On Friday Johnny from Shine FM in Edmonton sent me a tweet: “You wanna call in to the morning show to talk about Ashley Madison?” I couldn’t call on Friday but I did yesterday, and hosts Johnny and Hollie and I chatted about this huge, honking mess.
Because it is a huge mess, isn’t it? Tens of millions of Ashley Madison users’ data is now online. You can even search email addresses yourself (though I won’t link to where). Thousands of U.S. government emails are listed. Josh Duggar got found out (I blogged about that last week). And he won’t be the last high profile user, either.
So I’ve been thinking about this whole mess for a few days, and I thought I’d throw out ten random thoughts, in no particular order.
2 Thoughts About the Online World
1. Stuff online isn’t secret
If you buy erotica on your Kindle, it can be discovered. If you use porn, your history is never really gone. If you sign up for something like this, don’t expect you won’t get found out. If you text or email nude pictures of yourself–don’t be surprised if they surface somewhere.
Maybe if we realized this we’d all be smarter–and we’d feel less temptation.
2. Giving into temptation is so much easier in the internet age.
Because isn’t that the main problem? In the internet age, it’s much harder to withstand temptation because options are available instantaneously and seemingly anonymously. A guy (or a woman) who may never, ever stray may just be having a bad weekend alone, and may be surfing the internet when they shouldn’t be. Twenty years ago this kind of sin didn’t exist. I’m sure the vast majority of the guys who signed up for Ashley Madison would never try to pick up a woman in a bar in person. They’d never buy porn in person, if they had to look someone in the eye and ask for the magazine. But today it’s so easy!
And that’s why we need to take some of that temptation away. I know sin is ultimately a heart issue, but I also do believe in putting up roadblocks to temptation. It’s just plain smart. And so I completely support having Covenant Eyes on you computer, even just as an accountability tool (and not as a filtering tool). That way you know that if you wander onto a bad site, someone’s going to know about it. Boom! Temptation’s gone, because it’s no longer anonymous.
3 Thoughts About Guys & Ashley Madison
3. A mistake made in a moment should not define a relationship.
All of us mess up. And some of us are going to mess up sexually. But one mistake should not define a relationship.
There were 30,000,000 or so users signed up to Ashley Madison. That’s a lot. But most of them did not actually cheat. They flirted with the idea, but they didn’t follow through.
I do believe that there is a big difference between someone who is tempted and who occasionally falls and someone who is actively seeking out ways to fall. A guy who binges on porn for a weekend after being clean for four years is in a totally different category than a guy who uses it most nights and says, “It’s harmless and it’s my right.”
Similarly, a guy who signs up for Ashley Madison is quite different from a guy who has several one night stands and who is texting several women. One is likely a sex addict; one is simply struggling.
If your husband has fallen, figure out which category he belongs in. If he’s made a mistake and has fallen, then work through that hurt. Allow yourself to feel the weight of it before you try to forgive, or else the forgiveness may not be real. But then fight on the same side as your husband against the porn and the sexualized culture. Don’t fight your husband. Be his ally.
If your husband instead refuses to confess, refuses to admit it, or refuses to deal with it, then you have an issue and you need some help. But, please, don’t wreck a marriage over one mess up. Don’t let darkness win.
4. Avoid the temptation to think, “all men are pigs”
With this in the media, it’s so easy for women to think, “all men are pigs.”
But most guys didn’t go anywhere near it. Most guys won’t have affairs. Don’t let the news cloud your view of all men, and especially your own husband who may have struggles in the past. Don’t blame him for the sins of others.
I know many will say, “women cheat too!” And preliminary reports were that 15-20% of accounts were female. But news is out today that many of those female accounts were actually fake accounts set up by Ashley Madison to make it seem like there were more women on the site than there were in reality.
This doesn’t mean that women are saints; it only means we have different weaknesses. I think men are more likely to struggle with weaknesses in an online, visual world. Shaunti Feldhahn explained that well here.
5. Most of these guys did not have sex with anyone else.
Remember: many of these accounts were set up by guys on the spur of the moment as they explored the possibility of an affair. Most of these men, though, did not follow through (especially since there were so few women actually on the site!) So just because a guy was listed there does not mean that he cheated. This doesn’t mean that he didn’t do anything wrong; just that we shouldn’t jump to conclusions.
5 Thoughts About What The Ashley Madison Scandal Tells Us About Sex
6. Do we give the impression that “marriage is where sex goes to die?”
Look at the motto for Ashley Madison to begin with: “Life is short. Have an affair.” In other words, the affair makes life more fun. Does that mean that our culture tends to think that married sex is really boring?
Yeah, I think it does. Which is awfully odd because the people with the best sex life are routinely found to be people who are married! The hooking up culture really doesn’t result in great sex–especially for women.
But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t a lot of couples for whom sex has pretty much died. And if we don’t stress this part of our relationship, our marriage is going to get really boring. So if sex is boring–do something about it! Don’t settle! And if we give our kids the impression that we have no sex life because we’re married, how in the world are we going to convince them to wait until they’re married?
7. Do we have the idea that there’s “sacred sex” and then there’s “fun sex”?
I don’t mean to insinuate, though, that if your husband used Ashley Madison it’s your fault, just like I didn’t mean to blame Anna Duggar in Friday’s post. I actually wonder something about Josh (and about other men that use Ashley Madison): have we given the impression that there is such a thing as “sacred sex”, which is missionary position and entirely clinical and passion-less, and then there’s fun sex, which can’t possibly be done in marriage?
I think there’s a stream of Christianity that inadvertently does this. If we stress purity in the wrong way, we can give the impression that sex itself is the enemy–that sexual feelings or sexual exploration are to be fought against at all costs. And this can easily make us into prudes. I don’t mean just women are prudes–I mean men, too, may think in terms of “I could NEVER do this with my wife! She’s too pure!” So they turn elsewhere for an outlet.
8. Exploring is good!
We’ve got to reclaim the idea that adventure and passion ARE pure. That losing oneself in passion is actually far closer to godliness than staying perfectly in control.
Spicing up your marriage and having more fun is a good thing.
9. If you feel distance, talk about it.
Nobody wakes up one day and decides to have an affair. Distance builds over time. And even if there’s no open hostility, you tend to feel it. You know there are certain subjects that you can’t talk about with your husband.
That’s a bad sign. If you sense distance–even if you don’t think your husband is doing anything wrong–work to fix it. Work to reclaim that feeling of oneness, of being on the same team.
If you sense a problem, just do not ignore it.
10. Life is short. Have an affair–with your husband!
Let’s have all that excitement and exploration and adventure–with our husbands! Let’s pursue him. Let’s be a little bit “naughty”. Not because we’re scared he’ll stray, but because why on earth would you want to miss out on something so great that marriage has to offer?
Get frisky tonight! If there’s nothing else that the Ashley Madison scandal taught me, it’s that too many people are wasting their lives in pointless pursuits when the best is right in front of them. I don’t want to miss out on that, and I hope you won’t either.
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wonderfully written and unfortunately so true. I especially like number 10, should not be that hard if you truly love your husband and get what God intended a Christ centered intimate married relationship to look like. keep preaching it girl!
Thanks, Scott! And I agree–we should all be emphasizing #10!
I don’t think that’s fair to say. There is a big difference between loving your spouse, and being IN LOVE with your spouse. I truly love my spouse, but when two people just don’t think of each other “like that,” it is easy to look for passion somewhere else. My husband has always felt like family – even when we were dating – but never like my lover. When we first got married, I had a really strong sex drive. He was more interested in things that he saw as more important. We still have sex when we see each other, but I’m always left wondering why I even bothered, and thinking, “why did I want to do that, again.?” In my head, I imagine it being much better. And I have felt passion for other men (only had sex with my husband, though.) but sex with my husband just feels like sex with my dad or brother. It is so weird.
And just because people are satisfied with their sex life does not mean they are actually having great – or even good – sex. I know someone who is getting divorced because her husband left her and she didn’t realize until the marriage ended that the sex was sooo crappy. I think a lot of women are just satisfied with the emotional connection, and the men who like it, like it no matter what, so you really CAN’T assess the quality of married sex. Sure, it’s bound to be a bit more frequent and you are doing the right thing so you don’t have feelings of guilt or sin, but you can’t say that the sex is actually GOOD, just that the people involved THINK it’s good. Which, as I now know, can just be the thoughts of the misguided and naive.
So, I’m going to have to call this out as a “pat” answer: “have an affair with your husband.” The people who are having affairs are doing it for a reason. Especially women. Something is missing in the marriage and you can’t just pretend it into existence. And you can’t give someone step-by-step instructions on how to love you, either, or how to act like they are attracted to you. They either do, or they don’t. They are, or they aren’t. I’m not saying anyone should leave their marriages in search of emotional fulfillment in an affair, I’m saying it’s more realistic to just say, “suck it up and do what’s right. Your happiness and fulfillment will likely never come, but what matters most is that you follow God and you are faithful.”
Hi KTW,
Thanks for your thoughtful response, and I can see that you’re really frustrated right now in your marriage. I totally agree with your conclusion–that we should be faithful no matter what.
But just looking at this comment and at the other one you wrote, I’m a little worried. I hope this doesn’t sound harsh, but it really does sound like you’re filling your mind with dissatisfaction. You’ve never been turned on by your husband; you only feel passion for other men; people can think they’re having good sex when they’re really not; something is missing in your marriage; you wonder why you bother.
I can totally understand feeling frustrated with your sex life. I think we’ve ALL been there at times. And let me tell you: the VAST MAJORITY of women do not feel those butterflies or the intense “you’re so hot” reaction to their husbands that we may to other men. That’s actually physiological. Those infatuation type feelings (the heart racing; the electricity when he touches you; the flip flops when you see him without a shirt) only last, on average, 18 months. Then they’re gone, no matter how good looking the guy is.
We get used to him. And then he seems “comfortable”, not “hot”.
So I think most people deal with this, though probably not to the same extent.
But the question becomes: what are you going to do about it? Because the more you focus on what you don’t have, the more you’re going to realize what you don’t have. But the more you throw yourself into “having an affair with your spouse”, so to speak, the more you’ll realize you do have. If your spouse isn’t interested, then you deal with that. You figure out the root cause; you sit down and talk about it; you seek out a counsellor. Absolutely, for sure! If sex isn’t turning your crank, you figure out new things to try, or new positions. You don’t let it become stale.
But our biggest sex organ is our brain, and the more you tell yourself this negative stuff, the harder it will be. I’m not saying to kid yourself that everything’s great. It’s fine to say: “I love you and I think our sex life could be so much better! Let’s look at what we can do together.” But that’s an entirely different thing than saying, “My husband doesn’t turn me on and he never has.” I’m not saying lie to yourself; I’m just saying that part of creating a close, happy marriage is choosing what thoughts we’re going to entertain.
I hope that makes sense. But if he’s picked up on the fact that you don’t think you’ll ever be attracted to him, then perhaps that’s a reason that your marriage has no passion?
Many people looking for passion do have affairs. But I think people give up. You CAN find passion again. You really can. But it starts with deciding what thoughts you’re going to entertain, and then figuring out a game plan to make sex great again. That takes communication and hard work, yes, and if you have a husband that isn’t interested, then it may take some serious intervention to get to the root of the problem. But for most couples, there’s a lot that we can do, even if we’re in a rut. We just have to start focusing on the right things!
Oh, very well said Sheila. You are SO encouraging (and wise) in your words. My hope is that KTW will receive your message thoughtfully and try working on the passion in her marriage. 🙂
Its been 7months since we got married.I tried to initiate sex many times but every time it turned worse.it seems like he doesn’t enjoy it.he doesn’t watch porn.he is not attracted to me.doesn’t show any love and affection.i think he doesn’t love me anymore because his relationship with his sisters got worse since he got married to me.my sisters in law stopped talking to him ever since our marriage was fixed.i don’t feel like a wife.he was my best friend.now I feel like a roomie.I feel so horrible.m even thinking of divorce.I love him so much.but he doesn’t even touch or kiss me passionately..now I don’t even like when he tries to kiss me.
I would love to have an “affair” with my husband. But I have a 9 month old attached to me 24/7 and hubby isn’t interested anyways. Yes, I’ve read all the tips and hints about how to “get your man’s attention again!” from a million different sources. Its all bull. I’ve tried it all. No dice. What’s a girl to do when the hubby is just too LAZY!!???? This has been going on since we married 9 years ago.
I feel your pain, Angie. That’s why I’ve told my husband that I’m not going to willingly give him any kids until our sex life is on track. He’s a logically minded person, like I am, so I started keeping a chart in order to keep us from fighting about when the last time was.
And you are SOOOO right about it all being bull!! I have tried it all, too. At some point, I gave up and had to just quit caring as much. When you live with an a-typical man in an a-typical marriage, all of the stupid advice can be pretty insulting, huh?
Hi Angie, I have a series on that here that may help. You’re right–when you’re the one with the higher sex drive, it is really tough. So sorry you’re going through this!
Yeah, read all those too. He works hard to provide, doesn’t do porn (in fact he even admitted that porn doesn’t even turn him on that much), doctor put him on testosterone shots, I tell him how good he is in bed, we’ve gone through counseling 2 years worth, I’ve tried to communicate my needs in a loving way, I’ve tried communicating in ugly ways too. He is just not interested. He has a good time when we do manage to come together, but it’s very quick and he doesn’t even orgasm every time. He has admitted that laziness is the biggest stumbling block for him when it comes to ALL aspects of our relationship. I just don’t get it. Almost 11 years of being together and HE still curls MY toes!!! I guess I need to fight to go back to counseling. We just moved out of state, so maybe we can find a better counselor. Good luck KTW- and yes, the typical advice is very insulting and very hurtful.
Angie, that is concerning. I wonder if part of it is not being affirmed as a child–not being able to have one’s own will or agency? I see a lot of laziness that is actually rooted in not having a parent figure who called you out and praised you for who you were. The lack of that can paralyze a person. They’re afraid to do anything because they don’t think they can. So people think they’re just lazy, when really it’s that they’re stuck emotionally. I don’t mean to get all psychological, but I’d actually encourage him to seek out a counselor. God doesn’t want us stuck, and I know people who have overcome this. Really!
OMG Sheila!!! His parents are sooooo like that! He never got told “I’m proud of you.” I’ve made sure I tell him all the time I’m proud of him and thankful for him but I guess that will never be enough, huh? Should I stop saying anything that could be construed as critical, even if it’s helpful criticism? At least until we get to counseling again, which I told him he needed for himself and us. Which was probably taken as a criticism as well, geez. Thanks for helping me Sheila, I really appreciate your time!
I really think it likely stems from needing that affirmation from his dad–and you can’t really give that to him. I don’t think you being truthful is necessarily hurtful. I just think that he needs to go through some counseling and come to terms with not being affirmed. Leanne Payne has written some great books on this, though she looks at how it relates specifically to homosexuality. But that not being told “you can try at this. You can do this,” makes so many people paralyzed. I’d talk to someone who’s a really good counselor, because he likely just needs some serious prayer and to see the roots of it. People can totally be healed from this–they totally can. It just takes some hard work.
Sheila this is a wonderful list, relevant to any breaking scandal or current event that triggers the same shock waves. Thank you for providing a level-headed, encouraging response.
You’re so welcome, Hannah!
Very good article. Just FYI, since Ashley Madison did not verify email addresses, many of these names were entered by third parties, and many were entered by Ashley Madison executives. And some people signed up for accounts to do private surveillance. So be careful jumping to conclusions. There have already been at least two suicides over this. This is in addition to what this article points out, that many/most of these people never had an affair.
Absolutely! Thanks for reiterating that.
It seems that satisfaction in marriage and sex has a lot to do with understanding the basis of biblical marriage: sacrifice. Marriage represents Jesus’ love for us, and that He gave His life for us; marriage is really giving your life for another person. When we live for what someone else can do to make us happy, we end up unhappy. When we understand sex from a worldly selfish perspective, we usually end up disappointed because we are looking for a fantasy that may not even exist. It took close to 20 years to understand that sex is spiritual, and 30 to realize the more you give, sacrifice, and serve your spouse the more you receive. For those who do not desire or have good sex with their spouse, there may be a medical or physical problem, but it is a spiritual issue above all. If our heart is right with God and our spouse, we will desire to have great sex and passion with our spouse. That means personal prayer, praying together, worshiping together, building spiritual and emotional intimacy that leads to physical intimacy.
Great thoughts! Thank you.
Thank you for writing about this. When something gets blasted all over the media I think we can quickly forget that what we’re seeing is one very tiny piece of a much bigger picture. There is more to the story that we may never get to know so we have to be careful to take everything with a huge grain of salt, and ask the Lord how he would have us pray for the situation. The perspectives God can reveal can be pretty surprising.
I had an interesting thought about the Josh Duggar situation. In the type of circle he grew up in, there are meanings attached to certain words and phrases that may not necessarily be the same for us in “mainstream” society. Their definitions can be very different. For example, when Josh confessed to being “unfaithful” to his wife, he may have only been referencing his pornography addiction, because in his culture, viewing pornography equals being unfaithful. He may not have had to have sex with another woman to apply the word “unfaithful” to himself in his culture. So understanding that, I think we need to be careful to not jump to conclusions. What he did was inexcusable, yes. I am not saying it isn’t. What he did was wrong. Just presenting a little context that might be helpful in understanding things.
Yes, absolutely. And we really have no idea what Josh actually did (and it really shouldn’t matter). I was happy, though, that he didn’t try to sugar coat it. I think that shows hope.
Yup. Accepting personal responsibility is the first step on the road to recovery.
Good points. I have always told myself that I could, with God’s grace and much counseling, get over infidelity if faced with it – assuming my husband is repentant.
But, I would have a hard time forgiving my husband if he signed up for Ashley Madison and had an affair. I understand falling in a moment of temptation to the family friend or co-worker – maybe your marriage was struggling, maybe you had a mid life crisis, etc, etc. As hard as that is, I get it. But, seeking out an affair is an entirely different thing. That would be hard to get over. Bravo for the women who do.
Praying for these families. This leak exposed and embarrassed the website users, but also their families- and it hurts me to know that families are having to face this in a public manner.
Well said, Sheila. #7 is actually a psychological concept first described by Freud, the so-called Madonna–whore complex. “Men with this complex desire a sexual partner who has been degraded (the whore) while they cannot desire the respected partner (the Madonna).” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna%E2%80%93whore_complex Even in the media, relationships are often portrayed that way — you have the fun, wild, short affairs, and then the tired old long-term relationships. We really gotta make sure we remind ourselves not to listen to this garbage, but to listen to God.
Yep! Absolutely. And I do think that some elements of Christianity may, unfortunately, perpetuate this. We really need to stop!
There’s a line in the article that really struck me, about how a mistake in the relationship should not define it. All of us mess up.
But my mess-ups do define my marriage because my wife lets them. She doesn’t really let me make mistakes, holds grudges for them, and responds the most when I’m spending lots of money or “rescuing” her.
More to the point, I’ve never made serious mistakes, or at least nothing like cheating or violence or theft. But every little mistake is magnified and held against me. Our sex life essentially vanished before we were even married.
I love her. That’s why I’ve gone to therapy, counseling, I’ve read books and joined forums, and now I have a counselor who is brilliant and I’m learning to love myself and not let myself be treated like this. I’ve given all the credit I have left and now I’m in enormous financial trouble, no idea how much she owes because she won’t talk to me about it.
In the meantime, my wife has refused any kind of help, or even an effort at it. I get that help can be scary, but we can’t have a conversation like adults about important stuff together, so I think a mediator would be best, and her response is that I’m trying to change her which means I don’t love her.
I think it’s just time for me to finally get the guts up to call it quits. I say this here now because she thinks, or at least says so, that it’s all about sex. But I don’t pressure her for sex. I used to think it was the problem but it didn’t take much counseling to figure out that’s not what I want but more like a side effect of real love. She thinks she loves me. But there’s nothing I wouldn’t do for her, and so much she’s been unwilling to do for me or the marriage that I don’t even try anymore and in the meantime I’m a mess.
I’m actually my best self ever, which is the funny thing. I’ve learned more about who I am, being assertive, being observant, not assuming, and there’s this person I have to support and pretend I’m OK with all the time and it’s been two years now and I won’t do this another year.
Ladies if your husband isn’t interested in having sex with you…I guarantee he is satisfying himself with porn.
Men want sex. The longer they have been looking at porn the less they desire their wives…