I am tired of the “boys will be boys” message that I hear from so many pastors and pulpits, talking about lust as if it’s normal and women as if we are always going to be objects of temptation to men.
And so I’d like to go on a little rant today, because I think that this message is seriously harming women’s hearts and putting roadblocks up to healthy marriages.
But first, a caveat.
I wholeheartedly believe the studies that show that men are far more visually stimulated than women. I know that when men are aroused the visual center of the brain lights up, whereas for women it’s the relationship center.
I know we approach sex differently.
I know that many men feel a far more urgent physical need for sex than women do.
I know that lust is more of a battle for men than it is for women.
I completely and totally believe that. But I also believe that God calls us to more, and by concentrating on temptation as if it’s normal, rather than pointing to what God wants for us, we are hurting real intimacy.
Part of the problem, I think, is that the conservative arms of the Christian church spend far too much time concentrating on “womanhood” and “manhood” and dividing us up by gender and seem to forget that we’re people first.
The married duo Priscilla and Aquila were Paul’s “fellow workers” in the gospel; Paul didn’t just hang out with Aquila. He partnered with Priscilla, too, who was the primary teacher of the two. In Philippians 4:3 Paul mentions two women who had labored with him in the gospel. Paul didn’t segregate; he, a single man, worked with women! Just read Romans 16 to see how women and men intermingled to spread the gospel.
And there’s no Christian side hug in the Bible, either. Paul wrote in multiple places, “Greet all God’s people with a holy kiss.” (1 Thessalonians 5:26).
Pastors, are you listening? Do you know the damage that you are doing when you reduce male/female relationships to solely sexual ones, rather than redeemed, godly ones?
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Paul had perfectly platonic relationships with women, with whom he spread the kingdom of God.
That was his normal. It was expected that you could hang out with women and just value them as people with gifts without sexualizing them.
Yet what do we do? We spend so much time talking about how men and women can’t work together without there being temptation, or how men and women can’t be friends, because we see ourselves as primarily sexual beings, not primarily children of God.
Paul believed that if you saw each other only as sexual beings that this was a sign that you weren’t saved. It was the secular world that did that.
And yet now we’ve turned that on its head! It’s in the church where we don’t believe that men and women can be together as friends and “fellow laborers”, and it’s in the secular workplace where it’s assumed that of course men and women can work together with no issues.
The secular world sees women as people; the church too often talks about women as objects of temptation.
I have had so many women comment on this blog that they couldn’t marry anyone at their church because all the guys at their church were struggling with porn and always criticizing what these women wore in case they caused them to lust.
So these women looked elsewhere, to men who wanted to get to know them as people and to men who cared about their character. And they found that outside the church.
Pastors, are you listening? Do you know the damage that you are doing when you reduce male/female relationships to solely sexual ones, rather than redeemed, godly ones?
My son-in-law and my husband both came to Christ in their late teens, and did not grow up in anything resembling a typical evangelical church. They have never had trouble having female friends without “lusting” after them.
Outside of the church boys are not taught to see women as objects of temptation. They are taught to see women as people.
In fact, porn use tends to be higher in states that are more Christian. Perhaps that’s not a coincidence, but a correlation. Reduce women to sexual beings, and it becomes easier to get caught up in lust.
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I know that there is a crisis of women who don’t like sex and aren’t having very much sex in their marriage, leading to a huge struggle for many husbands.
I really do get this.
But have pastors ever thought that maybe one of the reasons that women have such issues with sex is because of the messages we hear about sexuality from the time that we are small children?
- “Women need to be modest and cover up, so that they don’t cause men to stumble.”
- “A man desires sex constantly, and if he doesn’t get sex every 72 hours, he’ll be tempted to look at porn or he’ll find the battle with lust so much worse.”
- “Men struggle with lust so much, and most pastors struggle with being with a pretty woman.”
- “It’s normal for men to want to look–that’s how God created men! God made them to be the initiators, so of course they will notice a woman’s body. It’s hard-wired.”
I have read, to my horror, that mega pastor Mark Driscoll once wrote that women were created to be “penis homes”. Pastor Joe Helmes once opened a Nascar race talking about his “smokin’ hot wife”, as if it was appropriate to sexualize her in front of all those men. The masculine vibe that so many churches are trying to take on in order to seem relevant has pastors now bragging about their sexual prowess from the pulpit.
Do male pastors have any idea how absolutely creepy and disgusting that sounds to the women in their pews?
When a woman brings that up, the pastor (or writer) often responds, “you’ll never understand because you’re a woman, but this is what men go through.”
That’s not good enough.
Find freedom from porn!
Your marriage, and your thought life, do not need to be held captive to pornography.
There is freedom.
Beat porn–together!
You’re right, I may never understand how hard the lust battle is for a guy, but do male pastors understand how very badly we women want to be cherished, and how very much we yearn for security? Do they understand the raw emotional devastation that a wife feels when she finds her husband looking at porn? Do they understand how difficult it is for a young woman to see sex as a positive thing when she has been sexually abused as a child, and then has grown up in a church which tells her that all men will lust after her and that she had better have sex with her husband or he’ll be tempted to cheat?
If men deserve understanding because of their battle with lust, then surely women deserve equal understanding for our battle with insecurity and our desperate need to be loved.
One woman wrote to me after being told that all Christian men will always struggle with lust, no matter what the wife does. She can make it easier, but he will always struggle. She said:
Women are constantly asked to have empathy for every man’s battles but little help is provided for our broken hearts. I would ask men to have empathy as well. Do you have any idea the self sacrifice it takes to be intimate when we feel like we will never be enough for you?
Here’s how another woman put it:
His temptation does feel like rejection. And if the temptation is apparently non-stop, that’s a lot of feeling rejected.
Is that really the message that pastors want women to hear? You will never be enough for your husband, but you need to try super hard anyways, because at least maybe you’ll make it a little bit easier for the poor guy?
Can’t we call people towards much more? Don’t we believe that Jesus should actually make a difference in our lives? That it IS possible to live totally and completely crazy about your wife and your wife alone?
If men deserve understanding because of their battle with lust, then surely women deserve equal understanding for our battle with insecurity and our desperate need to be loved.
So may I suggest a way through towards a healthy message?
I will continue to encourage women to initiate sex.
I have tried so hard on this blog to teach women to get over sexual lies they’ve believed and know what it is to experience spiritual intimacy when they make love. I will continue to encourage frequent, fun, and interesting sex, including learning to be more adventurous in bed, because being vulnerable and a little our of control is part of “hot and holy” sex! I will try to point women towards a fulfilling and intimate sex life, because God created us for something amazing, and we don’t want to miss out! We were made for intimacy.
But I will never, ever tell women that the primary reason you need to have sex with your husband is because if you don’t he may lust after other women. I will never, ever frame sex to be something that’s for him, and not something that is equally for both of them.
Now I am asking you, male pastors, can you do the same thing, and say “no more boys will be boys”?
Can you call men to love their wives? Can you tell them that, yes, you have temptations, but so does everybody. Jesus did not look at a woman and automatically undress her in His mind, and neither did Paul or the apostles. And so you need to stop doing that, too. No more excuses. No more “everybody struggles with this”.
1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
There is always a way out. So stop talking like lust is normal. “Be holy, as I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:16) No ifs, ands, or buts.
Yes, that’s a tall order. But that’s Jesus’ order, not mine.
And maybe, if men started acting like they respected women, then women would start seeing sex as something healthy again, too.
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Sheila Wray Gregoire has been married for 27 years and happily married for 22! She loves traveling around North America with her hubby in their RV, giving her signature "Girl Talk" about sex and marriage. And she's written 8 books. About sex and marriage. See a theme here? Plus she knits. Even in line at the grocery store.
Marriage isn't supposed to be blah!
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Amen sister!
Frankly, the church is dying in the areas where you are speaking to people to at. In very large part due to gender issues and people not understanding them. At no time in the last half millennium has there been less understanding about men & women, by men & women. By pastors, by government, by everybody. And by you.
There are very vast differences in genders. In design, biologically and in purpose both in life and in marriage. This very thought is being fought over in trenches of both life & blood and spiritual warfare that have a far higher body count and of which the consequences have been far more gruesome than any world war. The divorces, the souls lost to a teaching a feminized gospel that repels men & boys from the church (and eventually the women), the abortions, the confusion & misleading that leads to porn, homosexuality and even were men and women are now cutting up there bodies have pronouncing it good.
You took a lot of liberties with explaining how the apostles both interacted and worked with women that were not accurate. Jesus sent men out together, never with women. Women were always found with their husband, with their family or with other women. The couple you speak about was married, they worked together. Paul who describes himself as fairly abnormal in his sexual desire is exactly what he describes himself as- abnormal.
I wrote today not because I do not believe men need to treat christian sisters just like that, christian sisters in purity in heart and mind, of course that is needed and a biblical message. But because you try to teach a theology inside of that thought that is completely wrong- both in how the teaching of the church & in the purpose & design of men and women- that is both false and leads the the problems you are describing.
You want men to not lust after women? While no earthly solution is perfect, for we are all sinful people, the best and also the easiest formula for it is simple. Marry very young. Have family and church conditions (which we used to call society) that encourage and hold a wife accountable to honoring, respecting and following her husbands leadership in and out of the home & marriage bed. Have family and church conditions that encourage and hold a husband accountable for loving, cherishing and providing for his wife & family.
It’s not complicated. It worked, by and large, society wide to those even on the fringes who didn’t have their behind in a pew each Sunday as a “trickle down” effect from the church to society. But modern churches will not accept it, largely as I expect you won’t accept it- because of the one line about “having family and church conditions that encourage and hold a wife accountable to honoring, respecting and following her husbands leadership in and out of the home & marriage bed.” You were correct in that you do not understand men Sheila, but you do not understand how society, church, family function. By trying to do good you are undermining the exact things you want- men who will love, honor, protect and be pure for our women. For that is the exact thing that men will do that for- “our women”- women who Christ has put under our authority and charge to protect, love, honor and cherish. You simply are wasting your breath & worry until you are willing in & out of the church to get back to what the Bible teaches on Biblical headship for a husband and family. You are simply working against yourself in our own blog post as your means will never work to your end. It is not how men operate, because it is not how they were created.
Of course their will always be a Josh Duggar, just like there was always a David. But half of the story is not the sin, but the redemption from the sin. The healing that takes place, for we all are broken and sinful and yet like David who was “a man after God’s own heart” and so much that Christ’s lineage was promised to come from his family, redemption is ours through Jesus Christ if we will repent and go back to His Holy Word and try to honor it.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment!
Don’t have time to reply to the whole comment since we’re driving today, but how about this: every single one of the big name pastors who have fallen in the last few years comes from churches that preaches this stuff. Every single one that has hit the news. All of the child abuse scandals. All of the pastors falling. It is where we teach that men will always lust and that women need to understand that. It is where we assume that all relationships between the opposite sex will always be sexualized, rather than being redeemed “phileo” relationships, which are possible.
I agree about marrying young–I’ve written about that lots before! But the issue here is that we’re telling wives that men will ALWAYS lust, even when they’re married. And it’s Just. Not. True. It may be true for some; but it’s not true for all, and the Bible is very clear that it SHOULDN’T be true for all. We should be redeemed. So let’s call women to enjoy and embrace sex, and men to enjoy and embrace their wives, instead of making sex out to be something that’s made just for men to reduce temptation. That’s the wrong message. It hurts women, it hurts kids, and it makes boys think that there’s no alternative.
If your argument against what I am saying is look at all the leaders that have fallen, then I will ask, what is that half a dozen men? Not all proven guilty. But even if we assume they are- did not David, Noah, Abraham, Peter & Paul (and every other man in scripture except Christ) all have their drastic sins? Their moments of failure, where they let their God, their loved ones, their people and themselves down? And yet did not God use these men? Did He not build His church upon men such as these.
I am not saying anything much different than Toni below who you praised when she stated, “Weather we like it or not, Men are the leaders. When men, in their leadership role declare through their words or actions that responsibility is not necessary, it creates a trickle down effect that infects all of society. Today we have a huge number of people, within both genders, that no longer take responsibility for their decisions, and it all started within the church. Now women are taking more, and more leadership roles, and I’m afraid, respecting men less and less. Frankly, from a logical standpoint I understand. It’s hard to follow weak leaders.”
And I agree! Up to the point that men are only given the title of leader, but not the authority given with the responsibility to do the job. So they have turned away. You can fight and write until He comes back, but until you are willing to cede the authority that goes with the responsibility men will continue to turn away from the responsibility. No one takes on the responsibility without the authority- it’s not only unrewarding, it’s impossible to do without. And men have figured it out, cognitively or not, and walked away from what you are asking them to do and will continue to do so until you put them back in charge and uphold their authority in marriage and church, even when women do not like it.
By and large, when women are not help mates-not your description of that term, but the people whom you disagree with definition- by and large your use and worthiness to men becomes only sexual. Feminism, both secular and christian, has turned women into sex objects because it has taken away all your other worth to men. And without that worth- being our help mates in marriage ( marriage which is the bedrock and cornerstone of civilization)- men will continue to act like women are sex objects because that is what women have become.
I’m sorry, but I really don’t see what you’re saying. I’m arguing that women should be able to be friends with men, and that we should be considered persons, because that is what the Bible says. You’re saying that this makes women sexual objects?
How is a woman helping a man and working with him (as Priscilla did with Paul) making her into a sexual object?
Do you honestly think that it’s impossible for a man to be with a woman and not lust–because that is the point of the article.
And helpmeet, by the way, was never a derogatory term. The same word was used in a military sense about God. It’s an empowering word, where we were created to be able to help men, just as Priscilla did. I’m not sure what’s so controversial about that. But if you think that women being considered persons and working alongside men makes women into sexual objects, then may I suggest that that’s likely problematic for you in your relationships with women, even in the workplace?
Wow, home, your comments are just showing so much of the somewhat sick church culture that Sheila is speaking about.
First of all nowhere in the article does she say anything undermining God’s plan for gender roles. She is speaking out against men laying the responsibility for their own actions and sins on women. She is speaking out about lies being told in the church that men can’t overcome lust. And she is speaking out against a culture that objectifies women.
And from your comments I see that you are one of these immature men who in the name of the bible demand of women to act a certain way without taking responsibility for your own actions. You say women don’t respect and honor and submit to their husbands and that’s why the husbands don’t cherish and protect their wives. It is true that we as wives are called to do love, support and respect our husbands. And the husbands are called to love their wives even laying down their lives for her like Christ did for the church. But somehow you make your ability to do that dependent on the obedience of the wife. The truth is God called you to love, cherish and protect your wife no matter what. There is no condition added to only love her if she respects you. Yes, being respected and treated well by your wife will make it easier for you to cherish her, but you should obey your calling as a husband even if your wife disobeys. The same is true the other way around, the wife should do her part no matter what, and being loved and cherished sure helps a wife respect and honor her husband, yet it should not depend on it!
You even blame the women that men have no authority in church? That is ridiculous. According to Romans 13 all authority is instituted by God, so if you have no authority then maybe you should go talk to Him about it and not blame women. In the same passage it does state to submit to these godly authorities and the people who will not submit are held accountable for their disobedience against God! But it does not say that the God given authority depends on the submission. If you have been given authority by God, you have to live accordingly, you can’t wait for everyone else to follow you first. I as a mother have authority from God over my children, and I have it if they obey me or not. Only if I say I am passive in my role and feel like I have no authority there will be disaster for my kids down the line, yet God will still hold me accountable for why I didn’t use my authority to shape their lives in a godly manner. Men in the church can’t blame feminists for not having authority. It’s your own lack of spiritual maturity and disobedience towards God that has men outside of church leadership. Maybe it is because men abused their God given authority to control women for their own sinful desires. And God will hold men responsible for both – misusing authority to justify their own sin as well as passivity in living up to their calling as men of God. I am sure of it.
The same is true for women rejecting their God given call, living selfish and self centered life styles including disrespecting men. They will get their share, too.
From what I see is that before the feminist movement had their influence, men had the authority, yet most did not cherish and love their wives in a Christlike way anymore. They used the power of institutionalized authority to live out their selfish desires and I believe that is why God had it all turned over! Now unfortunately many men didn’t take responsibility for their sin and did not use this exposure of their evil ways to repent and mature. Rather they kept living sinfully and now blame the women for their sins like lust or laziness or not loving their wives. It’s about time that you start taking responsibility for your own sins, men, and start becoming mature in Christ. Because women are not going to take the blame anymore for your own weaknesses – And rightfully so! God called you to live a holy life and to overcome your own through the sacrifice of Jesus and to live in the fruit of the Holy Spirit (which is essentially to mature into a godly Character) and if you do that, you will also find that the authority that God has given you is supported by His power!
Also in your comment you reduced the worth of women to being help mates and if they refuse to be that then all that is left is being sex objects. That is so so sick to say. We are not first and foremost help mates. We are first of all people, created in the image of God. We are daughters of the most high God, first of all, and then we might be wives who are called to be helpers to our husbands! By reducing a women’s worth to being a help mate you have objectified her as much as saying she is just a sex slave, only difference would be that help meet includes some other useful jobs others then sex partner.
I am sorry, home, but overall your comment sounded like you are a self centered guy who wishes that women would believe that they are slaves made for their husbands need to be respected and control somebody weaker then him, a convenient way to live in sin and cover it up… I hope that this is not true.
Lydia, thank you!
Preach it!
Hooray for you, Sheila! You ARE 100% CORRECT & spot on in your article & in your comment to ” Home” in his/her disparaging comments to your article. Been there done that, experienced exactly what you said, & have the scars to prove it! These type churches are all too willing to blame the women & give men automatic passes whereby they can do no wrong & it’s the women the have to shape up! Ive witnessed this personally for years & am looking for a different church bc of it. It makes me sick to my stomach that pastors of these churches blame women for men’s lusting bc well, “that’s just how men are so get over it!” So they lower the bar of standards for men but hold it way over women’s heads as objects that need no tenderness or understanding! I thank God for Jesus bc I know Him,& I know that’s NOT how Jesus is. The Bible plainly says,” Husbands love your wives AS CHRIST LOVES THE CHURCH & GAVE HIMSELF FOR IT.” NOT holding men accountable for NOT controlling their flesh is unscriptural. Ive always said, these pastors want passes for their OWN lack of reigning in their flesh & help the men out too, but never put the greater burden on the men where it belongs as the ‘supposed’ leaders of the home & marriage. These pastors want it both ways: they preach men are to be the “leaders” of the family & marriage, the supposed “examples”. OK yes, agreed. But with all leadership, especially Biblical leadership, comes the greater responsibility, the greater accountability, the greayer SERVANT in order to BE the role model of love, mercy, grace, compassion, & understanding for the wife & children. But these pastors let the “leaders” off the hook by giving them a carte blanche can-ne’er-do-no-wrong pass for shirking that greater accountability & responsibility that is the very definition of leadership of an earthly father that is supposed to mirror our Heavenly Father in order to draw us to the Father above. It is UNCONDITIONAL LOVE & SELFLESSNESS that draws people to the Lord Jesus Christ, not inconsiderate selfish cave man rule by sheer force or dominion based on nothing but gender. Husbands DO have to answer to God for the state of their family as the leader of them. Thank you, Sheila. You’re the fresh air I haven’t been able to find anywhere else, but unfortunately, personally discovered for myself too. And by the way, this is NOT feminism: this IS Bible! Just to preempt that unfair accusation! Thx again!
Glad you found it encouraging, Betty!
@Home My husband and I both grew up in homes exactly like what you describe. Husbands who lead and wives who follow. In both cases, the families were unhealthy. I went into marriage thinking I was to place myself at the whim of my husband. Bad formula. My husband’s family preached the correct message about biblical sex, and “biblical manhood and womanhood” but the practice was actually very immoral. My mother-in-law finally had to divorce my father-in-law when she realized he would never stop making advances toward her daughter.
My parents’ marriage is unhealthy, though it is the kind you describe. My dad’s siblings have/had unhealthy relationships, though they grew up in the kind of home you describe, and two of the three tried to have marriages you describe. My in-laws’ marriage was obviously unhealthy. Father-in-law has now been married five times and is currently living with a woman he is not married to. He could never free himself from HIS patriarchal father. My father-in-law’s parents had a marriage like you describe- patriarchal. Also abusive. Two of his three sibling have been in unhealthy marriages. The one who didn’t left home at college age and made a clean break, resolving to keep her parents out of her marriage. My husband and I have had an unhealthy marriage for the majority of our 21 years together, though it was the kind you describe. It only began to become healthy, ironically, when he confessed to adultery, something so bad that I could clearly not submit to it. When I had the moral high ground I started making demands of him. I still make demands of him. It’s hard for me, but he actually likes it better when I tell him explicitly exactly what I want.
Patriarchy/complementarianism is not the solution. Because equality is not the problem. Sin is the problem. Patriarchy opens the door wide for men to abuse (though of course that is not prescribed) and it makes women helpless to fight it. Egalitarianism actually allows women the freedom to hold men accountable when they sin. Patriarchy doesn’t. Your prescriptions will not fix marriage, male/female relations, or society. Because sin is the problem.
Most of the people who look back on the “good old days” when men led and women followed are men. For women, they often weren’t so good.
Biblically, it is not very hard to build a good argument for gender equality. The Junia Project, CBE International, and for good, dispassionate analysis of Greek texts, New Life by Marg Mowczko. Sheila has some good posts here that deal directly or indirectly with it, too. I know you might shy away from reading people who disagree with you. I did for many years. I was wrong.
Please take me seriously. Your words come across harsh and hurtful. Remember that female submission has caused a lot of pain to women, and returning to across the board submission for women is a trigger for many.
[Editor’s Note: This comment has been deleted.
I don’t mind debate, but this comment was 1500 words long in a thread that was already really wordy, and did not actually address the main topic here–the fact that men are taught that lust is natural and unavoidable.
If you would like to comment further, please:
1. Keep your comment shorter and to a specific point, let’s say 500 words at the most;
2. Address the topic of this blog post please, which is specifically about lust.
3. If you’re going to lay the blame for problems at the feet of women who don’t believe in patriarchy, then at least be polite about it and show empathy for the many, many women who have commented here who have been very hurt by patriarchy. Please show some love to them, since you are entering their territory here. This blog post is for women who have been hurt and to show pastors how hurt these women are. If you choose to ignore that, and just defend the status quo, then your comment cements that hurt. So please, some empathy would be nice, too.
I am not going to defend Home. There is plenty to disagree with there. But the “good old days” had some benefits for women. In the good ol days we didnt have one out of three women having an abortion. We did not have 54% of children born out of wedlock, and we had larger families that often translated into more support for aging widows. I believe that Sheila is doing the best she can, but I must be honest, she is limited in her ability to truly understand the male experience. She did not grow up with lots of brothers and she raised two girls. Her view is (like it or not) going to lean feminine. I must confess to enjoying watching my wife (who grew up in an all girl household) struggle trying to wrap her head around raising a boy. She is starting to figure out that being a boy is not the wonderful patriarchy filled entitlement land that she thought it was. We dont live as long, we don’t go to college at the same rate, and we are not treated the same in the healthcare world. Having your childs teacher say “well I focus more on the girls” didnt make me even think twice. It baffled my wife because she has never lived it. Home mentioned society several times, only one commenter to him acknowledged this. The other female commenters looked inward towards family. He was looking outward towards larger societal problems. Men do that. We look out. Women tend to look in. There is beauty in that. It is how god made us. Lets embrace it and move on.
Chris I think you will find women have been having abortions for millennia. Doesn’t make it right, but it’s not just a new phenomenon since the 70’s. Many women died from botched abortions and many medical records didn’t attribute their deaths to it because of the shame etc. ‘The good old days’ as you put it saw women treated like cattle, bought and sold, that is until Jesus the great emancipator came on the scene! Hallelujah.
You are espousing everything I grew up hearing and it is the very reason I’m here on Sheila’s blog seeking (and finding) healing, and is the reason I struggle so hard in my own marriage.
I cringe every time I hear “my smoking-hot wife.” Ugh. Really? That’s her predominant quality? Her looks? Is she not smart? Funny? Loving?
Yep. And I always wonder what the pastor expects from that. If you say it, then you know that every guy (and every woman!) is going to look at his wife’s body to see if she’s “smokin’ hot” like he said. Do you really want people looking at your wife that way? It’s like you’re giving them permission. It’s super weird.
It’s CREEPY and it makes a woman feel like prey surrounded by a bunch of animals.
I have a much higher respect for men than to think of them as animals. Do some men act like animals? Yes, just like some women truly are selfish. But people are capable of so much more than that.
The way you have put it here, it does seem creepy. But I’ve heard the guys on Duck Dynasty say it about their wives, and it seriously sounded like a compliment! And it is obvious that those guys love their wives, and find them amazing in so many other ways, that maybe the context was different??
Oh I wish your blog had a like or love button!!
“I cringe every time I hear “my smoking-hot wife.””
This reminds of something I read a while back – men who care about women will call beautiful and men who don’t will call them ‘hot’. Not scientific, but it does give me pause when I hear these things…
I felt like doing a big dance number when I read this, but my toddler throws tantrums when I dance! I have no idea. Anyway, brilliant post calling out a major issue in conservative circles where women are reduced to redemptive sexual identities of “wife” and “mother.” I’ve considered writing about how men are basically taught that they’re helpless and at the mercy of whatever woman they come across instead of being empowered over their thoughts. That’s crazytown. Thanks for the great insights!
Absolutely! “We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.” (2 Corinthians 10:5)
I’m a mother of 4 boys and my husband and I are doing our best to teach our boys to control their thoughts and themselves. because it’s their responsibility to do so. And I would get upset at anyone who tries to teach them otherwise.
Amen!
WOW: A VERY WISE AND BIBLICAL WAY TO RAISE YOUR CHILDREN ! 🙂
You took the words out of my mouth!
My thoughts on this issue is the same for both genders.
1) We are all born sinful
2) Under the blood of Jesus we are no longer slaves to sin
3) One of the fruits of the spirit is self control, and that applies to both men and women.
We are ALL called to live a life of faith in Christ and that includes controlling our eyes, our thoughts, and our actions. That also includes concern for one another. So, yes, women should dress modestly. However her standards of modesty are between her and God. If she is in-modest, she is the one sinning. Men however must learn to control their thoughts, attitudes, and actions. They have to take responsibility for their actions regardless of how others (men or women) act. The world is not going to conform to Christ standards, so men need to act accordingly, and not blame women for their sins. They are responsible for their actions and thoughts.
One of the big problems I’ve been seeing in the Church is the absence of male leaders. One of the reason’s for that is they are not growing strong in the faith, since they are taught that the are not responsible for their actions. This is a dangerous mindset for anyone. In any other setting we would call it childish. I for one have difficulty following a leader that is childish. I think most women feel the same.
Women are told to be strong. To be self sacrificing. To take responsibility. Oh, and to follow the men who can’t do any of those things. “Say What’? That is not how Jesus lived. It is not how He taught his followers to live.
Weather we like it or not, Men are the leaders. When men, in their leadership role declare through their words or actions that responsibility is not necessary, it creates a trickle down effect that infects all of society. Today we have a huge number of people, within both genders, that no longer take responsibility for their decisions, and it all started within the church. Now women are taking more, and more leadership roles, and I’m afraid, respecting men less and less. Frankly, from a logical standpoint I understand. It’s hard to follow weak leaders.
So well said! Thank you. We are taught that self-control is a fruit of the spirit, yet we seem to forget that.
(I’m not saying, by the way, that if you’re a Christian you won’t struggle. Of course not! But isn’t that the point–if you’re a Christian, you SHOULD struggle against the sin and against the temptation! But often it’s presented as, “you’ll never get over this, so you need your wife to keep you holy.” That was never our role! And it does make women real resent their husbands and really resent sex, I think. It’s just a big mess until we get back to a biblical understanding of responsibility.)
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that part of the role of the wife (and the husband for that matter) was to keep the other holy.
1 Corinthians 7:5 (ESV)
5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
My understanding of this verse is that we ARE supposed to help each other remain faithful and not lust after others. It doesn’t appear to be gender specific though.
I am very open to correction on my understanding of this, if anyone has any other points of view, as I have only been a Christ follower for less than a year, so no doubt my interpretation of scripture is still developing, and I would appreciate any help!
Yes Eliza, I believe that is right. But if I fail, that is my sin, my fault, not my husbands. By the same perspective, if my husband fail’s that is his fault, not mine. We may have our own sins that we are guilty of, but that does not take away the other’s personal guilt.
It’s like Adam blaming Eve for his sin, when he also made a choice to sin. Eve was wrong to tempt and encourage him to go against God’s will, that was her sin, but Adam was still guilty of making the decision to disobey God, his decision was his responsibility.
I actually have a three-part series written about 1 Corinthians 7 right here. You need to read all three posts to see the whole train of thought! 🙂 So sorry if it’s long.
What I take from those verses is that we need to be giving to each other, because sex should be totally mutual. So let’s be giving. And I try to teach women that so much! But I honestly believe that to tell a woman that “you have to give him sex or else he will lust” is a really harmful message. It hurts the intimacy that sex was designed for. The thing about the Corinthians verses is that they’re mutual. He’s supposed to be giving in sex, too. The way the lust message is given, it really is focused only at the woman. And often we’re not just told that he’ll be tempted; we’re told that he’ll start noticing other women more and thinking of other women. And it’s very, very demoralizing. I think there are many more sex-positive and intimacy-positive messages that are much better, and so that’s what I tend to say. I have just seen too many women hurt by that message.
Like I said, the point of Corinthians is mutuality. When we turn it into an obligation to prevent lust, then I think we do miss the point.
Thank you so much for your replies! And thanks for providing further reading Sheila!
Toni, you almost got it right. Boys are not taught to take responsibilty for their actions anymore. Not because they are little spoiled princes as I am infering from your comment but be ause they are being taught that they are irrelevent. They are surplus to societies needs and so they really dont matter much. And largely its true. Western society does not need male skills and talents nearly as much as it use to. Women commenters will balk at this and will say “no one is teaching boys that they dont matter”. What grown women say, and what little boys see, are vastly different things. Being visual creatures we put more stock in what we see than in what you say. Sadly I employ some of these output failure men. I have a supervisor who calls them “the geldings”. Young men in their early 20s who have no sense of responsibility or drive to do anything…..anything. They do not have a drivers license…nor do they want one. They never mention girls at all. They never go out they do nothing. One i am pretty sure cant read and signs his name with an X. They all take no responsibilty for anything because they all think they have no worth. Oh and none of them have ever been on a date. And it does not seem like they care either. Boys are looking out at the world and not seeing a place in it for them so they just shut down. Thats why they don’t lead, some women have shown that they do not want to follow. Sheila, check out Girl Writes What on youtube. She is canadian too and can provide insight into this for you.
Actually, I’d agree with you to a large extent. I think the feminization of elementary schools especially and the emphasis on cooperative learning and the taking away of competition has really hurt boys, and studies certainly bear that out.
And the current economy has cut jobs mostly from males rather than females, and guys certainly do have it tough. There’s no doubt about that.
But I don’t think that gives guys license to give up or to lust after women, that’s all.
Wow, I feel like I so often say this to you, but really another powerful, right on post.
I never even thought about how this affected me. But, if a man checks me out, I feel dirty and shameful, like I did something wrong, was I not modestly dressed enough or was I putting out vibes, etc. Like it is my fault that they have a lust problem.
And I do try to dress modest, so this is not the case that I am just out there showing off all the assets. But I still think, oh, maybe I am not modest enough, is there something wrong with what I am wearing because someone else is looking at my body.
And even though I DO think it is appropriate for me to look in the mirror and think about whether I am modest or appropriately dressed, I think I almost WORRY about it, you know. Like second guess, Oh is this alright, etc.
Thank you for freeing me from that. Of course I will still try to honor God in everything including my dress and present myself as an ambassador of God to focus on Christ in me and not my sexuality, however, I will not be consumed with second guessing every curve to see if it clings too much and every tuck of my clothes and I will no longer let a man’s lust make me feel like I did wrong.
I have enough of my own sin to worry about without carrying other people’s sin.
Love your last sentence: “I have enough of my own sin to worry about without carrying other people’s sin.”. Yep!
Of course we want to respect ourselves and respect God and be good ambassadors. But that’s as far as it goes. What a man thinks is in his responsibility, not ours.
I absolutely love the last statement that you make.
I have enough of my own sin to worry about without carrying other people’s sin. I am going to actually posts this on my fridge as a reminder.
(looks desperately for the emojis. Can’t find them. Settles for a stupid smiley face one). 🙂
Thank you for this. I frankly feel as if my husband’s church essentially taught him he can’t look at an immodestly dressed woman and NOT lust; if he sees it, he must lust. They had pool parties at his house since his dad was the pastor, but you’d better believe the girls had to wear T-SHIRTS while swimming. A one piece wasn’t modest enough. We have been married for 10 years now and he still will not go to the beach with us because “it’s too exhausting” for him when it comes to fighting temptation. I was hoping this would improve now that we have daughters, and to some extent it has but now he just freaks out because “that will be our daughters some day and I know what other men are thinking!!” I try to look at it positively, that his desire genuinely is to honor me when he goes so far out of his way to not look, but sometimes it makes me so angry. I don’t think it has to be this hard. I don’t blame him as much as his dad and their church; he was trained to think this way about women’s bodies and a few conversations with me won’t talk him out of a lifetime of bad theology. Seriously, people. I CAN’T GO TO THE BEACH AS A FAMILY. This is not okay.
It’s been so incredibly frustrating as a breastfeeding mom too. I feel like a leper at church, and basically haven’t been able to do the majority of our outreach events because there isn’t always a separate place I can go to nurse. Why is it that when I went over to my NON-Christian friend’s house, her husband came home while I was nursing, he noticed, and nevertheless sat down to chat for a few minutes like it was nothing. If my husband walked in to see one of my friends nursing, he would be horrified and immediately leave the room. To be fair, my friend is a doula, so they are a very birth/breastfeeding positive couple. I guess I just feel like the church should have the HEALTHIEST view of women’s bodies and how God has designed them, but I find the opposite to be true. At least my hubby stood up for me when one of the church elders told me I should go to the bathroom to nurse: “No, that’s disgusting. It is called a NURSE-ry because that is where you go to NURSE.”
I wish EVERY pastor could read your comment, Kay. This is exactly what I was talking about!
It does sound your husband is trying to honor you, both in public and with your elders, which is good. But we definitely need to change the culture which I think encourages this temptation and mindset and cements it. And you’re right. It’s in the church that we should have the healthiest view of our bodies, not the least healthy, which too often is what happens.
To be fair, this is not true in all churches, and perhaps I should have said that more. I was trying to call out a particular culture of church. I hope that was clear. We go to a church where men and women support each other and are real partners, and I consider many men there friends. And it’s very healthy!
I certainly don’t blame the Church with a capital C, because the more I study Scripture and what it has to say about gender roles and sexuality, I *see* what an incredible view Christianity takes of women (especially Jesus!). But I do blame my husband’s (and now our) individual church and family. I don’t even blame my husband much… I truly do believe that that is his reality; he genuinely feels that looking essentially means automatically lusting so he goes very far not to look and I appreciate that very much! I am just heartbroken that he has been trained to see women in this way in the first place. What has changed over the centuries? The church used to be filled with beautiful paintings and sculptures of *very* naked people–men and women. I’m not saying we should start a nudest service or anything–ha!–But since when did our bodies stop being celebrated and start being shameful, tempting, dangerous? I, for one, feel much more objectified in my church than any where else, as if my very femininity is shameful.
Oh, Kay, that’s so sad (especially your last sentence!). And I so appreciate what you said about the Church with a capital C, because I really think it is only some churches, not The Church. (Like I said, my church is definitely not like this). And I think when you’re in a healthy church, it’s hard to imagine that this stuff really goes on. Believe it or not, I really had no clue about all of this before I started blogging. We were really always in quite healthy places! But then the ugly side showed up in the comments section here, and I started investigating it. And it is so, so widespread, and so, so sad. And we are left with things like your last sentence. What an indictment of so many churches!
On of the reasons we left our previous church was lack of respect for the mother and baby room by the senior leadership. Vurtually every sunday the worship team would go in there to pray befor the servace. Meaning that we couldn use it untill they were finshed. One sunday I really needed to feed my daughter who was 4 months old at the time about mid way through the oppening worship which could last 45 min, so I poped in to the Mother and baby room only to find that the seinor pastor was still in there. The whole experiance made me feel really uncomfortable and unwanted. We left a few months later and subsiquently the Seinor pastor for that church had to resigned due to lust issues.
The mother baby room had a sign on the door and was full of baby toys and change mats ect. with a lareg bright murial of Noas ark with rainbow and animals. I am just saying this incase any one accuses me of trying to disturb the pastor in a designated prep room.
Wow, that is really creepy. It’s likely a good thing you got out of there!
I just breast fed during service in the sanctuary.
Kay,
You might not like this question – but have you considered that your husband may *not* be able to look at a woman in a bikini on the beach without admiring her, but that may *not* be the fault of what his father or the church taught him? This is going to sound dangerously like the ‘boys will be boys’ justification that Sheila so eloquently put to the sword, but hear me out.
Men are visually stimulated, as Sheila pointed out. There is plenty of scientific evidence of that. To my mind, it’s what you do with that. I feel sad that your husband feels he can’t come with the family to the beach and angry at his father and church as well. Ironically, the other side to this debate is that men – even if the ‘boys will be boys’ mantra is preached, are taught to be ashamed of what is a very biological response. I’m not saying that with concerted effort that we can’t teach ourselves to suppress these natural thought processes – and ‘boys will be boys’ preaching will certainly lead men to believe that they can’t – but it would appear that your husband is excluding himself from situations where he won’t even be remotely tempted because of extreme shame he feels. So he sounds trapped – between biological responses – thoughts – that he feels he cannot control and what sounds like overwhelming shame about those thoughts.
Some men may be able to go through life without admiring the physical attributes of a woman. I envy them, to be honest. I feel far more like I’m fighting a moral battle in my head and heart on a regular basis. I know many women will not like to hear that. But somehow, this very religious sentiment that the very thought of sex is as bad as committing adultery, coupled with the sentiment that somehow sexual sin is far worse than other forms of sin (maybe that’s just churches that I grew up in?) causes many Christian men a great deal of torment.
I guess what I’m saying is that I completely agree that we should be held to a higher standard than ‘boys will be boys’ – but I think to find a healthy medium, we need to allow our men to accept that for many (most?) of us, our brains are wired in a particular way and that instead of hating themselves for it, they should learn ways to deal with it when temptation occurs.
For your husband – he seems to believe that there are only two possible options – either go to the beach and be ‘tempted’ or remain at home and not be. The existence of ‘temptation’ is not in itself sin. We need to encourage good men like your husband not be be ashamed of who he is and how he was made, but to learn how to deal with temptation when it occurs – how to ensure that a biological tendency, such as your brain telling you ‘she looks nice’ does not translate into lustful thoughts. I honestly don’t think I can teach myself to stop thinking ‘she looks nice’ but I believe I’ve got plenty of control about what I think about once that happens.
James, I think that’s a very reasoned and balanced and sound and godly thought. Thank you for that, and I totally agree!
I too am one of those rare breastfeeding Christian moms. I don’t care what people think. If I’m nursing, you can’t see anything anyway, and I turn away from people to latch him on/off. I get your struggle. Blessedly I live in a very nursing-positive state with pretty strict laws in favor of the mom.
Love this!!! 🙂
Hi,
There are no words sufficient to describe how on point and awesome this post is! I’m in total agreement. This view of men and and sexuality is crushing to the hearts and spirits of women.
Thank you for putting this out there❤️
Glad you liked it, Marisa!
Bravo!
One tweak — the secular world is not getting it right while the church is getting it wrong. My husband didn’t turn to God until his mid-30s, and he was raised in a super unChristian environment. He has told me that his one thought with dealing with women was getting more p***y. That was it. There were some women he was friends with without it being sexual, but, as a rule, women were basically just objects, something to chase and then move on to the next one. That is a really, really common pattern that I have seen (to varying degrees) with my unsaved friends and coworkers, to varying degrees.
That’s true. I think there are extremes in the secular world. But I have found that the GOOD guys in the secular world can often treat women better than the GOOD guys from some of these churches that really teach the idea that women are always sexualized. But your point is very well taken!
Oh, yeah, I have definitely seen some screwed up people *in* the church. But I think all of us who were raised in the church are so familiar with it, we can see its faults and shortcomings really clearly. I was stunned, as I got to know my husband, just how screwed up the secular world can be, too.
I think it’s because we’re all people, and people kinda suck. 🙂
I have so many thoughts on this subject, but a few stand out. First, I’ve never in my life heard a sermon about a man living his wife without the caveat that a woman is supposed to have sex even if he is mean, nasty, or you don’t feel well. I feel like they always always ALWAYS put out, bio master what your reason for saying no. I’ve heard plenty of sermons and other speeches abot for women about how important sex is without a caveat for men to skate love your wife.
Ive also noticed that the amount of marriage advice for women and marriage is so prevalent, but it’s really lacking for men. We have a bible study at my church for moms. We have 2sessions a year. Each session has 5books. One is always a marriage book. There is nothing like this ever at my church for men. They do have a men’s bible study but it meets really early in the morning and my husband can never go. I also don’t think they talk about living their wives our marriage in general. They mostly talk about business.
There seems to be this view among some people that men can never make decisions for themselves and and that women have to let them. Is exhausting and overwhelming being the moral compass for someone else. It’s not very often that you come across anything that’s written specifically for men to stand up and do the right thing. There’s always something written alongside it for women.
I would have to agree with sunny-dee above; until my mid 20s I was totally immersed in secular, non-Christian environments and I had lots of “platonic” guys friends. I was constantly frustrated by how these friendships always resulted with them hitting on me eventually or trying to ask me out. And some of these situations were with guys I had been great friends with, good boundaries and trusted them. Always felt very disappointing to me because I was careful not to send the wrong message to these guy friends. I know several non Christian guys who were honest with me back then and admitted that their goal in being friends with a girl especially if she’s “hot” is to hook up or hope for something more eventually. So I don’t think we should be praising secular culture as much as you have in this post for being so great at platonic guy girl friendships. How about “friends with benefits”?! This was rampant in the non-Christian circles I was in. The idea that a friendship can still be totally platonic even though you’re having sex.
I do agree with your comments on church and how women and men are talked about though. This is something the church is definitely lacking in, and men should absolutely be called to something higher than just expecting themselves to sin if they look at an immodestly dressed woman.
And just to clarify, I wasn’t friends with gross guys or anything. Even though I wasn’t following the Lord at that time I was still a “good girl” and has decent friends. They were the “good guys” in secular culture that you’re likely thinking of!
Yes, I think there are good guys and bad guys in both groups! We are all human I suppose. 🙁
I have found, though, that in some church cultures, it’s very hard to find a “good” guy who does not assume that modesty is solely the women’s issue or that lust is not automatic. My daughters have certainly found that. It’s not true in Christian culture as a whole, and certainly not at the church where they are now. But it has been true in other church cultures where they’ve been, and that’s highly problematic.
Oh, and “friends with benefits”–definitely a problem! Maybe I should have talked about the married men I know in both the Christian circles and non-Christian circles, rather than just “guys”. I know so many GREAT non-Christian guys who treat women well and who would never dream that it’s “normal” for guys to check out other women. But definitely no group is perfect! For sure.
I have to agree with your article Sheila. I know some of the commenters have mentioned that everything went downhill when we stopped “having church conditions that encourage and hold a wife accountable to honoring, respecting and following her husbands leadership in and out of the home & marriage bed.” I feel there is also a responsibility to ” hold a husband accountable for honoring, respecting, loving, cherishing and providing for his wife & family.”
Why so often do people stay focused on the first statement and not the second. They both need to be occurring for this to properly work.
Looking at these statements, my husband has a responsibility to leadership in our marriage. The article was focused on the comment of “Boys will Be Boys, and so many Churches using this as an excuse for male sexual behaviour. If they aren’t able to get around this statement, there really isn’t any leadership occurring. If men are unable to control their sexual urges and blame it on women being the issue, they are not showing self control in their own lives and as a result can NOT be showing effective leadership.
My husband just returned from a 7 month tour of duty with the military. 7 months is a long time, and many people said he would struggle so much with sexual temptation because he was far from home. Many thought, I had to expect that he would have issues with lust or pornography. Yes, he still had some urges, but it didn’t consume him. He would call me and we would talk on the phone. He consciously focused on the spiritual and emotional side of our marriage and not the physical. He survived. I expected nothing less of him, because of the relationship that we have. He also expected the same for me.
So often when we make these blanket kind of statements, we are making men into animals. They do have the choice about how they are going to deal with temptations. They are not animals and they do have self control. Believe me, certain body parts are not going to fall off if it doesn’t get used every 72 hours.
Now that he is back home, we have returned to our healthy sex lives. I think where the issue comes in, when we don’t view sex as a spiritual and emotional. When we reduce it to just a physical act, we are really missing the greatness that sex can be. Our Churches need to focus on all 3 parts of sexual intimacy.
We really need to get rid of the “Boys will be boys” mentality!!!
You know, your point about making men into animals is so spot on. I often wonder when I hear pastors and writers framing it as if all men will always lust–don’t the men take offence? I would certainly be upset if I heard that ALL women will ALWAYS sin in a certain way. So why isn’t this seen as an offensive statement when pastors say it? I just find the whole conversation so terribly, horribly ODD. And very sad.
Thanks for your comment!
And, especially, thank you for you and your husband’s service for our country. 🙂 We are all tremendously grateful.
Sheila,
This very question (why men don’t take offense to being depicted as animals) in and of itself illustrates yet another harmful effect of this. teaching.
Men don’t take offense because this teaching gives them an excuse. It gives them de facto permission to indulge lust.
First off, thank you for your service! I can only imagine how hard it is to be a military wife.
Secondly, i agree with you wholeheartedly.
Tammy, you may never see this but I so appreciate your wisdom and your wit! Ha! Your comment complimented Sheila’s post so beautifully, I saved both to reread. Many thanks to your husband and to you for the joint service you so sacrificially give to keep us safe.
I really loved this part:
I think where the issue comes in, when we don’t view sex as a spiritual and emotional. When we reduce it to just a physical act, we are really missing the greatness that sex can be. Our Churches need to focus on all 3 parts of sexual intimacy. Yes!
You and your husband are a great example of what is possible when these 3 are in alignment. Your story is inspiring and challenging!
You’re my hero, Sheila. Thanks for this post. And thanks for what you said in one of your comments, basically summing up your post – “But the issue here is that we’re telling wives that men will ALWAYS lust, even when they’re married. And it’s Just. Not. True. It may be true for some; but it’s not true for all, and the Bible is very clear that it SHOULDN’T be true for all. We should be redeemed. So let’s call women to enjoy and embrace sex, and men to enjoy and embrace their wives.”
Thank you, Saginaw!
Yes Yes Yes! And by the way, I used to be in Church regularly freshmen year of college and the “church” boys were every bit as vulgar and skirt chasing as secular boys. My husband and I have had 2 male friends as roommates (at the same time) who I spent a LOT of time alone with. Gasp! Nothing ever remotely happened! Double gasp! As for feminism being the reason men see women as sexual objects… WRONG WRONG WRONG! Feminism came about to give women the right to get away from abusive husbands, the right to own property, the right to equal pay, And the right to HAVE a job in the first place! As with any other movement, some took things too far.
Hi Angie! Thanks for the encouragement.
Yes, secular boys can be gross and church boys can be gross. Definitely true! And I’ve had good male friends of both types. It is possible.
Oh, and as for the modesty thing. Should we start wearing burkas? Cause that’s a Muslim thing. Which is where a lot of this kind of thinking is coming from, I think. Just lock us women in the house unless we have a male family member to escort us to the store! Right? Just kidding.
I was thinking the same thing… And the joke is it doesn’t work. Women in Muslim countries are still being raped – even though they are dictated to wear Burkas and then they’re even punished for being raped. Is that where we’re going? I hope not!
Thank you, I needed this. So tired of hearing/reading that I just need to be understanding of my husband’s porn addiction because he’s a visual creature. I know my pastor wouldn’t say that, but so many other Christian bloggers do. It leaves me feeling hopeless and stuck. Your article reminded me that even if it is a sin that a person is “wired” for, they need the same help to overcome it as anyone else does with their favorite sins.
Yes! It’s like with alcohol–some of us have a greater predisposition to becoming alcoholics, and that certain requires some empathy. But at the same time, there’s no other way through except for the alcoholic (or porn user) to decide to stop. Sure, it may be hard. But saying “I have the alcoholic gene” doesn’t mean that person doesn’t have to quit. They still do! And whatever our weaknesses, we should all be striving to be more like Jesus everyday. Yes, we will mess up, and your husband may fall sometimes, and there is always grace for that. But that doesn’t mean we can’t be moving in the right direction. And it certainly doesn’t mean that we should excuse behaviour or give person an “out” so they don’t have to deal with the reality of the sin. Just because they’re tempted more does not make the sin any less.
Amen!
Thank you for this.
I’d like to add another thought on the topic, as a wife who is in a marriage where I have the higher sex drive, rather than the husband. Teaching “boys will be boys” is totally heartbreaking for wives in marriages like mine. It is difficult, and being told that of course men lust all the time, yet mine doesn’t notice me in that way even if I walk round naked left me for years feeling completely inadequate as a wife.
As things go, my husband doesn’t struggle with lust for other women, because that’s not where he is. The fact that he struggles in the opposite direction isn’t my fault. We’ve dug into it, it’s not something I can fix and that doesn’t make me inadequate as a wife… and I’m finally learning that, but my word, it’s taken a lot of time, a lot of tears and a lot of prayer.
Oh, I’m so glad you’ve commented, because this is an aspect that is so key as well! The “boys will be boys” mentality really does make women whose husbands have low sex drives feel like there’s something wrong with them, because why WOULDN’T your husband want you? Thank you for sharing your story!
Honesty wonderful article! I cant say I really agree that the secular world teaches men to see women as people first. I think thats a huge issue that many feminists are trying to push-that women are are first and formost (please dont take that in the extreme form of feminism) but yeah I will say the secular world is at least making an effort in not sexualizing women where as the church is indeed okaying it as normal and even healthy
“the secular world is making an effort not to sexualise women”???? Seriously? Admittedly, I don’t actually have much experience of what the churches are teaching, but I do have a lot of experience with secular men, and I find it hard to believe that the church could be sexualising women MORE than the ‘world’ as I know it!
I really think it depends on the circles you’re in! I’d agree with Christina. In the workplaces and the universities where I’ve been, it’s definitely been the case that men and women were expected to be able to work together without any of that. We were expected to be able to respect each other as colleagues, and we did. I’ve had very good work experiences, and my husband, who works in basically an almost all-female workplace, has always found the same thing, too. Certainly not in the media, etc., but I think in many workplaces this would definitely be true.
Great points, Sheila. I do think that the evangelical church often objectifies women and presents them as “problems” rather than people, and the outcome of that is never good. I know that the world objectifies women in other ways, but I work in a large secular organization and I just don’t see the male-female-lust-temptation drama that some churches seem to think is lurking around every corner. Men and women work together, interact as co-workers and friends, and get the job done – it just isn’t a problem.
I’ve read the Driscoll comment before. It’s horrific, but in many ways tells the story of what’s going on in a lot of churches.
I know, Gaye! I’ve had great experiences in secular workplaces, too. It makes the contrast so stark–and so sad.
I’m not defending the comment AT ALL because it is disgusting, but didn’t he later apologize and repent for his words? Just want to be fair…
I think he did…but it looked a lot like he did because he got caught. And he still continues to teach about marriage in similar veins, though without as colourful language.
I wasn’t raised in that kind of church culture and I’m SO THANKFUL.
I have encountered it as an adult, though, and so has my husband. (He thinks it’s completely un-Biblical).
One thought— this is true for both genders. You can’t expect marriage to fix you. If you don’t have lust under good management, don’t think that getting married with access to “all the sex you want” will fix your lust problem.
This is true if you have other issues (eating disorder, spending problem, insecurity) also. We don’t need to be perfect to get married. But we can’t fool ourselves into thinking marriage is the balm that makes it all go away.
A potential finance deserves the truth. And you deserve to be loved for who you really are. If a young man has a problem with lust, he needs to be upfront with a potential wife. Explain that he’s postponing marriage until he can find freedom from it. Rather, far too many young men hide their issue and hope that lust will go away after marriage. Then, when it doesn’t, you have a hurting couple and a wife who feels betrayed.
This absolutely is true for a woman wanting to be married, also. Don’t hide your eating disorder, your abandonment issues, or whatever it is.
And if you’re already married and have been hiding your issues, embrace God’s faithfulness and stop hiding! Get help and encouragement and accountability.
And Mark Driscoll … He’s done so much damage. It’s heartbreaking to think of the people who followed his advice.
Referring to your “smoking hot wife” in public is just plain adolescent. Grow up. Nobody wants to hear your pillow talk.
Great comment, Lisa! Totally agree on all aspects.
Unfortunately some of us did not realize the depth of our issues/what all we had, beforehand. Has a way of outing, and sometimes surprising us.
Oh my Gosh! This was really great! Thank you for once again sharing your fire for justice and your heart for equality. I love that you reminded all of us that Jesus and Paul did not have “issues” with women.
How would you suggest we talk to our sons about this then? I have a 10 year old and I want to talk about sexuality well!
And how do we talk to our daughters about modesty?
I appreciate knowing some of what not to say but I need help knowing what to say!
Sure, Jessica! I’d tell your daughter to respect her body. That she wants, when other people look at her, for them to think, “this girl knows herself and likes herself and is confident.” If she tries to show too much flesh, then what it looks like is, “this girl is insecure and is trying to get people to like her by attracting them sexually”, and then she will attract those kind of people, rather than the kind who will care about her. And saying that boys tend to struggle more with visual temptation I think is fine, and so we want to honor everyone around us by dressing with respect. I think it’s okay to say they struggle; that’s a scientific fact. But you can throw in that if they lust, that’s their choice, and not your fault! But you can still be being nice to them!
And I’d stress with your boy that every girl is his sister in Christ (another commenter said that; I love it). Every girl he sees is either a girl who is lost and needs Jesus, or is a girl who has the Holy Spirit inside of her. So treat her accordingly. She is your sister. Show her God’s love. Tell him that he will be tempted and that’s normal. But when you’re tempted, you do what Jesus did. You quote Scripture. So you say, “whatever I do, I do it to the glory of God.” When I’m talking to this girl, I’m talking to her for the glory of God. I’m not just looking at her chest. And I “take every thought captive to Christ”, so if I get an image of what she might look like naked, I don’t dwell on that image. I discard it.
Does that help?
I tell my boys that a gentleman respects a woman’s privacy even when she doesn’t respect her own. My oldest is very good at averting his eyes of his own preference and accord. He hasn’t quite hit puberty yet, though. He loves country music videos, though, and we had a talk about them. He was confused because he either doesn’t watch them and just listens to the music, or he just sees girls dancing in shorts and just sees them as that, girls dancing in shorts. The whole sexual curiosity isn’t there, yet.
Probably part of it is because there isn’t much privacy here so up until he was 8 and decided to avert his eyes he saw me in various states of undress, mostly on accident. (I mean seriously, who’d have thought a 2 am naked run to the bathroom would have him up wanting to use the bathroom, too!) I never made a big deal out of basic family nudity…not that we sit around naked, but hey, in close quarters naked happens. I grew up greatly shamed about nudity. I walked in on my brother once in the tub and thought I committed a terrible sin seeing him naked.
Basic nudity isn’t a big deal. We should be able to walk past the underwear section of target and not have an issue. We should be able to go to an art show or watch a documentary on Michelangelo and not have a problem. Laciviousness and lewdness are problems. As is being too casual and uncaring. A man shouldn’t fool himself into thinking he can look all he wants and not fall into the sin of lust. Nor should he be so hyper-vigilant that he can’t function in normal society and everything ends up being a temptation.
To daughters and young women I use a statement I learned from a male pastor.
If you are dressing/acting to attract sexual attention, then the boys/men who have lust under control won’t go anywhere near you. You’ll get plenty of attention but you’ll have your heart broken over and over. The man who has his lust under control spotted who before you spotted him and he went the other way! The men who indulge their lust will look at you as an object, a toy, something to use for their temporary pleasure before throwing you away. Be the magnet for the rarer breed that is worth waiting for.
I like that, too.
Sheila, do you believe that women are emotionally and sexually more faithful and pure than men and less prone to adultery and adulterous impulses?
I don’t think that studies necessarily say that. I think studies likely show that women are more prone to emotional affairs, while men to physical affairs, but that the two mean different things to the different genders.
So do you consider the greater propensity for men to physically lust more worrisome and troublesome than the greater propensity for women to emotionally lust? And what if it’s a combination of both physical lust and emotional lust for either genders?
Bottom line:
Are men’s transgressions and temptations objectively worse than women’s transgressions and temptations both quantitatively and qualitatively?
Why are you asking? God will judge. Shelia has posts urging women to dump their imaginary boyfriend. There’s equal opportunity for growth.
Lisa, I’m not asking God — I’m asking Sheila. And why does it matter why I’m asking? — I’m asking because I’m curious and I want to know (my questions don’t need to be invalidated just because you don’t share my curiousity).
Whether there’s equal opportunities for growth for women on this blog does not address my question. I essentially asked:
Are men’s transgressions and temptations objectively worse than women’s transgressions and temptations both in scope and in practice?
If you care to answer, then go for it — I’m all ears.
Oh, no, definitely not, which is why I spend so much time on this blog talking to women about stopping emotional affairs and stopping reading erotica.
But here’s the difference: the way that the church frames men’s problems with lust actually does tremendous HARM to women’s sexuality. It causes so much shame. It causes so much guilt. It causes women to just clam up and not be able to truly enjoy our bodies. It is a toxic message.
So it’s not that one is worse than the other in terms of sin; but one is definitely worse than the other in terms of the effects that it has on the way the other gender sees themselves.
I would like to point out that if some really believe that guys will always lust and will not be able to overcome their temptations by self control and the help of the Holy Spirit then Jesus actually gave instruction what to do, and it was not to put the responsibility on the wife. Rather he said: “if your right eye causes you to sin (or stumble or lust), tear it out and throw it away.” (Matthew 5:29)
So there you go, guys! Don’t think you can by the redemptive power of Jesus overcome your temptations, rip out your eyes! Just sayin’
Yep! 🙂
A couple months ago 100 women participated in an “art project” protest where they stood completely nude and held mirrors over their faces to protest the misogyny and sexual objectification of women among conservative American men. Ironically, in articles and comment threads and among conservative men I know their responses to this protest were highly misogynistic and sexually objectifying while at the same time denying that they are that way. Everything from complaining about the stupidity of women in general, to how the older, less fit women were unfit to be seen, to singling out who they’d bang, who had the nicest chest, and who needs to shave their privates. It was sickening.
I sat down and thought of the conservative men I knew compared to the liberal men I knew and I find that the liberal men treat their wives more as equals and with greater respect. I am more comfortable around them and feel listened to in conversation. Of the conservative men, I can only think of a one or two who are very respectful men.
Thankfully, we started going to a church that actually has men in it (instead of predominantly old ladies and single moms) and I see on a regular basis men, young and old, who are strong, godly, respectful gentlemen. That is helping.
I agree with the woman quoted above that it is very challenging for a wife to be intimate with her husband knowing he is struggling. In my own marriage the merit I am most praised and sought for is sex. Beyond sex there isn’t much else. There are days I know he has succumbed to temptation and it takes an act of bravery to undress for him and be intimate.
I would love to not feel that dread when a pretty woman walks in the room. I would love to wear my comfy clothes and not be called a frump. I would love to know that he respects women enough not to click on click bait YouTube videos and explicit rock videos. I would love for him to realize that misogyny is real, and ingrained and to rise above it. I would love for him to care about and love the inner me rather than just what I do for him sexually and around the house.
I would love that for you, too, libl, and all I can say is please know that that is what God wants for you! Don’t take the way your husband sees women to be indicative of how God does. I’m sorry.
One thing I find helpful when dealing with lust is something that I picked up from Phil Robertson! Yes, this is my second Duck Dynasty referencing comment on this post!
I have the NKJV Duck Commander Faith and Family Bible ebook, and throughout the scripture there is commentary from Phil and Al Robertson. This particular one really stood out to me –
“Our old evil ways sometimes die a slow death. But here’s where having a Christlike love for your neighbour comes in. That kind of love removes lustful thoughts towards others. It really does. Christ’s love allows you to look at the opposite sex with new eyes. You love them because they are your siblings in Christ – not some object for your flesh to crave. Regarding the opposite sex outside of church fellowship, it helps to remember that without Christ, we’re all lost human beings. The woman who catches my eye, fine as she may be, is a lost soul and needs to find the love of God. She’s never going to find it through me if I can’t get my eyes off her posterior end.”
Imagine watching porn with the mindset that the people in the video are your sisters and brothers in need of salvation. Kind of takes the lust factor out of it doesn’t it?
Thinking about this while I’ve been typing this, I think the problem with the church focussing on the temptation is that it doesn’t teach what to do with that – like the parable of the empty house – you have to replace the lustful thoughts with something else (like brotherly and sisterly love) otherwise that ’empty space’ just leaves room for sin to enter in…
I LOVE that! Exactly! I think that’s the mindset that Paul always had, too. And when Jesus was with the Samaritan woman, that’s how He saw her. So good!
I love that, too. The woman in video or walking down the street is someone’s daughter. If another man saw your daughter in that medium, how would you want him to think and act?
Eliza, these are my thoughts exactly, and thank you for saving me from typing it all out. Church kids seem to be taught from the get-go that modest women are deserving of respect (but still just a penis-hole birthing machine in the end) and if you dress like a ‘slut’ you must be asking for ‘it.’
Men and women of the church need to be taught from the crib that a ‘fallen’ woman is someone who is 99% likely to be hurting and broken inside and is in need of your compassion and the shared message of the gospel and Christ’s love more than she is in need of your judgements, shunnings and creepy sexual advances.
I’ve personally not experienced this in the churches I’ve been a member at. I certainly haven’t heard a pastor ever share about this subject from the pulpit. It’s always amazing to me when I hear that these issues are prevalent to others. That’s very interesting to me. I hate that women feel that way in church.
What I see is that often, television teaches that a man and woman can’t just be friends, or co-workers without it turning to a romance. Even if one or both of the characters are dating other people, it seems that they still end up in bed with one another.
I haven’t experienced this in my own church, either, but it is so out there, and I have seen it in some of the wider Christian circles I’m part of (and read so many blogs that talk from this perspective!). I almost wish I had stayed in my bubble…
I think there are perhaps a couple of problems with this post, though I’m not sure I fully understand what Sheila is saying.
I think this post suggests the idea that a truly holy man would not struggle with sexual temptation. I don’t believe that is true. Indeed, the purest man ever, the One who never sinned, still had to do battle against temptation. Being tempted is not a sin. I’m not even sure our ability to be tempted is due to our sinful nature as opposed to being due to the simple fact that we have God given desires (for food, pleasure, intimacy…). And, while the Bible speaks to our ability to overcome temptation, it doesn’t make any promises about not being tempted.
I think this post also suggests that if men viewed women as they ought to, as their sisters in the Lord, then they wouldn’t experience a sexual attraction to them and wouldn’t feel temptation. There are two problems here. First, unbelieving women aren’t my sisters in the Lord so I can’t properly view them that way. Second, my wife is my sister in the Lord. Fortunately, seeing her that way doesn’t lessen my desire to enjoy sexual intimacy with her. So, I don’t think a “proper way” of thinking or seeing women is a means to avoiding being tempted.
I will say that I think we can grow in our ability to withstand temptation – to more quickly overcome it and with less effort, to feel temptations less strongly. But I don’t think we can entirely eliminate them. And, I think how strongly we feel temptation will often depend a lot on our environment. A starving man will be most tempted to steal (in reality or in his mind – coveting) food when he sees his most favorite food on display. A man will be most tempted to sexual immorality (even if only lusting) when his wife hasn’t met his desire for sex and he sees a woman looking sexually attractive. Temptation will always be most strongly felt when it coincides with a desire and a suggestion of a way that that desire could be fulfilled. So it is that women do men a favor when they dress modestly and when wives regularly make love to their husbands. It isn’t that we’re doomed to sin if you don’t, but it is a simple fact that when you do, it just makes our lives so much more pleasant.
I know that this was a while ago but I felt the need to address it anyway.
While I completely agree with the fact that temptation in itself is not a sin. I think that it is importent to note that your example of a starving man being more likely to steal when presented with his favourite food being equated with a man seeing an attractive women is an unfortunate example of objectification within the church. A women is more than her sex appeal and should be seen as such, she is not the equivalent of food for the hungry because she was created for so much more, and therefore should be viewed as a whole and complex person created in the image of God. Food was made to eat, that is its purpose, whereas women were not made purly to fulfill males sexual desires.
Sheila did not prescribe a way to just get over/conquer the temptation. She’s talking about how we overemphasize men’s lust so that they either excuse it or laser focus on it (as noted in the comments) so its consumes them. I agree that wives can make it easier. I see where you are coming from…
However, “I think this post also suggests that if men viewed women as they ought to, as their sisters in the Lord, then they wouldn’t experience a sexual attraction to them and wouldn’t feel temptation.” And your following comments on this….
No, and as you said, you don’t fully understand this post. Sheila was asking men to view women as PEOPLE. Not a “sister in the Lord” must not sin situation but like CHILL OUT and let women be people too. Appreciated and valued for their many contributions beyond eye candy.
You’re right ab not doomed to sin – that’s what Sheila was getting at! Though not in the way you meant it!
I was raised in a church culture much like the one you write about here. My “godly” father was sexually attracted to his 6 daughters, and could not restrain himself with all of them.
My husband was raised far differently than I. He never heard such nonsense preached to him from the pulpit, and, he does not struggle with lust. At all. Nine years of marriage, 6 pregnancies, and he still has eyes only for me. Which blew my mind at first,because it challenged everything I learned about men in church! While I’d like to think it’s because I’m such a great wife (lols!), I know the truth–a propensity for lust has more to do with the state of one’s heart than it has to do with libido. To honor women as Christ honors them requires that men refuse to objectify women as the world does. Simple as that.
I am so sorry for what you went through. I am so happy for you to have the husband you do! And I LOVE your bold wise statement ab lust and honor.
I absolutely love this post!I went to a Christian high school and while I really enjoyed my time there, a lot of the men and teenage boys were just weird about things like driving five minutes alone with a woman to pick up food or something similar . . .Of course certain situations can require stricter boundaries, but that awkwardness between the sexes should not have to be our normal.
Sheila, I don’t often comment on blogs but this post had tears streaming down my face. Finally. Someone says it sensibly!!! I felt like this was written just for me. The ‘poor guy’ bit really resonated for a start. As did the temptation feeling like constantly being rejected. My husband says ‘being tempted isn’t a sin’. Ouch.
We are in the process of leaving a Church where ‘all guys lust’ is the firm belief. We’re moving on for numerous reasons but that mentality has caused the biggest wedge in our marriage. We saw a counsellor who made all the same comments, supposedly a Christian counsellor but I was made to feel guilty for thinking my husband shouldn’t be lusting. “At least he comes home to you” the counsellor says. Then he told me I’m not my husband’s mother and need to respect “all men lust and are visual”. We stopped going but sexually, I have never recovered from all the ‘advice’. I don’t feel like ‘the one’.
I understand that you and Shaunti are friends but I feel that her books back up the very attitude you are speaking against in this post.
Kevin up above needs to not comment again I hope!
But thanks from the bottom of my heart. This issue and terrible teaching has actually destroyed our marriage. I so appreciate everything you’ve said!!!
I’m sorry for your tears, but I don’t know why you would say I need to not comment again. And, if you believe that to be tempted is to sin, then I have to wonder what you believe about Jesus, “who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin”.
To be clear, perhaps I should point out that lust is not a temptation to sexual immorality. It is itself sexual immorality (Matt 5:27). To lust is not to be dealing with temptation – you have already given in to the temptation and sinned. Yes, it may represent a temptation to even greater sin (e.g. committing adultery in the flesh rather than only in your mind), but lust is not merely temptation. So, please don’t think I meant to say that lust is just a temptation and therefore not a sin. What I am saying is that being tempted to lust is not a sin. (On reading your comment again, I suspect you were viewing lust as just a temptation, and that might be why you reacted as you did.)
This blog post touched on sin and temptation in a certain context. I think we need to bring a biblical understanding of sin and temptation to that discussion, which is why I commented – I sensed there was possibly a need for some greater clarity.
There are some other biblical understandings that should be brought to bear in this discussion also. For example, the Bible doesn’t give us room to say, “I’m permitted to do X and if that is a problem for someone else, too bad for them – that’s their problem.” On this, consider 1 Corinthians 8-10; the woe Jesus pronounces on those who bring temptation to others (Matt 18:6,7); and Galatians 6:1-2 (we ought not to help others bear their burdens – not add to them).
Also, I want to point out that temptation is, for godly people, unpleasant, annoying, and frustrating. It requires an internal struggle of the kind Paul wrote about. Who wants to feel the force of temptation pulling them toward sin? Who wants to be forced to fight against their desires? No one. But, temptations are sure to come. Personally, it is not that I am constantly lusting that is a problem for me, but that I am constantly being tempted to lust. And, frankly, women baring their butts in yoga pants everywhere you go, combined with infrequent sex, makes the temptation to lust frequent and harder to resist. I would like to think that I do pretty well resisting, though.
Finally, we love others well when we do not bring temptation to them. And when we are tempted, let us fix our eyes on Christ and find the way out. But please don’t look down on the men in your life because they are tempted in certain ways. We all have certain temptations that play to our deepest desires, certain siren songs that strike just the right note such that we find it very hard not to sing along.
I remember when I found porn on my husband’s phone, three months after giving birth, I was humiliated and devastated. The next day, I called my dad, a man I really look up to, who then asked me if I was giving my husband sex regularly! I was so hurt. Like I was being blamed for my husband’s lust. (And by the way, we were being intimate on a regular basis!) I have found that the main reason my husband struggles with lust is when he is not secure in his identity. (We struggled with finances for a long time, which made him feel insufficient as a provider. And he didn’t know how to tell me that he felt like a failure, because who wants to tell their wife their deepest insecurity?) We have thankfully moved forward, and my husband has rebuilt a lot of trust, but I feel I am always on edge and in fear because of the message that no matter what we women do, men will always struggle with lust. I know my dad was trying to help, but when he asked me the question he did, it really hurt, and still hurts to this day. Thank you for taking the time to address such a sensitive subject for many women! 🙂
I Googled for the pastor’s prayer about his Smoking Hot Wife. Turns out that the majority of the articles I found listed his name as Nelms. Here are two. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/07/25/pastor-delivers-epic-controversial-nascar-prayer-thanks-god-for-cars-and-smoking-hot-wife/
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/07/26/update-smokin-hot-wife-pastor-defends-his-unconventional-nascar-prayer/
It was interesting to read about his thoughts about his prayer and his wife and daughter’s response.
Another very interesting thing is that in the picture, it is obvious that his wife is a plus size woman. It would seem to me to be a high compliment that he is calling his wife Smoking Hot to a secular crowd when she does not fit the mold of what probably 90% of people both Christian and secular would have in their mind when they picture Smoking Hot.
Thanks for picking up the mistaken name! I was relying on another news report which was obviously wrong.
I understand your point about him trying to compliment her; I really do. But what are we saying? That it’s okay to say that your wife is smokin’ hot if she’s plus sized, but not if she’s a size 6? Isn’t that still judging a woman by her body?
I think the problem is that no matter what her size is, we still think that it’s a compliment to be sexualized in public. And I guess I just feel that it’s this culture that’s contributing to the whole problem. If we want men to start seeing women as their sisters in Christ, then let’s stop encouraging them to see them in a sexual way–no matter what the intention behind it is. Whether she’s plus sized or not, every man there (and every woman), after hearing that, is going to look at her body and think of it in a sexual way. Now, I’m glad the pastor wants to confront the stereotype that says that only a certain type of woman is “smokin’ hot”, but I still don’t think that talking about your wife sexually in front of a crowd is a really appropriate way of doing that. Do you know what I mean?
In Song of Solomon the man talks very openly about the woman’s body, and it appears to be in a public way since there are lots of references to friends ( although there is a lot of controversy among scholars about how to interpret Song of Solomon).
Just one example as this is from Chapture 4:5″ Your breasts are like two fawns,like twin fawns of a gazelle that browse among the lilies.” That seems to be a pretty sexually explicit reference that has at least been made public through the written medium.
I guess it is just hard for me to grasp how an apparently small town preacher says a simple prayer, one of I am guessing many many prayers each year at NASCAR races, and the Christian internet seems to melt down over it.
It might have been just sort of a little bit of an off beat prayer deep from the man’s heart or it could have been a very calculated publicity stunt from a guy who does not love his wife at all. Little hard to tell for sure at this moment, but I lean more towards the first.
I got time to go back and read I think all of the comments up to here. I do appreciate hearing how many different women think about all of this including yourself, and I appreciate your clarifications in your various comments.
So I went back and read your prior series on 1 Cor 7, I did not read the comments. I also read your newer post about moving on from obligation sex.
I thought that you did a good job wrestling through some of the two sides of the coin on this scripture.
However, unless I missed it, I did not see you really digging into I Cor 7:2 which reads ” But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.
In the note above you wrote “But I will never, ever tell women that the primary reason you need to have sex with your husband is because if you don’t he may lust after other women.”
Maybe I am misunderstanding Paul or maybe I am misunderstanding what you wrote, but it seems to me like he is basically saying that one main reason to have sex is because there is so much immorality around. In my mind, immorality would include lust.
Any light you can shed on your thoughts and his thoughts would be appreciated.
A part of it might include defining what “lust” is and is not.
For example, I grew up with the definition that lust = sexual attraction = attraction = noticing a female = adultery (per Matthew 5:28). Obviously fantasizing about a woman and watching porn are included, but that definition covers a lot of other ground.
If I had an erotic dream, that was adultery, no different than if I had actually slept around.
If I went to the pool and noticed a girl in a bikini, that was adultery.
If my eye was drawn to a short skirt or a plunging neckline, that was adultery.
The gold standard presented to me was “if a naked supermodel comes through the door and your first thought is anything but concern for her soul, you have sinned”.
And there is the little gem from Job 31:1 “I have made a covenant with my eyes not to even look at a maiden”. If Job could do it, why couldn’t I?
I never asked God for my sex drive. Alcoholics pray to God and He delivers them from their sin. Christian media is full of stories of redemption, of divine grace, of lives renewed. My constant prayer from the onset of puberty was for God to take the drive away. He didn’t. I still felt attraction to girls, which of course was lust which was adultery. My teenage years had an enormous anvil of guilt, even though I was a virgin I was an adulterer on a daily basis.
My logical conclusions were 1) God doesn’t answer prayer. 2) God doesn’t love me. I prayed for God to kill me if He wouldn’t take away my drive. I very seriously considered blinding myself, castrating myself, and suicide. I couldn’t follow through with suicide because of 2) – if God doesn’t love me, I don’t want to face Him. It didn’t follow through with the others because of my own cowardice. Since I was still attracted to girls/hence lusting/ hence committing adultery daily, I was assured that my life was not renewed, I was not delivered, divine grace did not apply to me. In short, I assumed I was damned because I could not erase my sex drive. I still went to church faithfully. I was very good at averting my eyes and thoughts in daily life, but still complete hypocritical scum.
A small change came when my pastor told me “God the Son will not take away what God the Father has given.” The other bits that made a change is realizing that having the sexual thought is not automatically lust/adultery, indulging in it is. If I look at woman (and dress and modesty are of course factors), there is the automatic popup on the screen of my mind “Undress her?” and it is that temptation that must be fought on a daily basis. Sometimes the popups are automatic. I have been with modestly dressed. Christian sisters about whom I have never had any fantasy or sexual thought – and suddenly my brain has pasted a picture of them naked on the screen of my mind for a second – and the horrifying temptation then becomes “watch that again?”
I can have professional relationships. I can have sisters in Christ. But that doesn’t mean that I am not constantly clicking the “Close” buttons on these mental popups. Keeping my thoughts clear, enduring the barrage from media, from culture, and from other people while honoring Christ is grace-filled work, but draining exhausting work nonetheless.
Kevin’s post above is very good. It is not that all men lust, it is that the temptation to lust is almost always there, a constant danger that requires constant active vigilance.
Kay posted about not being able to go to the beach with her husband; I can relate to her husband. There were times this past summer that I did not want to go to the pool because the pool would be crowded, because having to watch my children (like a good father should) means my eyes are open and the battle for my thoughts was going to be intense. Mentally, it is not “relaxing swim in the pool”, it is “do a good job mowing the lawn in scorching heat while being shot at and attacked by a pack of wild dogs.”
I am responsible before God for how I fight. He has promised no temptation is too great. Win or lose, pass or fail, whether my wife has been a help or hindrance, regardless of what commercial was on TV, regardless of what the person next to me in church was wearing, I am responsible for my thoughts and actions. There is victory in Christ, but not freedom from my sex drive. The only actual freedom I have found – of having an actual brief break from the battle – has never come through fasting, prayer, Bible study, or Christian discipline – but only from sex with my wife. For the day (maybe two following) I have a glorious freedom, a wonderful lightness – women are just women and I don’t have to fight myself.
That’s a very insightful and helpful comment. Thank you for sharing something so personal.
And I do understand that this is a huge battle for some men (I’d dispute that it’s all men; I’ve talked to so many men with very high sex drives for their wives who honestly are not tempted at the beach).
But I guess what I’d say is this: We are told to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. We are to take every thought captive (as you clearly try to do). And at some point shouldn’t that affect our temptation and the way that we see each other?
For example, when I was quitting Diet Pepsi the temptation was intense. It was awful. Every time anyone had a pop around me and I heard that “fizz” all I could think of was how much I wanted one. The sound of a can top popping was exhilirating.
But I stuck it out and I didn’t drink it at all for two years. And then I let myself have one on my birthday, and I didn’t even like it anymore. The pop fizz sound does nothing for me now.
I understand that men have sex drives and that these sex drives can’t be taken away and shouldn’t be taken away. But Jesus was able to have a perfectly platonic and loving conversation with a Samaritan woman, all by Himself, because He saw her as a person first. I don’t think that a guy should have to deprive his family of a day at the beach because he is constantly tempted. I think then that perhaps his mind has yet to be fully renewed.
I think we grow up teaching boys that “women are dangerous” and “lust is a battle you won’t win.” I just think both of those messages are wrong, and when we teach them to our boys, we let lust become a spiritual stronghold where it wouldn’t otherwise (I’m still amazed at the fact that the Christian men I talk to who became Christians in early adulthood do not struggle with lust nearly as much as those who have been Christians their whole lives. I would love to do a scientific study on that because it’s a trend I’ve seen over and over again).
I really applaud you for fighting so hard against lust. And I’d totally agree that there is a spectrum that goes: noticing someone is attractive–being tempted to lust–lusting, and the first two are not sin.
But nevertheless, we are called to be transformed and sanctified, and in that sanctification process, I do think that we should start to win some of these battles against temptation. I just want church leadership to start calling men to that, and to start talking more about “victory in Christ” and freedom, rather than talking so much about this battle with lust that can’t be won.
Oh, and as for your point that your wife is a huge ally in this: I’d actually agree with that, too. I think that we should be having frequent sex, and that there are all kinds of benefits from that. I just don’t think that pastors understand that when they frame sex as an obligation that has such tremendously detrimental effects on a woman’s sexuality, and also causes tremendous shame. So I’m not saying that your wife ISN’T helping you; I’m just saying that if you want women to have healthy sexuality, you really need to give her a different message. God did make sex to be wonderful for her, too, and it does have so many amazing benefits for everyone, so let’s have as much sex as possible! That’s just a much healthier message for women to hear.
Just as women will likely never fully understand how much men are tempted, I don’t think men will fully understand how hurtful the “you need to have sex or your husband will be tempted” message is to us. But trust me, it’s EXTREMELY hurtful. So that’s why I’m suggesting this deal: let’s have women teaching other women how wonderful sex is and to keep having amazing sex, and let’s have men calling other men to victory in Christ. If we do both of those things, I think we’ll be very healthy. But if we keep giving women this message that our bodies are shameful and our husband’s commitment is razor thin and any man who looks at us is undressing us, even if he says he’s not, it’s really, really very harmful, especially with how many women are also dealing with the aftermath of sexual assault.
YESSSSSS! You really went deep on your post in this comment. I LOVE this!!
Nire, Sheila has given an excellent reply. But seriously. .you say the only time you can see ‘women as just women’ is just after your wife has had sex with you??!! You don’t get that that’s offensive?! What if something happened that meant your wife was unable to be intimate with you? What would you do then?? Because this is about you…not your wife. I would be utterly horrified & feel violated if an unknown or known man pictured me naked. It feels like sexual abuse, harassment.
From what you have said in your comment, it sounds like you have a long way to go to teach yourself that women are not sexual objects.
Another way of phrasing it would be “Lust is the temptation to view a human, created in the image of God, with a body and soul, as an object for one’s own amusement.”
That is the temptation, that is the battle, that is the daily struggle. It is the work of Christ to believe “That is someone’s daughter, that is someone’s mother, that is someone’s friend, this is a person for which Christ died (and not a collection of parts)” and to make sure my actions, external and internal, line up with that thought. Intimacy gives me a brief respite from this fight, but a lack of intimacy does not guarantee or excuse or assume failure in this regard. There is a huge error in making the jump from saying “men struggle daily” to “men constantly picture women naked” because that assumes giving in to sin.
My two best friends in college were female and it was platonic (at least in part) because I made sure to control my thoughts and I was careful with how I treated them. The temptation to do otherwise was always there, but not acted on (physically or mentally).
By the grace of God, I have never catcalled or wolf-whistled, gone somewhere (pool, mall, etc.) for the express purpose of watching women, worn sunglassses so I could look without being seen, been to a strip club, traded porn, used derogatory slang for women, groped a woman, followed a woman to look at her, spent the meal ogling the waitress instead of eating, been with/kissed anyone but my wife, etc.
My male coworkers at one job (100% male) assumed I was gay because I didn’t join them in the above activities. My female coworkers at my next job (95% female) assumed I was assexual because of the way I treated them. They were able to make these (false) assumptions because God had given me the grace to have my thoughts and actions under control – but these external (and internal) victories of fighting my drive don’t mean that the battle is not constantly ongoing.
As a side note to my post (and to answer Jenny’s question about “what would I do if my wife couldn’t be intimate with me anymore”), all of this workplace behavior / not doing things happened before I married (and hence not being intimate at all). My wife may make me more vulnerable, but the outcome is not dependent on her. As I said in my first post, “I am responsible before God for how I fight. He has promised no temptation is too great.”
This culture starts really young as well. My eldest daughter is 8 and last year at school she was told by some other girls that she had to wear shorts under her skirts because the boys might see her underwear at play time. Her school has a uniform so I checked the uniform policy and nothing was mentioned about shorts other than references to the PE kit. Grey knee length skirt or trousers, white polo shirt or blouse and the school cardigan, black shoes and white, grey or black socks/tights, in summer blue and white gingham dresses and for PE shorts or sweat pants, the school t-shirt and black trainers. When I queried this with the teachers I was given the boys will be boys excuse and the asked if they should ban the girls from doing cartwheels instead. Personally I think that they should take the opportunity to talk to both the boys and the girls about how it’s not alright for the boys to openly stare at the girls or make them feel uncomfortable about their clothing and how it’s not ok for the girls to flash their knickers at the boys with the intent to get their attention.
Some fabulous stuff here, Sheila. I think one of our problems is that we have a single message for people in our church about sexuality, rather than understanding that singleness and marriage do call for some differences. This is how we get the idea that sex is wrong — too often preached or intimated — rather than understanding that sex is simply reserved for marriage, not bad in itself. (It’s actually rather good.) We also send these messages about not having opposite sex friends, when really what I’ve talked about is that once you’re married, you shouldn’t be spending a lot of time with someone of the opposite sex. It’a different situation when you’re single, though — I had a lot of guy friends in college.
From my own background, I also got the message that teen boys wanted sex and girls had to be the ones to set the boundaries. It was a ridiculous amount of pressure — making me responsible for 2 souls (mine and his) — and completely ignored my own sexual desires. What about girls who struggle with lust? Isn’t the biblical message the same for both genders on this one?
One other thought I had.
The same groups that preach the “boys will be boys” excuse and place the burden on women for men’s sexual thoughts and behaviors tend to be the same groups that preach that men have a spiritual superiority over women. That women can’t have a position of authority over men because women are weaker.
So, which is it? Men are spiritually superior and have greater insight and self-control than women? Or they are actually inferior and just slightly higher than the animals? Of course the answer is NEITHER is true or Biblical.
Wow, that is interesting!
Thank you so much for this. Not only does it explain some feelings I’ve experienced without realizing the cause, but it opened my eyes to the fact that I automatically sexualized my own gender because of these kinds of teachings. I appreciate this so much because I can change the way I teach my children! And can start re-wiring my brain with another topic. Your posts are always very appreciated and I love your gift of expression that, in my opinion, is clear and concise and not at all offensive. Thank you so much for your words.
Oh, thank you, Kate! I really appreciate that encouragement, too.
Wow! This is just what I needed to hear! It wasn’t until I started reading Christian marriage books that I had anxiety that my man was lusting after other women. My man didn’t become a Christian until his late teen years and he always told me that he didn’t struggle with lusting after other women. Yet all these Christian books and resources kept telling me men can’t help but lust. This is a great article, that I will have to come back to whenever I am feeling insecure about this issue. Amen Sheila!! Keep up the good work!
With God’s power men can be completely lust free and be completely faithful to their wife. For any women who are struggling with this, I recommend praying that your husband would have absolutely no lust in his mind, and also talking to him about openly. These have helped a lot in my relationship.
So glad it helped, Rachel! And, honestly, what I’ve found is that men who became Christians later do have an easier time. I think we’re actually TRAINING our boys to lust in church by telling them that this will be their constant struggle. Men who don’t grow up in that environment may actually do better–which means we’re seriously doing something wrong!
All the women in my family wore skirts/dresses and nothing too short or too tight and nothing sleeveless. I actually remember my mother going outside to greet my Dad home from work, she was wearing a tank top, and he got upset.
I grew up thinking that if a man noticed me, it was somehow my body’s fault. It wasn’t until I got older that men did. The first time I was aware of it I was probably 16, at the grocery store, wearing an old pair of jeans that were 2 sizes too big and a long sleeved turtle neck. He didn’t even try to hide it either! I’ve also been stared at other times, and winked at. It makes you feel dirty, and wrong, and evil.
Then my sweet baby sister became a teenager, lost weight and started looking like a 20 yr old instead of the 14 yr old she was. And I see men all the time staring or peaking at her, taking double takes, and it makes me so mad!!! It makes me even more mad when I see that she notices them too. I can tell it makes her feel dirty and ashamed.
So my thinking started to change. There isn’t anything wrong with thinking a woman is attractive or thinking she has a nice figure, but when you dwell on those thoughts and start fantasizing about them that’s when it becomes lust, and it’s wrong to blame the object of your lust.
MEN HAVE A CHOICE.
And I make sure my sister knows that.
I am a pastor and I never hear any messages like you described. We as men and women get along together very well. We greet each other with hugs and no sexual lust. We just enjoy each others company, work together and do not go around saying that women are in charge of keeping men from lusting, and that men are lusting all the time. It is not true, we are Christians and can control our thoughts, feelings, and actions. We try to be like Jesus.
I too am sick of this expression. If that’s not enough, people use examples in nature, ie male animals fighting, to prolong the use of this stupid chain of words. The grave to it already!! Yes I can see the obvious differences between the sexes and don’t need to be reminded ad nauseam that a male is a male is a male.
Ditto Sister! So sick of same for so long. Sick of being blamed for men’s lack of self-control. The Apostle Paul through Christ was able to control himself. Why is less expected of today’s Christian men that are supposed to “leaders” of marriage & family called to “Love their wives AS CHRIST LOVED THE CHURCH & GAVE HIMSELF FOR IT”? That means being a servant like Jesus was/is to the church, His bride, a picture of how a husband is to love his wife: selfless love & service w/o expecting necessarily anything in return. It’s supposed to be representative of the Lord Jesus Christ’s LOVE & SACRIFICE for us that draws us, not pridefully wheildingpower over us or demanding anything from us. Those who respond to that kind of selfless love do it bc we are simply overwhelmed & amazed by His overwhelming UNCONDITIONAL, UNDESERVED, EVERLASTING, UNFAILING MERCY, LOVE, & GRACE for us, not motivated by expections of anything in return, not depending on whether we love Him back or not, just pure love for us. But those of us “whosoevers will”, we gratefully accept & welcome His great love. What said pastors are missing is that men CAN DO & BE like Christ in this way too, but NOT in their OWN strength bc NO HUMAN can be like Christ except THROUGH THE STRENGTH IN CHRIST JESUS’ HE CAN PROVIDE US IF WE WANT IT. It can ONLY HAPPEN GENUINELY & LONG TERM thru the Holy Spirit in us working thru us supernaturally to accomplish what He, the Lord, would have us to do & be. (Phillipians) Amen.