
Still worried about it? Ask God. Pound on His door. He’s God. He can take it!
Let me know in the comments: Have you ever wondered whether God cares more about men than women? Let’s talk about it!
Sheila Wray Gregoire has been married for 25 years and happily married for 20! She loves traveling around North America with her hubby in their RV, giving her signature "Girl Talk" about sex and marriage. And she's written 8 books. About sex and marriage. See a theme here? Plus she knits. Even in line at the grocery store.
I saw a book title recently that I want to read called Is the Bible Good for Women, to which I feel the unequivocal answer is YES!! My question is whether the CHURCH is good for women. Unfortunately in many ways I feel the answer throughout history hasn’t always been so positive. No matter your view on the role of women in the church, both the Old and the New Testament make it very clear that God cares DEEPLY about the care and flourishing of His daughters, even in (especially in!) adverse circumstances. I dream of a church (having grown up in conservative circles) where men pour themselves out in cultivating an environment where women and children truly flourish and blossom.
That’s beautiful, Kay. Absolutely!
I guess I should clarify that I believe that human flourishing should be our goal as Christians period. I just happen to come from a denomination rife with a toxic form of patriarchy, so I am speaking to the change I’d like to see in my own church here.
I remember this old cartoon from the Far Side: It shows God up in heaven, sitting before this control board and computer screen. On that screen is some person. In front of God is this huge button labeled “SMITE”.
I often feel right next to that is a smaller button, called “SMITE JOHN”, just so he wouldn’t even have to look for me on the computer screen, he could just hit the button.
No, doesn’t like men more than women. I’d maybe even argue that he likes women more! There’d be no human race without women (He’s God – he coulda made men have the babies). Mary carried Himself as a child. How often is Joseph talked about? Hardly at all. Even gentile women have a direct lineage to Jesus (Rahab and Ruth).
Quite frankly, I often feel like men got a raw deal here (which I know is not true). I’m supposed to be like Jesus? Great – talk about something that can never be done, so I’m a failure from the very beginning.
It is only because of bad teachings (sadly its primarly by church, and thus primarily by men since most churches are led by men), and by the bad treatment of women BY men, that someone could believe God liked men more than women.
Don’t ever believe it!
Thank you, John!
Had to thought if it that way. Thank you. And God does love us all.
John, I’ve had similar thoughts while reading through Ephesians 5, which has unfortunately been used to great harm against women by sinful men. My understanding of it, however? Really it should be the MEN balking at this passage when properly understood, because us wives get a pretty sweet deal and the heaviest burden is laid on the husband. (Not that this is favoritism. We each have our own high calling, and in everything, we are ALL called to be like Jesus, so we are equally “failures from the beginning.” Thankfully we are equally covered by grace, eh?)
In all, I think part of redemption is redeeming ANY perceived gender gap (as far as God’s favoritism), or from any division, with an end goal of unity, between us and God and between one another. Just as you said, wherever there are feelings of favoritism, you can be sure sin/bad teaching is involved somewhere.
I don’t understand what you mean by saying “men got the raw deal”. Women, too, are called to be just like Jesus and it is just as hard for them as it is for men.
I needed to hear that all i have been threw with men who say they love God and live in sin by abusing women by using the Bible to do so and reading the Bible and seeing how women were treated and to make ot worse God tells men how to deal with a woman i dont know im in a painful place i need to hear God dose love women thank you for your opinion and this article helps i love this article
Speaking of family of origin… I am so grateful for mine. This question literally never occurred to me. My paternal grandmother was something of a force of nature apparently (she died when I was 7). There were 5000 people at her funeral, including a couple of US congressmen and flowers from state officials. She was the head of a division of Oklahoma employment agency for years, a strong professional woman back in the 1950s, as well as extremely active in her church and charitable outreach. She was also noisy and opinionated.
If I had ever even hinted to my dad that a woman was weaker or somehow inferior or less capable than a man, he would have been confused and possibly angry. My dad is not exactly cuddly or patient or empathetic, but he was raised by a woman who was completely fearless and owned the world, and he had nothing but respect for her. He (and my amazing mom) raised me the same way.
I have always recognized that men and women are different, but never ever had I felt less than. This is another one of those occasions when I need to give them a call and say thanks.
Sounds like that was a wonderful family! I had a wonderful one, too, with very strong women who did amazing things for God, even before their time!
But what about Leviticus 27: 1-7, or Leviticus 12: 1-5? I know it’s the Old Testament, and we’re supposedly no longer under Levitical law, but you really cannot avoid the conclusion that at the very least, that God viewed women as something “other” than men, and it wasn’t a good thing. I appreciate your heart in this, Sheila, but nope, I am becoming more and more convinced that the Bible was written by men, to men, and if it weren’t for the presence and witness of Jesus, I’d have walked away from Christianity by now.
Anna, I hear where you’re coming from. Here’s the way I reconcile it: The whole point of the Law was to show us that it was impossible and to point us to our need for grace. And one of the best examples of that is in Jesus’ lineage. Think of what the Law said should happen to prostitutes–and yet God deliberately put Rahab in Jesus’ lineage. And any descendant of Moab wasn’t to be considered part of Israel for the tenth generation–and yet King David was the one through whom the promise of the King came, and David’s great-grandmother was Ruth, a Moabite.
Technically these women should not have been in the lineage. They shouldn’t even have been considered part of the accepted Jewish community. But they were.
God made all of these rules, and then went out of His way to break them in favour of grace.
Then, in the New Testament, we hear that there is “no Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus.” All of that doesn’t matter.
I know it’s tough, and I understand the struggle. And I also think that God is big enough for our questions and our struggles and our frustrations, and so keep asking!
God absolutely loves all of his children equally, yet I admit to struggling with feeling “less than”, even to this day. Not because of God, or his precious words in the Bible, but because of how men twist the scriptures to fit their agenda and keep their wives “in the place.”
Yes, that is really tragic. And such a travesty, that turns so many people away from a real relationship with God.
AMEN: making it a bit difficult to share the Gospel….. :/
I really love this answer. I hate that women are so often in a position where they feel they need to prove themselves and their worth.
I have wondered this from time to time being a woman. A few other examples I can think of that make me think the former.
-In the Old Testament, women were given longer recovery times from birth (i.e. required sacrifices) if they had a boy over a girl. Even in some cultures today prefer having boys over girls (China for example).
-In the Old Testament, a woman’s word wasn’t admissible in their court system.
-There was an old Jewish tradition that required men every morning when they first wake up to say, “Thank you God for making me a Jew and not a Gentile; free and not a slave; man and not a woman.” Imagine hearing that every morning from your husband? That would definitely make me feel like a second class citizen.
-The Bible calls us to be more like Jesus. How am I supposed to do that if He’s a man and I am not?
Those are to name a few. I’m starting to transform my thinking to think the latter.
-The Bible says that sin didn’t enter the world until ADAM ate the fruit.
-There’s an old joke that says when God created the world, men were the rough draft and women were the final draft. But that can make women feel superior to men.
-There’s another inspiration phrase that says, “Woman was made from man’s rib. Not from his feet to be trampled on. Not from his head to be over him but from his side to be protected, his equal, and near to his heart to be loved.”
Actually, Kasey, the time of uncleanness is longer after giving birth to a girl, not a boy. Not to mention diving into all the days she was unclean because of her period. She’d have likely been unclean for half the month! Then, to purify herself after, she had to offer a SIN offering! Not just a burnt offering, but both a burnt and sin offering. Now tell me, how does that speak to a society that depended on following those rules?
It just seems like Judaism and Christianity, like pretty much other major religions, has one set of rules and experiences for males, and a different one for females. When does that end? If it doesn’t end with Christ, then when?
There’s a lot here to respond to. First off, the after-effects of birth. It is biased, against boys! The mother gets more bonding time with the daughter and gets to cherish the daughter more.
For being like Jesus, I think another way to look at it is here: http://www.christianthinktank.com/wmisgyn.html
In fact, God is portrayed in very feminine terms.
http://www.christianthinktank.com/wnogod.html
Jewish culture did have a low view of women? Absolutely! Fortunately, Jesus corrected that. Women were part of His entourage even and the first testifiers to the resurrection were women. When Paul sends his letter of Romans to be read, he sends it in the hands of a woman, who would not just read it, but would be expected to understand it, explain it, and answer questions about it.
Women are very dear to the heart of God. Men in fact are called to love their wives as Christ loved the church and be willing to die for them. That was unheard of in Paul’s time. House rules were always written to tell how the other members could serve the male. Paul makes the men do most of the hard work.
Hope this helps!
Great article and thank you for addressing it. I loved your comment “is a description of what happened, not a prescription that we are to follow.”. The old Tesatment pagan behaviors are not something we are to attribute to God or hold as an example. The reason the Israelite nation was allowed to be invaded and taken in slavery was BEACUSE of their choices and how they treated women is an indication that instead of being a light to the world they just continually fell in sin.
This is a great article, really insightful. I love when you say that a helpmate is not an inferior position, this is so true but so often we do not realise it.
Sheila. I’d like to say something about 2 Samuel 12 and the more wives. It’s really a misunderstanding the questioner has that is common to have and understandable. What is being described is that everything Saul had, including his wives, was given to David. In other words, David inherited all that Saul had. (This is why Absalom set up a tent and went and slept with David’s concubines. That was a way of showing who was in charge.) It’s not saying God would have given more wives. After all, God had given him Israel and Judah in the same passage and the reach of Israel with land was never to go beyond that. God would have given David more if it had been needed, but there’s no reason to think that includes more wives just like it couldn’t include more land.
Very interesting, Nick!
Glad to contribute. My ministry is an apologetics one and this is a common kind of objection raised to say that God endorsed polygamy in the OT. He didn’t. It was a borderline practice allowed and it always led to trouble.
If I may give my opinion, I feel that the Bible is often very misogynistic. I don’t believe it is the Word of God.
I also don’t believe God likes men better than women. Men are killed more than women, men live shorter lives than women, men have to go and die in wars, men have to sacrifice their lives more, men get more diseases, women usually control the dating world, and on and on. I feel men got the shaft more than women.
What about it is misogynistic?
The Old Testament.
In what way? Do you mean the part that says men and women both fully bear the image of God?
And… Women get monthly periods for which they are required to offer a sin offering and be unclean. Women can be and are raped. Women bare and are often abandoned to care for children. Women are taken and used and sold as property at the end of almost every war – most of which were started by power hungry men. In almost every culture in the world, women are mostly voiceless, given little to no choice in marriage, politics, etc. If we want to play the comparison game of which gender had it worse, we could make lists all day long!
But here’s the thing. How gender and sin nature play out together is vastly different from God’s design, as stated in the Bible. And even the aspects of His design that we happen to dislike – well, those things are reality whether we like them or not. Do we spend the short years of our lives fighting Him, fighting His design, hating what we are made to be because we don’t understand it? Or, in the bold step of acceptance, might we find peace in not knowing, in trusting a Designer Who claims to love us, in submitting to the design and searching for His purpose in it?
Wow! So many questions in one email. I’m glad she asked them so you could shed some light on them for us, Sheila! I like how you broke down the part about woman being made to care for their husbands and children and how often times woman can put themselves into the martyr role. This spoke to me a lot as a mom to a 3 year old and a 6 month old. What a great post though to remind me that I am loved by God equally. And that my husband and I are partners in this life, marriage and family!
Glad you liked it, Cassie!
Forever and always, I’m going to struggle with this topic. I grew up in a very “Stepford wives” kind of church community and then my mom initiated a divorce after enduring years of slowly escalating abuse and an unknown number of affairs.
She was the one who got punished.
Growing up in an abusive home himself, he learned really young how to manipulate and charm his way out of bad situations, and of course had an extremely authoritarian doctrine.
I appreciate the many sacrifices and hardships my mom went through, but it ultimately made her crazy to the point that she is now just toxic to be around. I spent my teenage years finding religion, romantic relationships, and women in general all stupid and worse than useless.
Long story short, I’m in a yo-yo cycle with reconciling with God, I eventually settled down and married to a sweet patient man (though in a twisted way I sometimes wish he wasn’t), but I still can’t stand myself or other women.
I believe in stoicism and other masculine traits that I can’t even get for myself. Instead, I end up with that same brain that other women have and find myself acting childish, being passive-aggressive, and self-victimizing. I struggle in the workplace, but am even worse at cooking and cleaning, so there really is no place for me.
At this point, it doesn’t even occur to me to ask if I’m being loved “enough.” The question is, rather, should I as a woman even expect to be happy when it would take away from my purpose of serving and producing for my husband?
Wow, Jo, that’s a huge question you’ve asked! And it certainly sounds as if you’ve had a huge amount to deal with growing up.
And that baggage definitely follows us.
I guess I just don’t understand the last question: “should I as a woman even expect to be happy when it would take away from my purpose of serving and producing for my husband?” Why the dichotomy? Not trying to argue, I just don’t understand what you’re getting at. Do you mean that you can’t be happy while your husband is also happy? Or that your purpose is to serve your husband?
I don’t think that last part is biblical–our purpose is to serve God, and one way we do that is through loving our husbands. But our focus should always be on God for our purpose. Maybe that’s where the problem is?
Get thee to a therapist, ASAP. That level of self-loathing and misogyny is not normal, or healthy. You need help, a lot more help than the comment section of this little corner of the internet will be able to provide, professional help. There’s a lot that needs to be untangled before you can start to heal from these toxic ideas, so the sooner you start the better.
You’ve set for yourself an impossible standard of behavior! Even men themselves struggle to measure up to such standards all the time. It takes a lot of work for them to become the sort of stoic, emotionally repressed people you idealize, it’s doesn’t come naturally. You have to start very young, you have to start teaching them as little toddlers to suppress all their emotions and act all “tough.” They start out as sweet, sensitive, emotional little boys and by the time their parents/guardians and society are through with them they become hard, cold, emotionally stunted and angry men. Many are barely able to function, let alone thrive in a healthy manner. And those are the successes! Most AREN’T able to completely purge all the soft, warm, HUMAN parts of their personality, and consequently struggle (to varying degrees) with the same feelings of self-loathing and inadequacy you seem to struggle with. Do not envy them, what has been done to them was no kindness. They need help too, just as much as you do.
Breaking my self-imposed vow of silence here to say this: Sheila, you are so Catholic and you don’t even know it.
🙂
There is a book written by Victoria Boyston titled God’s Magnum Opus that dives into how God truly feels about women. It could be a huge blessing for women who struggle with seeing themselves as “less than”. It was also biblically sound, as far as I could tell anyway. Thank you for sharing this email and your loving counsel.
Thanks for that recommendation!
I have a lot to say to this. I will try to keep it short.
First, we do live in a fallen world and we must keep in mind that we all read the bible through lenses of our experiences and cultural conditioning. The best way to struggle through questions like this is to pray and keep reading the word. Asking God to unearth our own blind spots and heal brokenness through His truth. You’re right Sheila, God can handle our questioning Him.
Now I believe one critical thing is to separate worth from role. God never said that one task or role is more important than the other, but our human cultures we do make that distinction. We can clearly see that we pay some jobs more money than others even though society wouldn’t be able to function without the less valued jobs. It’s a side effect of sin and pride. Still even in our different roles we are all worth the same. We are all created for unconditional love. We are all to be respected as a person.
Now for gender roles, there is a clear biological difference in function of our bodies. That we feel so bad about our roles as women is because of faulty thinking which is toxic in our society. We value career/money more than human souls. God values people and relationship more than money. If we value people more, child bearing, marriage etc all become highly important, worthy of our time, love and best efforts, because essentially we are given the task to nourish these souls so they will be godly people. (Malachi 2) this is not to say that women can’t have careers or that this is our sole purpose, but it is very clear by design that we are meant to nurture our families (the baby growing in the womb, the body growing the placenta, breastfeeding). Many Christian women would agree in theory with yet they still do not feel content or happy about this, and I believe the reason for this is because society thinks that these tasks are a waste of time, not worth much. We try to somehow gain the worlds approval, when we need to learn to accept that we are worthy of God’s love simply because we are created to be loved, and our tasks are worth our while because God called us to them. What society or even the church thinks doesn’t matter.
Now most of the scriptures that ‘degrade’ women are often twofold, putting men in their place often in the same sentence, yet we are conditioned to see only the anti-women part. in the end we are interdependent. Men can’t be without women, women can’t be without men. We need each other.
Some random thoughts:
*The Holy Spirit in Hebrew is female.
* there are many scriptures praising women (like psalm 45/ proverbs 31/ Song of Songs/ proverbs 18:22)
*just like women are supposed to be like Jesus, men are the bride of Christ too
This is such an important key to peace and contentment: “and our tasks are worth our while because God called us to them.” Exactly! But it’s hard to accept that sometimes, isn’t it?
The reason why the “anti-woman” parts of scripture gets all the attention is because the flip side parts directed at men are almost never talked about, almost never preached, and never, ever used to justify systematic oppression, silencing, and shaming of men in the same way that scripture has been (and continues to be) used against women.
Here’s an example: everyone knows about how women were considered unclean according to OT law when they had their periods. EVERYONE. But how many people know that men were also considered unclean for an entire day anytime they had an “emission of semen” for any reason? It’s true! See Leviticus 15: 16-18 if you don’t believe me.
I was very surprised when I learned about that one day, quite by accident, as I was looking for different passage entirely. And that’s pretty much the ONLY way I could ever have learned about that, because no one ever TALKS about it in church. Not so much as a passing mention. No one even knows about this bizarre little OT law! Meanwhile, women get all the period shaming heaped on our heads by the church and everyone else, for something we can’t control or help having. Is that fair? No!
So it’s only right and proper that THAT injustice should get more attention than an injustice that doesn’t EXIST. There is period shaming, but there is no equivalent for men, no “ejaculation shaming” going on. The house on fire is the one that should get attention from the fire department, not the one a full 10 blocks away that isn’t burning to the ground. And this is a relatively minor issue, compared to the much worse abuses often heaped on women by the church that have also been justified with scripture. It’s just a symptom of a larger problem, a systemwide bias against women, that needs to be addressed and not ignored. Because when half the body of Christ is oppressed and in pain, then the WHOLE body suffers as well. As you so rightly say, we need each other. We are all interconnected, we all depend on others.
Sorry this comment went on so much longer than anticipated, trim it down if you think it needs it, Sheila. 🙂 I always start out meaning to be succinct, but then the words just keep coming, lol!
It was great! No trimming needed. 🙂
I grew up in an Afrikaans society where men are the head and women the support. Some Afrikaans families definitely view their women as less than – in very traditional Afrikaans homes, the husband will eat first, then the kids and the wife last (some families allow the wives to eat after the husband). But, in more modern families, that has completely changed. The basis of this, though, is purely respect – although it has definitely been abused, but men ate first as a sign of respect – NOT BECAUSE WOMEN WERE LESS THAN. And I do understand this, but I think I have God to thank for this, I have never ever viewed women as less than – not even myself. To me, we’re just different expressions of the same wholeness that makes us human – both men and women. Neither can exist without the other and neither can live a truly authentic life without the other (and I’m not even referring directly to marriage here – but rather to the fact that men and women are different, thereby bringing different gifts and attributes to the table).
Every single example above of women being viewed as less than is all cultural. Whether from Jewish culture, to Muslim or western. When it comes to God’s heart – I know that He loves us completely, truly and totally! He adores us (and men, too), because HE IS LOVE! HE gave His son for us, just as much for men – so, although my gifts may be different to my husband, I am definitely not less than.
In fact, last night we were watching Vikings and in Season 3 the Queen of Wessex wanted to study and handle (heaven forbid) the sacred texts. And there was this whole debate as to whether a woman should be allowed to. That was the culture though – definitely not the heart of God.
Hi Baby Mama! Wow, I didn’t know that about Afrikaans culture. So interesting! I think that you’re right, that it is all cultural. I’m glad you grew up without ever fearing that God didn’t like you as a girl. That really is a blessing.
I’m not convinced. Even encoded in the ten commandments, it says, “don’t covet your neighbor’s wife.” Why? Because she’s property. All over the Levitical law, which IS NOT cultural, but supposedly from God’s mouth to Moses’ ear, are instructions about the ceremonial uncleanness of healthy women, actual valuations of human worth in monetary terms, commands to stone brides on the wedding night if they don’t bleed (ignoring real facts of female anatomy), ignoring the agency of women to make vows. So God made all those laws and rules so he could break them? Then did they matter, and if they didn’t, why make women labor under such heavy burdens for so many centuries?
The New Testament is its own hot mess. Even John 1:13, which is supposed to be explaining salvation truth, seems to say (no, pretty much DOES say) that female consent was not even CONSIDERED in marital sex. And exclusive female submission in marriage…how is treating a wife like a perpetual child not treating her as something that is an appendage to men? Yes, other individuals are called to submit, but in none of those cases are they called to submit for a lifetime, and for no other reason than existing as they are. (Children to parents, employee to employer, military ranking, etc.) Not the same. So why WOULDN’T a woman conclude that there’s a fundamental difference in how God sees us?
I hear you, Anna, I really do. And I’ve struggled with this, too.
There really isn’t space here to address all of your concerns, so let me leave with two general things. First, so many scholars have been wrestling with the things that you’re wrestling with, and have found really good answers. A lot of the problems that stem from how women are seen in church really is a misunderstanding of some of these passages. And there are other ways to see them! For people who are wanting to leave the faith because they don’t think God likes women, just know that there are other interpretations of the Bible that are very biblically sound that see things differently. Check out the resource page here, for instance.
As for your question about why wouldn’t a woman conclude there’s a difference, I guess I’d put a personal one here. Because I can’t live with a God like that. And I believe that I was created in God’s image, and that my yearning is to know God. So if I’m fundamentally upset and wounded, then I just can’t believe that the problem is with God. It makes no sense, and it doesn’t fit with the desires of my heart, which I know are God-given. And I don’t want to spend my life distant from God. I want to really know Him. So if what I’m being taught is making me think that God doesn’t value me, then I’m going to fight against that. I’m going to not believe it. I’m going to investigate until I find peace. Because I know my only chance for real peace and love in this earth and beyond is with Jesus, and so I’m going to fight for it, and I’m not going to allow other people’s opinions to pull me away from God. That’s why. And I just hope and pray that you keep fighting, too!
I will check out that link. But first, thank you for actually wrestling with my questions honestly. I’ve given enough pat answers in my time to know them when I see them, and nobody likes to be patronized. Thanks for not doing that.
Oh, Anna, you’re so welcome! And I do hope you find some of those links helpful. Never stop asking questions. That’s how we grow. And a faith that can’t sustain itself when questions come isn’t a real faith.
Anna. A few things.
First off, if my wife asks me to go to the store and gives me a list of bread, milk, bananas, cereal, and soap, am I to assume that since she says we needed things to eat, that soap is something I eat? In the same way, not coveting a man’s wife does not mean that she is counted as property just because other things in the list are.
For stoning on the wedding night, it must be remembered that Old Testament Law is not like American Law. A single law of ours fully explained can be longer than the Torah itself. The law is didactic. It was a general guiding principle, but other regulations could be made. Note that men were also to be judged for wrongs that they did to women in Old Testament Law and in adultery, both parties were to be put to death.
As for John 1:13, let’s suppose Jews did see it that way beforehand. What does Paul say in 1 Cor. 7? A woman is not to deny her husband his marital rights. Her body belongs to him. Everyone in the audience at this point is agreeing. Then Paul says “Nor is the husband to deny the woman her marital rights. His body belongs to her.” That mutual ownership and not denying was counter-cultural. The same with Paul saying that men were to lay down their lives for their wives.
As for submission, someone does have to lead and as much as my wife and I know this, I have never pulled out Ephesians 5 on her. My rule is that if a man is the king of his castle, and I think he is, his wife gets treated like a queen.
You might want to listen to, and Sheila might as well, an interview I did on Jesus and women with Lynn Cohick, a female New Testament scholar at Wheaton.
http://www.deeperwatersapologetics.com/podcasts/20140221LynnCohick.mp3
Okay, it is taking every ounce of self-control for me not to begin this reply with…
Nick. A few things.
Well, I failed. I publicly confess my lack of self-control. I feel you rattled off those rebuttals in an effort to get me to hurry and shut up and agree with you, without really listening with an open heart. I am trying to be as honest as I know how here. I don’t agree with you.
Is it not clear that the “don’t covet” commandment is unequivocally assuming a male listener? It does not say, don’t covet your neighbor’s spouse. Women are just used to reading scriptures like this, and doing the best we can to insert ourselves to try and understand how it could apply to us. Frankly, it’s gotten old for me.
You have missed my point about stoning brides. The point wasn’t, isn’t it awful that they brutally killed either spouse for adultery? It was, isn’t it awful that they were commanded to brutally kill women for doing nothing? For being guilty of only possessing a hymen that was a little out of the ordinary in its shape and anatomy? You do know that not every woman having sex for the first time bleeds?
1 Corinthians 7 (not my original reference, but you assume everyone agrees with how you see it). You say “his body belongs to her” means he has to give up the sex any time she wants it. I say it means your body belongs to me and I don’t want it touching me tonight. Not to mention, I don’t think the purpose of guaranteeing women right to sex had anything to do with making sure she got the good times too–I strongly suspect it had more to do with guaranteeing she had an opportunity to have children, because it was the equivalent to her Social Security.
Submission. I don’t agree that every personal relationship needs a “leader.” I have tons that don’t, and you likely do to. I have professional relationships that don’t need ” leaders.” My 31-year partnership marriage has been fine without someone possessing a veto.
See, I know all those arguments. I HAVE MADE THEM. I just got very tired of going around trying to make the case that the Bible is super for women.
I think I’m with Anna here about the leader issue. We’ve been married for 25 years, and I don’t remember a time when we haven’t been able to come to a decision so we’ve just done what Keith wants. Our philosophy is that we should be following God’s will, so if we’re not in agreement, either one of us isn’t hearing from God, or both of us aren’t hearing from God, and so we had better figure it out! And we do.
The idea that we need someone to make a final decision has an underlying assumption that two Christians can’t agree. That isn’t biblical. His sheep know His voice; we all have the same Holy Spirit. I think the expectation should be that two Christians SHOULD be able to come to agreement.
In fact, I worry that this expectation that two people will not be able to make a decision together without someone having the final say sets up couples to fail. It says, “it’s normal for two people to disagree.” And if it’s normal for two people to disagree, then why try to work through it when you do?
If, on the other hand, you believe that it’s normal for two people to be able to discern God’s will together, then when you have a problem, you are drawn ever deeper into prayer.
What we think is normal really impacts how we act in day-to-day marriage. Do we assume we won’t agree, or do we assume we’ll walk together? I believe that many people have simple communication issues, but because they assume that two people won’t agree, they don’t figure out how to resolve those issues. They figure they’re a matter of gender roles. And I do believe that this underlying belief is truly hurting marriages. I should write more about that sometime!
Dear Anna,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your heart. It hurts to read some of your painful questions–just like it hurts to read some parts of the Bible–just as it hurts to see how some of the husband/wife male/female relationships in my family are so warped and damaged by sin–even when they want to be loving. The verse that comes to mind is from Romans 8 — all of creation is groaning with pain, like a woman in the pain of childbirth. I’ve delivered three babies without any medication, and thinking of feeling that pain again and again really does give me a good picture of how the whole world is subject to pain and hurt since the Fall. God made women physically and emotionally more vulnerable, and because of sin, that makes us an easier target throughout human history for abuse, oppression, and hurt. And we have been hurt, and are hurt, and will be hurt. It makes me long for the day when everything is made right. Come, Lord Jesus!
What I do believe is that God does NOT approve of the “weaker vessel” being taken advantage of, or devalued. Even the OT rules that strike me as offensive and misogynistic, even hurtful do protect women at a very basic, strength=power level. And when we see the law being fulfilled in the ministry of Christ–then we go from “you are at the mercy of men because they are stronger, here are some codified protections” to “there is neither slave nor free, male nor female…” — to my husband being as much mine as I am his.
Being weaker in the measurements which lend themselves to worldly power is frightening. It makes me, as a woman, vulnerable to real damage. But God turns worldly power on its head. The last shall be first–the first last. It’s an upside down way of thinking. But being more vulberable (and having been wounded because of that) means, for me at least, that I have an access to hurt with and to love others that someone who hasn’t been wounded would find more difficult. Being a mother makes me more dependent, and more vulnerable–forces me to make sacrifices I probably would never choose–but it also has cracked my heart open and made me more able to love not just my family, but sons and daughters of people whom I’ve never met personally. Having my heart broken has made it easier for my heart to break for others.
That sounds like I’m getting a raw deal, but only when I calculate things by the world’s values. It is so much more precious–valuable–honorable to love others than it is to be stronger or leas vulnerable. And I think part of the DISADVANTAGE of privilege is how easy it is to miss how much the “weaker” part is NEEDED. Failing to truly value the less powerful/privileged damages the privileged as well as the disadvantaged, but that damage is easier to ignore.
Anna, I don’t really have an answer for how horrible the world is sometimes (so often). I do know that God is just. We are all sinners, and Christ is our only hope. And every offense against the weak, the oppressed, the vulnerable will be brought before Him on the last day. And it will be met with justice–either in the punishment Jesus took up for us, or in Hell. He does not ignore the evil we (humans) have done.
I don’t think I’ve communicated very well. But I wanted to say that yes, your pain and anger are justified. But I do believe, because I have found Him so good and so kind–that He IS good. And He promises all will be made right in the end. All our offenses cannot undo that. Some days I weep with the pain of now, but He promises the end will be joyful (John 15).
I am sorry this comment has grown so long. Thank you so much for your ministry, Sheila.
Waiting for God to clean up everybody’s mess in the sweet by and by only creates more wounded in the here and now. No thanks.
I know this is an old thread. Anna, if you’re still reading this or contributing, thank you. These are issues I think about and study continuously. I do feel very much like you do about this issue.
It really breaks my heart to hear your struggles with this! I have a few thoughts that I hope can help.
First, the Law was not God’s”plan” for mankind. It was not His design or His wish. His design for mankind was companionship with Himself, which can only occur when mankind is holy – something we are not. In dealing with the children of Israel, he was dealing with a group of people who did not live well or honor Him, and who insisted they could make themselves good enough apart from God’s grace and provision. Therefore, the law is two fold. It proves we literally cannot be as clean as God. And it manages the behavior of sinners – it does not even attempt to change their heart!
So, when it says a woman is unclean in the time surrounding her period, it also says a man is unclean for a whole day ever time he ejaculates. And everything an unclean person touches is unclean, so… Try to imagine how on earth these people did their daily work, or managed to interact! When mama is “unclean”, either she sits in a chair and does nothing all day (which, as a busy mama myself sounds deceptively nice!) or she cooks an unclean dinner and cares for unclean children and washes some unclean clothes for her husband. Then, when her period is finally over, I would imagine Daddy gets a little unclean pretty often – particularly since the Law specifies that he cannot diminish his martial duty towards his wife (and every high drive wife says Amen!). Unless their sex drives were vastly different than ours, this is a people that literally couldn’t start clean. And that was God’s point. Not that he believes it sex drive or monthly period to be sinful and wrong – He just wanted humanity to realize they need Him, and that He is enough! (And from the perspective of a woman who’s husband pesters her for sexual favors when she is on her cycle or recovering from childbirth – using that 1 Corinthians passage about not denying each hither as his reasoning- I am a little sad that there is no longer a bit of sexual space granted to me!)
But also, the law is God’s way of managing broken people. They already treated women as property. They already had multiple wives. He did not attempt to change their hearts but he did set in place rules. He wrote quite a few rules on how a man has to treat his wife, giving her the right to his financial provision and protection, as well as to his physical connection with her. If he accused her of adultery in an attempt to divorce her, she was subject to a “test” that basically required God to perform a miracle in her body if she was in fact guilty. And if no such miracle occurred, she was considered innocent.
All that to say, none of the law was God’s will for people. He makes it clear in the New Testament that the law was an allowance for the “hardness of men’s hearts”. Christ came to change our hearts, and now that standard for treating women is “love your wife – one wife! – as Christ loved the church”. A woman’s role is still pretty different from a man’s, but that is a different issue altogether.
As far as submission goes, the Bible does add the caveat “in the Lord”, which would free a wife from submitting to sinful and damaging things. And submission is only required between a wife and get husband, not between women in general and men in general. And submission does not mean you cannot disagree with your husband, just that when the decision does down, he gets the final say – but he is also held responsible for the results, whereas the wife is free from that responsibility. There are a lot of pros and cons to the submission thing.
Anyway, those are some thoughts I had. I hope they help! If not, I’m truly sorry, and I pray your find the answers for which you are looking!
Hi, Anna.
No. Not rattling things off here. I just know the comments are supposed to be under 400 words in length generally and those longer have to be modded so I don’t want to take too much time.
Of course the commands are largely given to the men. This society is patriarchal. But, that doesn’t mean that the counterpart would not apply. (Men can’t murder but women can?) In that sense, I would have no problem with a more gender free translation that changed wife to spouse. The essence is still the same.
For the stoning, I think you missed what I said about it. The law is didactic. It is a starting principle for advice. It is not the only way. It is not necessarily even a hard and fast rule. The judges would hear both sides of an issue and make a decision.
Still, adultery was a much bigger issue in that world than ours. You did not have paternity tests that you could go and see who the father was. This would get into how inheritances are passed down and who owns property and that was all sacred because the land was a gift of God to the people. It also destroyed the integrity of the people and the people as a whole were called to represent God. It is a great mistake to take our values and our idea of goodness and put them on the ancients. We must read the text in their context and in their situation.
For 1 Corinthians 7, I think Paul is actually at the start encouraging the Corinthians to NOT marry. Why? There’s a famine in the land. Children at the time means extra mouths to feed which can be a burden. Still, the reason Paul gives for not having sexual refusal is in the text. Lack of self-control. He says nothing explicitly about children. It’s also to be a two-way street. Sexual refusal does hurt marriages, though I do agree there are times it could be necessary, such as a husband having affairs or using porn.
As for leaders, when you have more than one person together, ultimately, one person will normally prove to be the more dominant. It could be unsung, but it happens.
And as for the Bible being super for women, check and see. The early feminists who got women the right to vote went to the Bible. The Bible elevated women above any other text of the time. Jesus Himself did the same. You are fully in the image of God. That is what the Bible says about you as a woman. You’re not going to get that anywhere else in the ancient world. Jesus had women as His disciples. Scandalous at the time, but Jesus did it.
Is it perfect? Does it lay out modern feminism? No. It sets the bar moving in that direction. It’s much the same way it does with slavery. The Bible never explicitly condemns it, but the seeds of its destruction are in the text.
No. This isn’t trying to brush you off or anything. It’s really trying to take the text as it stands and see how it really treats women. Is it always perfect? Of course not. It’s still far better than the ancient world elsewhere.
Look, I think we’re done. I do think you’re trying to be helpful, so I can leave it there. I don’t feel like you were actually listening, or that I was being heard by you, but hey, I harbor no ill will. Be blessed.
Those are wonderful thoughts! Thanks for taking the time to write them out!
I agree. Women in a nutshell are garbage to God. Men are created as far superior beings to women and women are here to serve men. Women are to be fully submitted to the man’s full authority over her. Yes, God does see men as more important especially that wives are to help men meet God’s calling for their lives…nowhere are women called to meet their calling but are only to serve men in theirs. Yes, men are more important. Women are disposable and put here to serve men, the leaders, the strong and humbly and silently submit to his authority. Leaders are greater than servants and therefore more important.
Keto, that’s just simply not what the Bible says. I know that many believe this, but it’s not biblical. I’d encourage you to read this article on how submission doesn’t mean that he makes the decisions, and there are others linked within it that can further that thought.
I too have struggled with this idea for a few years now. I am about to get married and feeling like this can sometimes cause me so much sadness and pain because right now a lot of my life is focused on the relationship between husband and wife. I guess the two things that always get me are 1. sex because it just seems so uneven in the idea that men rarely experience pain, are easily satisfied, and seem to care more about the physical than women do. and 2. the idea of being a helper because often times people make it seem like life should revolve around the husband and the wife is to “complete” him by doing everything he needs to do to fulfill his role, pursue his passions and and be happy. Now I realize that if the husband (which mine will) earns more money/plans on working more because I would stay home with children, you have to move according to his job and possibly structure some of your life around his job, but some people make it seem that this job of completing a man means that life is all about him and my callings, passions and dreams take second rank. I know God made Adam first, so Eve was then created to complete him, but don’t husbands and wives complete each other in their partnership? Do men not have just as big of a role of helping and leading their wives to become all that they are supposed to be? And I know the word helper has a much more powerful meaning than it seems, but it still seems like its all about the man and what we can do to help them and they never have to return the favor. What exactly are we helping them do? I guess I always thought that each marriage has a mission, which can include a lot of things like raising children, having certain jobs, bringing people to christ, and all of that and then the man leads in getting that done and the woman helps, but a woman can help by having a job of her own and witnessing to people that way or starting her own ministry. But then sometimes I feel like that is not what helper means. I guess what I am saying is a struggle with this too and as someone who is about to be married it is not always a fun place to be. Especially because talking about it to my husband to be does not always go well because it sounds pretty selfish when I basically tell him “I don’t want it to be all about you” because in reality I do, but I want him to be all about me.
Grace, those are great thoughts, and it’s so important to wrestle through them before you marry!
Let me deal with the help one for a second. I think what you’re saying is that if women are to help men, then it must be men’s agenda that matters, because she’s helping him, not the other way around. However, that interpretation doesn’t really jibe with Scripture, because in the Bible God is called our “ezer” (helper) multiple times. And it’s not our agenda that He’s helping us with; it’s His. So just because one helps another does not mean that the other’s agenda is winning the day. The fact that we were created as a suitable helper means that we are suitable in every way to stand alongside him. So it’s really a position of equality and strength.
My husband earned more money than me for most of our marriage, so I took care of the kids and we did move for his job. And you know what? Looking back, that was such a privilege. And I truly mean that. I really think I got the better end of the deal there! I loved being home with my kids. It was wonderful. And I loved being able to focus on the family. It really was a luxury and a blessing. But while I was home, I also found other things to do (that’s where the blog and writing started). So it’s not like I didn’t have my own calling or that I wasn’t important.
I think the big thing is can you decide together what your goals are as a family? Can you pray together about where it is that you’re heading, and make that decision together? And then, once you get that vision, you both play your parts to get there. But it isn’t that you’re less important. It really isn’t.
Didn’t you say once, Sheila, that a marriage can only support one big calling at a time? And that whose calling it is can change over time? And I agree, Grace a faith journey is too big and too exciting for women to always live theirs looking at the back of their husband’s head. (Due credit: that’s a paraphrase of Rachel Held Evans’ words.)
Yep! I did say that. Forget where. If I remember what blog post I’ll link to it. But I know in our marriage it’s shifted back and forth. I think when two people are trying too hard to go in different directions it’s very hard to keep the family strong.
@ Grace
Grace asked, “Don’t husbands and wives complete each other?”
What verse in the Bible tells us that spouses complete each other? That’s not in the Bible. This idea about spouses completing one another is an over romanticized myth, and it’s not Biblical.
Wives cannot complete their husbands, and husbands can’t complete their wives. Only God can complete a person, and marital status has absolutely nothing to do with it. As believers, we are COMPLETE through our union with Christ – not a spouse.
Colossians 2:10
Please don’t subscribe to the myth that you can complete your spouse or that he can complete you because there’s no Bible verse to support that, and that mindset will only cause you and your spouse undue stress.
I know what you’re saying–but I think Grace does have a point, too. In marriage, we do become “one flesh”. There’s a sense that we’re a different entity, truly united and intimate, in a way that we weren’t before. No, we don’t complete each other, in the sense that we were missing some part of our identity that only a spouse can fill. That is God’s role. But God also did say that it’s not good for people to be alone, and He did make us to be truly intimate. I do think that when we marry, we should aim to be intimate and to feel like partners who are working together. So while you’re totally right, it’s not that they complete us, because God does that–there also is a sense where we’re totally together. I think that’s what marriage is.
Shelia:
I agree with what you have said here about marriage. Marriage is a partnership, and that’s extremely important since some Christian camps reduce marriage to a master and slave relationship.
I commented on the myth
about spouses completing each other because I think it’s important for couples to have realistic expections in marriage; that’s not to downplay or negate any of the aspects of marriage that you mentioned.
According to her post, Grace is engaged. As you know, new brides will face their own set of challenges. With that in mind, I want her to know that it’s not her job to complete her husband. Fortunately, that’s not a burden she has to shoulder. That realization can be liberating and take a load off her mind. On the other hand, she really shouldn’t expect her husband to complete her either. That’s an unrealstic expectation. I guess I’m getting at the difference between a realistic expectation vs. unrealistic expectation. Unrealistic expectations (like expecting your spouse to complete you) can have a devastating effect on a marriage.
That is so true, and it’s important to keep in mind. I think we do have this idea that, if we’re not totally happy now, it’s only because we’re not married, and once we’re married, the husband will fill up our happiness cup. Definitely not true!
Hi Grace,
Jolene Engle of the Marriage Mentor podcast is currently doing a series on Biblical marriage. As far as I can tell, it is very scripturally sound. She doesn’t shy away from the hard topics! It might be worth a listen while you prepare for marriage.
There is one big calling in marriage. Ours. My wife’s success is my success. My success is her success. We are not competitors. We are allies working together on the same team.
btw, with regard to fear of sex, believe it or not, men get it too. Before we got married, I was awfully nervous. It was a totally new experience. Pain for women can be common. The problem is some women here so much about it that they get tense and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Just relax. If things go wrong on the honeymoon, laugh about it. It’s not the end of the world.
Nick, I really think you miss her point regarding the unequalness of sex. “Men get nervous before their wedding night” is not the same thing as women experiencing great pain and difficulty, sometimes for months or years, women struggling to achieve orgasm while men can general climax within five minutes, women struggling with monthly hormones that prevent arousal while most men are easily and quickly aroused, and the list could go on. I know you are trying to relate to what she is saying, but really you are trivializing it by comparing it to a much more slight situation that you experienced – “nervousness”. And your suggestion to “laugh about it” if things go wrong on the honeymoon is fine and dandy unless you are the one who experienced excruciating pain, bleeding and embarrassment from the whole experience.
Re: anonymous se,
Yea. That right there reminds me that it does seem that sex is all for the guy, no matter how people try to spin it. God created it but many women get the short end of the stick there and to me that’s pretty messed up. Plus women are told every day to put it out there to help and bless their husbands, even if their equipment doesn’t work quite right. But if your hubby’s equipment doesn’t work quite right then he’s completely off the hook for you because “oh well they can’t do it without their equipment working” and you are told to go easy on them and not remind them about mouths or fingers, etc.
Bethadilly, I agree there seems to be some unequal treatment of this in churches! (of course, I don’t actually think they should talk about this in so much specificity anyways) I think men have to learn a little technique and should work at making their wives happy as well.
I tend to agree. While I do cling to faith in the God who made us, and I believe He has a plan in all of this, sex and everything, it sure appears to be male -centric. The ONE time my husband couldn’t get an erection, due to some medication he was taking, we didn’t have sex. To be honest,I would have felt really weird and selfish to ask for oral or manual anyway. But every month when my cycle roles around, he (and the preaching in church supports him), expects some kind of servicing from me.
Nick’s comment rubbed me the wrong way because of his attitude of both understanding her concerns (by comparing them to a much smaller concern – kind of like comparing labor with a common cold), and of giving her his “simple” fix – “it’s all in your head” and “laugh it off”. It was a bit rude, and demeaning.
Hi there,
I’m so sorry that you’re struggling with this, too! Really I am. I just want to emphasize, though, that this idea that women have to satisfy men during their periods is really not in the Bible at all. If anything, the Bible says the opposite (women weren’t supposed to have sex during their periods and thus were to be left alone). I know that many preachers say this, but it’s definitely not what I’ve said. I think it’s a huge misunderstanding and abuse of what God made sex for. God wants sex to be totally intimate on three levels–emotional, spiritual, and physical. The way it becomes intimate is because it’s totally and completely mutual. That doesn’t mean you can’t give each other “a gift”, so to speak, but it does mean that expecting sexual favours when someone can’t have sex for a short time is really outside of God’s design for sex. I’ve written about that several times–here and here, for instance.
So sometimes our beliefs that the Bible is male-centric can also be simply that the church and Christian culture that we’re part of misuses the Bible, which I think is happening here.
I totally understand not wanting to feel like a sexual object. And to be honest, it completely offends me and makes me really, really angry that any Christian would EVER say that this is what God says women are to be (which is essentially what your church is saying). It gets me “clear off the money changers’ tables” angry. It really does. And I’m sorry so many women hear this.
I know Nick didn’t mean to be dismissive. I think many men just honestly don’t understand how deep and difficult a problem this is for many women.
So let me just say again–keep wrestling and asking God for truth, because He can show you. And if something seems really wrong and dehumanizing to you–then challenge it. If it’s dehumanizing, it’s likely of man, and not of God.
Grace, the only thing I can tell you is… read the books Boundaries and Boundaries in Marriage both by Henry Cloud and John Townsend. Understanding Biblical Boundaries is vital in any relationship especially one as close as marriage. If I had got those books early in my marriage maybe we would have stood a chance of making it work.
I have often wondered, sadly, why the majority of wives selflessly love their husbands and are faithful to them, but the guys seem to think the standard is different for them. I think a truly faithful husband is a rarity. I’m not just thinking about the big-name leaders that have fallen, but also multiple close friends who have recently revealed to their wives that they’ve been living with other women. And these are large, homeschooling families. My husband has admitted to using porn a few times, but it’s just with surface remorse. And I definitely don’t feel like I have his heart. We’ve haven’t even been married for 4 years! He’s even 🐝
through pastor’s training during this time. I feel like I have to be more beautiful, witty, and amazing than any other woman–real and fake–to keep his attention, and I know I’m hopelessly doomed before I even start.
L, I have some experience with what you are going through, and believe it or not, something Halle Berry once said in an interview resonated with me. She was asked how her second husband, an admitted sex addict, could ever cheat on someone who so many other people regarded as one of the sexiest, most beautiful women in the world. She replied, “I can be sexy, and I can be beautiful, but the one thing that he wants is something I can NEVER be…someone else.”
That thwacked me between the eyes. It’s not about you, and it’s not about what kind of woman he looks at–it’s about HIM. It’s what makes me so mad about Christian advice to women whose men use porn…lose weight, take care of yourself, wear makeup, give more sex, give more sexual variety. It’s hogwash, and it holds Christian wives hostage. Throw it off, and deal with the problem that actually exists, which is his.
Anna–I just want to point out that not all Christian advice given to women says that! I certainly don’t. 🙂
No, you absolutely don’t, Sheila. Yours is some of the wisest advice out there.
As a man, I see my wife as a wonderful gift. I have Aspergers and I didn’t get married to her until I was nearly 30. I am a nerd and have been one all my life. What helped me be comfortable around my wife is she has Aspergers as well. Because of all of this, I take marriage very seriously. I don’t use porn at all. I try to follow the Pence rule the best I can. If any of you ladies have men on Facebook who are interested, I have a group for men who are all Christian, which is a requirement. They can be married, engaged, dating, or hoping to date and marry. It’s a group dedicated to helping us learn to love our wives as Christ loved the church. I would be glad to include any man who wants to be better.
I guess my question would be does God have purpose and plan for single women? Does he love them? Bc everything you spoke of only helps married women. Single women still have no place in the church, nor a voice, nor a purpose. After the fall – all purpose for single women is removed.
Oh, Stacy, He definitely does! In fact, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7 that if you’re single, it’s better not to marry because then you’re heart and energy are totally devoted to God. God uses single people in mighty ways. One of my heroes is Helen Roseveare; Google her sometime and read her story. God has great purpose and uses them to grow His kingdom.
Hi Sheila, I came across this post because I’ve been wrestling with the question of whether God values men more than women for a long time. There just seems to be so much evidence in the Bible that He does that it’s becoming harder and harder for me to believe that isn’t true. For example, in the OT women were not only considered unclean when they had their period, but when they gave birth as well. Not only that, women who gave birth to a baby girl were unclean for twice as long than if they’d given birth to a boy. As a mother of three girls, it was really hard for me to read that, but that is just one example.
Now, I’ve heard all the arguments that God values women the same as men based on Gen 1:26-27 and Gal 3:28, but no one seems to want to address 1 Corinthians 11:7. That verse seems to indicate pretty clearly that men are superior to women, and that is a knife to my heart every time I read it.
I just struggle to be convinced that God values me the same as my husband, given all the verses that seem to heavily favor men.
I would greatly value any insight you have on this.
Hi there! I’m glad you found my post, and I do hope you’ve found it helpful.
I won’t write a big exegesis on 1 Corinthians 11, since it’s been done better by people more knowledgeable than me. Here’s a good overview of the issues, though, that may help you. The main thing to remember here is that “head” does not mean authority in the original Greek; and that this passage is all about Paul finding a way for women to actually pray and prophesy in public, something which was generally not done in those times. So he’s actually trying to get women to use their gifts here, and I think seeing it through that lens can help.
I don’t understand how a God could love women and yet put us in the position that he did. The way I read it God gave Adam the job of protecting the garden in a perfect world and the only enemy was Satan… Adam fell down on the job. God throws the book at Eve and gives Adam a slap on the wrist. Women not only have the pain of childbirth which as we all know is FAR worse than sweating but that work God gave man… it just made more work it didn’t ensure that a MAN did it. Men have dumped that extra work on women throughout the centuries, no not every man ever -probably- but many men. In some cultures like certain Native American tribes and say the Greeks the men sat around doing nothing while the women did everything. Even today you walk into a church and the thermostat is set to the comfort level of men the women just have to freeze so men don’t have to sweat. “Put a sweater on,” they say but if I tried to give them my childbirth pain or even the accompanying pain of periods would you see a single man willing to take that on? Hardly. Any way you look at it God gave women a far harsher punishment than he did men and he also made it so that no woman ever could completely get away from her punishment. Even if there is some lucky woman who feels no pain during periods and still has those gross periods. Sweat hardly compares. Then we move past the fall of man and everywhere I look I see women being abused and not a single word from God. God gave us all free will and he doesn’t step in and fix stuff I get that I’m not upset that God didn’t do that. I’m upset that he never said that’s wrong or don’t do it or much of anything except husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. And that after 4 thousand years of men doing almost anything they wanted to do. A man rapes a woman what is the punishment? He gets to rape her for the rest of his life. Oh yeah, that’s a really bad punishment every rapist should have that punishment. Why I bet rape would cease to exist if that was the punishment today. There are so many examples throughout the Bible I could go on all day. As I’ve said before I don’t expect God to swoop in and fix every problem but I find it more than a little disturbing that the most definitive statement He ever made was “Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church”. And that is open to interpretation. A husband can just say “I love you and if the need ever arises I would die for you.” It’s hard to argue with that since love is expressed so differently based on your own personality how can one ever say that they are or are not loved? Submission on the other hand that’s considerably more measurable. Jacob was going to have his daughter-in-law burned to death until he found out he was the man that impregnated her. What she did was so bad that she should be burned to death but what he did apparently that was not that bad yet they did the same thing. God knew all this would happen He’s God yet he never said don’t take slaves and he never said woman have equal rights as men. God apparently felt so strongly that we should have free will that he stands by while children get raped and murdered. Yet he apparently sees nothing wrong with one man taking away the rights of another since he doesn’t even say don’t do it. How is that a loving God.
Esther, I really do feel what you’re saying. I really do. And all I can say is please, keep asking questions. There’s nothing wrong with questions.
Remember, too, that the reason that men rule over women and have abused women for centuries is not part of the curse of sin from God but instead the result of the fall. It’s sin. It wasn’t supposed to be this way. As Paul said, “In Christ there is no male nor female…” We are all equal. That is God’s intention. But because of sin women have been used and abused. That’s what Jesus came to fix–and that’s what will be ultimately fixed in heaven.
I’d point you to websites like The Junia Project which do such an amazing job of showing God’s heart for women in Scripture. It’s not preached on enough, and I think if we truly saw how God saw women in Scripture, we would feel such tremendous joy.
It’s 2:25am and I have been troubled by the question “does God love men more than women” all day. I’ve always suspected it to be the case and the fear was triggered again by a sermon I heard Sunday morning. I googled “does God like men more than women” and found this article and thread. I never knew other women had these same thoughts. THANK YOU for this discussion. So many comments have given me peace as I sit here, in the middle of the night, in tears. It’s bad enough when the world makes us feel inferior and disposable, but to think that our Creator feels the same way is just more than I can bare at this time in my life. Why do we have to DIG so deeply to find examples of God’s love for women when the bible is full of examples for men? I think part of the answer is this…men are retelling the story, not women. Yes, their writing is inspired by God – without a doubt! But remember, they are still men. They can’t tell us how poor Bathsheba felt after her husband was murdered and then she was taken to live in the murderer’s harem!!! How can they tell us that part of the story? They know nothing of how she felt and probably didn’t care. Her experience was not an important part of the story….to the men. BUT I can assure you that God cared deeply about her suffering and even though we don’t get to hear that part of the story, there is no doubt in my mind that He loved her and wept for her. We just don’t get to hear that part. God’s love is SO MUCH bigger and more powerful than we (and men) can ever wrap our heads around. It’s not limited to man’s description in scripture. I’ve never met you, my sisters in Christ, and I don’t know where you are in the world, but I love you and I thank you for the open and honest discussion.
My language is not english and I find it very hard to communicate. I cant find any Swedish People who speaks about this problem.
I actually cry everyday bcus of this. Iam less worth as woman. I prayed everyday for a man able of loving as strong as I love. I love my familj of all my heart. I wont settle down if my future husband wasnt as loving as me.
I prayed: “give me a good husband who can love me exactly as much as I love him. If this man dosnt exist, then give me a baby”.
I prayed everyday and my faith was strong. Then I found a man who flattered me, buyed me a golden cross necklace. He encouraged my faith in Jesus.
When i got pregnant be started to abuse me, and made me cry everyday. I was deeply suffering.
Today iam a single mother, and i love my daughter. I guess God answered my prayer. He gave me a baby. No man is able to love me as i love him, God told me.
I can not understand how God made the man in his own picture. If god is loving, why is man hating?
Every man in my whole country hate women. Almost everyone is cheating or watching porn.
I know iam kind of evil, but i really hope many cheating pornwatchers go to hell.
I think i will go to hell bcus I hate men. I havent met any good man except my own father.
I cant handle how worthless I am as a woman. It makes me deeply depressed.