Christians are in a Culture War. And I don’t think we’re doing a particularly good job.
Yesterday was my birthday, and I posted about the Duggar abuse scandal. Which got read a lot. And which kind of consumed the day (I didn’t even get cake).
So perhaps I’m just feeling a little contemplative today, but I have a bunch of thoughts in my brain that I thought I should try to get down. I hope they make sense, but after a weekend of watching many Christians defend the Duggars’ decision not to immediately remove Josh from the home; saying “the girls are absolutely fine! You can tell because we see that on TV!”; and “it was only touching; it wouldn’t have done that much harm”, I guess I’m just a little restless and rather sad.
So I want to give my hypothesis of what’s happening in our culture.
Western culture, and especially American culture, used to be quite Christian.
We had Christian values, even if not everybody believed. And, to a large extent, people felt that our country was blessed because the country reflected Christ’s values.
Then everything went off the rails starting in the 1960s. The family was attacked. Marriage was attacked. The church was attacked.
So we went into defense mode. Every time we were attacked we’d fight. We decided that we wanted to stand out from the world, so we created more and more rigid standards of what it means to be a Christian–even more rigid than in the 1950s (take purity, for example. No one was arguing for no hand holding until you’re engaged in the 1950s. This is a new cultural phenomenon).
And we treat this like a war. We’ve decided there are two sides: Us and Them.
We retreat into our own sides on the internet and in news media. Whenever one of ours is attacked, we fight back, regardless of the merits of the situation. We can’t give ground, after all, or we very well may lose everything.
Right now Christians are waiting, scared, for the Supreme Court decision on gay marriage to come down. What will happen if they allow gay marriage everywhere? What will we do?
And I guess I’m just afraid that we’ve gone a bit off track and we’re losing the bigger picture.
Our main job on this earth is not to fight a culture war. Our main job is to reach people for Jesus and to show Christ’s love to a hurting world.
Our main job is not to fight a culture war. It is to show Christ’s love to a hurting world. Click To TweetI live in a country (Canada) where the Supreme Court legalized gay marriage years ago, despite the votes of elected officials. I was despondent when that decision came down, and I wrote articles in papers before the decision talking about why traditional marriage matters. Because it does. And once you allow gay marriage, a whole lot of other consequences follow. Marriage becomes about a lifestyle choice, making it less likely people will marry. Adoption issues become messed up. Custody issues become messed up. It’s just plain sad.
But you know what? Our laws simply reflect our culture, and our culture is already there. And sometimes a country gets what it deserves.
That isn’t to say that we shouldn’t care; it’s only to say that even if the Supreme Court doesn’t allow gay marriage, I’m not sure what difference that will make because people’s hearts are no longer for traditional commitment. They just aren’t. And your laws reflect your culture, so within 10-15 years you will have gay marriage anyway, regardless of what the Supreme Court says.
Abortion is a separate issue; we’re winning there. But that’s because both issues have as an undercurrent justice and human rights. The world sees gay marriage as a human right and as a justice issue (gays should not be discriminated against). They see abortion in a similar way, because ultrasounds have let us see that this is a child. And so people are against abortion but for gay marriage, and in their minds that’s perfectly consistent.
So what do we do?
We can keep fighting, pointing out every bit of liberal hypocrisy to show that we’re right. We can keep fighting this war and funding this war and try to keep our ground.
And there likely is need for this. I think of it as a day job–we need professional Christians to fight the culture war on a 9-5 basis. But then let’s get back to our real life with real neighbours and real friends and real individuals.
Fighting the Culture War can’t be our main strategy or our main effort for evangelism, because it can backfire.
First, because we think in terms of strategy rather than in terms of Truth, Compassion, and Love. Sometimes strategically it seems better to slam your opponent rather than to admit that your Culture War soldier may have been off base. But that’s not standing for Truth.
But it’s not just because it can turn people away from God; it’s also because it blinds us to our own mission.
I had a woman say this on Facebook yesterday about my post about the Duggars: “I totally agree with your post, but I don’t see how saying all of this will show non-Christians we’re reasonable or that we love the victims. The media would never report this anyway. They just like to play “gotcha”.
That’s the problem. We think the Christian life is lived out in the Culture War, and it’s not. The Culture War is important, but it is not our Christian life, nor should it be our main focus. She was saying, “talking about this won’t matter; it’s only what the media reports that matters.” But that’s not true at all!
Let me give you one example: both of my girls have large numbers of non-Christian friends on Facebook–from work, from university, etc. And they saw non-Christians saying things like, “The Duggar scandal proves God doesn’t exist”, or much worse things. So the girls posted Rebecca’s article that was critical of the Duggars, and talked about how appalled they were, too. And their friends understood, and many messaged them and said, “I’m so glad you said that. I thought all Christians were excusing the Duggar parents. I’m so glad to know that’s not true. Thank you for standing up for what’s right.”
In fact, in the whole hubbub, the girls were attacked by Christians and comforted by non-Christians. Katie, especially, had non-believers messaging her and saying, “thank you for standing strong. I’m sorry for all the hate you’re getting, but we’re with you. You’re a great person.”
The media didn’t share Rebecca’s Duggar article. The media didn’t say, “some Christians aren’t supporting the Duggars.” But these people got the message because the girls said it themselves.
I’m afraid that we have put ourselves in such enclaves that most of us don’t have non-Christian friends, so the only way we communicate with non-Christians IS through the media.
And we forget that evangelism is supposed to be one on one. It’s relationship building. And that’s the only thing that will bring people back to Christ.
The disciples wanted Jesus to lead an army and win Israel by force. I sometimes think that’s what Christians want for America, too. Look, I’m not against having Christian leaders–Canada’s Prime Minister is a Christian and I pray everyday that he will win the next election. A country is blessed when it has Christian leaders.
But our main goal on this earth is not to make America into a Christian nation; it is to reach individuals for Christ.
And sometimes in the way that we frame the culture war as Us vs. Them, and circle the wagons, we turn off the individuals. And we feel like we are so busy winning people to Christ because we are so engaged in the Culture War–supporting politicians, giving political contributions, keeping up on the news, writing political letters–that we forget we have neighbors who just need to see Jesus. Not a letter writing campaign.
One more thing: In our attempt to be Us vs. Them, we have created even more legalistic rules of what it means to be a Christian, so that you can be sure you’re on the right side of the Culture War. To me, one of the main problems of the Duggar show was that it made it seem like the only way to be pure was to save hand holding until engagement and kissing until marriage. By showing something so counter-cultural, we thought we could show the world there is an alternative and win people to Christ that way.
But we’re just setting up rigid rules that the Bible doesn’t have. If you choose those things for yourself I completely support you. But saving hand-holding until engagement is not the biblical definition of purity.
The more that we elevate these kinds of extreme rules for Christian living, the more we solidify the Us vs. Them.
Let’s remember that Jesus was radical–but He was radical because He hung out with tax collectors and sinners, and they enjoyed Him! He was actually, for His time, radically Progressive. We’re trying to be radically Conservative. And by doing that, we’re almost becoming radical Pharisees. (I’m not saying we should become today’s version of Progressives, by the way; I’m just noting that we’ve turned the idea of radical on its head.)
I just want us to get back to a life where it’s not about rules; it’s about Jesus. And when Jesus (not rules) is real in our lives, we will have a true love for our neighbours, not a disdain for them because of the Us vs. Them Culture War.
I’m not sure if that makes any sense; I didn’t get a lot of sleep last night. And, like I said, I do think it’s important to have good laws and Christian leaders. I do think holiness matters. But the Culture War can’t be our main focus of evangelism. It doesn’t work first of all, but it also makes us all feel like we’re part of the Great Commission when we’re really doing nothing of the sort. We will win the Culture War when we start winning individuals. And the louder and more stridently we fight the Culture War, the more we lose those individuals all around us.
Does anyone get what I’m saying? Or can you give me an example from your own life of how you reached out to an individual rather than seeing them as an Us vs. Them? I’m not sure I’m articulating myself well here, so I’d love to keep the discussion going in the comments!
And then I’ll try to get back to regularly scheduled programming and regular type posts tomorrow. 🙂
Sheila Wray Gregoire has been married for 25 years and happily married for 20! She loves traveling around North America with her hubby in their RV, giving her signature "Girl Talk" about sex and marriage. And she's written 8 books. About sex and marriage. See a theme here? Plus she knits. Even in line at the grocery store.
FYI – your delirious rants are ridiculously intelligent. I love how great you are at voicing your opinions! So well-written, so wise. Thank you, thank you, thank you for not backing down! You teach all of us how to “do” righteous courage. (I’m over here applauding on the couch, btw)
Cool! I’m on the couch and I’m still in my pyjamas, too. 🙂
Many of your comments are well taken Shelia and I have two observations
a) The “ultra-pure” standard may be smaller than you are experiencing. I am a Roman Catholic who does not have much interaction with purity culture. I only get hints of it within things that I read about evangelical Christians.
b) the “Us” versus “Them” is pervasive and we DO have to build bridges. People are persuaded by people more than words. The bottom line is that people are influenced by people they know and respect first and foremost.
c) The other great source of influence is ENTERTAINMENT. It really hurts to say this truth but catechesis is not the way to influence people. People are not in favor of gay marriage because a liberal person sat down with them and explained the gospel of inclusiveness. They saw movies, heard songs, and read books that humanized gay people and their hearts were changed. We have to realize that we cannot influence people if we are not writing TV shows, fictional novels, songs, etc. We have a canon and have lost the important point that we have to CONTINUE to tell NEW stories to influence people. We cannot just rely on Scripture when people of other world views are created narratives.
OK it was 3 observations 🙂
So true, Roger! I really like that point. I think Christians in media are providing such a valuable service by telling other stories.
And you’re likely right about the hyper-conservative fringe not being that large. It’s just that it looks so large on the internet, and I think many people are scared to say things like, “um, it’s okay to hold hands before you’re engaged” because we now sound like we’re less holy or something.
I just want to chime in that the Roman Catholics have their own version of this pk purity culture. I grew up in it. And its not just reserved to people who still go to the Mass in Latin. I do think its a fringe, but a deceptively dangerous one. My mom was so proud she got us into the “purity” crowd – she figured we were “safe” there. Not so. For one thing there are still all the temptations to purity a young person faces… They just have no where to turn because the culture of their community teats sex with such disgust. Then there’s all the damage from being told (as a girl) that just existing inside a female body is a cause of sin for every man who sees you. I remember developing an eating disorder in high school and one of the side effects was that my boobs shrank from a D to an A. I was so happy to see them go because I felt I would not tempt men so much. Then my hair started to fall out. Again, joy that my “tempting” hair was gone. Same thing when my curves were replaced by bones jutting out. My journey to healing entailed not just learning to eat properly but also learning it was okay to have a body that looked like a woman and not a child. So this culture is alive and well in the Catholic church, I’m afraid.
I totally agree Sheila. Christians should not fight this culture war. The Bible says that for Christians we are to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth and make disciples of all nations and baptize them in the father son holy spirit. That’s what Christians are suppose to do. We should not fight amongst ourselves, we should pray for those who persecute us and we should be humble. We should not judge unbelievers, but when a believer sins we are to point out the sin to them so they may repent of their sins. Jesus will judge us all in the end. Remember what John the Baptist was preaching “Repent because the kingdom of God is at hand”. Even though the Bible scriptures goes against what this world wants us to do or be or act. We need to stand strong in God’s word. We need to uphold his commands and not fold because we get attacked by the our adversaries (Satan, the world and the flesh). We need to put on the armor because we are in a battle for domination of our very souls. And if we fold under pressure, no matter how unpopular it is. We are done. The world will roll over us like a steam roller. They judge us, they mock us, they ridicule us, we taunt us, they ridicule God, they file lawsuits against us, they imprison us, they kill us. Just because we believe in a holy and righteous God. But in the end, no matter if we are dead or alive, we will stand victorious and worship God at his very feet.
I would like to respond to the Duggar’s issue. If the son did something wrong and illegal he definitely should be charged and put in prison no doubts about that. We live in a country that is ruled by law after all.
My concern with your viewpoint is that when we DON’T address societal issues the “world comes into the church,” rather than us bringing the “word to the world.” I see so many Christian young people espousing gay marriage and myriad of other disasters. I think this directly correlates to the fact that many evangelical churches in the last 20 years have been SILENT on the issue because they didn’t want to get “caught up in the culture wars.” Yes, Jesus and the Gospel are our #1 priority but the truth on moral issues also needs to be spoken boldly and in love.
That’s an interesting point, Kristin, and maybe others can chime in. Here’s the question: how can churches instill proper values in kids WITHOUT making it about a big culture war?
My take, for what it’s worth, is that we make it about Jesus. My kids developed godly opinions about these things not because the church taught it but because we, as a family, just had really big conversations about it. I think churches do need to handle these issues, but so do parents. And we just need to have conversations where Jesus is real, rather than force feeding an opinion. Kids develop opinions by talking about them and owning them rather by being told “this is what you have to believe.”
I still think that when the focus of a church is on how to live out a godly life that can be more effective than if the focus is on how to change the culture to match our values. But what do other people think?
You are right, Sheila. The church needs to speak of “how to live a Godly life.” But because the personal piety issues have NOT been addressed by so many churches (just the “love stuff,” lol), the side of darkness has won the hearts of the people. I almost think you CAN’T avoid a culture war if you are to speak truth. But to fight fairly and still consider each person’s dignity is the goal.
Shelia,
I love your posts and have found so much wisdom from them.
My perspective is mainly along these lines: The desire of Christians should not be to be good Christians, but rather to be like Christ, followers and imitators of Christ, acting as Christ would to the lost and dying world around us. If our focus shifted to that point, away from partisan politics, I think the world would be in a much better shape, certainly the United States would be. I feel in a way that politics has actually stripped Christians of their power, because rather than being allied with the Gospel, we are allied with a political platform, that may function and operate in ways that are actually contrary to the Gospel. For example, I don’t personally imagine Jesus gripping and complaining that the poor can eat (food stamps), or that those who can’t afford healthcare can receive it (medicaid/Obamacare), or that low income women are able to provide adequate nutrition for their children (WIC). I see a lot of that on the conservative side. It seems to me, that in the culture war, Christians seem to only care about the gay issue and abortion, but not the poor, or disadvantaged, or even really family values. If family values really mattered, it would be the right that would push for adequate family leave, pensions, and sick pay. It strengthens family when parents can take off work and bond with their newborns, or have sick days where they can care for their children. In America though, its really about money, and nothing trumps profit here, not even people. I know that Canada is different than the US, so maybe the perspective is different there.
This is what I believe and what I’ve taught my girls:
Scripture is a love letter to me, to them, and to the world. God created all of us, loves us with an unconditional love, and calls us to love others. Now there is scripture that pertains to homosexuality. But my girls are not lesbians and don’t have those feelings (yes, I’ve asked!). So that area of scripture does not pertain to them. It’s not their issue. What is their issue? To love their neighbor as themselves. To show them the love of Christ. To abide in Christ, which will produce good fruit and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. It is not to judge or condemn, because NO ONE came to the cross because they felt judged! And not a single gay person in America does not know what the Bible says about homosexuality, so let’s stop bashing their heads in with a Bible.
Therefore, basically we don’t have to have an opinion on homosexuality or gay marriage because it doesn’t pertain to us. It’s not being lukewarm, we can just refrain from judging and having an opinion. It completely frees us up to love! When we love others and show them Christ’s love, He begins to work on their hearts. He reconciles Himself to them. He saves them. HE DOES ALL THE WORK! And if He chooses to remove that same sex attraction and temptation, that’s between Him and them; it’s none of my business what the Holy Spirit does in the lives of others, unless they care to share. It’s not my job nor the job of any Christian to change any person. That’s totally arrogant thinking and it takes matters into your own hands rather than surrendering it to God.
So when asked what we think of gay marriage, we can simply say “I have no opinion on the matter.”, and change the subject. Because a discussion on this NEVER ends well. It just creates division.
This is the best response I’ve ever read on a Christian blog. As far as “us vs them” you’re right original poster- and it’s actually blogs like this that further that division. BUT this response is the most rational and Truley Christ like response I’ve ever seen in my life and I appreciate it as a member of the “them” camp. What great sentiment.
I think you’re making the mistake of assuming that Christian = conservative. Maybe it’s just a side effect of the bubble I live in, but I know more liberal Christians than conservative Christians. These are people who live out their faith every day. Some of them are clergy or seminarians and who grapple daily with the big questions.
I am a Christian, and I’m also a gay woman. I’m biting my nails while waiting for that supreme court decision, though not for the reasons that you seem to think.
I absolutely agree that we shouldn’t have an us vs them mentality. I would encourage you to think about the ways in which the “us” (Christians) is less homogenous than you’d think. Because, even as a liberal, gay Christian, I have to fight the same daily battles that a conservative Christian would. Among my very, very close friends, I’m the only Christian, and it’s really hard to be salt and light to a group that has been hurt by Christians before.
Christine, that’s a great point, and I should have clarified. Sorry about that! I guess I was more responding to the Christian culture that IS fighting the Culture War that was active on social media this weekend. But you’re right–I should have been more precise with my words.
Conservative Christians can live out their faith daily, too. That isn’t something that is limited to being liberal.
Megan recently posted…mothers’ day
I think that came across colder than I meant for it to. I was more thinking aloud, but I don’t think it communicated that way. I’m sorry. I think you touched on something so important- there are huge groups of people who have been deeply hurt by Christians. What do we do about that?
Megan recently posted…mothers’ day
Oh, yes, I’m sorry if that came across as unclear! All Christians should be striving to live out their faith daily, regardless of what they do at the polls. I just happen to know more Christians who fall on the liberal side of things because my church is fairly liberal.
Regarding people who have been hurt by Christians, the best response I have is to meet people where they are, and to pray! I want my non-Christian friends to know that I am warm and loving and compassionate, and all of that compassion comes from the Holy Spirit. I try to be there when my friends need me. And of course, I talk openly about my faith– not in an overbearing way, but I don’t avoid mentioning that I go to church or church events.
Okay, I totally LOVE THIS! Here are two people with two different viewpoints both working towards the same goal–bringing people to Christ–and discussing it properly. Isn’t THIS what the internet should be?
This is what the church should be.
Christian from all walks of life, from both ends of the political spectrum, from “both sides of the tracks”, from every background there is, working together to show the world that the Man we follow and the God we worship are worth the cost.
I’m pretty much convinced that the fights that we Christians can get into are caused by spiritual warfare. Satan wants the church to be divided and for Christians to fight among ourselves. Which isn’t to say that discussions about doctrine aren’t important, but it’s equally important to be loving and respectful, and remember that we’re here to help each other along, not tear each other down!
Christine, I would love to dialogue with you about your faith. My daughter has a lovely gay friend, he grew up in the church. He finally came to terms with the fact that he was gay about 3 years ago, but he was asked to leave the church his family went to. He has suffered some excriciating pain in the last couple years and has told my daughter pretty matter of factly that God won’t even accept him because he is gay. My daughter is beside herself because she really does not have a good way of communicating God’s love to him, but she wants to keep trying. Any advice on the subject would be very helpful. My husband is in the Catholic church and they believe that people can definitely have same sex attraction, but they believe that it is something people need to give to God and refrain from relations.
Just looking for a lifeline for this young man, we love him very much and are always praying for him not to be bitter.
The first thing that I try to keep in mind at all times is Romans 8:38-39. No matter how much we try to push God away from us, He is always there.
What your daughter can do is to try to be the medium through which he experiences God’s love. So often God’s love is translated to us by human love. Anything that she can do to show him that she loves him and won’t give up on him is priceless. She doesn’t have to condone any behavior that she finds morally unacceptable, of course. But letting him know that he is still loved by Christians is priceless.
As a family, invite him over for dinner and games. Include him on family outings. Ask him about his life, and really, really listen. Pray for him and love on him. If you’re comfortable doing this, and if he’s dating someone, ask him to bring his boyfriend along.
I don’t know how comfortable you’ll be with this last idea, but I’m going to throw it out there: see if you can get him plugged into a church that’s welcoming and affirming to gay people. I go to an Episcopal church that has a chapter of an organization for GLBTQ members called Integrity. If there’s an area church that has a similar organization, see if you can contact someone who would be willing to speak to your young friend.
I’ll be praying for you and your family, and this young man. Sending lots of love your way!
Hey Sheila,
I agree that we live in confusing times and I think Christians’ greatest needs now are wisdom and discernment. You’re right. Jesus was a radical in His day – a Progressive for the time, I think you said – but there were times when He was also legalistic sounding. I’m referring to His teaching on marriage, divorce and remarriage. Yes, He was hated by the Religious Right of that time but were He to repeat today the things He taught then, He would be rejected by the non-religious types as well.
Christians need to love the Truth. There are many who don’t and that’s why they are confused. Then, Christians need to get radical in a Christ-like way. I’m going to do a typically Christian thing and recommend a book: Radical by David Platt. http://www.radicalthebook.com/home.html. Happy reading.
Al
You’re right, Al. I think that’s one of the most attractive things about Jesus; He’s not easily classified.
Yes, I think I agree with the gist of what you’re saying. Jesus was not afraid to spend time with and have real relationships with people who believed very differently than He did. And He usually served people first, and then got down to theology. We should expect people to respond to us with hatred and defensiveness, because that is how we (as a whole) have responded to them. It’s so bug and so complex that it’s hard for me to see a way out, but I think the only way out is what you are suggesting – to just love people and share Jesus with them one relationship at a time.
Megan recently posted…mothers’ day
Yes, I think that when Christians make big sweeping pronouncements about big cultural issues, we forget that individuals are hearing them. And those individuals can be hurt by the tone in which we say it. It’s just really, really hard.
First, Happy (belated) Birthday! Thanks for using your wisdom (from age and experience ;D) to benefit so many 😀
Second, thanks for both of these posts – the Duggar post yesterday and today’s. As we raise kids in this fallen, sinful world it can be very easy to live in fear. Our culture is largely becoming morally bankrupt. But guess what?! (I have to remind myself…) My faith is not in my culture, my president / prime minister, the media, or any number of other things. God is still on His throne, reigning in glory.
And that’s what I need to remember. I serve a mighty God, who is not toppled from His throne, no matter how messed up we are.
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I love that, Julie!
Thank you for your 2 posts on this subject! I was one who initially reacted with everyone else, and yes, reacted to your daughter’s article (tho I didn’t comment). But after reading your first article, which seemed more logical and thoughtful rather than emotional compared to all the others flying around, I was able to let go of the “culture war” I was trying to fight on their behalf. Thank you for helping us see today what what we are doing and why we are doing it! (And your post makes a lot of sense and is clear, btw. 😉 I appreciate your thoughtful insight!
Happy birthday! 🙂 I’m so sorry it wasn’t a special day; I think a lot of people have had some confusing, topsy-turvy days over this issue! I do hope you can go celebrate somehow. 🙂
I recently discovered your blog, and have been talking a lot about your books and blog content. Then hubby just surprised me with 3 of your books! 😀 I can’t wait to read them. <3
Aw, that’s great, Laura! I hope you really enjoy the books. And thanks for the birthday wishes!
Great post!
It shouldn’t be a war, people are hurt enough. Our role as believers is to help the hurt, not make it worse.
First, happy belated birthday Sheila!!! second, thank you for the article. It was very well written and all of the comments so far are on point as well as written in a loving manner. As someone non-Christian (i have been going to church recently though) i have to say fhe “us vs them” mentality and blatant hypocrisy had turned me off from Christianity from a young age. I also was hurt a LOT by people claiming to be Christian, specially young men, and thought “how can i trust a man with my soul? All they ever do is control and hurt women?” recently though more and more people are stepping up and ACTING Christian as well as SPEAKING Christian. It is slowly softening my heart, though i may always be guarded. So, in summing up, i want to thank all of you who stand up for what’s right and stay strong in your beliefs in a loving compassionate way.
Oh, Angie, thank you for commenting and sharing your story! I’m so glad that more people around you are starting to act like Christ to you. That’s wonderful! And thank you for your encouraging words, too.
I agree 100% with you. It’s so important to relate to people on a personal level rather than fighting a “culture war.” Nobody really fits into stereotypes anyway!
Btw, my husband was raised in a similarly Dugger-like culture and he said that what Josh did happened to a lot of kids when he was growing up. It was unfortunately pretty normal. Devastating for everyone involved — the perpetrators, the victims, the parents/siblings, etc. — but it happened a LOT. There must be some reason for it but I don’t have a clue what it might be. =/ Very sad.
Oh, and happy belated birthday! It’s birthday season around here too! 🙂
Elizabeth, I actually have quite the theory on that, and I think I’ll write about it more in the summer when this has died down a bit. I don’t want it to be about the Duggars but instead about hyper-modesty teamed with hyper-patriarchy which often silences women, dismisses children, and leaves kids no place to go when they’re curious about sex.
I’m looking forward to seeing what you have to say about this.
That should be interesting. A quick clarification though from someone who has seen most of the episodes of the show, I never got the impression that they were saying the no-kissing thing was the only way to be a Christian. Not at all. That was the decision they chose, that’s all. At least that was my impression. NOT defending them in the current situation – just clarifying on the other issue.
I also think that if someone wants to implement an “extreme” standard in their life because they believe that is what God is calling them to, then why on earth would anyone argue with that (not talking about the Duggars here)? No, it’s not for everyone, but maybe it’s legitimate for some people and that’s OK. Kissing someone before you are married isn’t a sin, but neither is not kissing them. That kind of decision can be made from the heart and not a rule book. Of course, if they were trying to say it was for everyone then there would be a problem, but I haven’t seen that from the people I know who hold to those standards.
Looking forward to it! 🙂
I’m an athiest but i was raised in a christian home. Baptist to be exact. Even went to a private Lutheran college. Knowing what i know about Christianity, i completely agree with you. Of course i can’t say i agree with you 100% since our beliefs are so different but i do agree that far too many people, christian and secular alike, have lost touch with humanity. I think that’s why i enjoy reading your posts so much despite the differences in our beliefs. It’s refreshing to encounter someone that seems genuinely interested in making a difference in just one person’s life instead of being on some grand crusade…if that even makes sense.
It does make sense. Thank you, Brienna, and I’m so glad you find my posts helpful!
I do get what you’re saying and absolutely agree. My wife passes your articles to me so I’m an avid reader of your blog via her. She has, also, been a regular viewer of the Duggar tv show. As were many other Christians, we were very disappointed by the scandal and agree that the damage was only worsened by the defensive posture from the ‘Christian side’.
You have really substantiated many of our personal beliefs regarding marriage and sexual relations in marriage.
Daily battles to keep personal relationships strong and healthy require a lot of effort and energy. Fighting the ‘cultural battle’ in distracting as well as destructive.
THANK YOU for your insight and wisdom.
Married 38 yrs and looking forward to the next 38!
Thank you for your encouragement, Loren (and to your wife, too)!
And congratulations on 38 years of marriage! You’ve got 14 on me!
… “and they’ll know we are Christians by our love…” as the song goes, and it is especially good advice for our day and age. We have become far too judgemental and full of condemnation, that we are turning people away from Christ. You nailed it in the head, that we are do busy fighting a culture war, we are forgetting that our biggest witness is to our neighbors. Most of my friends are non-Christian, and all have had their view of Christianity changed because of me. That’s a powerful statement and a powerful ability to influence that ALL Christians have. We can change the culture, but we have to focus on changing it at a grass-roots level. If you can influence a person’s heart, that can spread, and will eventually change the culture. It cannot be the other way around! The way we fight it now brings nothing but opposition and fir people to look at us like we’re backwards, or out of touch. Let’s change hearts. Make friends with everyone. Show them Christian love. Show them we’re normal. And through that, that is the best witness.
Your article was so spot on and perfect. Thank you for your, as per usual, eloquent writing!
Oh, thank you, Kate! I appreciate that. I think the way to turn the tide on marriage, for example, is to reach out and help young people’s marriages all around us, and help young people choose well, rather than just fighting the culture war. Let’s make marriages better, not just Support Marriage. I hope that makes sense!
Sheila, another great post! No worries, it all made great sense.
And you helped me realize something. I am figuring out what it is about North American Evangelical Christianity that is so different then my previous experience. See, I grew up multi-cultural. In South America Catholicism is still the dominant religion. So much so that growing up there people actually spoke of Christian vs. Catholic (even by Catholics) and it took me a while to realize that we all follow Christ. The point being, that being Evangelical was being the outsider, we were different. We were not the dominant religious view, and as such never dominated the cultural to even be able to worry about losing it. My family is also from Germany, and when I moved back there as a young adult I found a wonderful Evangelical group of believers. I think it is safe to say that most of Europe long ago became a post-Christian culture. Attending a small Evangelical church was so odd to the cultural, that the church was actually watched by the Government as if it were a cult. So again, we loved Jesus and lived it, but it was as aliens within a very different culture. Again, no loss of a recent dominant culture, no culture war. Sometimes I think my casual attitude towards the culture war, has seemed strange to North American Christians, even though my personal beliefs are very Christian.
What’s funny to in the current us vs them mentality, is that sometimes I want to side with them. And you know what, I think Jesus would sometimes too. I was recently talking with my husband, that if Jesus were on Earth today and here in the US I don’t think he would be a Republican, not necessarily a Democrat either though. He’d probably just vote each election on what was right, instead of just the party opinion. Does that make sense?
As far as your question about reaching people, I recently found myself on the “wrong” side of the cultural war (well I still think it was the right side). Long story short turns out some of my thoughts on how God feels about women were a bit too feminist for some Christian ladies. But as I shared my thoughts, and pointed to Christian women who are serving God (not just their husbands) while changing the world, I got feedback from non-Christians who were impressed. I think it was refreshing to them to see a women who didn’t feel we being a wife is the only option for a Christian woman. So while there have been no new conversions as a result yet, I do think some stereotypes were shattered.
Keep up the great thought-provoking work, Sheila!
Hi Viviana! Your experience is likely a lot like mine–except even more so. I think Canada would fall between Germany and the U.S. on the spectrum, so I know a little of where you’re coming from.
And that whole thing about being a little too feminist? Totally get it. To one group of people I’m a flaming feminist and to another I’m a starch conservative. People can’t often see the middle. But I totally get you that often it’s those outside of the Culture War who appreciate candidness.
Thanks for commenting!
Haha. My pastor says that if we’re getting hate from both side for being too much like the other side we’re likely doing it right 🙂
When you make it “just about Jesus”, people tend to throw out the rules God gave us for our own good. There actually is scripture that gives us guidelines for where not to touch before marriage. It’s rarely referenced and a friend of mine, after seeing it, said she wishes she’d known about it before she messed around with her boyfriend. I did hold hands with my husband before we were married but we waited to kids until our wedding night. Good thing, too, because kissing is a major turn on for him. Let’s remember that Jesus addressed both individual and culture.
As far as the Duggars, and remember this comes from a survivor of sexual abuse, I think the problem stems from a group of people not as protected from the world as they would like to be. I’d be interested to see a comparison of historical accounts of sexual abuse within the biblical Jewish culture. These people were held to moral standards probably more rigorous than the more conservative standards today. So I’d argue that moral dating standards aren’t new, just readopted. The Duggars are also aligned with a group that practices questionable theology. But I will say this: From what I know, he admitted his wrongdoing and made amends. He was 14, not that I’m excusing him. If he did it, it was probably done to him. Since he made amends, asked forgiveness, etc., what are we doing maligning him publicly instead of using this as an example of forgiveness?
The “culture wars” thing is uniquely US and rather stupid. Again just stop it already. The world is ruled by Satan. This is a fact. “We” have already “lost”. The culture is what it is because of the prince of darkness and it’s not likely to change. Specially not when we fight with his weapons.
But He who is in us has already overcome the world and the evil one. So we CANNOT loose. We have nothing to fear.
The church should get serious about living the faith, mentoring our youth, and increasing in holiness amongst the brethren and loving our neighbours. Then we won’t have so much time to waste on fighting futile battles.
This article says kind of the same thing. I thought you might like it Sheila.
http://joffrethegiant.blogspot.com/2015/01/is-it-okay-for-christians-to-be-on.html
Happy belated birthday.
I love Joffre the Giant. Was it you who sent me his piece on modesty a while back? Thanks for the link!
Yes it was. I love him too. He makes you feel/ remember that our lives really matter. We’re playing our small part in a cosmic battle. It just does something for your heart.
Thanks again, Sheila. You’ve made great points. I do think we need to stand up at times for what is right, but I honestly don’t think that should be our main focus. Our main focus, as you said, is to share Christ, to love people the way He loved people, and to live with compassion and joy. Angry and bitter arguments over cultural issues just don’t reflect the things of Christ.
I am really distressed this week about another type of “rules following” that is favored among some groups of Christians. I’ve been dismayed to see a large and influential church put its “rules” and “covenants” above the needs of a church member who is hurting deeply, and then to discuss her situation publicly in order to protect and defend itself. Completely astonishing. I can’t imagine what non-Christians think when they see this sort of thing happening within the church.
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Yes! I love how my church doesn’t care about what’s cultural, either in Christian culture or popular culture, but rather what’s biblical and you tend to lean the same way. I’ve been reading a book for a group at church called Coffee Shop Conversations by Dale and Jonalyn Fincher…it’s an awesome read (I’m on my second read through cause it is just so packed with good reading!) and I highly recommend it!
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Sheila & Katie,
Love you, love you, love you both. There are so many things in this life that try to take away our joy. As a christian I think we can be more intimidating and misunderstood than most groups. I think we all need to remember we are all of the same body but we don’t all paint our fingernails the same color, or dress in the same style, etc. I personally believe that Jesus is the Christ the only Son of God the Father. I believe the Bible is His inspired word. I believe if He inspired one word He inspired all of them and because of this it should be fairly easy to understand what our job is, where our boundaries are, what is expected. Then to mess it all up in steps satan, and our humanity, and there goes the simple life we could be living. If we all took the time to remember if it isn’t in Gods design it should be tested to see where it is coming from and who we are serving. God, satan, myself, cultural beliefs, my neighbor, friends etc. you get my drift. I know how easy it is to get comfortable in our circles and to protect ourselves from the world. Our God has overcome the world, so we need to get on with the work he gave us to do. There are consequences for actions that are not in line with Gods will for our lives and I believe, Christ followers as well as those who don’t follow Christ need to be held accountable and this needs to be done quickly and the person needs to suffer the consequences. I got a bit too wordy, I get so frustrated by folks who proclaim one lifestyle and live out another. All the best to you, my birthday is today. No wonder I enjoy your blog so very much. Keep sharing and keep the conversation flowing,
Bette
Thanks again for writing this Sheila! I’m going to chime in from an Australian perspective here… We don’t have a culture war here. Not really. We do have a vocal Christian lobby that is trying really, really hard to create one, but your average Aussie just doesn’t care enough! We’re just too laid back. Voting has to be compulsory here or no-one would bother turning up!
From here, the likes of the Duggars just appear as total weirdos, full of rules and no reality. They give Christianity a really, really bad name. The words “Pharisee” and “Hypocrite” have been appearing here a lot in recent days. Aussies may be laid back, but nothing stirs them up like a holier-than-thou hypocrite!
It might be worth pointing out here that the 1st century world into which the apostles went was not unlike the world today. False religion and immorality were rampant. And yet, the apostles never sought to ‘Christianize’ the Roman empire – rather they preached a very personal message for a very personal need, and Acts is full of the accounts of individuals who repented, believed and were saved. I can’t find record of one campaign against social issues like temple prostitution or slavery… The apostles seemed to be remarkably unconcerned with changing culture, and yet it was said that they “turned the world upside down”! They were in the business of seeing LIVES changed. Any social/cultural changes were downstream effects of that. I think the “culture wars” are really putting the cart before the horse – how can we expect a non-Christian to appreciate Christian values such as marriage? Why would they? They don’t know God. They need the gospel, not a lesson in Christian morality!
How then to reach people? As the Lord did. The whole point of the Christian life is to become more like Christ until one day we ARE like Him and with Him forever. He was, quite simply, really nice! His words were gracious, His actions gentle and kind and His relationships very, very personal. People were attracted to Him (at least initially). We ought to be attractive too. Not that all will accept or even like us, but we ought to radiate Christ. That doesn’t happen on a national scale. That happens in our homes, work places, schools and neighborhoods.
I was wondering when someone would bring that up. I think we Christians are so stuck in our own time, focused so tightly on current issues, we’ve lost perspective. We talk as though our own culture is the worst the world has yet seen(and mix in a hefty dose of nostalgia for a romanticized version of the good old days) but we forget that Christians throughout history have faced cultural issues that were much more difficult than anything we’ve had to deal with. Paul’s world involved slavery, infanticide, and a deeply entrenched, sophisticated system of idolatry–and look what God did through him and a bunch of women, slaves, and other social outsiders. The Roman empire is long gone, but Christianity lives on. God isn’t limited by the ideas of those in power.
My dear Friend,
No wonder you didn’t get to eat any cake! I grew tired just scrolling through these comments, never mind replying to all of them!
I certainly cannot imagine the pressure you feel to keep up with all of this! Please make sure to take some time to celebrate YOU with your family without worrying about what the rest of the world thinks or wants!!
I love you!
M
Wanna go get cake with me sometime, friend? 🙂
Larger issues are raised in the above post. How are Christians to engage a non-believing world? My take is that Christianity could have developed a spirituality that would also be practical for those of us who do not reside in the cloister or the monastery. Sadly, Christianity evolved into an excessively ethical path, not a spiritual one. To be sure, there is a need for organized religion. But, the history of organized religion (sorry to say) is full of abuses of Church authority.
People ought to live moral lives, yes, but how best to do that? If one strives for and achieves a spiritual level of consciousness, then one will naturally avoid harming others. The problem seems to me to be that too many Christians are stuck in a bodily level of consciousness that is reinforced by too many legalistic rules – some of which are not even rational.
Some Christians do have non-Christian friends. I have had over the years many non-Christian friends. This may in part be due to the fact that I have studied the other religions of the world and worked with many individuals from other countries. These people have appreciated that I at least knew a little about their religious beliefs.
If god loves everyone, he loves gay people. If marriage is important let gay people get married and have strong, committed and fulfilling relationships. Yes in liviticus god says a man laying with a man in an abomination, but it also says planting more than one type of crop in a field is an abomination. I don’t see anyone getting fired up about planting kale and peas next to each other… Love one another. That is all. Love!
Jesus said to “disciple all nations” in the end of Matthew. Jesus said to “teach everything I have commanded.”
So… Evangelizing the world is indeed about “making America into a Christian nation.” It is about making the whole world into a Christian world.
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You have opened my mind to a new way of thinking – and I have to admit, I do tend to be a bit too legalistic in my approach to life and situations. My brain finds it hard to function any other way. But, as you so clearly say, and I totally agree – that is NOT how we will win souls to Christ. To show Christ to the world, we have to know that we are loved and show that love to others. So, that people can see there is something different about us. We are strong and vibrant and believing because of what Christ has done for us, not because of what rules we are following. Thank you for another amazing article. Thank you!
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You’re so welcome! I’m glad you found it helpful!
Reasons: satan has successfully infiltrated seminary minds to doubt the truth and authority of the Bible, for the most part churches provide activities not the meat of the word, and Christians are easily swayed because their minds spend more time dwelling on human solutions not God’s word. We are in a spiritual battle and must fight spiritually thru prayer, studying God’s word and obeying what it says regardless of the downward spiral our nation is taking.
Yes, yes, a million times yes! Thank you so much for this, and stay on it.
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Thank you, Paul.
I’m coming, I guess, to this issue as a self-identified Liberal (with conservative leanings). I am for environmental policy change — for welfare, unemployment insurance and health insurance. I believe those government interventions are necessary in a society where family no longer provides those services and big business can not be relied upon to offer them. But, when it comes to children — I”m conservative because the traditional family is the gold standard for their generation, education, growth and welfare. Because I became a Christian as the result not of biblical instruction (that came later) but as the result of a revelation of Christ — my parents are atheists — I do not have quite the same take on a lot of Christian doctrine or biblical interpretation that I know many Christians — particularly evangelicals — do. I measure and interpret the bible according to the utterly supernatural, unbelievable and astonishing Love that I discovered *is* God and that Christ lived and died. So when he says things like, ‘suffer the little children to come to me and forbid them not, for such is the kingdom of heaven” and “when you do it for the least of these my brethern, you go it for me” and “I and the father are one” then I see children, or the poor (“the least of these) as where we see God because Christ was the human face of God. Christ and God were one because Christ lived and died that kind of Love God Is. The poor then — the least of these — are God’s focus. In fact, Christ suggests with his radical words, they are himself. They are God. Thus, compassion for children — allowing them the human right to grow up where their needs come first because they are powerless, because they have the most to lose — is obeying Jesus. Therefore I firmly believe what St. Francis said: “preach the gospel constantly — using words when necessary.” Obeying God, following Jesus, is a matter of putting the ‘least of these’ first — whether that is children or a drug-pusher-addicted mentally ill homeless vagrant. Both are the face of Christ in as Mother Teresa put it, ‘his most distressing disguise’. This all makes sense to me if God is seen to be Love — the sacrificial, unconditional love Jesus exemplified. Sometimes the poor, particularly children, are represented best by conservatives — sometimes by liberals. That experience i had of God and Christ revealed a total indifference to such labels. Stephen Harper represents some concern for the poor (children, families, the rights of SAHM to *be* SAHMs) and abuses the poor (God’s creation and minorities — especially the mentally ill) in other ways. I don’t know if the world has ever had a Christian leader in the sense that I believe Christ lived — and led — the love of God. What we do know is that such leaders — St. Francis, MLK, Gandhi — etc. are usually either martyred — or are themselves poor. This is my perspective, though, as someone who is not specifically any kind of Christian (I was babtised a Baptist — I guess — am now Anglican — I guess) but am seeking, trying, hoping, wanting to follow the one I met 40 years ago who was Love personified.
“Let’s remember that Jesus was radical–but He was radical because He hung out with tax collectors and sinners, and they enjoyed Him!”
I love this Sheila! I was redirected to this post from your newest post today. I’m so glad I stumbled upon it! I recently wrote an article titled “Does God Love Gay People Too?”. Much of what you’ve said here (though spoken differently) is what I tried to express too.
I pray, too, that the Christian community will stop the them vs. us perpetual cycle.
God bless you Sheila.