Did God make sex primarily for husbands? Are wives supposed to be quasi-sexual slaves?
I’d say, “absolutely not, that’s absurd!” But this week that view crept up again.
I wrote a post on Monday about what to do if there’s one part of your body that your husband likes sexually that you just can’t stand him touching. Perhaps you have pain, or flashbacks from abuse, or something else that makes it creepy. I talked about finding compromise while working on the root issue. If anything, I thought I’d get some grief from people saying, “If there’s something she doesn’t like, he has to live with it.” And I did get a bit of that.
But the commenters who said, “the husband has authority over her body, so she has no right to deny him that” really surprised me. I let a few of those comments through; several men left incredibly disgusting ones, while still claiming to be Christian, and I deleted those ones.
It’s similar to the comments I got in this series of posts about how it’s okay for a woman to say, “I need to wait 6 weeks after childbirth”, or “not during my period.” I had several men saying the waiting six weeks wasn’t justified because it wasn’t “by mutual consent”.
This astounds me. I thought that we were beyond that. But because we obviously aren’t, I want to address this view today. I know that this is a fringe view, and that 95% of you reading this would find it abhorrent. But the underlying philosophy behind it–that women were created primarily to serve men–is still prevalent, and it needs to be debunked.
So let’s jump in.
My critique here is from both Thought #5–I’m not in competition with my husband; we’re aiming for oneness instead–and Thought #8–Making love is not the same thing as having sex–from my new book 9 Thoughts That Can Change Your Marriage.
No passage is as absolutely clear about the mutuality aspect of sex than 1 Corinthians 7.
My commenters used it to say, “she has to do everything he wants, regardless of her feelings,” but a clear reading of the passage shows that this is not what Paul meant.
The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
Look how many times “mutual” is mentioned or implied. Every privilege given to men is also given to women. Sex is about “us”, not him or her.
In fact, it is the WIFE’S sexual concerns that are mentioned first. “The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife” is the starting point of this passage.
And if the wife has authority over the husband’s body, that means that she can also ask him not to use it in a way that denigrates her.
Nevertheless, some people insist on reading this to mean that women can never say no to anything a husband wants. I even read a post written by a man recently arguing that there is no such thing as marital rape, because of the husband’s authority over the wife’s body.
So what does this idea do–this idea that sex is primarily for him? Let’s look at it together.
It Denigrates Women
If you believe that a wife should give a husband sexually whatever he wants whenever he wants, even if it causes the wife trauma of some sort, then you are saying:
His momentary pleasure is more important than her psychological, sexual, or emotional pain.
Do you know what that reminds me of? The ethos behind pornography. Porn says: a man’s sexual release is the only important thing, and he can use whoever he wants however he wants to get that. Porn celebrates men using women as they want for their own pleasure, without regard for the woman’s well-being.
We have a serious problem if we are using Scripture to encourage people to view women the way that the porn industry sees women.
It Denigrates Marriage
What I was arguing in the article was this:
Both spouses have legitimate needs. So let’s see how she can find ways to meet his needs as much as she can, while she also maintains some boundaries for her own emotional health and works on her issues.
Let’s have the wife giving to the husband, and the husband giving to the wife, and let’s have them working towards real intimacy and health.
And then the commenters said, “no, she has to give to the husband, period.”
I was arguing for mutuality; they were saying that only she has to give.
One of the basic misunderstandings we have here, I believe, is mistaking the means for the ends.
What is it that Jesus prayed for for his followers? “That they may be one.” (John 17:21). Or what about 1 Corinthians 1:10, that we be “perfectly united in mind and thought”, or 2 Corinthians 3:11, that we be of “one mind”? And when we marry, we become “one flesh”. Oneness is God’s plan for us.
And how do we get there? We serve each other. We submit to one another (Ephesians 5:21)–women to their husbands, while husbands love their wives as Christ loved the church.
The goal is oneness; the means are serving, submitting, and loving.
Some people read these “means” as very hierarchical. The woman is to do what the man says. Oneness is no longer the goal; having the husband calling the shots while the wife obeys becomes the goal. And this makes marriage into a hierarchical relationship, rather than an intimate, loving partnership where both support each other.
I deal with this line of thinking quite a bit on this blog, but especially in Thought #5 of 9 Thoughts That Can Change Your Marriage. You can also read more about what submission means and what submission doesn’t mean.
It Denigrates Sex
One of the big critiques I make of our culture is that it makes sex into something which is only physical. Sex was supposed to unite us physically, spiritually, and emotionally. It is not only a physical experience, and in The Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex I show how sex is really a spiritual experience, too.
However, if you believe that women should give men what they want sexually, with no regards to themselves, then you make the same mistake the world does. You cheapen sex, making it only physical.
And if you are of the mindset that women were created to serve men (as Debi Pearl argues in Created to Be His Helpmeet, for instance), then it’s easy to make this leap that sexually women were created to serve men, too.
For emotional and spiritual intimacy during sex there has to be mutuality. Sure, sometimes we can have sex just for him–there’s nothing wrong with a quickie, of course! But on the whole, sex should reflect a deeply loving relationship. If sex for you, though, means doing something that you hate, then sex can’t be loving. Sex is only one-way giving. That’s not mutual. That’s servicing someone. And now sex is only physical once again. You’ve wrecked the whole point of sex, which is a deep “knowing” of each other. You can’t get to that level if she’s in pain, if she’s scared, if she’s having flashbacks–and then add to all that, if he doesn’t care.
It Diminishes the Reality of Emotional and Psychological Pain
I sometimes think that these commenters don’t understand that people honestly can experience trauma and pain. People who believe as these commenters do see Christianity as harsh rules: you have to do this or else. Emotional trauma is irrelevant. It’s not important what you feel. What’s important is that you do what God tells you!
But that’s not the picture the Bible gives us. Read the book of Psalms sometime; David was in complete emotional anguish writing most of it. Jeremiah went through bouts of depression; so did Jonah and Elijah. And God never once said, “stop your complaining and just do what I said!” Instead, he gently talked to these prophets and comforted them and showed them who He was and that He cared.
God cares about your emotional and psychological pain.
And He doesn’t want you to go through that pain. He wants to heal it. And healing can’t be done by forcing it. I shared this quotation from the Eldredges on Facebook this week which sums this up perfectly:
Sexual trauma works like this: we are at our most vulnerable sexually, because during sex we completely bare ourselves, physically and emotionally. When there’s trauma, then, it sears us. And if you pressure her to do things that are difficult, you cement in her mind that sex is a negative, horrible experience. If a woman has vaginismus pain during sex), for instance, and you tell her she has no right to refuse, and she has to “let him” have intercourse several times a week (or everyday), and the whole time she is crying, then she is associating pain, degradation, and fear with sex. Not only is it just physical pain; it’s also a ton of emotional pain as well. That makes healing so that she can enjoy sex and live life abundantly even harder.
Sex is Supposed to Be For Both of You!
Let’s do a thought experiment. Picture a little girl growing up in a family where she’s often dismissed and forgotten. She has an uncle who is drunk a lot who likes to feel up under her shirt. She squirms and tries to get away but she can’t.
When she’s 15, and he’s totally drunk one night, he forces her to perform oral sex on him.
She leaves home shortly thereafter, pulls her life together, and gets married.
Now, when her husband touches her breasts, she’s taken back to that drunken uncle. She feels panicky. She squirms. What she wants, more than anything, is to bolt from the room.
Now picture Jesus standing there.
I don’t like asking the question What Would Jesus Do very often because I think it’s become trite. But sometimes we need to, because we debate theology and interpretation of Scripture so much that we forget about the person of Jesus Christ with whom we actually have a relationship.
So picture that Jesus. Would He say to that panicky woman, “Your husband has authority over your body. You need to repent of withholding, and you need to gladly let him delight in your breasts from now on, whenever your husband wants.”
Or would He say, “I am so heartbroken that someone stole the beauty of sex from you. But I created marriage so that you can heal as you love one another unconditionally. Right now, love each other and comfort each other the best you can, but let’s really work on healing from this trauma, because I promise you: healing is in Me. And what I want for you, my child, is an abundant life and freedom. I died for that. Let’s find it together.”
Quite frankly, anyone who thinks Jesus would say the first simply does not serve the same Jesus that I do.
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Sheila Wray Gregoire has been married for 29 years and happily married for 24! She loves traveling around North America with her hubby in their RV, giving her signature "Girl Talk" about sex and marriage. And she's written 7 books. About sex and marriage. See a theme here? Plus she knits. Even in line at the grocery store.
Thank you, Shelia. As a survivor of sexual abuse in my teens, this was beautifully written. It hurts me to think of men and women who use the Bible to their advantage, not for the truth that’s written.
Just because I am married does not give my husband control over my body simply for his pleasure. Before I became a wife, I was a woman of God and a human being. The title of “wife” still doesn’t change that.
In no way should women continually deny their husbands (what good is that?) but with years of therapy, eating well, prayer, exercise, and being surrounded by an uplifting group of women & my family-healing does occur.
Some men also have the same problem as some women too!
Perhaps that verse means something like this
… When you marry, you commit your body to oneness with your spouse. Your body is now for the pleasure of your spouse ONLY, the sexual experience belongs to only them and you are not free to offer your body to someone else or follow desires outside of marriage. Since your spouse is not free to find sexual satisfaction elsewhere, do not deprive them of that satisfaction with you. This is an important part of marriage and must be taken to heart….
This validates both husband and wife, and rather than placing the wife as a sexual slave to the husband’s lustful impulses, it shows the importance of being faithful, due to the fact that being married means your body is for your spouse not for yourself anymore, and the importance of meeting each other’s needs mutually out of love, not authoritatively or lustfully.
Love that, Erika!
what a misunderstanding of the scriptures if we believe we must allow anything to be done to us by our husband. I don’t see anywhere in the Bible that lends itself to that concept. No wonder so many people are getting away from the teaching in the scripture of wives submitting to their husband…it’s because they don’t understand what that looks like. Submission isn’t meant to be in place so that your spouse can take advantage of you.
This line of thinking leads to so much abuse in marriage. I’m very glad you have addressed it.
Honestly though, on a practical level, I would think that a husband would rather have his wife enjoy her time with him verses dread it. If she feels like she must be with him sexually, it will come out in her attitude.
Keelie, I would think that a normal husband would want that, too. But from what I’ve seen in the comments from many men, there are far too many out there who are (mis)using the Scriptures to justify pressuring/emotionally forcing their wives to do things that the wives feel extremely uncomfortable with. I don’t understand guys who would do that; shouldn’t part of the fun sexually be seeing your wife respond to you? But apparently they don’t think so, and I find that downright scary.
It wouldn’t bother me so much if they didn’t (mis)use Scripture, but they do. And then I have women coming on this blog saying, “I couldn’t marry a guy in my church because they all treat their wives like they are their property! So I married a nonChristian man who treats me well instead.” And I find that so sad. We need to fight against this culture that doesn’t value real intimacy. It undermines marriage, it undermines our Christian witness, it diminshes abuse. It’s horrible.
Wow…that is so insane. We need to do a better job teaching people in the church about sexual intimacy and the purpose of marriage.
I would answer these men who say six weeks after childbirth and during her period are denying him with more scripture. I can’t remember the exact verses but God did set limits on when woman were consider clean and unclean and couldn’t have sex. Six weeks after childbirth and during her period are considered unclean and therefore men are not to have sex with their wife. So the Bible supports these times to allow a women’s body to heal. As to those men who think their wife should be available to them at all times. I would say they don’t understand the true meaning of love. If your wife hurts physically or emotionally during sex or if one aspect makes her feel that way and you say to her do it anyway, how is this showing her love? Love is patient, love is kind. That’s also in the Bible. Love does not hurt. It took me nine weeks after my first child before I could handle sex. It felt like a knife cutting me because of the damage done from delivering a big baby. If my husband had not given me the extra time to heal I would have been traumatized emotionally and physically (more than I already was from childbirth) and it would have been devastating to the way I felt about my husband. But because he loved me he was patient and waited and took getting our sex live going again at my pace.
It sounds like you have a wonderful husband!
As a woman who grew up in a culture that believes the women’s body is for a man I was pleasantly surprised to find my husband respected my limitations. There are some things I just couldn’t do from the abuse. He understood. He waited 22 years for me to do things. He was patient. He never intentionally made me feel less than his wife. I had to finally believe my body was my own because as a child I learned it was not.
Sex is meant to be a giving to one another…not a taking of one another. It’s sweet and pleasant and soul/breath taking when it’s put in its proper place.
Men who disregard a women’s right to her own body are a shame to masculinity.
I love this statement that you made: Men who disregard a women’s right to her own body are a shame to masculinity.
Exactly! They really are.
Absolutely! Love your last sentence.
Bravo – well said
Sorry to tell you this, but a man’s wife’s body is his, just as his is hers(unless I misunderstood). Yes, the sexual intimacy of marriage is indeed to be mutual and about willingly giving yourselves to one another as needed and able, but in the end your body is your husband’s, not yours. He should indeed put your needs above his own, but so should you his.
Yes this is an old thread … but many of the comments got me to thinking … and I have to just say … WOW! … on both the good side (Tauny had some awesome commentary — that can even be applied out side of this thread; and of course Sheila; and others too … of course). And then WOW on the commentary that just makes your head turn like a dog listening to a high pitched noise! — holy cow! I just have no words. I cannot imagine a marriage based on what appears to be the control of another! How is that honoring to God! … whew!
Anyway, I wanted to add this, which I am sure was blending in much of the conversation but I just had toss in a comment! …
When some have spoken about who’s body is who’s:
The implication that our (I’m the husband 🙂 ) wives’ bodies are ours and ours are theirs … that verbiage, when separated from the spirit of mutuality, infers the idea that there is no unity. In other words, “I have something my spouse doesn’t have, and my spouse has something that I don’t have”. In marriage, it should be our house, our money, our kids, our cars, our church, etc. and with that, and by Gods design, it is our (both husband and wife’s) body. We are a singular unit in the marriage construct and interdependent in everything — neither one exclusively “owns” anything outside of the other.
So to claim a women’s body is not hers but her husbands, or a man’s body is not his but his wife’s — and unity/mutuality is left OUT of the concept — simply does not support Gods design of marriage. We are indeed individual care takers of our parts and pieces we have responsibility for, but we must care for those aspects with the mindset of serving the marriage body.
For marriage, in the sexual realm, that translates to serving the marriage body — nurturing what makes the unity of the two stronger.
Personally, I have found that what I once thought of as sacrifice (“I will if you REALLY want me to”) has become a sheer joy, if not need, to do! Not because *I* magically ‘get more’ — but because the one I love absolutely MELTS with it! — and I want her to bask in my love for her! The reverse has happened too! Sometimes, at an impass (ie: its just not going to work as we hoped/desired), we work together to create the same, or similar experiences or sensations, through a different action or activity.
Marriage has been designed to grow closer as one everyday, just as we are to grow closer to God everyday. We are to work on it TOGETHER as ONE — sharing and voluntarily yielding all we have to offer to the other, without malice or greed.
That’s a BEAUTIFUL insight, Brent! Thank you for sharing. It makes so much sense, and is absolutely in line with the Bible, too!
Sheila,
I will first admit that I do not agree with you on much and agree with the group that you are addressing much more. I can tell you from reading many blog posts about you and commenting back and forth with men and women our biggest concern with you is we believe you pass yourself off as someone you are not. We do not pester or argue with Rachel Held Evans because she don’t pass herself off as a conservative Christian.
You would find much less hostility if you openly stated what you believe in a concise belief statement and posted it prominently on your website under one of your banners. Once you state that you do not believe in headship or submission as it’s traditionally understood, if you state what you believe on the ordination of women, what a woman’s role is, what a husband’s role is, etc (which all these things are right in the wheelhouse of what you speak on each day) I think you’ll find that first you will lose a lot of readers (which is why we don’t believe you’ve done this or will do it) and second we will know longer care about you as we won’t feel like you are trying to sneak in the back door of our Christian sister’s minds and hearts. If you believe it, state it proudly and own it. If you can do that, I can promise I can get at least a dozen of these folks to leave you alone because we’ve discussed this. I suspect many of the rest will though I can’t promise that. But don’t be wishy washy, state exactly what you believe as clearly and precisely as you can. If you believe you’ve got the market on truth then stating it clearly should help your cause not hurt it so if you truly believe what you believe you’ve got nothing to lose and only upside to doing what I am suggesting.
And trust me, we don’t want any more a part of you and what you believe than you want of us but thankfully Christ’s blood covers both your sin and mine for neither of us deserve it. For He is good and gracious. We are long past believing we can change your mind but will continue to fight and argue for what we believe is right and the truth of scripture until you clearly draw a line in the sand stating your actual theology so all women seeking advice from you can clearly see if they’d like to take counsel from you or not. God bless, Dan
Why does she have to state her theological beliefs? Why? Because you can dismiss her? I love that I don’t really know much about what she believes as far as religion goes. BECAUSE I don’t come here to discuss theology. I come here to get help about sex and marriage and BECAUSE I trust Sheila to tell me the truth.
It’s sad really that you dismiss Rachel. She at least is honest.
I’m not sure what doctrine you follow but I’ve been an independent baptist my whole life and she lines up with a lot of other independent baptist beliefs. If you are so concerned about submission check out what lysa terkeurst and the authors of true woman 201 say: it’s an leasable spirit not blind obedience. Also older women are to teach younger women. So this blog is a blessing
It seems that she’s been pretty open and up front about her beliefs. I didn’t read anything wishy washy in that post. I’m not sure how much more clearly one can spell it out. Jesus…not rules and laws…is the only way to healing and abundant life.
Everything the Scriptures teach about submission in marriage is that it is mutual. Yes, the husband is the head of the wife as the wife as Christ is the head of the church–which means that we place ourselves under his loving care and leadership–but the husband is to love the wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. This kind of mutual love, respect and submission is what Sheila teaches. Ephesians 5:21 says “Submit to ONE ANOTHER out of reverence for Christ” (emphasis added).
FYI, if you’re interested in my theological beliefs, I am LCMS Lutheran and believe that women are not to be pastors and have the authority over the Church that men do, but this does not mean that women cannot teach with the wisdom they have been given.
Dan how rude of you coming here and telling Sheila what to do. Is this your blog? No. So if you dont like it, go. Nobody is forcing you to read it. Sheila has helped so many women and we like her and her blog just the way they are!
You have far too much time on your hands.
Thank you so much for writing this post! It’s appalling that there are people who treat women like doormats in the name of Christ. I remember reading Created to Be His Help Meet as a young teenager, and I thought the book seemed kind of harsh, but had a few good things…until I got married and re-read the book! It was then that I realized the book was not just harsh, it was full of toxic and poisonous thinking. It was also full of name-calling, legalism, and demands for wives with not an ounce of compassion. Unfortunately, I still have friends and family who believe in this book, even though they say they don’t agree with everything in it. CTBHHM paints a picture of a really mean and tyrannical God who created women to be slaves. It is an evil way of thinking, and I’m grateful that I can see that now. Unfortunately, many still think God favors men over women, and they hurt many women in the very name of Jesus which is supposed to set us free from bondage!
I Caution people that
that Debi & Mike Pearl have a
Sadistic/ masochistic theology for marriage.
Michael is a real “gem”. A-hem.
That book should be called ” created to be his HELP MAT!”
Jesus came to set us Free not bring us into worse bondage.
I suggest men love their wives as themselves, that would change everything, cuz men love themselves
ALOT!
Yeah its in the Bible.
Thank you for this post. Since reading Created to Be His Help Meet, the concept of submission has been difficult for me to accept. I really appreciate the way that you portray the doctrine of submission– that it’s not just about me bending over backwards for my husband because I was unfortunate enough to be born female; that while submission is important, marriage is about mutuality and oneness and not about me being a slave to my husband. I have learned a lot from your blog, and thank you for your honesty and sensitivity on this often-distorted subject.
I would suggest reading “Each for the Other”. It paints a really beautiful picture of what mutual submission is supposed to look like.
We are taught to “hearken unto the will of thy husband AS HE hearkens unto the will of thy Father”. If the husband is not hearkening to the will of his Father in Heaven he is using unrighteous dominion. If he IS hearkening to the will of the Father, he will be living a life of love and respect and we can then hearken unto his will as the head of our family. I think alot of men miss the point that they are only do that which the Lord would approve of if they want their wives to listen and respect their stewardship. And He has made it very clear that men are to love their wives with all their heart, might, mind, and strength. Love is not cruel and demanding. Love is patient and kind… always!!
Love is patient and kind, absolutely! Some days I wish I could just say, “Honestly, people, just LOVE EACH OTHER.”
Can we have a gain AMEN!
I’m so glad, Erin! thank you.
I just wanted to address the “what would Jesus do question”. I no longer ask what would Jesus do, but “What would Jesus want ME to do in this situation?” It somehow changes it and makes it more about my personal responsibility. I want to live my life to honor Jesus. He’s the reason we strive so hard to be like him. We won’t ever achieve that, but we know EXACTLY what he wants/expects us to do. He would want men to treat women with love and respect in every aspect of the relationship. PERIOD. And vice versa of course. Sex is a super hot topic button because there is so much involved in the experience. It was designed by a loving Heavenly Father to enrich the marital relationship. But Satan will always take those things that are good and cheapen and potentially destroy them. In every situation, ask yourself, “Is this how Jesus wants me to treat my spouse?”
Great thoughts, Cathy!
Oh Sheila, I too thought we are past this too..esp in the west. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 “Love is patient, love is kind….It is not rude, it is not self-seeking….It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres”
I think some readers missed the point – that you are giving ideas on what to do AS THEY WORK towards wholeness. In my books, saying “let’s figure out how to make it work as I work through my issues” is a whole lot more loving, more healthy, more Godly than gritting your teeth and “enduring” it. I honestly don’t know how any Jesus-loving christian husband would enjoy such sex.
I think some readers who hop on here and give super wide views have not experienced a certain level of brokenness and hurt. It’s easy to look from the outside and wax biblical but when you are going through really terrible times, you appreciate real practical Biblical insights.
I have grown and been stretched through reading your blog and insights. I’ve learned so much.
Let me ask you a question? Why is it wrong or why would it be called a issue if their is a part of your body that you don’t like to be touch or why is it a problem if their is sexual things that you will not do with your husband. I would like for persons to tell me where in the bible it says fix what ever you don’t like or won’t do sexually or don’t like to do with your husband because it’s your obligation to do whatever he wants to so you don’t make him feel like you’re rejecting him. I can’t believe women or men think that their is something so wrong with them that they need to read one persons opinion. This makes me very sad to read that women or men actually feel this way. Your mom and dads let you down in my opinion.
CJ, I think it’s just called mutual love. If you love someone, and they want something that is reasonable, then why not work towards it? Isn’t that the loving thing to do? Now if it’s something that is really awkward or wrong or painful, then obviously you don’t. But if it’s something that is a part of most people’s sex lives, and you can work on it, why wouldn’t you?
Sex is about giving love. If someone enjoys something I would think that the best way to say I love you is to do the thing that brings them pleasure. But if you are doing something because you think you are required to or it’s a duty. Don’t. Just don’t.
I had sex with my husband. A lot. Because I was told to. I wasn’t engaged. I didn’t like it. And it hurt more than anything I can explain to hear him say, 20 years later, “I knew. And there were nights I just wish you wouldn’t. Because I felt like you were just letting me use you.” It’s not about sex…like I was taught.
It IS easy to get over the issues when you want to because you love them and you want to do something to surprise them. Well, if you have abuse issues that you haven’t worked on, it’s not easy…but it’s worth it. I have been surprised by my fierce determination to get over the things I wouldn’t do because they caused anxiety, flashbacks and disgust. Not only do I like it, he likes it and I feel empowered. Like I have MY life back. And I’m making my own choices. It’s saved our marriage and it’s made us incredibly close.
That’s why I personally would never turn back on an issue.
In the original post, the wife writing in mentioned that her husband absolutely loves her breasts and is obsessed with them. She does not *have* to fix anything, but love is other-seeking, so it would be extremely loving for her to try to grow in this area. If she simply cannot get over her aversion, I sure hope her husband would be loving and not violate her by groping her against her will, but her husband would be extremely pleased if she were able to overcome this aversion, and she probably will be too! It would be wonderful if they could enjoy that kind of touch together.
I guess here is my personal example that comes to my mind. (I apologize if this is TMI.) For most of my 10 year marriage so far, I absolutely hated everything about receiving oral sex. I absolutely could not stand it, and my husband respected that and did not ask to perform it. That said, he continually reassured me that it was something he desired and was eager to do. I checked myself and realized that I had my own issues in thinking that I am gross down there. By doing some things such as always washing beforehand and trimming, etc, I was able to overcome some of my hang ups, but some of it was just learning to relax and get over myself. It took the better part of a year, but now I have learned to enjoy it tremendously and finally understand what all the buzz is about. I am so thankful that my husband respected me along the way by not forcing me to do it just because he wanted to do it just because he liked it, but I am also very thankful that I pushed myself out of a desire to please him and now we can BOTH enjoy this. I would hope that this wife would try to do the same, and if she is successful, she will enjoy his touch! She has nothing to lose and everything to gain from trying to work through this!
Exactly, Kay! Great thoughts. I think too often we stay stagnant and we miss out on what’s amazing because we figure, “this is just the way I am and I can’t change it.” But you CAN! It just takes some work…
Thanks for your words, Ngina!
I would normally agree with your statement–that many of them haven’t experienced the brokenness and hurt. But recently I’ve talked to a lot of women who have come out of this movement, and their lives were FULL of such brokenness. They were just taught to suppress it because that’s what being a Good Christian Girl was. And ironically, having strict rules about what to do, and having someone else control you, made it easier to suppress it. Until one day they just couldn’t take it anymore.
I think many in these sorts of movements are very broken, and that’s one reason they’re attracted to it. It’s much easier to live with harsh rules than it is to “live by the Spirit.” And if you’ve grown up abused, always questioning yourself, having strict guidelines is somehow easier.
The rates of domestic abuse are far higher in hyper-conservative Christian circles than in normal Christian circles. They just don’t deal with it or talk about it. And once people DO start dealing with the abuse–they leave the hyper-Christian churches in droves. That seems to be the trend. So I hope that those on this blog who are hurting, and who are suppressing it, will see that there is an alternative.
A wonderful example of this is Natalie from Visionary Womanhood who has just come out of this church culture and realized true freedom in Christ. She’s been so raw and so honest on her blog–but there is much abuse and hurt there. They just don’t admit it.
Like seriously. Where do these people even come from? What sewer did they crawl out of?
I’ve been a Christian all my life. I’ve been reading Christian marriage books for 17 years. I’ve never come across this kind of nonsense. Maybe I’ve just been extremely lucky.
You know where I first encountered the idea of sex being about giving and taking? Isaac Asimov. The Caves of Steel Trilogy. I remember reading it when I was 11 years old and being really struck by how beautiful mutual giving can be. Now anyone familiar with his work would know that Asimov is not even remotely Christian. If he gets it, how sad is it that those people don’t? Where did they fall off the wagon? Have they like, even read the Bible? Did they forget to read the story in Genesis and where Jacobs’ sons murder an entire town for sexually abusing their sister? How about in Kings where Absalom murders his brother for violating his sister? Or when an entire war was started over the sexual mistreatment of a girl? As messed up as those stories were, I believe that reflects the heart of the Lord more accurately than “suck it up, your body belongs to your husband.” The Lord is an Avenger. He judges the oppressor the tyrant and the despot. He’s not one himself.
That’s awesome, Alchemist! Thank you!
I know! I never came across ANY of it until I got online. And I’ve always gone to what I consider the more conservative churches! But I’ve never seen ANY of this in those churches (in my homeschooling group, yes; in the churches, no). And I only started noticing it in the homeschooling group when I got educated about what they believed by my commenters online. It’s scary.
Thank you so much! You took that right out if my mouth!
So let me get this straight…these people believe that pornography is bad because its disrespectful of women and portrays them as sex objects. But on the other hand they turn their wives (or themselves) into sex objects and say its the will of God??? How very sad…
I know! But I’m not so sure all would argue that porn was wrong–at least if you look at the stats for how many use porn. It’s tragic.
This is why I am , again, thankful for Sheila and this blog. I am NOT a Christian (was raised as such but ran away from the bible and it’s teachings because of people like these posers) but I came across this site and read daily because I was searching to improve my marriage and myself. Things had been really bad, I felt alone in the relationship for 8 years of it, dear husband cheated once on me, pregnancy, baby, we came to terms with a lot of our mutual bad attitudes and have been healing with each other since the 6th week of pregnancy. Baby is now 10 months old. ? We have been going to church fairly regularly since baby girl was a few months old. What I’m trying to long windedly say is that without intelligent, compassionate, loving, forgiving Christians like Sheila and many of her guest posters I would still be running from this religion. Now I am studying more in-depth and learning how to behave and feel and react with love and compassion rather than with my old knee jerk reaction of protect myself first. If people truly want more people to come to Jesus, they really need to be more aware and careful of what they say and how they act. Even though I don’t consider myself Christian, the posts on this blog have helped a lot, even if to only give me a new perspective on my husband, my marriage, and myself.
I’m so thankful you shared this, Angie! Thank you so much for that encouragement! It made my day.
I agree with this lady Angie on some of the things she has said anout the church. My husband and i were both raise in the church. But neither one of us go to church or has raised are daughter in the church, because the church look down and judges people that don’t agree with their ways. I have to say that I have been and still am judged by friends of mine that are so called christian a lot more on how I don’t go to chruch, How I don’t let my husband dictate me on what I do,what I wear or what I say. I don’t agree with everything he says, I speak my mine that God gave me. How we didn’t raise are daughter though the church or raise her to look to the bible and chruch for answears. How we are ok and fine with are daughter not to blieve in God or marrage. Their are more hypocrites and judgmental people in the church then there not
This is such a good post! Our marriage isn’t perfect. We really have a long way to go. I try very hard to be available when my husband wants sex. We do have some issues, including my libido, so many times I am willing without exactly being thrilled about it. The enjoyment comes eventually. However sometimes I REALLY don’t want to have sex. When my hubby can see that, he respects that and waits a few hours or until the next day. I remember distinctly that the last time this happened, I would have had sex with him even though I really didn’t want to. I didn’t want to refuse him. But he loves me, and he wanted to have sex at a time when I would enjoy it too. He could have demanded his “rights.” But that would have been damaging to our marriage and our sex life. I love my hubby, and I appreciate his attitude about this.
Awesome!
Great post.
I like your point about “knowing”. In the Old Testament, there are several terms for sex, and the highest form is “knowing” (yada in Hebrew). If a husband truly wants to “know” his wife, and she confides in him that there is something which is deeply unpleasant for him and which kills her sex drive, wouldn’t he want to pay attention to what she said and use it to make sure that their lovemaking was pleasurable? What sort of man would say, “I don’t care that I’m not turning you on and am actually doing something that feels really unpleasant to you”?
That’s what I wonder, too, Cynthia. What kind of man would do that?
This post was so timely and needed in the body of Christ! I too read created to be his help meet many years ago and remember feeling stifled beyond belief. I will be printing this article out to share with my counseling class! Keep em coming, Sheila!!!!
Thank you, Donna!
I think it stems from a really strange sort of mental block that some folks have where they just cannot, for whatever reason, see men and women as being equally human. They may desire women or even “love” a particular woman, but they can’t accept that a woman has thoughts, experiences, and drives that are as real as a man’s thoughts, experiences, and drives.
I first ran into it working with kids–there are people that think that a child, for example, who is in pain, isn’t *really* in pain the same way an adult would be. Sure, they would allow that the child *thinks* they’re in pain, but it’s not *real* pain like a grownup’s, and the child needs to learn to toughen up. This sort of person views childhood as the process of turning into a real person. Likewise, I’ve run into some men who just don’t think that a woman can *ever* have the intelligence or moral integrity a man can have.
They don’t put it that way, of course, because “women aren’t quite as human as men are” sounds ridiculous on its face. Instead they talk about gender differences, to the point that anything men and women have in common (like, oh, say, being image-bearers of the living God) is looked at with suspicion. And it’s this kind of guy that will see malice and manipulation in everything a woman does, because she’s not a real person–she isn’t *really* experiencing pain, she isn’t *really* feeling fear, she doesn’t have *real* concerns and can never offer *real* insight–she is making all that up to get something. When you don’t believe real friendship and mutual desire with your spouse are even possible, things get shallow or scary pretty darn fast.
I’m not trying to give women a pass. We can dehumanize men, too. But I think everyone would be better served if we can *really* strive to see each other the way Jesus sees us. Like Shelia said, if you think He would say some of the harsh, mean things that are lobbed at hurting spouses, male OR female, I think we worship different lords.
That’s really interesting, Raven–I never thought about that regarding a child’s pain, but we do dismiss kids’ feelings so often. Perhaps that is the root of a lot of this–a dehumanization of women. How scary!
Ashley. If you are saying that you still have sex even when your not in the mood and there are times your husband knows your not in the mood but he still want sex and you give it to him even though you really don’t want. I am sorry, but that doesn’t sound like love or repect. I must be just really lucky to have a husband like mine. Becausre since i had a hysterectomy at 26 my sex drive dropped and that was 12 tears ago. My husband never mad me feel bad gulty if he wanted sex and I told him no because I wasn’t in the mood. This is a man that was use to having sex sometime twice a day for three year every day even with a new born up until I had a hysterectomy.
I think maybe you misunderstood that part of my comment, so I’ll try to clarify. I’m not a high-drive woman. But if hubby is in the mood, there are generally things he can do to get me in the mood. Once we kiss a few times, or I get a back rub, I’m thinking about a good time in bed just like he is. That’s how my libido works. It usually needs a jump start. And once we get going I generally have a fabulous time. I do try to be available even when I don’t feel like it, partly because I know this about myself. Once we get started I’ll be glad we did! 😉
That’s a completely different point then I thought you were making. Because their are time me and my husband have done that to each other just because are mines were somewhere else.
What if her husband said, “I detest talking so don’t try to talk to me 49 out of every 50 days.” Wonder how that would go over. SMH
Refusing to talk and withholding sex are both detrimental to marriage. We are not talking about women vs. men here, we are addressing if it’s okay for women to be treated less important and with less respect in the marriage bed. No one is advocating that women are more important than men; we are advocating that women be treated with the same respect and dignity as men when it comes to sex. There are times when I want sex, and my husband is tired and doesn’t feel like having sex, and I respect that. Why shouldn’t I expect the same from him if he’s in the mood, and I’m feeling tired from taking care of our kids all day? We have a joint ownership over each other’s bodies, but we also have mutual boundaries with that joint ownership and nothing is wrong with that. Neither of us demands from the other, ww have a mutual respect for each other’s boundaries, and we have a great sex life. I just don’t understand why it’s so hard for people to understand the simplicity of respect-treating others the way you want to be treated.
I think talking might be juuuuuuust a little bit easier than letting someone penetrate and use you for sexual release. Or do you think that a father who rapes his child is the same as a father that doesnt talk to his child much?
Oh, Amanda, stay on point! Both rape and incest are crimes, (and clearly prohibited, biblically). Even the most feminist of Christian wives would not compare sexual disinterest to rape, and that is what the discussion is about…
There’s a huge difference in a wife not wanting her boobs constantly grabbed and having “sexual disinterest”. The woman asking for advice wasn’t saying she doesn’t want to have sex with her husband or that sex turns her off, but rather that she wishes her husband would treat her with respect. Do you believe there is such a thing as marital rape? Because it sounds like you don’t. I personally know a woman whose husband was forcing her to have sex when she was on her period, and other times when she didn’t want to have sex. She divorced him because he was not respecting her rights over her own body. Every woman and every man should have a right to their own body, and be willing to surrender that right, but not out of obligation. No one should be forced against their will to have sex with another-be it a woman or a man. Love does not demand from others, and it does not put its wants or needs before others. A healthy marriage should involve mutual sex-but if it comes down to it, a man or a woman is not going to die without sex, as hard as I imagine that is! I know a couple who have a sexless marriage and have had one for twenty plus years. The man has never cheated on his wife, nor forced her to have sex with him, and sadly, she is not willing to get to the root of the issue or get counseling. He has resigned himself to a sexless marriage from the day they said their vows, and he’s made it abundantly clear he’s not leaving her. I admire him so much for his patience and selflessness. Yes, his wife is sinning by defrauding her husband, but would her husband be sinning less by forcing her against her will to give him something that she can’t and won’t give due to trauma from a past experience? If it’s feminist to say that marital rape does exist, then count me in.
Also, I meant to add, this post from Sheila was a follow-up post to a post titled “I hate it when my husband touches me there. It was posted in part due to some very awful and insensitive comments about how she should just “suck it up and deal with it” without any regard for her personal feelings. So I’m sorry if my comment confused you! If you haven’t read it yet, I’d suggest reading that for a bit more context so you understand where I’m coming from.
Most men in sexless marriages do. That’s why they are in sexless marriages in the first place. And most conservative Christian men who believe in headship do say that. Just like you did. They also say, what if he doesn’t go to work, clean up after himself, contribute financially, meet her emotional needs or parent because he doesn’t feel like it.
You can learn a lot about what people mean by listening. In your case, and the case of most Christian men who believe in headship, and most sex positive men. What you can learn is that sex is completely for men. A sexless marriage is one in which a woman doesn’t do everything he man wants exactly the ways he wants it every single time. Women should never ever under any circumstances have any say in any aspect of sex (or anything else) because that’s not being submissive.
The other thing you learn is that the division of responsibility in a headship, submission is
Wife: take of the yard and house and vehicles, support the family and pay the bills, raise the kids, comply unconditionally with the husband demands, wait in the man’s every whim, serve all his emotional needs, never bother him under any circumstances with anything concerning you or the children. Men’s responsibility:
This is why women owe men sexual favors when the man does anything. If he does anything he’s doing her job that he shoudnt have to do. Is this Biblcial? I doubt it. But it’s rampantant in concervative Christian men and communities.
The answer is always the same: Divorce the man because he’s a free loading dead beat.
It’s so sad how we as Christians try to twist the word to fit their situation. I know of a couple where the husband is adamant that sex was created for the man and it is sinful for her to receive any pleasure from it AND it is only biblical in the missionary position. In this day and age, how are we missing the mark??
Oh, dear. That’s awful! I agree–in this day and age, how can people still be stuck on such bad teaching?
Well said Sheila, I am often awed by your deep insight and humble instruction and advice you offer. Thank you!
Thank you, Jamie!
In theory I don’t disagree with you. You are saying if a woman has a medical/emotional illness that prevents normal marital intimacy, a loving husband would patiently support her as see desperately seeks healing from a serious illness that can profoundly cripple her marriage and deeply hurts her husband.
IMHO this is fine. I think the probl I have is that I believe many times sex is just not something that important to these women and so they think there husband should just deal with it and accept a limited sex life or he is a jerk. I do not question that they may have deep hurts but I do question how much a priority it is yo get healthy. Just we’ll I can’t so there.
I know you have shared your story and I know you were broken hearted over this challeng in your marriage. I sm sure many other women are as well. But seeing IRL the attitude a lot of women have towards their husbands I fear many think the men should just sing to their tune and they lack respect value and understanding of husbands needs.
So it concerns me to hear let her change at her own pace for many men that could mean when he’ll freezes over. If a woman had a cancer spreading through her body she would fight for healing with all her energy and with all urgency. We’ll limiting intimacy us a cancer in our marriages our churches and our testimony to the world and it is killing marriages families and the work God wants to do through his people.
Are they fighting and attacking their emotional/physical issues as seriously as cancer or do they just take a pull now and then and maybe go to chemo 2x a year but are really in no hurry because a loving husband should just understand.
Lastly, if you know you have past teauma or intimacy issues (I said IF you know – realize sometimes people have no idea till they are suddenly triggered when trying to intimate for the first time) if you know you have an obligation to disclose this before one goes too far down the path to marriage. I tell you I would be angry and bitter to find my husband had a serious porn problem that prevented him from being intimate with me yet did not disclose it. Then married me and rejected me in the marital bed. I know you may hurt but think about how much that hurts. He has a right to make a decision if he willing to potentially deal with a sexless marriage.
Now if don’t know or comes up later, that is for better or worse a lot if things happen in life and we stick with our partner as we work through it.
But a woman dies not have a free pass to minimize delay the urgency and seriousness of getting to the place of having normal marital relations.
Since everyone online always says well this was not me etc. got that. Did not think this reflects all wen in the known universe. I understand there are many who are broken and who deeply dearie healing so I am not address or accusing you. But I am speaking to many I know who think it is acceptable to dismiss and depriortize intimacy and their husbands are jerks for not dealing with it.
I do agree, TBG, that many women need that “push” to make love more frequently and with greater enthusiasm! Absolutely. And I like to think that my blog (and definitely my books!) point people there. And in the original post, too, I did give advice as to how the woman can embrace her sexuality while also working on her issues.
But there does some a point where we also need to say, “men can’t demand anything they want whenever they want.”
Unfortunately I can’t make every point in every article, and I think the sum total of my blog points people to what I think about how sex should be a priority in marriage! But as this one was already at 2,000 words, I really didn’t think I could offer more caveats. 🙂
But thank you for bringing up some balance!
I absolutely know that you teach this. You are always encouraging us to plan for, mentally prepare, and make intimacy an enjoyable priority.
I guess what I should have said is that other peoples experiences IRL probably colored how they read your post and caused such strong reactions because sometime IRL there is not a real effort. And when people don’t read carefully, they don’t see all of your points clearly.
Thanks as always for your work.
Sheila,
I feel like you’ve misrepresented my comment from the other post. I was not in any way saying sex is just for husbands or that wives should be sex slaves – my husband would be absolutely mortified if he thought that was being attributed to me/us!
Of course sex should be mutual!
I just think sometimes wives (or husbands) need to let go of hang ups they have and find joy in serving their spouse, instead of being so focused on self (“I don’t like this, so he should just accept it.”)
I was trying to suggest a way forward for the wife in question that didn’t involve maintaining control, but freely giving herself to her husband. My own experience has proven this to be a more peaceful way of resolving these situations. I discuss it with my husband, and then trust him to make a decision that honours our marriage. This builds intimacy, rather than saying “I am going to set all the boundaries, and if you love me you better not cross them!”
Sorry, just one more point to add – a husband wanting to touch his wife’s breasts is not some weird freaky thing.
Breasts are inherently sexual by God’s design. They may also serve the biological purpose of nursing the young for a short time, but they are sexual body parts for almost a woman’s whole life.
He is not asking for oral sex at the stroke of midnight every day while his wife does a naked hand stand.
I wonder why more pre-maritial counseling doesn’t guide couples to discuss what they consider ‘in/out’ of bounds. Maybe a trigger could be discussed, or what a man or woman would never want to do, or absolutely does desire on the table. Some may not know, but most people have an idea. Some might decide they don’t want the restrictions and make a more informed marital decision before the alter.
TBG and shelia. So you are telling women like myself we are hurtng are marrage because either we arent in the mood after working all then coming home and taking care of the all of are kids needs then just want to set down and take time for them selfs or in my case ever since I had a hysterctomy at the age of 26 I am not in the mood most times my husband is. So I am hurting my marrag necause I am not in the mood is what you are saying. I don’t know about your husband, but mine has told me he doesnt take it personal when I am not in the mood to have sex and he is. He say I rather make love to you once a week or once every other week and you be really into it. Then you just make love to me so I can get off. He has said thats not even my top twenty list of why i married you. I guess its fine when their are times I am in the mood and my husband is just to tired after a12 hours day of work and comes home and spending time with are daught and me, but I guess thats fine because his a man. Your whole posting makes me very sad. Because I think my husband and I have a great marrage. I think you and shelia need to think about what you are saying before you tell people thing like you both just said because its very hurtful and not true.
CJ, here’s what I would say: you may not be in the mood, but women CAN decide to enjoy sex even if we don’t think we’re in the mood. That’s what studies have repeatedly shown: it’s what a woman tells HERSELF that gets her in the mood, not what her husband does. If you are always saying to yourself, “I don’t want sex because I’m too tired/exhausted/busy”, then sex won’t be good. But if you tell yourself, “I want to feel close to my husband, I want to relax, I want to feel good tonight, so I am going to!”, then sex will tend to be quite good. It depends what message you give yourself. That’s what we’re saying. We’re saying, “take control back and tell yourself positive things and make sex into something that you anticipate, not something you dread.” That really is the key to a woman’s libido–deciding that you are going to see sex as something that helps you, not something you have to get through. And when you make that mental shift, sex can be awfully fun!
CJ – your case is not what she’s addressing. How is it hurtful if your marriage is working the way it is currently? Why be offended? I discovered that when I kept getting offended by something that didn’t affect me, I didn’t to address an underlying issue of why.
Sheila is addressing typical situations where a wife just quits being involved and the husband’s need for sex is not met, yet he cannot go outside the marriage for that. In that case there is a lack of mutual love or respect. In that case she needs to address what’s happening. I don’t think you can TRULY love someone and cut them off sexually (aside from medical situations).
Thanx to Sheila we know there’s a week my body just doesn’t have the hormones. So, we make it work. He’s getting older and doesn’t “need” it as much. Again, we make it work.
The point is the couple makes a mutual decision together. And they work on the issues because it shows love to the other person. Which appears to be what you and your husband have done.
Thanks, Sheila, for taking on this hard topic. I could not agree with you more.
You sound ridiculous. so you’re telling me that all of my specialist have told me that is completely normal how I feel toward sex and many women and men are not in the mood to have sex after working all day helping taken care of the house and kids. I would like you to give me the information that you are reading by psychologists or medical doctors so I could read this information and research it myself. Also, I think if I have sex with my husband when his the only one in the mood would hurt are marrage. i would start resent him and I know many of my friends that don’t think sex define their marrage and out of those friends some of them are men. Also if some of these women and men are going to use the bible to tell them how their sex life should be. let me tell you something in the being It was a punishment because man sin and because they sin they wear a shame of their naked body that God created for them. So they covered them selfs up and then God said go and prosper and if anybody looked it up in the dictionary prosper me also to reproduce offspring. If anyone would pick up a history book their are a lot of information about sex and how often and when they did it. In history they did not have sex every single day. A guy did not get sex on demand when he wanted, it all came with good timing and when they wanted to make a baby. This whole thing that a guy needs to have sex so his happy in his marrages is very new idea and is ridiculous and it was made up by christian men and some of you women went along with it and passing it down to other women and or children. if that’s the only way to make a husband happy in your marriage then he does not need to be married because that’s not unconditional love.
It’s appalling that there’s even that many men who have such a low view of women and still claim to be Christians. All you have to do is read Jesus’ interactions with women in the New Testament to see that He didn’t see us as lesser. I also read the part to my husband about the commenters who said waiting 6 weeks after childbirth was unreasonable because it wasn’t mutual consent. His response? “They must not love their wives.” And this is coming from a guy whose entire sex life with me has been plagued by vaginismus, being sick for an entire pregnancy, and doctor’s orders to wait even longer than those six weeks since I wasn’t healing properly. So he’s certainly been tested in this!
(I’ve also been referred to a specialist and/or physical therapist to try and take care of that stupid vaginismus, now that I’m no longer pregnant. So once I get up the courage to make the call, maybe I can finally figure out how to make this part of our marriage OK?)
Becky I agree with you. Their was a women that stood side by side with God and also preached his word a long beside him as a equal. I just can’t remenber her name
My wife wants to make love once a week but if we ever miss for whatever reason in reality it is rather less than once a week. I love my wife dearly and do not wish to hurt her and indeed if she ever fails to have an orgasm I feel as I have let her down and I am using her and so I do not enjoy it very much. Most of the time it is the most exciting experience for both of us (it actually seems to get better as we grow older – both in our 70s). All that said I long to do it a bit more frequently but I do not put pressure on her. Am I unreasonable to want to make love to her more frequently?
Hi!P I don’t think you are being unreasonable. This is want I know about guy from books and having four borthers and and a husband and having fews of of myhusband and I guys friend. We were just joking about this at a party last weeking. What I am going to tell you is want Guys have said to me as a teen or adult. It doesn’t matter if you are 15 or 80 Guys don’t need a reason to have sex. Most of the time their always in the mood. Women take sex more to hart they need to have a reason take have sex. I know some of the ladys on this sit want agree with me because if their christian ways. But I am sure if anyone could remember back in high school or college they would agree on how guys are. I am sure at your age with your life experince you could teach a thing or two on how a man should treat your wife in or out of bed and in reture how a women should treat a man.
According to Jesus himself, the trump verse of the Bible, a.k.a. “the greatest commandment” is pretty clear:
“YOU SHALL LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: YOU SHALL LOVE your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” ~ (Matthew 22:36-40)
The Bible is clear in letting us know what “LOVE” looks like — it should be pretty easy to figure out how we are to act toward our “neighbors” (including our spouse since they are our closest neighbor!):
“Love is patient
and kind;
love does not envy
or boast;
it is not arrogant
or rude.
IT DOES NOT INSIST ON ITS OWN WAY;
it is not irritable
or resentful;
it does not rejoice at wrongdoing,
but rejoices with the truth.
Love bears all things,
believes all things,
hopes all things,
endures all things.
Love never ends.”
~ (1 Corinthians 13:4-8)
And in Micah 6:8, “He has told you, O man, what is good, what He requires of you”:
do justice,
love kindness,
and walk humbly with your God.
We’re also reminded that whatever we do (or don’t do), it’s all done to the LORD.
~ (Matthew 25:40) and (Matthew 25:45)
For what it’s worth, marriage is so much better when you spend it attempting to out-give each other, trying to knock each other’s socks off, finding ways to bless and enjoy each other. Arguing or attempting to pressure, manipulate, guilt or condemn each other for the purpose of getting what you want is empty and miserable. Life is short. Spend it well, with no regrets!
Very well put! And I love that Micah verse, too; it’s one of the ones I stress in 9 Thoughts That Can Change Your Marriage; be right with God, and then pursue both mercy and justice. That’s what life is about! Loving each other and acting as we should. Trying to get someone to meet our desires–not part of it.
I think the key phrase in the ‘what would Jesus say’ portion of the post is “love each other … while we work on healing.” Discussions on this topic between husbands and wives seem to often end up with both taking an ‘absolute’ position and both with hurt feelings. He clumsily insists she needs to satisfy him, she insists she shouldn’t be forced to, and they are stalemated. He needs to be understanding of her … AND she needs to be moving toward healing and toward him. He shouldn’t institutionalize making her do something she’s uncomfortable with, and she shouldn’t institutionalize/make permanent denying his desires.
Yep! Absolutely! And growth is what Jesus wants for us, too. He never wants us stagnating, either.
Sheila I have noise that you don’t say anything about anyones else opinion useless they agree with you. Just because this lady or any lady doesn’t like her breast ir any other part of her body touch or doesn’t like to do certain sexual activities with her husband doesn’t mean she has been hurt in some way or she needs to over come what she doesn’t like.I truely can’t believe people pay to listen to your nonsense. I studied psychology for three years and part of that was for marriage counseling, in none of my books they never say just because you don’t like be touch,you don’t like to have sex that much or won’t do certain sexual activities with your husband or lover That their is something that either need to over come or heel from. I think all of you women that are saying that this lady need to heel or need to over come something she doesn’t like is your lack of knowledge talking. Sheila, I would like to know were you get all if your experts knowledge from to tell women their wrong for not wanting parts of their body to them selfs or not wanting to do certain sexual activities with her husbands. I think if some women wrote you and said.Sheila, i really want to put my fingers up my husband bottom but he won’t let me what should I do? you would give her a scriptures saying you need to respect your husbands boundaries, you should not want to put your husband in A uncomfortable situation. But once a women say she doesn’t like her husband touching something on her bodyor doesn’t like to do certain sexual activities, now their is something wrong with her something that needs to heal from or she needs to overcome what she doesn’t like. That is so wrong in so many way. Also for ever guy or women that is say their should be no parts of your body off limits or you should never deny your husband sex. Now ask your self what would you do if your daughter came up to you crying and telling you that her husband wants this or that his way and it make her feel uncomfortable. I honestly think that everone would think different
Sheila does address comments when people disagree with her. No, she doesn’t address every single comment, that would take too much time. So she is probably being judicious about which comments she spends her time answering. I honestly don’t know how to address your comment. You start out saying that people don’t need to heal or address any issues because that is what you learned in psychology and end with a scenario asking what someone would do if their daughter came to them upset about her husband wanting to do something that made her uncomfortable. That is exactly what this post is about. You obviously have never been hurt by someone, at least not in a way that would leave you scarred emotionally when it comes to sexual intimacy or physical touch. But there are plenty of women out there who have, myself included. We need healing. We need to deal with our issues. We are who Sheila is talking to. These scars vary greatly from woman to woman. Some were inappropriately touched as a child, some have been raped, some have been taught that sex is dirty and good girls don’t do that. Each hurt leaves the person facing it with a different type of pain. You said everyone is different so the way each person reacts is different. You should also go read the first post where Sheila addresses a woman who can’t stand to have her breasts touched. Sheila doesn’t just tell her to suck it up and deal with it. She tells the woman to examine why she doesn’t like her breasts touched and determine what ways she could address the reason so she does feel comfortable with her husband touching her breasts. But she also says that depending on the reason this woman may not overcome it and she need to talk with her husband about it. I have been reading this blog for over a year and have never seen Sheila say there is only one way to address an issue. She doesn’t always have the whole story when she answers questions like this. She gives a variety of options to try and address issues where abuse is the problem. There are no cookie cutter one size fits all answers and if you actually read this whole blog you would know that Sheila says that over and over.
I may be misreading what you said. Too many run on sentences, improper English, and poorly worded sentences to follow your train of thought at times.
cj2498, hey get off her back. she has spoken much truth over the years and has had a very positive impact on many marriages. if you don’t like it go troll the internet somewhere else! we don’t need/want your negative attitude.
Few things cheese me off more than people saying a wife should not “deprive” her husband for six weeks after giving birth. Her genitals need to HEAL. The guideline of six weeks is given because a woman’s genitalia can sustain a lot of trauma during the birthing process. It can take up to six weeks for those wounds to heal and avoid the risk of infection. A woman is not even supposed to use tampons to control the afterbirth flow because of the risk of infection. And not to mention, it hurts. A lot. I could barely walk for a week after having my first baby who weighed in at 9 pounds 5 ounces. I had a 2nd degree tear “down there” that required stitches. I was extremely swollen and sore. It took the entire six weeks for my body to heal enough to have sex. That was not my choice. It is just how it happened. It is a medical reality. After my second baby my recovery was a lot quicker. My body had already stretched those muscles and gave way more easily during birth. Every situation is different, every woman is different. The six week period of time after birth is a part of the process of having a child. It is often referred to as “the fourth trimester”. Couples ought to educate themselves about the after birth period and be prepared for it. Go shopping for the items a new mother might need during those six weeks. It will help her be more physically comfortable and help her body as it heals. The things I bought were giant cotton granny panties, a few packs of super absorbent maxi pads, a bottle of pure Witch Hazel and wipes pre-soaked in Witch Hazel, a squirt bottle (because even wiping can be painful), and some of that spray-on pain reliever (it didn’t really work for me, but it worked for others, so give it a try). Be prepared. Be understanding. It’s only six weeks, which in the grand scheme of things is not that much time. Or less if her body takes less time to heal. But it will go much faster if both the husband and wife go into it prepared.
It took me 10 weeks to heal”down there” after having my baby and being cut, called an episiotomy. She was only 5 pounds and I barely got her out. I don’t think the doctor did a good job and I also felt mutilated from the experience. We made love at the 8th week but I should have waited longer. A guy certainly wouldn’t appreciate being pressured to have sex if his penis was cut and stitched up!
No kidding…I also had a second degree tear with stitches, and it took me pretty much 12 weeks and 2 extra follow up visits with my doctor, because my tear didn’t heal right and it was still hurting even to walk! Thank God that he gave me a patient, understanding husband, because the one time we tried (after 8 weeks) was excruciating and I couldn’t do it. It’s really amazing that most women heal in only 6 weeks!
Also the hurt i was talking about was abuse not having a child which is completely different then what I was trying to say. What I and ithers are getting out of Sheila’s and others comments. Sheila is saying that a women doesn’t have the right to tell her husband,I don’t like you touching me their so don’t do it or if your husband whats certain sexual activities you should just do it because if you don’t you are showing him that you don’t truely love him. My husband doesn’t like his neck kissed, so i guess their is some hiden drama in his pass or something he needs to overcome. It can’t just be that he doesn’t like it. I have a couple of friends that I grow up with that i know very well and they won’t give their husbands oral sex. Because they don’t like doing it. So I guess in everyones opinion that she has either been hurt in their pass or thats she has a issue that she need to overcome. So it just can’t be that she doesn’t like something. What I was trying to say their are a lot of women and men that don’t like to be touch on certain part of their body or they won’t do certain sexual activities with their lover. This doesn’t mean that their is something wrong with them. I didn’t mean to imply that men and women haven’t been hurt as a child or as adult. But in all reality that is a small percentage of people and for those people that have been hurt like that need to go see professional help so they can move on with their whole lives not just in the bed room. If what I said hurt someone that has been hurt physically by someone I am sorry. But the rest of you need to understand that every living person has the right to have feeling without someone implying that they were hurt in the past physically or the need to change and over come their issues because people think that somethings wrong with them just because they don’t like certain things.
Sheila, I truly think you understand Jesus’ heart for marriage, women, and unity. I hope that in the midst of this ridiculous feedback you can be encouraged in the great work that you are doing. Your ministry matters. Actually, even the fact that you have people criticizing you in such a way is a fairly strong indication that you’re doing the right thing and speaking out about things that need to brought into the light. It’s so sad that some men truly believe that they have authority over their wives bodies, which they take to mean that a wife cannot refuse them for sex. I don’t understand how sex could be enjoyable if your spouse was not enjoying it. My husband finds that sex is most enjoyable for him when I’m really enjoying it. This looks to me like abuse. Abusers get a kick out of feeling like they have power over another human. A power-hungry, abusive husband is not at all Christ-like. As someone who is trained in Biblical Exegesis I am constantly astounded that people attempt to back up their actions in this area with scripture! When Paul speaks of mutual love and mutual submission his writing is beautifully balanced. Paul says that a wife has authority over her husband’s body and that a husband has authority over his wife’s body. If both have authority over each others body then who really has the authority over the other? Also, the word we have translated as ‘authority’. Why do we think we know exactly what that word means and exactly what it looks like at face value? I cannot stress how hugely radical Jesus’ teachings and the New Testament were in their time regarding human relationships. Nobody would ever say that a wife had authority over her husband’s body! The patriarchal hierarchical structure in place meant women were owned by men. To completely ignore this sentence and how empowering and radical it was is to be extremely unfaithful to the Biblical text. Sheila – I think you do a good job at exploring what a healthy and godly marriage looks like in our time and context. Good for you.
Thank you so much, Ruthie! And I agree–the balance that Paul writes about is really beautiful, and very radical. The fact that some are trying to erase that is really sad, and more a sign of their own hearts than anyone else’s.
Wow, there’s a lot of negativity out there! Sheila, thank you so much for your balanced and Biblical approach to these matters!
I apologize in advance for my rambling, but I am pretty desperate at this point.
I was 36 and my husband was 38 when we married. I waited for marriage but he had many partners before. For me sex was extremely painful for the first 1.5 years (a 12 on a scale of 1-10) and I bled after intercourse. First I thought it was because I waited so long. Then I went to a dr. to see if I had an actual medical problem, but she found no issues. From reading other articles, I believe that I may have been dealing with vaginismus and will seek treatment for that asap to see if this will help. Now that we have been married for 3 years, the sex is usually not as painful unless it has been a while since our last encounter (he has traveled a lot for work this year). However, it still really sucks and I get almost NOTHING out of it. I count sex as the single biggest disappointment of epic proportions in my life, and I have dealt with a lot of personal tragedy and disappointment so this is not an overstatement. I am trying not to be angry at all those church people who preached about how wonderful married sex is and that it is worth waiting for. I am sorry that I don’t feel that it was worth waiting for especially such a long, long time because I don’t feel that it’s worth doing at all. I feel cheated and lied to. The only satisfaction I get out of it is that my husband seems to be somewhat satisfied and at least orgasms every time. Sometimes I ask him to touch me differently (gently, not so hard), but his response is usually short lived and doesn’t help me in arousal. I’m afraid that his past experience with other women (whether they “faked it” or not) has trained him to relate sexually in a certain way because “it worked before.” I once tried to explain that what worked on other women may not work on me because everyone is different. He got upset because I think he thought I was questioning his sexual prowess. That shut me down.
I was raised in the church and have stayed involved, and I think I had a pretty healthy attitude about married sex—no crazy ideas that it is wrong or dirty. I am in great shape and am comfortable with my body and being naked with my husband. I have boxes of lingere and want to please my husband, but I’m sure that our sex life is not the best he has had and he is always hinting that he wants oral sex. I don’t think oral sex is inherently bad or sinful. I think these and other activities are perfectly fine if BOTH people are comfortable with them. I just personally find the thought of having to put my mouth there revolting. On top of this, my husband arrived to our marriage with herpes for which he reluctantly takes medication to help protect me from contracting the virus. However, the meds are not 100% effective and I am also concerned about the possibility of getting herpes on my mouth for the world to see. I have explained this to him, but he keeps hinting about it anyway. I guess my frustration is that for me is that despite all those years of being faithful before marriage, sex already really, REALLY sucks. I am trying to make it better for both of us by reading books and getting educated and trying new things, but I don’t know how to get passed the oral sex inhibition.
All of this has been extremely distressing to me for these 3 years and I have no one to relate to or talk about any of this. I am very disappointed and feel like a disappointment to my husband. I am thankful for your site which allows such frank discussions about these sensitive issues from a Christian perspective and will get some of the books recommended about these issues. Any insight is appreciated.
Although your Bible isn’t the best translation, I agree with this article pretty much. I believe in the husband being fair and putting his wife’s needs ahead of his own, and hate how selfish people overlook sexual trauma and other things.
Amen Sheila! Thank you for addressing this! Keep up the good work! Thank you for not
keeping silent…!
You’re so welcome! It really is a passion of mine to help people see logically how the things that they’ve been taught or the things that they say really don’t fit with Scripture sometimes.
I’m in the opposite boat. My husband is older and doesn’t desire sex and when he does, it just for a release of tension that took forever to build up. I’m talking once or twice a month….. I want to be intimate with him 3 times a week. I try to respect him encourage him and have expressed repeatedly how I feel. But it doesn’t change. I struggle with thoughts of cheating too. I would love to be held by a man that would ravish me……. But I know that’s my sinful flesh… I am at a loss and wish I could remove the nerves from my body and minds that make me crave intimacy.
Alchemist wrote about a book called “Each for the Other”. I can’t find anything with that title. Does anyone know who the author is?
I found it! I didn’t look far enough. I believe it’s called “Each for the Other: Marriage As It’s Meant to Be” by Bryan and Kathy Chapell.
Thank you! I can’t stop saying thank you! When men/husband can not see why “respecting” their wife in and out of the bedroom is vital……. open opportunity for the enemy! This theology isn’t different from being a muslim! We as Christians must stop being selfish and self-gratifing and stop accept lies as truth because this does not Glorify Jesus! You become your own idol!
Exactly!
So I’m a little late in the discussion, but the idea that someone can never ever deny their spouse sex or certain sexual acts is repulsive, it’s also rape. Yeah, I used the R word! Rape means to have sex without consent or against the will of another person, there is also coercion rape, which is when tactics like pressure or emotional force are used to get someone to agree to sex. It can be threats like “I’ll leave you if you don’t sleep with me.” Or pressure “Well, the Bible says this…”
And exactly how far could a husband take this idea? Sex every morning and every night because you belong to me? When does it become unacceptable?
And why should the person with a low drive be forced to try and keep up with the high drive person? Why not compromise? “Oh, you want it 3 times a week and I want it 1 time? How about we have it twice a week?”
Yes, not being in the mood in a valid reason, and your significant other should respect you enough to back off and ask again later, or wait until YOU ask them. However, you should make an effort some of the time when you don’t feel in the mood.
I’ve read stories of couples who only have sex once a month, every six months or never, this is not what I’m talking about. If that’s your situation, try therapy, the doctor, or natural methods. And if the low drive spouse is completely unwilling to try any of these things then I feel like divorce is the best choice.
But this also goes both ways: if someone is constantly being nagged, guilt tripped or threatened into sex then they should get out as soon as possible, no one should have to live like that.
(I hope no one is terribly upset I mentioned divorce, sorry)
I would also so like to add that I don’t think God intended for a husband’s and wife’s sex drive to be so different. I think with things like porn, health problems, sexual abuse things are not as they should be. Sugar, toxins in the air, TV, our constant go go life…
It’s funny how I see a lot of men talking about how they want more sex from their wives because I read a study somewhere, I forget where, that said 70% of men won’t help their wives finish during sex. What? And this coupled with most women not being vocal about not having orgasms it gets really bad.
I’m not saying it’s completely true, but it wouldn’t surprise me. I do think men and women are different but yes, men are emotional and women are visual, just at different levels. If a husband isn’t connecting emotionally with his wife during sex I think something is wrong…
Great thoughts, Anna! And I’ve been thinking along these lines lately, too: ” I read a study somewhere, I forget where, that said 70% of men won’t help their wives finish during sex. What? And this coupled with most women not being vocal about not having orgasms it gets really bad.”
I think I’m going to write more about that! It is a bad dynamic, and it happens A LOT.
I wish you luck if you decide to write about it. 🙂
I am a man and I’ve been married for almost twenty years. Those men that think they control their wives bodies are disgusting. I take great pleasure in my wife and she in me. But do I control her, no. I find my greatest pleasure when my wife has great pleasure in me.
I’ve thought this from before I was even married, but a husbands duty in the bedroom is to do whatever it takes to give his wife the utmost pleasure possible. A guy is always going to orgasm, that is just how we are built not so with our wives. So my job is to give her pleasure and I have found that I enjoy my self when she enjoys herself. Any man who takes and does not give in the bedroom needs to thing long and hard about his relationship with his wife.
I am so glad you have the courage to talk about the hard
As a man, I have to say the attitude of many men is just nonsensical to me. Why would you not want to give to your wife? Why would you want your wife to experience sex like a punishment? Now I think there are times a wife should be willing to have sex even if she doesn’t immediately feel like it, but the man should strive to make it a joy for her. I give to my wife about as much as I can. I love to buy her small gifts or do little things for her. I post regularly on my Facebook about my great love for her. I also host a group on Facebook for men who are Christian and are married, engaged, dating, or hoping to date and marry. The purpose is to help us learn to be good husbands to our wives.
Some men. It really makes no sense.
Hi, PLEASE, translate your books to spanish and sale them in México.