I am angry today.
I am angry that lately so many high profile leaders in the Christian church have had to step down in disgrace. I’m angry that it is giving our world, which desperately needs Christ, a negative view of the church–and of God.
I know some of my readers attend Mars Hill churches around the nation, and I know you are likely hurting much more than me. I understand that many of you still stand completely behind Mark Driscoll, and that is fine. This post is not about bashing Mark, because I do not know him. But as I have looked at various scandals over the last few years, it seems as if they have several commonalities that we need to be aware of–and those commonalities affect how we see marriage.
To sum up for those of you who aren’t aware, Mark Driscoll is the young pastor of the megachurch Mars Hill in Seattle. His vision was to create the kind of church that the liberal, non-religious Seattle would flock to, and so he made a church with super-conservative doctrine have a super liberal culture, if that makes any sense. They talked about sex. They joked around a lot. Church was fun.
But in the process, Mark apparently isolated himself at the top and silenced all critics, and it’s that behaviour that has put him in hot water. Mark Driscoll himself admitted to this when he stepped down, so I do believe the criticism was warranted. I also believe that when Mark preached thousands were saved, and that’s why this all seems like such a waste. A work was being done; and somehow ego got in the way.
And it’s that ego that I want to address.
Servanthood, Not Power, is the Focus of Jesus’ Ministry
In all Christian scandals that I can recall, and in all cults, the common denominator is a charismatic leader at the top who has consolidated power and does not tolerate dissent.
That’s why, when I hear people focusing so much on who should have power in the marriage, I know that we have lost the point of what Jesus wanted for relationship.
The very last lesson He gave His disciples about how to exercise leadership was to wash their feet (John 13). Leadership must be exercised with humility and servanthood. Indeed, if you were to look through the New Testament, servanthood is the key relational model that Jesus left us with.
How anyone can look at the marriage passage in Ephesians 5:21-33 and think that the main message that Paul is giving is that “men should lead and women should obey” is beyond me. Ephesians 5:21-33 is about servanthood–how the wife should serve the husband, and how the husband should serve the wife. Indeed, the very first verse in that section sets the tone for the section:
Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Each spouse should be asking, “how can I best serve my spouse?” That should be our goal. When we focus so much on the fact that the husband has all the power to make decisions, and the wife must obey without question, we lose the beauty of what marriage was supposed to be.
A husband leads by setting the tone and by bearing ultimate responsibility for the family. But he does this while serving the family. It is never a question of power, and yet too often when we talk about marriage, we frame it as if God wants men to have power and women to be powerless. No, God wants each of us to serve. When you’re both serving and you’re both loving, all of these other debates seem not to matter (which is what I’ve found in my marriage). We just try to love each other, and isn’t that better?
(To show what I mean about serving one’s husband, we had a bit of a to-do on the blog last week over these posts about prioritizing sex. It’s such a simple thing–a way we can serve–and I think we need to do it more).
Power Without Accountability is Dangerous–Even in Marriage
The leaders who have fallen in the last few years have primarily been leaders of super-conservative movements–the very ones that preach that men should have full power in their families, and that pastors should have full power in their churches. And yet we have seen, time and again, that this simply doesn’t work.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
The governments that don’t work in the world are ones in which absolute power is congregated at the top, and people have no recourse.
When I hear women teach other women that they must not question their husbands, no matter what their husbands do, because that is not God’s role for them, quite frankly I wonder if they understand human behaviour. When people have free reign and no accountability, very little good comes of it.
Throughout Scripture we are given specific ways to deal with someone when we disagree–and those methods are relevant in marriage, too. But let’s just think about this logically. How does it glorify God if a man plays video games six hours a day, and he is able to say to his wife, “this is what I want to do and you have to obey me”? How does it glorify God if a man can hit his wife and then say, “you’re my wife and you must stay with me”? How does it glorify God if a man can work 12 hours a day, never talk to his family, text and flirt with women at work, and then tell his wife, “I am providing and you can’t question me”? It doesn’t glorify God. Not at all.
Now, I have heard some Christian writers say, “if he’s really sinning, you aren’t to follow him into sin, but otherwise you must obey him.” Yet Scripture is filled with people confronting others when they are starting to go off course. Paul stood up to Peter and told him he was wrong about refusing to eat with Gentiles. Peter didn’t say, “Well, I’m the one Jesus called The Rock, so get in line.” Peter took Paul’s admonition seriously and changed.
Moses’ father-in-law came to him and said, “what you are doing is not good” when Moses was overburdening himself. Moses didn’t say, “well, I’m the one whom God appointed to lead the people, so go away”. No, he listened to Jethro.
God has set us up in Christian community so that we should have accountability, and yet too often it’s treated as if marriage is the one place where none of this applies. You can confront a pastor, an elder, a friend, or a parent, but you can’t confront your spouse, and you can’t talk to others about a problem. He should have absolute power.
This is one reason why marriages fall apart or die on the inside! We can’t have real intimacy without authenticity, and you can’t have authenticity when there is major disrespect or problems between you. Let’s stop treating marriage like he has all the power, because I have never seen that work out well in any other sphere of human interaction.
Women Deserve Respect, Too
I was quite open-minded about the Mark Driscoll mess for a long time. I figured the man was bringing thousands into the church, and he was preaching on marriage (though I haven’t read his book), so he must be doing something right. Then I saw the comments he made about women on the discussion board several years ago, and I was absolutely appalled.
He called men who didn’t take power in their marriages a derogatory term for women I can’t even print here. In fact, he used so many derogatory terms for women I felt my skin crawl. Would Jesus ever have said anything like that?
Men need respect, and women need love. I completely agree with that, in general. But women deserve respect, too. And one of the precursors for people to behave badly is that they stop respecting those under their leadership. When pastors don’t respect women, it’s awfully easy to get involved in an affair or to sexually abuse others (Mark Driscoll has not been accused of any sexual sin, as far as I know). The Bill Gothard scandal that broke earlier this year showed this perfectly. Gothard built a ministry with a very specific and narrow vision of men’s ultimate authority and women’s ultimate subservience, and then proceeded to sexually harass dozens of young women who were interning with him.
Why were slaveowners able to treat their slaves so badly? Because they dehumanized them. They said they weren’t even real people; they were animals. Why was Hitler able to convince the Germans to kill the Jews (and the Gypsies, and the Poles)? Because he told Germans these races were inferior.
When we make a whole people group into something inferior, it becomes very easy to mistreat them.
Jesus gave respect and honor to all–to women, to children, to different races. We should, too. That protects others from being mistreated, and it protects our hearts from becoming so proud that we would mistreat others.
I do not believe that Mark Driscoll started out as a very angry, authoritarian man, or that Bill Gothard necessarily started out to abuse women. But when you are given absolute power, you start to believe that there is something special about you. And when that happens, it’s easy to start dismissing your own sins. Power changes you. And so, as a church, we must stop this urge to give people power, and we must come back to the biblical model of servanthood and respect.
If we all simply respected each other, held each other accountable, and concentrated on how to serve each other, fewer of these scandals would happen, and far more people would be discipled into healthy, whole relationships.
Sheila Wray Gregoire has been married for 29 years and happily married for 24! She loves traveling around North America with her hubby in their RV, giving her signature "Girl Talk" about sex and marriage. And she's written 7 books. About sex and marriage. See a theme here? Plus she knits. Even in line at the grocery store.
This is actually the first time I hear about Mark Driscoll being in hot water. If he did wrong he should step down no doubt about it and let someone else take over. That’s the way it works in any church or company or anywhere else for that matter. I think that when you get TOO BIG then its easy to let your EGO get to you. After all we are all sinners and we have a sinful nature. Many pastors/church leaders has controversies about them, some not true made up by liberal media and conspiracy theorists. I don’t really pay much attention to them because they don’t serve the purpose of bringing forth God’s kingdom.
I generally don’t pay much attention either, but this one, I think, is important, because he had such a witness to a largely secular community.
And Mark has admitted it and stepped down, so it’s not really in debate.
But I think the broader issue is true–we as a church have a tendency to elevate people to absolute power in different roles, and it needs to stop. It does not end well, either in ministry or marriage. Until we truly get this, and prevent people from having absolute power, we will continue to have scandals.
There is something about human nature that seems to want to be led. George Bush, for instance, really believed that the Iraqis would welcome democracy and would thrive with liberty (I believed this too). Yet time and again we see where other countries deliberately choose dictatorships, and deliberately choose to be led. It isn’t of God. Freedom and liberty mixed with servanthood are of God. Yet we flee from it, primarily, I think, because we don’t want responsibility. And that’s scary, and we need to wake up.
Amen
I agree with much of what you wrote, Sheila, but God has called men to be the head and leader of the home just as in every institution there is a leader. He has called women to submit to their husbands in everything and older women are to teach young women to be obedient to their husbands. He tells us we win disobedient husbands without a word by our godly behavior.There has to be a leader or there will always be conflict, each person wanting their way. YES, husbands should absolutely listen to their wives and wives should learn how to share their opinions and discuss things with their husbands, but when we begin demanding to be right and forcing our opinions upon them, we are not in submission as God wants us to be.
Thanks for your thoughts, Lori!
The one issue I’m struggling with is this: “There has to be a leader or there will always be conflict, each person wanting their way.” We’ve been married for 23 years and we’ve never, ever found this to be true. We just find a way to come to an agreement. I am not sure why people think that in a Christian relationship there will automatically be disagreement. Wouldn’t the Christian way mean that we pray together and come to an agreement, and seek each other’s best interests?
I have known plenty of couples who say that in all their decades of marriage, there have only been one or two times where they’ve had to say, “Okay, we’ll go with what you want”, because the vast majority they have just worked to an agreement. Gary Thomas, for instance, has said this in his books on marriage, too.
My problem with stressing the leadership model so much is that it sets up this expectation that there will be disagreement and he will have to make the decision. Then when you don’t agree, instead of working it through and communicating and going back and forth, she backs down and they do it his way because that’s the “Christian” model. I think the Christian model is good communication and working towards true unity. That’s why I’d prefer that we stress servanthood and unity over “he must make the decisions because someone has to.” I just don’t see anywhere in the Bible where leadership is described that way. Instead, I see a ton talking about unity and love and open communication, and I think most marriages would benefit a ton from more unity and more love and more communication than saying “we would get along better if he made the decisions.”
I hope that makes sense. It’s the expectation that there will always be disagreements and that you won’t be able to agree any other way that doesn’t seem evident in Scripture to me.
Thanks for your response Sheila,
I don’t think that on the actual outcome of the behavior of a marriage we are far off from each other. I have no issue with a wife gently, lovingly suggesting things to her husband or even rebuking him, so long as she in doing so does not step into his role as leader of the family and marriage. All good managers and executives should invite healthy discussion and even criticism, as you have rightfully pointed out in your post. Perhaps this is where Mark and other strong pastor leaders have failed in not being in tune with the exhortations and rebukes they received along the way, or worse yet, they were not open to them from the people who are closest to them.
My issue is that we as Christians cannot construct a model for marriage that “makes sense,” or even works, if it becomes unbiblical. If you are teaching to marriages who are not Christians or choose not to follow the clear teaching of scripture, then it is terrific advice, for as far as it will get the marriage. Most marriages today are looking for equality of leadership, not just respect, or love. And such equality of leadership is unbiblical and I have shown you the verses above. We cannot simply cut them out of our Bible’s because some husbands will overstep in their leadership role, or suppress their wives. Instead we must teach what true Christian husband leadership should look like, not throw it out as a failed and flawed part of the Word of God.
We must live in two different worlds if you believe that most marriages rarely argue and fight and live in constant disagreement. The women I see, and who write to me regularly are those who once they admit their desire to be in control and lead their husbands, and give it up for the sake of serving them instead, these women almost unanimously find a huge jump in their marriage satisfaction, love and intimacy. God says Christian “wives should submit in everything to their husbands” {Eph. 5:24}. Such language of submission is not an isolated verse but given multiple times in multiple ways. So as believers we must create a model for marriage that is Biblical, and yes, serving each other is Biblical, but it cannot produce the fruit that comes from a wife’s submission.
I totally agree with you when you write: “A husband leads by setting the tone and by bearing ultimate responsibility for the family,” but I also see far too many husband’s battling their wives daily to try to do this role you described. This is where our worlds are apart in that a husband cannot effectively lead, or be the spouse he is intended to be if a wife is regularly second guessing her husband, or more likely leading him. By God’s design, a husband’s leadership does not happen until his wife is willing to “place herself under” his loving guidance and protection, and such a thing most modern women are unwilling to do.
If you are teaching to women how to have a good marriage based on mutual accountability you will miss the mark set by God for a full and complete Christian marriage. The wife is always wary of her husband and is correcting his missteps which lead to the natural disaster of the state of even Christian marriages today.
To point to one more fallen hero of the faith {and I do believe that Mark Driscoll will be back strongly as a better leader and Christian because of this set back} and claim that husband leadership should not be emphasized by the church, is a far stretch. Husband leadership MUST be emphasized by the church because it is clearly Biblical, but as you point out the ideal Christian marriage sees a husband who leads his family by pulling them up alongside himself and he is asking regularly the important managerial question, “How am I doing as leader, and how can I do better?”
There is no system or ideology that when it gets out of balance will not fail. The same is true of husband leadership. Your prescription for a failing husband is what? I have yet to see a husband come out from under his wife’s criticism’s to become a better man, but I have seen hundreds of women who have willfully submitted to their failed husbands and in turn win him to become the man the always dreamed of having. Christianity is at times an upside-down way of life, and just as it is the leaders job to serve, so to it is the followers job not to jump in and lead, or regularly destroy the attempts at leadership a husband makes because she knows better. That is what I did in my marriage for far too many years, and it was only after beginning to submit, and allowing my husband to lead that God has blessed our marriage with no arguing or fighting, and lots of love and serving.
I caution you simply not to overstate your case and to keep it Biblical, even if some of God’s words are hard to understand in a modern feministic world. Christian husband leadership is not a democracy of two, but comes from a willing wife who submits to her husband not because she trusts him fully, but because she trusts God at His word. And yes, when things seem too far off base, harmful, or sinful, she is obligated by her role as wife and help meet to jump in and discuss it with her husband. No one is advocating a mousy, silent wife, but if she is always being critical she is in reality being unsubmissive.
Lori, I really think it’s a matter of emphasis. You, and others, emphasize that the man must lead and the woman must submit. I believe that in emphasizing that so much we raise the expectation that there will be tons of disagreements in marriage, and that the way to solve them is not communication and conflict resolution but instead for the woman to stand back and for the man to make the decision.
I, on the other hand, would prefer to emphasize oneness and unity and servanthood.
Both are taught in the Bible; it is not that either is unbiblical. However, I believe that in many circles, such as Debi and Michael Pearl, radical submission has been taught at the expense of real intimacy and true communication, and has harmed marriages. Jesus did not talk about leadership nearly as much as he talked about serving.
I give you Matthew 20:25-28:
Lording power over others and exercising authority excessively is not praised by Jesus, and we are not told to emulate that. Instead, we are all called to serve. If both husband and wife were committed to serving, everyone would do better.
Quite frankly, I am tired of being accused of being unbiblical because I do not share a very narrow view of radical submission. I am not saying that you are calling me unbiblical, but many have in this forum. I believe that the husband sets the tone and is ultimately accountable to God for the family; I believe that he leads. But I also believe that emphasizing this to the extent that many do obscures Jesus’ real heart for how individuals should relate to one another. The answer to most problems is not for someone to come down with a gavel and declare, “I have the authority here!” It’s for all of us to humble ourselves and serve each other. I think that’s the heart of the gospel.
Shelia,
I think why you have such a problem with certain readers questioning if your posting are biblical, is because they know that they are fighting against the tides. They cling to their view of the bible and want women to stay home and be kept under their husband’s authority. They keep pushing their agenda, because they know society is turning against submission. Women are now holding positions over men. They are doctors, lawyers, and policy makers. I don’t have anything against submission, BUT it is a woman’s decision. A small circle of women may choose submission, but the majority will not. I don’t think they are personally again you, but they are certainly against women having choices. Maybe you should limit the number of responses from the readers who are distracting your message? Just a thought. I love your blog! Keep up the good work
I allowed my wife to do what she wanted. If she wanted to work she could work and if she wanted to stay home she could stay home.
She decided to stay home and take care of the children when they were born until they started school and after that she went out and got a job for a few years until she was too sick/hurt to work.
I never question my wife’s strength. I know she don’t really need me.
This will be my last comment on any of your posts dealing with this issue, Sheila, since this is your blog and you have every right to teach what you feel is biblical. I know you love Jesus and desire to please Him with you ministry. I won’t argue this with you anymore, but I just want to say a few things before I quit. 🙂 I have some women who constantly argue with me on a certain topic I teach and it gets wearisome and I don’t want to become a burden to you.
I agree with you when you write: “Lording power over others and exercising authority excessively is not praised by Jesus, and we are not told to emulate that. Instead, we are all called to serve. If both husband and wife were committed to serving, everyone would do better.”
I have yet to mentor a woman who has a controlling husband who demands submission. I do not teach husband leadership as much as I teach wifely submission, as submission must in its be voluntary, whether to Christ, an elder or a husband. My desire is to see Christian marriages everywhere taste without fear what God clearly designs in a marriage. To point to flawed leadership as an excuse to monitor, hold accountable and be wary of a husband, seems counter to what I read and see in the Bible.
Can we not let the exceptions speak for themselves without demanding that wives everywhere be wary of giving absolute control to their godly husbands? If we must, let’s separate out the godly men from those who are not godly, but for those who are true followers of Christ Jesus, can we not announce boldly and definitively that we as godly wives desire to give them absolute leadership in our lives so that they can truly love us in turn as Christ loves the church? No buyback’s, no caveats and no caution is necessary for any truly Christian couple. Then only when or if a husband starts acting unchristian then we go seek godly wise counsel for the exception to the rule. Should we not deal with the exceptions on an individual basis between pastor, elder or godly older woman wisely counseling the wife as to what it means to “win a disobedient husband without a word, by her chaste and godly behavior?”
Out of the thousand or so of couples I know, or have heard from, it is few to none that have a difficult, domineering or demanding husband who insist on complete submission, yet I can also think of only a small number of women who have ever come to a place of true heartfelt submission to their husbands. I am still a work in progress in this area of my life married to a very godly, generous man! If there is a danger lurking for most Christian marriages it is generally not a husband who is a tyrant, as tyranny does not fit with godliness, but instead it is the subtle danger of a wife never arriving at what she truly wants in life, oneness with her husband based on God’s design for a marriage. All because she is afraid that is she throws herself fully into submission he may take advantage or she may not get her way.
P.S. I believe it is God that teaches radical submission, not the Pearls when God commands wives to be subject to their husbands in EVERYTHING!
Yes, I like to think of marriage like a company for the purposes of leadership and roles within marriage. A company has a CEO, a COO, CMO, etc… All are necessary to have a healthy company and all roles are equal. They have different functions, absolutely. However, they are all present at important meetings where decisions are made. Each has a unique outlook on the company and considers different angles when coming to a decision.
Sheila, I do not understand why people insist of saying that you are unbiblical. I also agree with trying to be one and serve the Lord in my marriage. Your teaching on marriage has greatly helped my marriage. I have a hard time understainding why people insist that the husband has to have ultimate authority and anything else igoes against God. My marriage is not a organization. It is two people working hard at serving one another and the Lord.
And I would definitely say it is excessive authority to tell your wife how to wash the dishes and then punish her when she does it differently.
Lori, I would suggest that the reason you don’t have women coming to you whose problem is a domineering, controlling husband is because such women rarely ask for help, especially if they are Christians! Such women are usually downtrodden, controlled and lacking in self-confidence. They have no mind of their own and have literally lost their critical thinking ability through years of being conditioned into thinking that this is God’s will, that this is what Godly submission looks like. How do I know? My mother is one of these women. On the other hand, the women who do ask for help are usually trying to improve themselves or their marriage and looking for Godly wisdom on how to do that.
ITA MeG. Even if such a down trodden woman reaches out to Lori, ther is a very likely chance that she will not reveal the truth of the marriage. I have seen it with my own frineds and family and I shared with Lori once on her blog how my husband and me know women who suffered greatly under a controlling, domineering husband. They did not say a word a bout it to anyone. They tried to keep it a secret because they were so ashamed. Even when they sought help they covered for there husbands and took the blame theirselves. Lori could have counseled these women and not have ever known. :*(
Meg, I know there are many women who have controlling husbands but I have never mentored one who has a husband who insists on COMPLETE submission, obeying his every whim. I am sure there are some out there, however, I teach to the majority of women who desire to control their husbands. I teach biblical Truths and not the exceptions. God is clear in His word that wives are to submit to their husbands. It doesn’t mean they never share their opinions or views. If a woman comes to me and is emotional distraught over her marriage, I encourage her to seek help by going to the elders, finding an older, godly women or even finding help from family. I can’t always be teaching to the exceptions or it would dilute the Word of God. The majority of women do not submit to their husbands and these are the women I am trying to reach. Biblical submission is a beautiful thing, contrary to other’s opinions. “Our submission to our husband, whether or not he is a Christian, whether or not he is obeying God, preaches a lovelier and more powerful sermon than our mouth ever could! “{Elizabeth George}
Lori, I read your blog, too. You almost seem legalistic about submission. By my very nature I am very introverted. I find it difficult to express myself to most people, and most especially to my husband. When I read your posts about wifely submission I get more of the same of what I already do: Shut Up, Put Up, and Cover Up. So when I disagree with my husband I shut up, put up with whatever he wants and cover up my thoughts and emotions. What I need are more posts like Shelia’s (what I probably need is counseling but I know me and I know I likely won’t), but I gravitate more to yours because through yours I can justify not communicating like I should with my husband. I had asked you once on one of your posts what submission was supposed to look like, but it was one written by Ken that I found at least some clue. I know I can’t be the only one who struggles like this.
Legalism is making up my own rules. I teach God’s Word and I have many verses to back up what I teach. I never teach “Shut up, Put Up, and Cover Up.” Women should share their concerns with their husbands for they are their husbands help meet. We are promised in God’s Word however that disobedient husbands are won without a word by their wives godly behavior. These are words from the Bible. Also, we are told good overcomes evil, to love our enemies, and to heap burning coals upon our enemies head {Pour love over them!}. I try and teach women how to share their views with their husbands without arguing and quarreling with them and insisting on being right since our husbands are God’s designated head and leader of the home.
I think here’s what the issue is, Lori. You counsel women to “share their views”–but ultimately the husband decides. Your choice of words even shows this. Women can share their views, but that’s all. So we get to speak, but we don’t converse back and forth and work to a resolution. We simply speak–and then leave it in God’s hands.
What about simply counselling conflict resolution? Isn’t that healthier and happier for everyone?
You say you know plenty of women who don’t submit, but I’m wondering what your definition is. I think that if I’m considering my husband’s feelings, working towards serving him, thinking about his preferences, doing things I know he’ll enjoy, I am submitting to him. But Keith doesn’t unilaterally decide things in our marriage. We just work things through until we’re both happily in agreement. And half the time, it’s because one of us says, “this matters so much more to you than me, and I want to honor you.” I think, by your definition, I therefore don’t submit.
But what’s a more biblical marriage? One where both people think about each other and serve each other and strive towards unity, or one where she is constantly saying, “we disagree, so you decide”? That just seems so very ODD to me. Why would we be aiming for that kind of a marriage? Why not instead aim for talking things through and working things through?
In short, I just don’t understand the emphasis on decision making, because when most people make decisions together, they actually do talk things through and look at what’s best and pray. They don’t just say, “you decide because you’re the man”. And yet this seems to be what you mean by lead and submit. Forgive me if I have misunderstood you, but I can’t think of what else you mean.
That’s just such a narrow focus, and such an odd focus to me. If couples are seriously disagreeing that often that he has to make decisions all the time, there’s a serious problem in the marriage, and telling women, “you need to submit to your husband” isn’t going to solve it. Why in the world are they disagreeing so much? I just find it so strange. Shouldn’t couples want to feel like one?
That’s where the rest of us are coming from, Lori. We want marriages where we feel like a unit, and where we work things through, not where one person decides everything because he’s the guy, and therefore you don’t do important, crucial, and healthy communication.
Sheila, I think the reason we have a hard time understanding each other is because of the men we are married to. You sound like you are married to a Mr. Steady. I am married to a Mr. Command Man. I think you and I have the same personality. We are strong and know what we want. Therefore, I spent the first 23 years of my marriage arguing with Ken because I wanted my way. I wanted him to see things from my perspective. When I realized that I wasn’t the leader of the family and I didn’t always have to have my way, I could allow him to make final decisions, we finally had peace in our marriage. Ken ALWAYS takes my thoughts and opinions into consideration. However, there are women I mentor whose husbands won’t. There has been conflict in the marriage for so many years that they are at an impasse. I teach them about submission, about pleasing their husband, about serving and loving him, about allowing him to lead and their marriages improve dramatically. I know of no other institution that doesn’t have one leader. Every institution needs one leader to have the final say. It doesn’t mean the leader doesn’t listen to those under him or that the leader is any more valuable than those under him. It simply means he has the final say. I use to think that meant the final say in the BIG things but I have learned it means in the little things also. There is peace in our home now with my Command Man. Your principles work great with Mr. Steady Men but not so great with Mr. Command Men. Also, almost every command directly given to wives in the Bible tells them to be subject to their husbands. I just have a very hard time understanding how you can’t see this or teach it.
Hi Lori,
I don’t deny those verses are there–I fully believe them and support them. But they are only individual verses, and you must look at the overall context to see the interpretation. I believe that the whole of Scripture does not support a top-down approach. When you look at the New Testament as a whole, Jesus was not advocating top-down. Jesus was advocating unity. And Paul wrote again and again about living by the Spirit, and finding unity, and love.
The New Testament theme is servanthood, not authoritarian structure. Thus, anything that sounds authoritarian must be seen in the light of what else is preached in Scripture.
My husband is actually as pig headed as I am. He is not Mr. Steady; we are both hot headed. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t use good conflict resolution strategies to come to unity.
And that’s the point of this blog: it is not saying, “as long as you are married to an easy going guy you can find unity”. It is saying NO MATTER what your individual personalities are, there are things that you can do to feel like one, to forge unity, to find resolution. And that is what Jesus was pointing us to, and what Paul was trying to elaborate on. Living by the Spirit is hard because there aren’t hard and fast rules; unity is hard. It is easier to just say, “let’s just do it your way.” But that is not the rich life that is shown.
I think this is enough of this discussion; we’ve both had our say, and I’ll let others chime in now. But I think that’s the essential difference. To me, the big picture of the New Testament is unity, servanthood, and grace; to you it is leadership and submission. It’s just different approaches, and we can agree to disagree.
Thanks and blessings!
One last comment, Sheila, and I really appreciate you having this discussion with me! Since we both have godly husbands, I am going to make the following based upon this fact.
What is the problem with a godly wife who can’t trust her godly husband enough to submit to him and TRUST his decisions? Jesus submits Himself to God. We are to submit ourselves to Jesus. Church members are to submit their selves to the elders. Why should this look any different in a marriage? I have found that TRUE intimacy has flourished in our marriage as I have learned to TRUST my husband and his decisions and submit to him.
Many blessings to you, Sheila!
Hi Lori!
There’s nothing wrong with trusting your husband–but for most of us, that would apply to about 1% of our interactions, not 99%. For instance, what if a wife feels unloved in her marriage? What if she feels exhausted and thinks she needs some help? What if she finds his mother overbearing and would like to set up some boundaries? These are the issues we deal with on a daily basis. It’s one thing if he wants to move to a new city for a job, and she doesn’t want to move, and she decides to trust him. It’s another thing when there’s a genuine hurt in the marriage that needs to be worked out. And the latter is far more common. And saying “she should submit” sounds very much like saying she should ignore her needs. Not every confrontation is about decisions, after all. Most are about day-to-day things, and in those cases, “sharing her views” and then letting him decide what they should do isn’t going to build unity nearly as much as working through these issues together, as a couple. That’s the problem.
The “submission camp”, for lack of a better word, seems to paint everything as if it’s about decisions, and the vast majority of disagreements and hurts in a marriage are not. Learning how to work things through and using these as opportunities to build unity is far healthier than saying “if he decides it isn’t a big deal, then it shouldn’t be a big deal to her”, or some such.
In most cases in marriage, it’s about serving, loving, and listening (which are all part of submission), but it’s not about submission in the decision-making aspect of it. Emphasizing the word submission sounds like using a hammer for everything, even if you don’t have a nail. When people are feeling misunderstood and hurt in marriage, saying, “the Bible says to submit” is not going to help. Showing how to share feelings and how to come to a resolution and how to figure out what is reasonable and what is not is a far better route to unity, that’s all.
I guess, Sheila, what I am saying is that I believe God teaches that the highest ideal for a godly, Christian marriage is to have a loving husband to whom his wife willfully and joyfully submits to him in everything. The Bible cannot be any more clear on this. What you’re saying is that far too many Christian couples are not married to loving husbands to whom they can submit so they need fleshly tools of communication, conflict resolution, and accountability. I am not opposed to these man-made tools and you teach them very well but as with all of God’s Word, there’s always a higher level of true faith and intimacy that comes when we aspire to do everything God’s ways. I, personally, have found that all of God’s ways work beautifully when obeyed just the way God wrote them and intended for us to live them out.
Lori, are you truly saying that communication and conflict resolution and accountability are fleshly tools–and not biblical?
Okay, that explains a lot. That’s the difference between us, then, and I’m glad we’ve got to the root of it!
Thank you, and have a great weekend.
Hi, Ken! *waves*
Sheila, I wanted to say that I appreciate the way you teach submission. Though I am a Christian, I don’t subscribe to complementarianism. However, I think the way you discuss it avoids the pitfalls that are sometimes found in complementarian theology such as enabling abuse instead of denouncing it.
So thank you for your grace regarding such a complicated and controversial topic.
Sheila, I recently heard a very smart woman describe your blog as “speaking the truth in love” and I would like to echo that here. I also really appreciate your positivity with regards to submission – I like that you encourage couples to work together as a team within the context of your complementarian theology. It is very uplifting compared to the emphasis on conflict that is so prevalent in this community.
Lori, If I’m remembering correctly, isn’t your blog directed at women who have bad marriages and want to make them better? That would explain why you would hear more people in argumentative/conflicted marriages than are likely in the general population. People in happy marriages aren’t seeking advice on marriage or looking for your blog.
That is a misunderstanding of that passage. You win an unbelieving husband without a word. Obviously you are not going to lead your husband to Christ by continuing to try to tell him why he is wrong. But, when he sees Christ-likeness in you, he may be won. That has nothing to do with lovingly talking to someone about concerns, problems or even if necessary appropriately confronting your husband. And doing those things has nothing to do with not letting him lead as you would do those same things with you boss or president.
Agreed. I’ve seen this several times on different marriage blogs and couldn’t disagree more. This expression is based on I Peter 3:1-2 and describes a husband who is an unbeliever. In addition, Peter used the phrase “those who are disobedient to the word” in I Peter 2:7-8 to describe unbelievers who reject the cornerstone, Jesus Christ. Both verses are referring to an unbeliever.
Some Christians believe that a submissive wife should never reprove her husband, however, our primary relationship with each other is brother and sister in Christ. We have a duty and an obligation to correct each other in love. That doesn’t mean we take great glee in pouncing on the other’s sin. Indeed we’re to examine ourselves for faults first. It also doesn’t mean that a wife can’t be submissive while doing this. I know in my marriage, my husband and I both have a tendency to overlook something the other can easily see. I can’t imagine not having that sort of checks and balances in a marriage and I’m sure my husband would agree. In a situation like this, if a wife didn’t say anything (assuming she shouldn’t), then a husband might continue in sin because he may not recognize it.
Yes, this is exactly my view, too. God’s desire for us is to look more and more like Jesus everyday (Romans 8:29). Too often with marriage teaching women are encouraged to act in such a way that a man can continue to act in an unChristlike manner. Acting in such a way that we all command respect (not DEMAND, command) helps people treat us well, which means that they will look more and more like Christ. Acting in such a way that a person can get away with treating us with disrespect does not point people TO Christ but AWAY from Him.
Oh, and I totally believe that those verses about unbelievers, and aren’t to be taken as guidelines about how to live our day-to-day lives with our husbands.
tbg and Elena, Can you show me where I have written that a wife can NEVER share her concerns with her husband? You are accusing me of something I have never taught nor do I believe. A wife should always express areas of concern to her husband but in a gentle, submissive way, and not continually.
1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. {I Peter 3}
These verses are very clear about a wife’s ongoing submission to her husband. We are commanded to adorn ourselves with submission! Notice the words “without a word” and “meek and quiet spirit.” These words should describe our lives with our husbands. Proverbs is full of warning of quarrelsome and argumentative wives.
Lori, with all due respect, I wasn’t accusing you of anything at all. I was simply agreeing with tbg. I didn’t specifically mention your blog either. I simply stated that I had read the “win him without a word” view on different marriage blogs and didn’t agree that it referred to a Christian marriage. Instead, I believe I Peter 3:1-2 refers to a Christian wife’s marriage to an unbeliever as does I Peter 2:7-8.
I totally agree that a Godly wife should adorn herself with submission and have a meek and quiet spirit. There’s no question about that, however, I also believe that a husband and wife are to lovingly correct one another when necessary. Submission doesn’t preclude correcting. Working through disagreements or differences of opinion isn’t wrong as long as it’s done respectfully. (This is different, imo, from the wife sharing her concerns once and then saying nothing else.). I don’t believe God wants wives to not speak up or to have no voice in their marriages. If a wife simply says nothing (“win him without a word”), then a husband won’t be held accountable and that serves no one. There are several verses which speak to helping each other become more like Christ:
Better is an open rebuke than love that is concealed. Proverbs 27:5
Love rejoices in the truth, it does not rejoice in unrighteousness. I Corinthians 13:6
If your brother sins, go to him and if he repents you have won your brother. Matthew 18:15
A book that explains this far better than I can is “Becoming a Titus 2 Woman” by Martha Peace. It even goes into more detail about how the “win him without a word” view pertaining to a Christian wife’s submission to her Christian husband is unbiblical.
I did not say NEVER, you are putting words in my mouth. I said “That has nothing to do with lovingly talking to someone about concerns, problems or even if necessary appropriately confronting your husband. And doing those things has nothing to do with not letting him lead as you would do those same things with you boss or president.”
And if you look at your own post in this thread when the issue of leadership and decision making and speaking up when a husband is doing something wrong you responded with “Win him without a word” and that has nothing to do with that issue. That is about how to lead someone to salvation not about how to deal with behavior or disagreement. That is a misinterpretation of scripture.
One thing that has always troubled me about Lori’s excellent blog is that she states that submission and winning husbands without a word can solve very serious problems. Recently, in her blog comments, a woman asked about her husband wanting her to sign a false tax return. Lori responded that she should submit.
Similarly, women write in discussing very alarming concerns: a husband’s verbal cruelty, gambling, drug abuse, mistreatment of the children, and her answer is always to submit and then pray. Or to state your views once and then pray. In reality, these serious problems are rarely solved this way. Perhaps God wants us to help ourselves.
My husband is a wonderful man, but if i just stated my view about something one time, and then remained silent, he would most likely forget about it as quick as can be! Or he’d assume that since I only mentioned it one time, it wasn’t that important.
Besides, it just doesn’t work. If a woman tells her husband he is gambling too much in 1974, and he is still doing so in 2014, is she really supposed to keep winning him without a word? Should there be silence from 1974 onwards?
Candie T. I very much agre I do not believe that God wants women to watch their Christian husbands wallow in sin or that they should follow their husband into sin. My husband was very concerened about the things he read on Lori’s blog. After dscussing it we will not be readin it or recommending it anymore. If Lori does not believe that women should passively sit by while her Christian husband sins it should be clearer on her blog. If a woman mentions it once and the husband continues in sin I believe she should approach him lieke the brother in Christ he is and rebuke him in love. I do not believe God will smile on a marriage wear the wife is violating his principals because her husband told her to. This is a root difference between our beliefs and Lori’s. We do not think that a husban’d command’s trupm God’s. If a husband says to lie to save him money the wife will be violating a commandment of God if she follows his orders. If a husband is proivoking children to wrath and exasperation through sprots a woman should speak up for her children and prevent him from causing harm to the children. My husband is a human and as a godly man he wants me to speak up and tell him if he is being too harsh on our children or sinning. If he continues in sin he wants me to approach him with love and not let him slide into worse sinning.
I’ll be married 25 years next month. There is no leader in our marriage. Yet every conflict is resolved through communication, compromise and (most important!) our desire to make each other happy.
If anything, I tend to ignore my own desires to give my husband what he wants. And he tends to do the same for me!
I suppose there are marriage where people are very stubborn and want their own way. Maybe such marriages need s leader, because they lack the maturity to communicate and compromise.
The Bible states wives can win unbelieving husbands, not disobedient. Huge difference.
I’m afraid I have to disagree with much of this. First, speaking to any leader- we do not condemn them because the world & even the church attack them- for the world and God’s people have done that to all of His prophets and even His Son.
Second, I do not know of anyone who teaches that men or pastors should have absolute authority. Those of us who believe that the husband has the authority in the home also believe he is to be accountable to other men in the church. Pastors to the board of elders, etc. No one, even the most staunch headship supporters like myself, believe that there should not be severe consequences for a husband who does not support his family, raise his kids or who beats his wife. And none of us say a believer, any believer, including husbands and wives should not have somewhere & someone to turn to that the other is accountable to.
All humans, men and women alike, sin. We do not through out the way God has set up the world,the church and the family because of it. Yes, it puts us in a position of great vulnerability and a place of possiblely great sacrifice…but He told us that was the cost to following Him and that is exactly what is required of us.
I do agree that we are to serve one another. However, it is completely false that Jesus was all about serving. He speaks about the authority given to Him much slightly more than the service He came to do.. He washed feet once & only once. Yes, He healed and preached but if you read His words He was not the warm and fuzzy gentlemen that is now taught in church. He was all about love and grace, but the fact remains that because we are relational creatures everything we do is effects someone else. So giving one “grace” is in fact taking “grace” away from someone else. If we excuse one’s behavior, we are only inflicting the pain of their grace on someone else. And that is why He spoke much more about obedience than anything else. He was not warm and fuzzy…because warm and fuzzy with sinful people wrecks pain, chaos and havoc on others.
However, we can not teach both submission and loving as Christ loves the church from the same side of the relationship. Radical submission needs to be taught to women and radical love as Christ loves the church needs to be taught to the men. However, and this is where you and I disagree quite often- the wives are not the definer of what Christ’s love is. Scripture is. You have a severe distrust of men. Most men have a severe distrust of women. Both of us rightfully so. All of us should be in obedience to Christ’s word- radically so and we wouldn’t have to worry about the authority God has given to men. Which He definetly has given. It’s only been the last 40 years that this view that it hasn’t has gained any traction whatsoever.
An egalitarian marriage makes men worse men and women worse women- and the gender teaching watered down makes us all worse christians. If in doubt, ask yourself, where in the world is the church growing? In places where these roles (and God’s Word are not watered down). Where in the world is the church shrinking? In places that accept watered down gender roles (and God’s Word is watered down).
Just food for thought. In Christ our Lord-
Thank you for your opinion and your well thought out comment.
However, I have a serious problem with people coming here and accusing me of believing things that I do not believe. You stated that I have “severe distrust of men”. No, I do not. Most of my colleagues are men. My agent is a man. My publisher is a man. My booking agent is a man. My pastor is a man. And I get along with these men extremely well and consider them friends.
And I have a wonderful relationship with my husband.
Please do not assume things about me that are not true. I do not have a mistrust of men; I think BOTH men and women tend to be guilty of different types of sins, and neither gender is perfect. If I defend women people accuse me of hating men; if I defend men, people accuse me of hating women. I do neither. I just prefer to see people as people, and as individuals, and not as classes.
In the future, when people specifically accuse me or other commenters in a personal way, that comment will be deleted. Yesterday I deleted a comment by an individual accusing one of my other commenters of being TOO conservative, so this is not a political thing. I just won’t have personal accusations and insults in the comments section.
I hope you all understand. I’m letting this through as an example, but it will be the last one with a personal insult.
“I do not know of anyone who teaches that men or pastors should have absolute authority”
Really? You need to read more widely. Check of the Christian part of the manosphere and you will see plenty of that.
This happened in my church. Our (now former) senior pastor isolated himself at the top, as you put it. In hindsight the congregation saw the signs but at the time we either didn’t notice it or looked away, because we thought it would never happen to us. This was our normal, and in our minds, it was how the church “should” be. When he did reach out for help, it was too late. Someone else was airing his secrets in public. The world knew, and there was no going back. He resigned. It was a painful and confusing time for all involved, and nobody got the luxury of privacy. There were television cameras and reporters and headlines and even a certain church group from Kansas who picketed outside our church one Sunday morning, telling us how evil we were. I used to be very self-righteous and judgmental of pastors and churches who had that happen to them. That would never happen in MY church. But then it did. So now I have compassion. There is always so much more to the story than the media portrays and, quite frankly, is able to portray or should portray. There are details we are not privy to and things that are the private business of the individuals involved. We are all human. We all mess up. We all make mistakes. Most of us get to go through those mistakes without it being front page news and without rocking the world of so many people outside of our immediate family and friends. So take it with a grain of salt. They’re human. They messed up. Pray for them. And pray for your own pastors. They’re not superhuman, after all. None of us are.
Absolutely–great admonition to pray for our own leaders! And I think to pray for ourselves, too, that we will be able to find that delicate balance between supporting those in leadership and holding them accountable. So many pastors have been so hurt by the congregation criticizing their every move–and yet the opposite extreme isn’t healthy either. Finding that middle ground is so hard.
YES!!! Thank you so much for this – and may I say you nailed it.
I have studied pastor scandals, and a lack of accountability is always a major factor. Anyone who is not accountable it asking for trouble, and trouble will hunt them down and cause great destruction. None of us are good enough to avoid it, our sin nature will win out if we live in a vacuum.
And yes, this is true in marriage as well. Some of the grosses abuses of women and children occur in closed religious communities where no one dares to question the “head of the family.” All to often this includes sexual violations.
If we ran our ministries, and our marriages, as the Bible tell us to, we would see far less of this kind of thing. Leaders take notice!
Sheila, I am a long time reader of your blog and I really agree with what you teach most of the time. That said, I have mixed feelings on this post. Quite honestly, I would say some of what you’re saying blurs the lines of a biblical marriage just as what Pastor Driscoll had done in the past, just on opposite ends of the spectrum. We all must be mindful to not twist scripture to fit our ideal or what works for us. Biblical submission is never ugly or unloving, but it can be difficult at times. To submit certainly leaves someone “over” someone else, but the thing is, if a man is loving his wife as Jesus loves the church, it’s usually pretty easy for both a husband and wife to walk in step as God intended.
Being a pastors wife myself, my heart hurts for Grace, their children, their church, and Mark. From what I have read, Mark is responding just as he should, and so we as brothers and sisters in Christ must rally around them in prayer. I think you did a great job of not bashing him. 🙂 Thank you for leading by example in that regard.
Oh, and I would recommend you read the book. It’s good stuff, really.
Thank you, Sheila. This is the most incisive analysis I have seen so far about the tragic situation with Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill. You may be aware that I recently completed my Doctor of Ministry, focusing on Strengthening Marriage. My biblical section closely analyzed Ephesians 5:21-32 and Colossians 3 http://edhird.com/2014/03/16/strengthening-marriage-bridging-emotional-cutoff/
Ed Hird+
Thank you for the link to your paper, Rev. Hird. I only have time to skim it right now, but I’m saving it to read. I already like the way you have applied Christianity to the idea of differentiation, a concept my husband and I learned (and benefitted from) reading books by David Schnarch. There is a Christian author named David Olson who has also used the ideas of differentiation to help in marriage counseling.
There is one authority that Jesus specifically taught about, why is it that no one is teaching Christians much about the authority we have over the enemy as believers? Instead it’s the authority you have over your wife. I absolutely agree, power without accountability corrupts. I believe in submission and my husband comments on how well I submit to him but mind you, it doesn’t mean I never question any of his decision and he likes that too. He likes the fact that there is a check and balance in play.
Christ didn’t have to exercise authority over us, he showered us with love and in response we submit to him. We love him because he first loved us. A husband who has a need to exercise authority over his wife has lost it. If you need to tell your wife that “the bible says you should submit to me!” then something is terribly wrong.
I really like this comment. We respond out of love – we submit out of love, because He first loved us. And because it is based on love, it isn’t even an issue. It becomes instinctive. And when we’re being stubborn, He still loves us until submission becomes instinctive to us again.
What about women who are married to an unbeliever? It is easy to speak about unity and oneness and always coming to an agreement when both spouses walk in the Lord and do their best to obey the Scriptures and love one another and serve each other, etc. But what about those marriages where the husband is not a spiritual leader? Does it mean that as a saved one I can push through my decisions because I am the one who knows God’s Word and thus knows better? Or should I as a submissive wife defer to my husband’s opinion and trust God that He will take care of my family? And I am talking about some huge major decisions. For example, I want to homeschool our daughter but he wants me to work, and also he wants to move to the other part of the country because there are more job opportunities for him there and I want to stay where we are cause my church family is here.
Another thing, I believe we, as women, tend to make decisions based on our feelings and emotions. Looking back I see a lot of examples when I wanted something because that was the way I felt. And how happy I am now that the decisions we made at that time were based on my husband’s reasonable thinking, not my emotions. Like once we almost bought a house which turned out to be a disaster later because I wanted to move in as fast as possible (I was on the 8 month of pregnancy at that time and did not want to have a baby at my employer’s house with whom I lived then). But we did what my husband said -we waited for a bit longer and now we have a beautiful house!
Biblical submission gives me freedom! It is like taking God at His word! I absolutely trust God that He takes care of everything even through my unbelieving husband when I humbly submit to him.
Commit your way to the LORD,
Trust also in Him, and He will do it. (Psalm 37)
Hi In,
There’s no doubt it’s so much harder when we do have an unbelieving spouse! That is a difficulty.
My thought when it comes to big decisions is that you have to take a step back and do what’s best for the family. Homeschooling is a huge family commitment, and you really can’t do it unless everyone is on board. And if he has job prospects elsewhere, but not at home, I think you have to trust God that He will help you find another great church family. I know that’s difficult, because it means grieving what you’ve dreamed of for your family and your children (especially with the homeschooling), but finding a good job where he can support the family is such a key thing, and if he is taking the initiative to find out where that is, I really would honor that.
And no, you can NEVER pull the “I know God and you don’t so I have an inside scoop on truth so I should decide.” That’s just plain mean, and will seem totally bizarre to him. You have to come to agreement, and sometimes that means asking God to change your heart and let go of your dreams because your husband can really see what’s better for the family. And if it ISN’T better for the family, then you just have to trust God that He will show that to your husband.
Thank you, Sheila!
“When we focus so much on the fact that the husband has all the power to make decisions, and the wife must obey without question, we lose the beauty of what marriage was supposed to be.”
Exactly! I believe those who dwell on the man being in charge in the marriage relationship are definitely missing out on what God had in mind. We’re to serve each other, period. Yes, God gave us different and complementary roles yet the big picture (of service, oneness and unity) suffers when leadership and submission are the focal points. I also suspect that those who dwell on this aspect are more invested in being in charge than in servanthood. Call me jaded, but I’ve seen it time and again.
Re: Mark Driscoll, my feelings very much mirror yours. I don’t know this man, however, I’ve read enough about him to know there are many who were hurt badly under his leadership and it angers me that this gives Christianity a black eye. I’ve also suffered spiritual abuse and it can be devastating and difficult to overcome. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and even men of God need accountability (or rather I should say, ESPECIALLY men of God need accountability).
Absolutely. Thanks so much–and totally agree with your last sentence (ESPECIALLY people of God need accountability).
As someone who writes, that verse that “those who teach will be judged with greater strictness” is really scary. And that’s why we do need accountability–those who know us in person to come alongside us and pray for us and speak into our lives. We should never isolate ourselves.
One more thing: My husband and I have always believed that if needed, we should correct each other in love. He has told me that if he elevates himself to a position so high above me that he is cut off from any correction, than he’s the one who loses out. It should be this way with any leadership role.
Sheila, thanks for tackling this. Sometimes I am not in agreement with you, but you always approach your topics with thoughtfulness and respect for all. I agree 100% when you said, “He called men who didn’t take power in their marriages a derogatory term for women I can’t even print here. In fact, he used so many derogatory terms for women I felt my skin crawl. Would Jesus ever have said anything like that?”
Mark Driscoll made my skin crawl, too. He was a bully, using incredibly cruel and derogatory terms for men and women that he felt did not fit his stereotypical ideal. Remember what Jesus said: “…for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.” Luke 6:45b.
Yes, it really did shock me–especially since so many spoke so highly of his marriage book.
Perhaps he has changed since he wrote those words, and his 8 points in his speech when he stepped down did show humility. I do pray that God speaks to him and that he does listen, because God can redeem.
And what I really hope is that he will go public and say that men and women are equally worthy of respect, and that women should not be bullied. If he were to say that loud and clear that would likely help a lot.
Sheila,
Thank you for speaking what you did and having the courage to say it with clarity and respect. There is great integrity there as there is in every opinion expressed here in so much as that person’s desire is to glorify God and exalt the Name of Christ.
I want to say that I whole-heartedly agree with your emphasis on ‘submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.’ When such a poignant phrase as ‘reverence for Christ’ is mentioned it is a clear declaration that ought to frame all other thinking. So, in marriage, we exalt Christ through laying ourselves down for the other. My husband is called to love me as Christ loves the church and lays his life down for her…he will be the first to say that this is an awesome responsibility and one he is powerless to do without fixing His eyes on Christ–Savior, Lord, Redeemer. The One worthy of everything. And I am to respect him and I am the first to say that I cannot do this to the level commanded without my gaze being fixed on Christ. It is a respect that honors and sees the work of God over a lifetime in my husband. It is a respect that loves Him enough to speak bold words as his sister and the one called to walk intimately with him in all ways in this life. It is a respect that is always humbling me and breaking me in the deep places as I see his pursuit of Christ so that he might love me.
As you know, my husband and I serve as overseas missionaries. The longer that we walk in ministry, the more holy trepidation we feel to step forward in growth of ministry or in assigned leadership roles because it is an awesome privilege. It is designed to display the Gospel before a lost world and yet, when abused, has great power through the Enemy to hurt our co-workers and young believers and the cause of Christ before the world. Those of us who are in ministry–essentially all believers–ought to be filled with an increasing sense of our need to depend on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to do anything. If we think we can do it or set a course through a rigid picture of what it is all to look like, then, we leave no room for the transforming work God is constantly seeking to do in us as He weans us from our dependence on ourselves so that in our humility from our hearts we can say, ‘to God be the Glory. Great things He has done.’
Thank you, Abby, for pointing us to Jesus. That’s beautiful.
Thank you for this post! Yes, Jesus taught and modeled servant leadership and if we truly desire to be like Him that is what we will do regardless of our gender. Galatians 3:27-28 “For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
They didn’t take his life. “Jesus” he gave his life. He ultimately had the power to choose. I believe that’s the message here. We are to give 100% to each other. I believe
God has given me certain responsibility as a husband. And ultimately if I don’t fulfill my responsibility, I will be held accountable as the head of my home. So what is required of me? provide, nurture, love, and give 100% of myself to my wife, and family. I love, and esteem my wife, and family far greater than I do myself, and only when I follow the teachings, examples, of Christ, and give what Christ has given to me, it is only then that my marriage is rewarded with true love and happiness.
The remainder of my post. I do beleive Mark Driscoll, was a false prophet! He exploited sex, women, etc, for nothing other than selfish gain!
Oooo thank you Sheila! I so agree with everything you have said here, and it is particularly relevant to my church situation at the moment. We’re only a relatively small group and our issues will never attract national media coverage, but we have this very situation playing out in miniature with a very dominant elder finally standing down after years of abuse of power. Interestingly, he also is a strong contender for the extreme view of submission and his wife has absolutely no voice at all. She believes that to admit he has been guilty of wrong doing would be unsubmissive! So she sticks her head in the sand and cries about how terribly he has been misunderstood and how cruel we all are. Ghastly!
Sheila,
I can’t express how much I appreciate you sharing this. Thank you so much. I absolutely believe in submitting to my husband but I have seen such utterly shocking interpretations of this concept that this was a much needed post. I am not a minor child who needs a daddy to punish, discipline me and tell me how to clean the dishes. Nor do I blindly obey anyone but Christ and the Word of God. I have been deeply disturbed by the post on some of the submission blogs out there. Thank you for being a Biblical voice of reason.
Sheila, another great article. The comment section is pretty interesting too.
I do have a few thoughts / questions: Since this letter was originally written to the church in Ephesus, is it safe to assume that this was a particular problem this group of believers was facing? I mean perhaps Paul had to emphasize not only the submitting to one another, but delve in deeper because in their culture this was where the women had the most room to grow. And consequently the men had to learn how to really love their wives. So its not so much a command for all Christians, but practical help for those struggling with this specific issue.
My next question, even if someone does think that the idea of the man being in charge, because all women must submit to their husbands is in fact meant for all Christians, well about about just a few verses later in Ephesians 6:5-9 when detailed instructions are given on how to treat our slaves. Well, by that logic would that mean that it is Biblical to have slaves. Wait, not only OK biblically but must be seen as a command – lets all go out and get some slaves, right after all the women blindly submit to their husbands. Hhmmm… sometimes its tough when we read more then just the convenient verses. Sadly such verses probably were used to keep people enslaved not too long ago in our human history. And now are keeping some women “enslaved” by enforcing a cruel submission.
Back when we were dating we went to a wedding where this submission passage was read. My now-hubby turned to me and kind of laughed, because he knew I would never be a submissive wife. I’m a spitfire and he loves that. Now, mind you of course we have problems and there are times I could show my love with more acts of service, which I think my husband would love, but he would never want me to just submit to him blindly. Our marriage, life and family are built too much as a team for that.
See, my husband though comes from a family with many strong women for various generations. He is not scared or intimidated by a strong woman at all. And he was allowed to witness many good, healthy marriages between these strong women and their wonderful husbands.
Lastly, it all comes down to our leadership style. Back before being a Mommy I worked in management. My own personal style was that I never acted like I had absolute power of my department. First of all I knew I had bosses watching me. Secondly instead of being scared to hire assistant managers with experience I knew this would benefit the department. Yes, at the end of the day it would have been my head on the chopping board as I did carry the responsibility, but because I trusted my team we did a great job. But not all managers are like that. And neither are all husbands. Its sad because it seems those that approach life as a team experience more success.
I think I’m in the minority here, but I really like Mark Driscoll. The comments he made on the church website were over 10yrs ago and he has apologized numerous times for them. He knew they were wrong and he has admitted that. They were also at a very different time in his life where he was self-admittedly angry, and did not have a good relationship with his wife where, again, he admits in several sermons, colored his thinking on women, marriage, and sex. He has since then changed his views. Him and his wife’s marriage is in a better place thanks to God’s grace. If you read his books and listen to his sermons, he talks very highly of women and puts an importance on sex that is biblical. He speaks against abuse towards women and and men and his church has redemption groups for people who have suffered from sexual abuse. He preaches on a biblical view of marriage where the man is head of the house and the women is to submit, but emphasizes that if both are following God, then both roles will be joyfully performed. He does speak of the fact that in a marriage we should serve each other, I think he has a whole chapter on that in his book Real Marriage.
I don’t agree with some of the things he’s done, and I think it’s good that he’s taking some time away from ministry to regroup and hopefully get some help, but I respect him as a pastor. Every message I listen to preaches from the Word and the Gospel is spelled out clearly for anyone who has ears to listen. My prayer is that once he’s taken a break, sought forgiveness for whatever he’s done wrong, that his church family will accept him back and he can go back to preaching God’s word, sharing the gospel and lives around the world being changed.
Sarah, I agree!
I’m honestly more discouraged by the response, in large, by the Christian community toward him than I am by his past offenses – which, as you pointed out, he has already (numerously) confessed, apologized and sought forgiveness for. We must stop elevating pastors to a place where we expect perfection from them. When we do that we are also responsible for their isolation “on top”. Yes they are men of God, but they are still merely men.
Jess,
True he’s confessed, apologized, and sought forgiveness for things he’s said and done…but part of REPENTANCE is the exhibition of “fruits” (Fruits meet for repentance… Matthew 3:8)
If Repentance is big ole tree, then that tree has to produce something bountiful. And if you’re a tree, or even a bush, when people see it, they shouldn’t have to look too hard to see the fruit…for can we not see those lovely Tropicana oranges from a pretty good distance? 🙂
The brother’s tree JUST got planted…it’s going to take probably more than a season to produce good fruit. It’s just that way for all of us, unless we’ve been somehow quickened by the Holy Spirit…and that, while not impossible – is quite rare.
Stephanie says:
“I like that you encourage couples to work together as a team within the context of your complementarian theology.” (sorry, for some reason there wasn’t a reply button next to her quote, so I’m quoting it here)
Just wanted to say “Amen” and thank you for your thoughtful article. It’s always a dicey thing to write about tough issues. Sheila, you’ve done a great job of responding to comments and you’ve given us the opportunity to think and challenge what we believe.
As to Mark Driscoll, my perspective is that God is growing him up and he has made a fairly radical change over the last few years. He outed himself in a book and has openly acknowledged that he was in the wrong. While his earlier attitudes totally creep me out, I have to respect his willingness to own his mess.
I guess what I’m saying is that I see God working in His body to change how we see and value women. It’s going to be a messy journey, but a necessary one if we are going to have a healthy body.
Shiela, as is quite typical for me, I heartily agree with your thoughts with regard to this post and it’s comments. Over the years, I have learned immense amounts about submission, communication, boundaries, etc. within the context of marriage. God’s “rules” are very basic – love Him and love others (something that 1 Corinthians sheds more light on). As you often point out, it is not loving to let someone be irresponsible with their own life or the lives of others. I cannot sin and then blame it on the fact that my husband wanted me to do that thing and I have to submit to him – it says so in the Bible! Hmm…speaking of the Bible, that sounds a lot like what Adam and Eve both did. It seems as though that first story of getting caught eating the fruit and then passing on the blame clearly illustrates the need for honesty and taking responsibility for one’s own actions. I rarely find the need to “submit” to my husband, but if the “need” arises and he has prayerfully considered his options…I also prayerfully consider my own options. If my husband’s decision does not fall out of line with God’s word and I do not specifically believe God does not want me to follow, I go along with him, even if it isn’t my first choice.
Wow! Can’t believe I read the WHOLE thing…
To submit or not to submit? (Long comment ahead!)
For me, this issue is purely situational. I, personally, would never marry a man who demanded or even ‘overemphasized’ the concept of submission (and I, too, have read the Pearl’s book…definitely NOT my cuppa tea!). We have discussed (exhaustively) every aspect of marital governance/politics/roles, etc. We are in agreement with what we want our marriage to look like, what we want to accomplish by our union…advancing the Kingdom of God, and where we see God’s heart in our relationship. In our many hours of Word-study, banter, and prayer we have come to the same conclusion as Sheila and her husband….if serving one another in submissive love was/is good enough for Jesus…(you know how the rest of that statement goes!). Who among we ladies would think anything when approached by our Savior but to immediately place ourselves in a submissive posture….I, for one, would be flat on my face in a gnat’s heartbeat! That beautiful picture of Jesus’ final act before His eternal victory is one of absolute Humility….He actually placed Himself physically lower than His students while washing the dust from their well-worn feet! If today’s Christian husbands adopted that kind of humility, their wives would gladly ‘subject’ themselves out of a deep love, respect, and trust – the law of ‘gravity’ applies even to the Spirit realm, blessings pour down, from God to His people, from husband to wife, from parent to child. We desire for our marriage to be a contemporary illustration of Jesus and Peter (I’d be Peter!)….each one out-humbling the other! Lovely imagery, there! 😉
On a somber note: Recently, through a series of random events, it came to my knowledge (through a Google search) that an older man that was attending a small group in the home of my closest friend and her husband, was, in fact, a convicted child sex offender (Tier 3, as he violated two little unrelated girls, ages 7 and 8 over 40 times in the basement of his home) and was also attending their church where they both are in leadership! As I am very close to this family (which includes a young adult special needs daughter), I immediately went to my friend with print-outs of the info on this person. She responded (prior to reading the info) that they knew he had been released from prison in March ’13 for child sex offense but that he explained the circumstances and they were “greatly exaggerated” from the truth! His story? It was one 16 year old (incidentally, 16 is the age of consent in our state!), one touch, one time!!! I patiently, with nearly gritted teeth, requested her to read the info, she was surprised. I asked if the Sr Pastor knows, my friend said that the Pastor and his wife had been informed of the crime/sin (offender’s version) just before he was brought into church (with no parameters placed around him). After 3 months of asking what was being done….communication to parents, confronting offender about deception, policy in place….I wrote a letter to the Regional Pastor (Overseer) for this Fellowship, waited another month, consulted my prayer warrior ladies, and finally contacted our local Child Protective Services (as the church was in violation of our local laws concerning ‘harboring’ a sex offender ie allowing unrestricted access, not vetting, no ‘chaperone’, etc.). No idea what, if anything, has come of that.
Unfortunately, my friend, her husband, the Pastor and his wife have chosen still to deny the obvious, protect the children, engage this man in seeking freedom from the bondage of sexual perversion, and place safeguards so this cannot happen again! In all of it, I lost my friendship with my friend and her family, the remainder of church leaders and their families, and a few ‘wanna-bes’ just outside the leaders clique (literally 18 people ‘unfriended’ me in one day on fb! The modern-day barometer, it would seem 🙁 ).
Sad to report: two little girls have been violated (one from the church, one the visiting granddaughter of a woman of the church he’d been dating, whom the four leaders felt hadn’t the ‘right’ to know about this man’s weakness)! Finally, the Police were called by the parents of the girl attending the church, offender is back in our county lock-up (where my friend’s husband met him in ’10 while engaging in his ministry to the incarcerated). Apparently, the story being put out is that “he is innocent but because I insisted on communicating with those in authority over the church and ‘word’ got out, this is nothing more than a lynch mob”.
My former friend’s wrong-thinking in March ’13: Submission to her husband!!!
In the past I’d seen where she struggled with yielding to him when she truly felt he was on the wrong track. I believe her policy is to disregard ‘having her way’ on the small stuff but the big stuff she will pursue privately with him. He is afflicted with pretty severe ADHD which has never been diagnosed but is so completely obvious to those around him, I’ve seen it for 10 years and spoke to both of them about it some time ago. In accordance with that issue, he tends to make decisions VERY impulsively and without all the details necessary for sound decision-making….yes, he is a romantic at heart! However, that is the crux of this terrible situation….he didn’t do his homework, plain and simple. Nor did he speak to anyone outside of themselves (outside the church) for knowledge, wisdom, insight, etc. For instance, had they informed me last year of the potentiality of a man of his background attending their small group and also the church, I’d have steered them toward a friend of mine from College days who is both a highly educated therapist AND an Evangelical Pastor’s wife (2 for the price of 1!) and another friend who is a Christ-centered Attorney….Yes, I said “Christ-centered” and “Attorney” in one sentence! LOL Both of these women are of the highest integrity and, most importantly, don’t have a ‘dog in this race’ (they know none of the people involved and have no affiliation with this particular church). And as far as the church, the buck stops at the Pastor as to the blind access this man was given…no matter whose ‘opinions’ were being echoed back and forth landing in his lap.
For some very frustrating reason, my friend chose to follow her husband’s exceedingly reckless behavior in the early days of this saga….and in the months since I brought the truth to her and them. I believe she’s been so obtuse about the whole thing and has participated at the top of the leadership structure of the church in vilifying me and with gossip-mongering and slander has assigned me as the scapegoat because of her deeply-rooted anger….at her husband, at God! I am expendable! She risked ‘submitting’ and it all just blew up! Her husband hasn’t lost, the Pastor hasn’t lost (yet), I have lost MANY ‘friends’, and she has lost greatly…her dignity, self-respect, integrity, and I was the only person in her life who would take her 31 year old ‘special’ daughter with me for weeks at a time to give her 55 year old Mum (they’re British) much-needed respite and ‘marriage refreshment’ time! 😉
So, in all, I stand on the Word of God! I regret none of my actions in this and pray fervently for my ‘friends’ and for Jesus to be glorified in this seemingly sad story. Most of all, I pray for the, now, 4 little victims of this man, and that somehow they would come to the healing embrace of their Savior. Let it be, Lord!
PS As a soon-to-be wife, my intended is fully aware of this story as, like myself, he at one time attended this church and has walked alongside through it all. I did, however, use this to express to him that in a matter such as this, if he were to choose as my friends did, I would definitely share with him the lack of wisdom in that, and if he still insisted, I would ‘smash his prized Martin’ (he’s a worship leader! lol) Seriously, I would NOT remain quiet! His response to me: “It is precisely that tenacity toward standing on the Word, seeking only Truth, and desiring to bear His image that has me praising our God that very soon you will be mine forever!” Jealous much? 😀
Thank you for your time ladies and please lift up this church in Annapolis, MD, it’s leaders, staff, the body, and mostly, this man and his four ‘survivors’….my <3 grieves for them, and I know Jesus does too!
Thank you for sharing TamLeen, and for doing the right thing!
Preach it sister!!! Excellent, well written post! Thank you : )