I get a lot of flak about submission on this blog.
Whenever I write about resolving conflict, or areas in which husbands and wives disagree, I get taken to task in the comments for not telling women to submit more.
I find this rather strange. To so many, it seems as if submission in marriage is the ultimate goal of the relationship.
Oneness is the goal of marriage; submission is a tool to get there. It is not the end, in and of itself.
But I think what I mean by submission and what some other people mean by submission are really two different things. I consider submission when I care about my husband’s needs first; when I think about what he may want or need, and I sacrifice something to meet that need. I consider submission when I pray God’s will for his life.
Yet to some people, it seems the only definition of submission that matters is that when you have a difference of opinion, she defers to him.
This really irks me, because to me, that’s a failure. Using that definition of submission, I’ve never submitted to my husband, because when we have had differences (and we had major ones, like deciding whether or not to have our son have life-threatening surgery, or deciding whether to move, or deciding what to do about jobs, children, etc.), we’ve always worked it through. We’ve never, ever said that because he thinks it’s one way, that’s the way it is.
To us, deciding to do things “his way” when we had a disagreement would have meant that we had failed, because the goal is oneness.
And usually, when we work it through, we come to a solution that neither of us even envisioned in the beginning. We find a win-win. Other times, just by talking about it, I realize that I was totally off-base, or he realizes that he was, and it’s all good. We feel like we’re one, like we’re a team, like we’re intimate and on the same side. And it’s wonderful.
And so I can never really understand the women who take pride in saying, “I let him make all the decisions, even if I think he’s wrong.” To me, that’s a cop out. If you think he’s wrong, you have an issue in your relationship. One of you–or both of you–is not listening to God. Why should we be proud of that? Why should we not instead wrestle through it together, and with God, until we’re cheerfully on the same page? If you’re always deferring to him, then you could easily be preventing oneness, not enhancing it. And you could be keeping both of you from hearing from God. (I wrote a three-part series on handling differences and submission here). Sometimes we must decide to let things go for the sake of the marriage, but I don’t believe this is a victory. This is done often in sadness because you aren’t one and you aren’t on the same page. And so prayer for God to be more evidenced in both of your lives is the only proper response when that has to be done.
I really, really worry about the strain in Christian marriage thinking that women must obey their husbands at all costs, and that the GOAL of marriage seems to be this hierarchical relationship which I do not see in Scripture. And so when I was sent Larry Crabb’s new book, Fully Alive: A Biblical Vision of Gender That Frees Men and Women to Live Beyond Stereotypes, I was excited to read it.
Larry Crabb definitely believes in male leadership, but he says that most terms that we use when referring to gender–submission, masculine, feminine–need a serious biblical scrubbing.
And he proceeds to do that in this refreshing book.
He opens it telling the story of his parents, who grew up in the typical Christian culture where the dad led, and the mom cooked and cleaned and stayed in the background. In his case, his mother had a very good career, and in her job she made decisions and was treated with respect. But when she came home, she became almost invisible, because that’s what a Christian woman was supposed to do.
His dad, on the other hand, prayed and led devotions and was a wonderful leader.
But as his mom aged, and developed Alzheimer’s, some of her real feelings started to surface. And she was often very distraught–“am I any good to anyone?” she would say.
Crabb says,
I never saw Dad looking at Mother with eyes that wondered, Who is this remarkable woman? What can I do, who can I be, that would encourage her to freely give everything within her for God’s kingdom, for God’s glory, for her joy, for the blessing of others?
No, his dad saw his mom in relation to himself. And that viewpoint hurt both of them.
When Crabb married he had the typical view of male headship: his wife would obey him, and thus he was responsible for both her and himself. At first this was a heady feeling of power, but he soon became terrified. Could he make all the decisions? Would he always be right? What if he led her astray? And slowly but surely he started to see that his wife had a brain, too. And she had amazing giftings. And God had given her to him as a “suitable helper”, meaning that she was suitable to help him make those decisions, as he guided the family. He didn’t have everything on his shoulders–indeed, that’s why God gave him his wife, so that he WOULDN’T have everything on his shoulders.
And both of them found that they flourished in their marriage and in their giftings and relationship with God when they stopped trying to play “who’s the boss” and started trying to figure out how they could encourage each other to be “fully alive”.
I really appreciated this book. He spends the first part talking about submission, and the latter half talking about real masculinity, real femininity, and the unique fears and threats that both genders face. As I read it I thought he was spot on. In women’s quest for relationship, for instance, we often bowl men over and become harsh, critical, and even nagging, even when we don’t mean to be. We just want to be helpful. But this urge to make things right can lead to us storming in where we shouldn’t. I know I’m dreadfully guilty of this.
But men’s urge to be consequential and purposeful can similarly lead to them backing down and becoming overly passive when they fear they won’t succeed.
There are lots of other fears and threats, but those are the ones that most resonated with me. And through it all, Crabb shows us biblically what the real calling is for the masculine and the feminine, and how they were meant to work together and complement each other, not to be the same and not to have one be dominant.
I also appreciated his discussion about submission, because to him, you can’t separate the idea of submission from the idea of a “suitable helper”.
While some people, like Debi Pearl, see helper in a very subordinate way, Crabb sees it as an empowering role. God made us fully human, and gave us unique giftings so that we could help our husbands in their own roles and in their spiritual lives. After exploring this in great detail, looking at the passages in both Ephesians 5 and 1 Peter, he concludes with this:
A woman once asked me if she should submit to a husband who wanted her to have sex with another man. I replied, “Of course. Submit in everything. Tell him no, gently and quietly.” Another woman asked me if she should cosign loan papers that she knew contained misinformation. Her husband wanted her to sign. Should she submit? I answered, “Yes. Submit in everything. Refuse to sign, gently and quietly.”
If that makes no sense to you, I encourage you to read the book, which I found really illuminating. He puts the focus back where it should be: how can we each serve God the most fully? How can we become all that God wanted us to? How can we become fully alive?
Whether we are married or not, God wants us each to be fully alive as masculine and as feminine. And in marriage, part of the blessing of that relationship is that we can help each other become fully alive. I can encourage Keith in his giftings, and he can encourage me. And in the marriage relationship, I see where I am flawed. I see where I have the tendency to not be gentle and quiet. I see where I often try to bowl other people over. God can use our marriage to help make me more gentle, more humble, more teachable. But I also can help sharpen Keith. “Iron sharpens iron”, and we are to be iron for each other.
Too many Christians seem threatened by the thought that women may have ideas or opinions that can sharpen their husbands. I have had a man comment on this blog that he always reads the blog first, to be sure that the post is suitable, before he lets his wife read it. That attitude is the exact opposite of everything Crabb says, and of everything I believe–and more importantly, what I believe Scripture says. Sure, men who do this can say, “I consider my wife a princess. I love her dearly. I respect her more than anything,” but if you don’t also encourage her to think, and respect her opinions, and allow her to express herself, then your words are not evidenced in your actions.
Women are made as suitable helpers, and the Hebrew word for helper has no connotation of subordination, because it’s used to refer to God as well.
We are uniquely made to encourage our husbands, sharpen our husbands, and inspire our husbands. If a husband is making sure that a wife doesn’t have an independent thought, or telling her that she can’t think certain things or go certain places without his permission, then they are not a team. He isn’t respecting the giftings and the brain that God also gave her. He may say that he’s just protecting her, but what he’s really doing is not giving proper credence to the thought that she may have something to teach him–that God may want him to sit back and listen to her for a change. That God made her to be HIS HELPER–and perhaps she has something to help him learn, too.
Yes, submit. Yes, women, pray about how you can encourage your husband as he leads the family. Yes, consider his needs first and look for ways to bless him. Yes, work on being gentle and quiet. Definitely respect him, admire him, and tell him how much you appreciate him. But most of all, be fully alive for God TOGETHER. Be one–as you also are masculine and feminine–as God made you to be.
Let’s not waste people’s giftings and smoulder a wonderful spirit because a woman, in certain versions of Christianity, is less than a man. That is not biblical. The more people believe it, the less powerful we will be in spreading God’s kingdom, because we’ll be ensuring that 50% of the Christian population isn’t allowed to become fully alive and to express their own God-given gifts.
See more about Fully Alive here.
Book has been provided courtesy of Baker Publishing Group and Graf-Martin Communications, Inc.
Available at your favourite bookseller from Bethany House, a division of Baker Publishing Group
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Sheila Wray Gregoire has been married for 29 years and happily married for 24! She loves traveling around North America with her hubby in their RV, giving her signature "Girl Talk" about sex and marriage. And she's written 7 books. About sex and marriage. See a theme here? Plus she knits. Even in line at the grocery store.
Oooooh have you ever opened a huge can of worms and I LOVE it! 🙂
This is a journey my husband and I have been on. And our marriage today is so much stronger, healthier, and happier for it. You know what the most important thing in our marriage is? It’s not me being submissive to my husband. It’s both of us being submitted to GOD. When we are both individually submitted to God first in every situation, in every discussion, in every disagreement, everything else becomes a non-issue. My husband is not in charge of our household. I am not in charge of our household. God is in charge of our household. Period. If we’re operating outside of that, we end up in trouble.
There is no power struggle here. There is no me feeling repressed and like my opinion doesn’t matter or like I can’t have my own thoughts. There is no my husband feeling threatened by me. There is only us striving to serve God and serve each other.
That’s beautiful, Melissa.
Well said, Melissa. I agree 100%! If my husband and I are not both submitted to God, then if either of us make a decision and expect the other one to just go ahead with it, we’re in trouble!
I love your take on submission. The book sounds really interesting! The thing I have found about submission, that you also pointed out, is that I have a tendency to be overbearing and disrespectful, when I would rather be kind and respectful of my husband’s opinion — in effect, treating him like a whole, really, valuable person. It’s amazing that respect, the kind I would treat near-strangers with, can slip away when talking to someone I love so much. Yikes.
I think my main problem with how the submission message is often presented is that it’s so unbalanced. People either sway towards submission being irrelevant and oppressive to women (although apparently loving a wife isn’t equally irrelevant and oppressive to men) OR they think, like you said, that submission is the main goal of marriage. I really don’t think you can talk about submission without talking about the man’s role in marriage – to love his wife. At the same time, I think there are times when one or both partners is not fulfilling their calling to love or submit and that’s the hard part; we aren’t exempt from submitting to a husband who isn’t acting in a loving way and a husband isn’t exempt from loving and serving a nasty disrespectful wife. Sure, there are clearly problems there but sometimes you just have to plod along in obedience to what God has called you to do, praying all along that God will bring you both back to that goal of oneness.
I don’t know if you’ve ever read the Keller’s marriage book, but you’ll appreciate how they talk about decision making and gender roles in the appendix: “The husband’s authority (like the Son’s over us) is never used to please himself but only to serve the interests of his wife…A wife is never to be merely compliant but is to use her resources to empower…A wife is not to give her husband unconditional obedience…Assuming the role of headship is only done for purposes of ministering to your wife and family.”
Elizabeth,
Loved your comment. It was great. Just thought that instead of saying , “nasty disrepectful wife”, you could have just said a wife who is not being respectful. I don’t mean any harm Elizabeth, I guess I have a dislike for the word “nasty”, because on another female writer’s site, where wives are continually scolded and put down, the female owner of the site, uses the word nasty, among other negative expressions and terms, when referring to women’s behaviors towards men. Otherwise your comment was very enjoyable.
To the author and owner of the site, thank you for providing a marriage site where women can come and be treated with dignity.So many of the other marraige sites are very hostile and demeaning to wives/women. But this site/blog is very classy. I will spread the word to my friends.
I really appreciate this view. When I got married, I had the old fashioned view of him making all the decisions in my mind. In our marriage, sometimes, my husband pushes me to make some decisions because he values my expertise/knowledge/opinion of some issues. For a while I thought that we were being “unchristian” because I was “leading,” but it is submission to help my husband see different sides of an issue and to not withhold the gifts God has given me, especially when my husband is actively asking me to use those gifts to help our lives.
Interesting post! I would love to read that book – it sounds really good.
I think, although I agree with almost 100% of what you write, that you and I may differ a little bit on the submission issue. My husband is a wonderful, kind, sensitive man. He would never ask me to do something sinful in the name of submission. He always asks my opinion, and we work hard to make all decisions together. There is the underlying understanding, though, that if we were not able to come to an agreement on some issue, he has the veto power. I can’t actually think of a time when he’s had to use it off the top of my head, but we both know that it’s a possibility. There have also been a couple of pretty big issues that we just weren’t sure what decision to make. We both prayed, read scripture, sought wise counsel, and talked endlessly about the issues. Ultimately, I asked him to make the final decision, and I feel total peace and comfort with the decisions he made, because God made him the head of our family, and I trust his judgement.
Another part of submission/respect for us is that I believe it’s my role make his ministries a priority. Sometimes that means I’m at home watching the kids so he can be out serving, even though I may ideally like to be out serving, too. Of course, sometimes we could get a babysitter and serve together, but obviously, that isn’t possible every single time. I find a lot of joy in supporting him in this way.
I love remembering that “suitable helper” is such an honoring title – the same one used for God when he is our “helper!” It isn’t demeaning and shouldn’t be seen as such. We’ve learned over the last 7 or so years that there is a Biblical guideline for love/respect/servant leadership/submission in marriage, but not every couple will look exactly the same way following that model. I’m so thankful to serve a God who gives us freedom within those guidelines!
Sounds exactly what our aim for our marriage is.
I totally agree with you! This is our marriage too. We are very comfortable with him leading because he so rarely makes the decisions by himself. And I have found that he is usually right, his decisions are good and I can really trust him.
I have struggled through this issue myself, having felt the call to ministry but being part of a church that doesn’t welcome women to teach. I read the book “Beyond Sex Roles” by Gilbert Bilezikian. He did a great job of moving through the Scriptures from the beginning of the Old Testament through the end of the New. The one thing that really stuck with me was that the word used for “helper” when describing Eve is the same word that is used later to describe God as our helper. Like you said, there is no sense of subordination. My job as my husband’s helper is to help him be all that God created him to be. And he is to do the same for me. I am blessed to have a husband who has never asked me to “obey” him, but to walk along side him in everything.
Hi, one thing in your comment caught my attention and I wanted to mention couple of things.
You are called to a ministry, but you are not allowed to teach. I don’t know what was the ministry you felt called to, but I would say 95% of Christian ministry opportunities don’t require you to stand in front of the church and teach.
If I were you, I would find out the places where help is needed most,roll up my sleeves and jump in. Or I would start visiting old, sick and needy that are part of my church or my neighborhood, encourage them, meet their needs, pray for them and with them and I’m sure there will be opportunities to use your knowledge of the Word to help others see the truth as well (teaching). Or I would spend time in prayer asking God to reveal a place where I could use my gifts for His glory.
Being able to teach the whole congregation before you can say that you have a ministry sounds to me that you have an excuse, that you are not willing to serve unnoticed and without being (publicly) appreciated.
I’m sorry if I sound harsh, but these are things I have been struggling too and the words I have been saying to myself as well!
May Jesus be near you as you look for ways to worship Him in ministry! .
I know what you’re saying, Hannah, but one of the gifts of the Spirit is teaching, and Angela may very well have it. It could also very well be that Angela has ALREADY been involved in serving as you have said. Most of us have, and she gave no indication that the only thing she wants to do in a church is teach. It’s just that she likely has the spiritual gift of teaching, as many women do, and I understand her struggle.
I’d just encourage you to be careful about making assumptions, because you’re being quite harsh to her by saying that she wants to stand up in front of a congregation before she has served. But you don’t know anything about how she has served, so just be careful, because that can come off as quite hurtful in a blog comment.
Thank you!
Thanks for sharing this. You will probably take a fair amount of flak for it, so thanks for taking on a difficult topic. Discussions on this topic in the Christian blogosphere often confuse and discourage me. I look forward to reading Dr. Crabb’s new book.
Hi Sheila! Encouraged by your review and my previous encounters with Dr. Crabb’s books, I bought this book! I read a bit already and I’m getting excited…He asks great questions and I cannot wait to read the whole book. Matters of (biblical) femininity and masculinity, men and women, roles etc. have been on my heart for years and I’m reading everything I can get my hands on on the matter.
This might be a bit different, but how do you see Elisabeth Elliot’s view on marriage, men and women? I have not read all her books about the matter, but I really think she is a wise woman based on the books I have read. I would like to hear your opinion about her view of womanhood and femininity, roles in marriage etc.
Hi Henna, I don’t think I can really speak to that, because I haven’t read her books. I did read one when I was 16, but I don’t remember it well enough to say very much. Sorry about that!
You have missed out! 🙂 I recommend her books, she always seems to find the root of the issue and address it with the Word of God. I am looking forward to hearing what you think!
Fascinating post! I am not a Christian, but I read a bunch of Christian marriage/homemaking blogs because I find them really interesting. The way I usually see submission described (husband is the boss, always let him win, etc.) has always confused me. I always thought a couple would miss out on so many opportunities to grow together if that was their default whenever disagreements arose. I enjoyed reading your view on this. Thanks for sharing.
I love this post! I’ve been married to the love of my life for just over 16 months, it’s a second marriage for both of us. My husband wanted us to have a traditional marriage (ie. he be the provider and I stay home and care for our home). I agreed. But it was me who took the role of a submissive wife way to seriously. I deferred all decisions to him even though he was gone from our home for 6 days every week. Luckily, God showed my husband what was festering in my heart. My idea of submission were completely different from his! I truly believe, that we all have gifts that we bring to our marriages and we need to use those gifts to make our marriages all that God intended it to be. I understand now, that submission is helping Him be all that our Father intended him to be. It’s not about making decisions, it’s about working together, following the path that God has laid out for us.
In a word…True! And very reflective of my relationship with my husband. We’ve talked on several occasions about marriages where the two start off with “role rules” for there marriage. We think that type of thinking is insane and death to a loving, thriving, passionate marriage. We believe that you don’t try and fit into “roles” you are to be “you” and the beauty of your marriage will shine brightly as you become “one”.
I LOVE YOUR BLOG!!!!!
I know we don’t agree on this issue, Sheila, and that is fine with me. I was just wondering how you deal with these verses ~
I Peter 3:6 Even as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord.
Titus 2:3-5 Older women are to teach the young women to …be obedient to their husbands…
Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
The book goes into all those passages in great depth, Lori, looking at specifically what Sarah was obedient to Abraham for. It’s really a very interesting take, and it comes down to submitting your will to God’s, both for you and your husband.
I really hate labels, especially submissive. For some reason it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. However, I really like your definition, “I consider submission when I care about my husband’s needs first; when I think about what he may want or need, and I sacrifice something to meet that need.” My only problem with this definition is that you could easily substitute the word “submission” with the word “love”, and it would also be true. I feel that a husband should also feel the same way towards his wife. Perhaps I am just caught up in the semantics. Perhaps I am just fearful of the responsibilities that come along with the word. In truth, I want my wife to my equal. There are times when I defer to my wife because she is a subject matter expert on things, like child care and spirituality. I know there are times when she defers to me as well. I view our relationship as an equal partnership with each of us contributing our expertise in different areas. I think we compliment each other well. Is it just semantics?
I sometimes wonder that, too. The truth is that if we are both seeking after God’s heart, and we are both serving each other, the words really cease to matter. The rubber hits the road, of course, when the other spouse ISN’T doing this, and that’s where God asks us to keep doing the right thing anyway. But I think in a healthy relationship where both are seeking first and foremost after the kingdom of God, these issues often fade into the background.
I’m so glad you’ve written about this. I’m working my way through the Respect Dare because I need to work on respect and because I need to work on submitting to God. I was very concerned about whether I would run across an assumption that women are lesser than men. (So far, that hasn’t jumped out at me.) I have been frustrated by much of the process–largely because of what I’m learning about my own issues.
My husband wants a strong-willed woman who stands beside him, not behind him and certainly not under him. As I’m learning about submitting to God, he and are both discovering more about how our support for each other (not just for him) allows us each to feel more whole and to minister to each other, to our family, and to others..
Whatever do you mske of 1 Peter 3.6? And what do you make of Pauls order for wives to submit to their husbands as the church to Christ?
As I said, there are times when you have to let things go. But in general, the goal is oneness. God does not glory in having us disagree about something but letting our husband have his way. God glories when we work through things and submit to HIM first and foremost, so that we are both chasing after Him. God doesn’t love it when one of us–or both of us–is not hearing Him properly. He glories when we both hear Him. And if we were to work through our problems, and seek God first, that’s where we’d end up.
Or, to put it another way, this is what I just don’t understand: why is it that it seems more important to stress that a woman should obey a husband when she doesn’t agree than that the couple should both submit to God together and discern what His will is and become one? Certainly when we have to defer, we do. But that’s something to mourn, not something to celebrate. It means you haven’t agreed under God together, and that’s just really sad.
One question…why is it a bad thing to defer to one another? Isn’t it just another way of preferring one another and considering them more important than yourself? In a lot of situations, deferring even on big issues does actually bring oneness, provided that you have decided to defer without an attitude of resentment.
I don’t think deferring is a big deal if it’s inconsequential–like which restaurant to go to, etc. That’s just being courteous and nice. But if it’s something you feel strongly about, and you just give in because he’s the guy instead of trying to wrestle it through before God together, I don’t think that’s a victory.
I agree with these thoughts, Elizabeth. I think there’s a very big difference between “giving in” to someone because you don’t want to argue/challenge; and choosing to defer to a man you love and trust to make decisions in your best interest. Those two things are not equal, in my opinion.
Two sinful people are never going to agree about everything all the time – even if they are both actively seeking the Lord and His will for their lives.
Sheila,
Can you think of any ways to encourage that discussion without the husband just giving in? Sometimes I try to tell my husband, “I just want to talk this through”, but he ends up deferring to my opinion when all I wanted was a discussion so we COULD be on the same page. It makes me uncomfortable because I want to make the decision together and it feels like I’m being aggressive when he just gives in. Any suggestions?
Sheila,
I completely agree. My husband and I were just talking about this. The devil has been at work trying to confuse what God has already shown me. I was like…I know what God has shown me. But have I figured it all out?! Like am I letting my husband lead? What am I supposed to do if I don’t agree? I can’t just let him make the decision especially if I am feeling un easy about it. Girl, I was really getting ate up about it.
I decided to bring it up to my hubby again and what he told me is that the ‘obedient’ thing isn’t about letting him make those final decisions if I don’t agree or feel uneasy. But rather just be supportive of him in important decisions or in where God is leading him. If there are issues to discuss that we don’t agree on at first, We are going to pray about it and find a solution together. Now on spiritual matters he does what he needs to. I do not interfere. The same for me though. If we are being lead by the spirit we let God lead. We do not interfere. And of course if something urgent pops up. Like a natural disaster. (This was his example), then we need to listen to him on his decision on what we need to do to try and keep the family safe. (Which is agiven. I totally trust my husband in this way. But when it comes down to like household, financial, etc, basically anything else. We work through stuff together. And if one of us isn’t being fair to one or the other we bring it up. I am really glad my hubby and I talked through this. ❤️ and like you said earlier if both spouses are equally putting Christ first and working for the Kingdom of Christ then really those issues usually kind of disappear. Which is amazing. I love what God has been doing in my marriage. 🙂
Let’s not forget to look a couple of verses BEFORE the famous submission command. “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” It’s about mutual submission in order to bring Christ glory. Oneness is the goal. Love that. Totally with you, Sheila!
This is a misunderstanding of the text. Paul says “submit to one another” then he tells us HOW to submit to one another in the following verses: “Wives, submit to your own husbands… children obey your parents… slaves obey your masters…”. It wasn’t Paul’s intention to say that each person has to submit to every other person in the church. How would that even work? The church couldn’t function if the elders always submitted to the congregation instead of leading them, parents can’t raise their children properly by submitting to them instead of guiding them, slaves or employees certainly can’t expect their masters/employers to submit to them.
If you say that the command to submit applies to both the husband and the wife, you must also determine that it applies all the other relationships mentioned in the passage: children/parents and slaves/masters. Not only that, but you also have to apply it to Christ and the church. The wife is commanded to submit to her husband in the same way that the church submits to Christ. So according to your definition of “mutual submission” Christ is also supposed to submit to the church.
There was a time when God told Abraham to listen to Sarah, and there is a time where God said submit to one another.
There really are times, Mrs. P. when a husband cannot have the final say. Most people must use common sense and not be so rigid to follow the word “submit” to their detriment. I can give you real examples, when a husband must submit to his wife’s decision, or give in to her choices. You may feel better not using the word submit, but it has the same meaning. Read the examples below.
EX. 1.The wife is in labor, she is in lots of pain, and she wants pain relief, but the husband does not want her to get pain relief…..Husband should not try to block wife, who is the patient decide from getting pain relief. This is her decision. She could have asked to labor in private from husband. that too would be up to her.
EX.2. The wife is in the delivery room, laboring and exposed. The husband wants to let his mom and dad come into the room. The wife says no, I am the patient and I am naked and uncomfortable. The husband has to be mighty cruel to even ask that. Because she is naked and in pain, she does not want them in that space. This is her right, her choice. The husband must give in to the wife. Do you think God wants her to give in to her husbands request and demands at this time? See, sometimes, we have to use our common sense.
3. A slave is cleaning, and the cleaning supplies do not work and are too strong for the slave’ snose. She tells the master that he needs to get her something better because what he chose does not work and t is giving her a headache, the fumes are too strong. the master isf he is human will give in to the needs and the best interst of the slave. the slave is still cleaning like the master asked her to. Would a master be that cruel to ignore the slave and not give in? Should the slave keep cleaning all day when the dirt will not disappear and the floors and walls are still dirty? Should the slave keep inhaling the strong fumes and allow them to make her sick? Do you belive that God does not want the master to give in to his slave or have the slave be overcome with fumes, while the dirt stay on the walls and floors.
Our husbands are sinners just like us, in fact sometimes men (like our politicians an sports figures) can do some mighty stupid things. Sometimes, the woman makes sense in a decision and the husband is irrational.
Women were given a lot of common sense. We can still allow our husbands to be a loving servant leaders as God requires them to be. But a man cannot just steam roll his wife into doing everything his way. That is not how you love and honor your wife.
Very well said Jean! I often read comments on marriage blogs about issues that wives are told to just submit to their husbands about (birth control, size of family, homeschooling, etc) and I’m often shocked that the wives are told to just submit to their husbands’ desires in everything, when the wife may have extremely valid concerns.
Amen. Well said. May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you.
This was an amazing explanation and I will have to get that book.
I read another post of yours where you said submitting to your husband is submitting to God..or at least should be. If this post is the definition of submission, I can agree whole-heartedly.
Unfortunately I have had to set a boundary that moved my husband outside of our home. Our separation is in part because he can’t or won’t see submission on my part as anything other than “shut up and do what you’re told”. Since my knowledge of my Creator says I’m precious, in submission to Him I feel I must not submit to my husband.
This is so true! our definition of submission is so wrong. We need to work on understanding each other and deciding together and working together… even if the end result is not quite what either one of us expected at the beginning of the conversation… Thanks for sharing 🙂
Sheila, you keep explaining submission in such negative terms like “just give in because he’s the guy”, and you describe it as a failure to achieve oneness. Well of course it sounds bad if you put it that way! 😉 The way I see it, submission is a great way to achieve oneness. Instead of holding on to what I want or think is best, I decide to let go of that and choose to align myself with my husband. I’m not sitting in the corner pouting thinking “Fine, I’ll do what you want but I don’t have to like it.” No, instead I choose to embrace my husband’s decision and agree with it because God has appointed my husband as the head of our home and I trust that God knew what he was doing and is in control of what happens. That is true oneness. My husband and I always discuss things and he values my opinion and defers to me very often. But if we can’t agree, he has the responsibility to make the final decision. He is the one who has been given the responsibility of leading our family and he is the one who will give an account to God for how he handled that responsibility. He has to do what he thinks is right.
HI Mrs. P,
I guess I’ve just never been in a marriage where we can’t agree. We wrestle through things. I don’t really understand why couples don’t do this, and why this wouldn’t be the preferred goal. To try to agree under God, to try to be on the same page–that’s the example in Scripture of how you resolve conflict. It’s ascertaining what God’s will is together.
Sometimes people can’t do that, but to say that it is somehow a GOOD thing to come to a disagreement and then say “he gets to decide” seems odd. A “good” thing is when we each go before God and ask Him to show us the truth and a solution. If we aren’t in agreement (or even if you say you ARE in agreement simply because you do it his way) then you aren’t listening to God. And that, to me, is a problem. We can’t have our relationship with God THROUGH our spouses. We can only have it through Jesus. We only have one mediator, and that’s Jesus. I believe that too many women are trying to make their husbands their mediators with God, and I don’t think that’s healthy.
Or, to put it another way, so many people spend so much time talking about submission as if it is ONLY about deferring to him in decisions. But really, how many of these situations truly occur? Like I said, they’ve NEVER occurred in our marriage. So if this is the only acceptable definition of submission, I’ve never submitted.
What if, as Crabb says, submission is so much more? What if it’s our whole outlook towards our spouse, and trying to look out for their needs and wants and their best interests? That, to me, is a much healthier view of submission than a very narrow one that focuses on disagremeents–disagreements that Jesus even said we weren’t supposed to have.
Sheila, you know that I really respect you, and I don’t desire to be argumentative. My only question about this statement that you have made a few times now is this:
Shouldn’t husbands also look out for his wife’s needs and best interests, and sacrifice for her well being? So, then, is a husband also submitting to his wife by that definition?
That’s wonderful that you and your husband have never been in a situation where you couldn’t come to a compromise. But unfortunately that’s not the case for every marriage. You are right that spouses should discuss issues, go before the Lord, work through the issue and try to come to an agreement. No one is saying otherwise. But it seems like your advice always assumes that spouses will come to a perfect compromise and both will be happy and puppies and rainbows and unicorns. Even in a great marriage, that just doesn’t always happen. If that is the case, the husband has the responsibility to make the final decision. He is the one who has been tasked by God to lead the family. He is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church. He is the one who will give an account to God for how he led the family God entrusted to his care.
I’m not sure why you don’t see a wife obeying God’s command to submit as a “good thing”. Like I said before, you’re phrasing it in such a negative way as if every time a wife submits she must be really unhappy and the couple totally failed to achieve oneness. To me this is HOW a couple achieves oneness when they come to an impasse. Why does submission always have to be a negative thing? If God commands wives to do it, I don’t think we should look at it as a bad thing that we hope we never have to actually do.
Really working through an impasse takes work, but it’s worth it. Otherwise, someone is saying that they will go along with a decision, but also making it clear that they disagree. That’s not a unified stance.
A couple needs to let go of any power struggle. They need to focus on the decision itself, and know that the result will not affect their power or standing in the relationship.
When it’s not about power and control, spouses can be creative. They can truly consider the other person’s POV. It’s not just about reaching a halfway compromise. It’s about problem solving together, working to meet everyone’s needs and getting to the point that everyone is in agreement. At that point, it doesn’t matter if an idea was originally mine or my husband’s. It becomes OUR decision. We both support it and we’ll both defend it. If there are negative consequences, we’ll both accept it.
Here’s one example: it took us a long time to find our current home. Once we bought it, we did some extensive renovations. While the initial desire to move came from him, I was persuaded that this move was best for us. When we were in the middle of a big mess and the line of credit was almost maxed out, my husband had a moment of panic, and I was able to say, “it’s okay, we know that this was the best decision and it’s going to work out.” I wasn’t stepping back and saying “told ya so”. [The move ended up being a great decision, BTW]
I’ve never thought of my responsibility as the head of the household as a chance to push my choices over my wives, but that seems how it is often presented it seems when the topic comes up in these posts on the subject throughout the internet. All I know is a couple years ago, my wife decided she was going to become a submissive wife and our marriage went from the worst to the best. She went from miserable to extremely happy and joyful. I don’t think she feels oppressed in least, but freedom like she’s never felt before. I’m sure there are a few times she might not agree with the decisions I make, even though I seek her counsel (which often sways my decision), but in the end I do what I believe is right and she comes along with me. I understand praying together, talking things thru, but I think Sheila probably takes it a step or two further than what works for our marriage.
I kind of get what you are saying, or Crabb is saying. But I remain a bit confused on a few things I would consider essentials when it comes to submission passages of the scriptures.
The scriptures do say for the wife to submit to her husband “in everything.” It speaks of being subject and obeying.
The Bible does not say that a wife cannot speak her mind… and maybe even delay submission for more discussions, or even a chance to change her husband’s mind. Seeking Oneness as you put it.
But what do you say to the wife who married a husband who simply disagrees with her on important issues of where to live, or if she works or does not work, or how to raise the kids. Do you actually believe that the wife should continue to stand her ground until Oneness appears, even if that takes years or decades? Or does that Oneness scripturally demand that she submit her will?
I agree with much of what you write, but if by Oneness you are demanding Keith to submit to your will on important matters, is that truly Oneness? … or are you just feeling good about the relationship? Remember, most men, especially godly men, will love there wives to the point of giving in on even important issues in order to create the Oneness you seek. Ask Keith the question how many times in the past did he sacrifice an important issue that he felt strongly about to maintain unity with you, his loved spouse.
I lived with a godly unsubmissive wife for 20 years. I deferred to her regularly for the sake of Oneness and Unity in our marriage. But true intimacy never came. It was only after we began to truly wrestle with what the scriptures clearly teach on submission that she became submissive and the wife of my dreams,
I am not a very demanding person, and I enjoy serving and helping. But I am convinced in God’s Word that until a wife finds in her heart true submission and a willingness to defer to her husband’s leadership, even after some debate or disagreement, even when she knows he is wrong, the Spirit cannot do His mighty work in the marriage and the family.
I do not think we are so far off on our application of submission, but your seeming willingness to seek Oneness at the expense of the clear teaching of the scriptures can in some circumstances mislead those you are teaching. Do a post on what to do when Oneness and Unity is not achievable… or when a husband is not a believer, and describe what submission looks like if it is not giving in to his will.
Not all wives are married to Keith’s, or godly men, and in these circumstances submission to God demands submission to one’s husband… And no, not when he asks you to sin as the higher submission and obedience then clearly applies. I find it a ridiculous illustration when on uses clear sin in the submission discussion, but when it is clearly not sin, and Oneness appears unachievable no matter how long the discussions… now what? Do you then ignore the clear teaching of scripture or tell your readers it is God;s ideal for the wife to submit? Thanks for allowing my comments and questions.
So true Sheila. I am 50 years old and have been attending church services every week my entire life. I have been married for 29 years to a great christian man. I have always wondered why so many think that being a leader/head comes down to making final decisions. Leading has much more to do with taking initiative in living a christian life and being a Godly example to your family. Making sure your family is growing and learning God’s ways. Making sure everyone is up and ready in time for Sunday services. Making sure everyone has proper time to study and grow in God’s word. I recently picked up the Life Ready Woman book by Shaunti Feldhahn and love how she addresses making decisions. Page 61 “God wants the husband and wife, as equals, to always strive for unity, oneness, and agreement. This is not the same thing as “compromising to meet in the middle,” and it is not, “I’ll take your opinion under advisement and then make the decision, thank you very much.” Instead, it is a purposeful effort to walk in true oneness of mind, heart, and purpose, including a willingness to defer to one another (Eph. 5:21) And as the one given the ultimate leadership responsibility, it is, in the end, the husband’s job to create that environment.” Love the concept of a husband that uses his leadership responsibility to create an environment of oneness.
It almost seems like you have redefined submission to be “Christian love and seeking the best for your husband.” Love and submission are certainly intertwined, but clearly two separate issues.
I fear that if Peter and Paul had not been clear on God’s requirements for a wife to submit, that many Christian wives would have no compass at all when it comes to allowing their husband to lead. Thank God they were clear about who is to lead the family forward, even if some feel they must wrestle with what that means.
A wife cannot decide what love is or isn’t, or what Oneness is or isn’t as both of these are feelings based. She must decide instead what God demands of her and in following His ways she reaps God’s blessings for her and her family. And you are correct that being submissive is not being a wallflower.
I’m under three different MAJOR deadlines today, so my HUSBAND SUGGESTED (:) ) that I not participate much in the comments today, and I think he’s right.
So I’m just going to say this, and then I really need to go.
I do appreciate that we all want to encourage marriages.
But here is what I don’t get: throughout Scripture, people are encouraged to pray, seek God’s will, and agree. When we have differences of opinion, there are methods laid out to solve that. We’re encouraged to seek God first, and then agreement SHOULD follow. We should be of one mind. Jesus even prayed that.
If that is true in Christian relationships, should it not be all the more true in marriage, that which is supposed to be the closest relationship? Isn’t what God wants for us to come before Him, pray things through, wrestle things through, learn more uncomfortable things about ourselves and our pride, and truly come to agreement? An easy “let’s do it your way” doesn’t accomplish that.
OF COURSE if you can’t come to an agreement you defer to him; I’ve always said that, and I said it here, too. But that is the afterthought, not the main thing.
If what God wants is true oneness and truly seeking His will, then why would He create a theology of marriage which assumes, as its primary position, that people would NOT agree? Especially when everywhere else He instructed them to agree and to seek His will.
That’s why I think we’ve misunderstood submission. Some people have accused me of reinterpreting it, but we ALL are interpreting it, because the Greek simply means to “put yourself under”. When you consider his needs first; when you seek out for his best; when you try to understand him, and serve him, I believe you are doing that. And yes, when you can’t come to an agreement, you defer.
But I do not believe that the main purpose that God has for marriage is that the guy should make the decisions, and the woman should go along. That violates everything else that He ever said about relationships. The main purpose should be that we are seeking God TOGETHER.
That is my issue; it’s one of emphasis. I prefer to emphasize seeking God and seeking oneness, and, if you are at a genuine impasse, then yes, defer. But to assume that the impasse is the starting point is extremely odd to me.
And that really is all that I’m going to say, because I have way too much writing to do today!
I cannot agree with you more Shiela !
The true purpose of marriage is unity and Oneness as you point out clearly. The whole of Christian living is that of love and unity which flows from the Spirit of God. So submission is not the end all and be all of a Christian marriage, but it is a part of a godly marriage as it conforms to the will and order of God.
Our church elders do not run around demanding submission from their flock, but they also cannot lead if they do not believe that the members of the church are willing to submit to their wisdom and decision making. Elders must be listening to their sheep and watching over them with love, but they cannot tip toe into leadership, and must instead rely fully on the submission of those over whom God has placed them in leadership.
A husband wants and needs no more than this. To know that his wife respects and will follow his leadership. We can leave a church, but a godly wife is bound to her husband.
I can understand your desire to relegate submission as a tool to gaining a happy marriage and not the end all and be all of a marriage. There is always the danger of a husband exercising authority in a self seeking manner, or a wife deferring too easily as to be a wallflower, but if God clearly teachers that a wife is to “put herself under” her husband, then let us, who hold dearly God’s Word, and ways, not shy from teaching it clearly, even as we recognize that love must be at the heart of the marriage.
“Wives submit to your husbands, and husbands love your wife as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for it.” Both truths must stand on their own, even if one spouse does not do their part, so that God may be glorified in the life and marriage of the obedient believer.
I definitely agree that my wife is a huge helper. Her insight and advice is invaluable. I’ve taken some flak on my blog for saying she’s my most valuable asset, but I don’t understand the people who just want a subservient silent woman around without contributing where it’s most valuable, in brain power.
And I also have said, like you did, that submission to God is always first.
I’m not sure I agree that oneness can always be achieved in our current state. The best analogy I see is in a church board. We all sit down to discuss an issue. We have differing opinions on how to handle the situation. We discuss, we vote, whatever the majority votes on, we all agree to do and support, regardless of our prior feelings (unless of course one feels that the action is morally reprehensible, then you have the choice to leave the board). I don’t see this as a failure of oneness, we all have different passions and ideas. It isn’t a right or wrong, just a matter of opinion.
But, in a marriage, you cannot vote. You end up with a tie if you have differing opinions. I think that’s where the system I see God set up comes in, to be a tie-breaker, on those rare occasions.
My wife and I were talking about this after my reply, and we also thought that its hard to explain away all the marriages we’ve seen improve as soon as the husband takes on a leadership role and/or the wife takes a submissive role. Just our perspective though, maybe we gravitate to those couples who are like minded, or visa versa.
I do get what you’re saying, but here’s another area where I’m kind of at a loss to understand something. Why is leadership about making decisions? I never said that my husband doesn’t lead, and that I don’t submit. I do believe that I submit, and I do believe that my husband leads. It’s just that it’s not about decisions. Leadership is so much more than that. It’s about deciding that the family needs to pray more, or taking a look at some of the ways the family is operating and realizing that they’re not functioning well, and that we need to start doing things differently with our 13-year-old, or whatever. It’s taking the initiative to watch for the well-being of the family, and then do something when you notice that something is amiss.
Do you know what I mean? I totally believe that a man can lead and a wife can submit and the two can STILL make decisions together. That’s where I’m hung up. Whenever I say that my husband and I actually try to agree on things, I’m told that I don’t submit and he doesn’t lead. But that just doesn’t compute to me. Leadership is about responsibility and initiative. And Keith definitely does that. Decision-making seems like such a minor part of the whole thing, and yet that’s what we get hung up on. And when it comes to decisions, I really don’t understand why the goal should not be agreement, since everywhere else in Scripture that’s what we’re admonished to do.
I hope that makes sense. Gotta run and finish up something else!
Yep, that makes sense to me. In our case, disagreement doesn’t come up very often. We really don’t fight anymore. What happens more often is that my wife can’t decide on something, so asks me to decide for her. It as not that she’s not intelligent enough to, she just can’t make herself choose without second guessing. If I choose, she doesn’t second guess it. But yes, I involve her in all major decisions and a lot of minor ones, whether she’s involved in the situation or not, because I value her input, and yeah, we usually do agree. I appreciate that you responded, despite your lack of time.
I understand your point that a husband and wife should seek for unity and oneness, but can you please comment on Ephesians 5:23, 31-32, 1 Peter 3:1-7 and 1 Corinthians 11:3? My understanding is that a marriage reflects the relationship of Jesus (the bridegroom) and His church (the bride). I think that is the ultimate purpose of marriage: to draw attention to the relationship Jesus has with His church. Ephesians 5:23 and 1 Corinthians 11:3 clearly state that the husband is head of the wife, just as Jesus is head of the church.
Sheila, love this! I do think this is what we should be working toward in our marriages. Mutual submission to God’s leading. It sounds like you and your husband are very much in tune with each other on seeking God’s guidance in your decision making process. It is also evident that you have mutual respect and love toward one another.
Here are some random thoughts I had as I was reading your post and the comments.
The idea of hearing from God on an issue is foreign to many Christians. Many Christians stop at seeking Biblical wisdom at best in their decision making process. For this couple, they haven’t learned how to hear from God, so they are left with making decisions based on circumstances, feelings, and Biblical truths, but they don’t actually go to God and say “What do you want us to do?” Here is where many couples find themselves at an impasse, and the wife decides to defer to her husband out of submission. Or, the wife even suggesting to her husband that they both seek God for the answer is offensive to her husband who takes this as a criticism of his “spirituality” or takes it as her not wanting to let him lead. This wife does need to step back and let God work in her husband on hearing from Him, I believe. I guess this would be submitting to our husband’s lesser place of spiritual maturity in a way, and I do think God asks us as wives to do this at times. We can’t change them, so we have to figure out what submission looks like in their place in life right now. Sometimes it does mean deferring decisions to him.
Another thought is that I feel that many husbands shirk their leadership responsibilities by allowing their wives to make most of the decisions but call it “respecting her opinion” Some of these wives are happy to run the show, others are wishing their husbands would step up and make a decision for a change. In these marriages, God may need the wife to step back while He works on the husband in learning how to lead.
I really do think the model you are illustrating is ideal Sheila, but many couples aren’t there yet. Men have been raised in homes where healthy marriages were not modeled, and feel like failures as husbands and fathers in their own homes. A wife who has a husband who is controlling, not willing to lead, or not willing to submit to God, has no choice but to submit to her husbands decisions while praying for God to work in her husband’s heart. I really don’t see another way.
I agree with you that deferring to him when you can’t agree means that you didn’t succeed as a couple in unity, BUT, sometimes the best lessons can be learned this way. A man can really grow as a husband and a Christian if he is allowed to make a wrong decision and learn from it. God is bigger than any mistake we can make, and as wives, we need to be willing to let those mistakes happen and not fret because we aren’t united in all things. It’s a growing process that will last our whole married lives.
I would love to get a copy of this book and have my husband read it with me, so that we can discuss together how we can better be united in our marriage in all ways. I don’t think it works for just one part of the equation to understand these truths. We need to walk together through learning our roles as men and women.
Also – a /wife/ can really grow and learn from watching her husband make the correct decision over all her unreasonable objections 🙂 Let’s not forget that sometimes us wives need to back down because we’re just plain wrong. We’re on a woman’s blog, so it’s easy to assume that we’re mostly right. However, we aren’t always right and need to remember that sometimes our men are trying valiantly to lead us in peace and oneness while we’re hung up on sometime fairly inconsequential. It’s been known to happen before 😉
Most definitely. I was remiss to not speak of the other side of that coin. I can think of numerous examples from my own marriage where I was wrong and learned my lesson 🙂
Shelia,
Thanks for a marvelous site. Keep writing wonderful articles!!! You may not be aware how much you are helping other women. You answered some questions and clarified some things .
This site is a blessing to women and marriages!!
It is interesting to note that Larry Crabb speaks of growing up hearing 40 sermons on wives submitting to their husbands, but rarely, if ever hearing the husband’s need to love his wife as Christ loves the church. I grew up in the church and have just the opposite experience. Few pastors are truly willing to tackle the submission issue out of fear, and end to go where Crabb has gone… mutual submission. As pointed out by Mrs. P., the submission verses become unintelligible if one goes to mutual submission because then we would have to have parents submitting to children, masters to slaves and ultimately Christ submitting to believers. No, “to put under” is proscribed only to wives in the context of marriage, and for Crabb to go to mutual submission is a cop op for a a guy whose older works I really respect.
Crabb also speaks of going to his church with a woman pastor in the pulpit, and likes it. This means he has bought into the mindset that one can redact Pauline theology as cultural, and pock and choose what is not applicable to today’s church. Once you start down that road one becomes the judge and jury of what is truly God’s Word and what God inadvertently allowed in His Word to appear as clear commands, but not now intended for today. That is a slippery slope I have seen many go down, so watch for Crabb to get more and more on the “God’s love covers all” bandwagon.
I much prefer the solid ground of believing all of God’s Word, even the parts that I find hard to understand or apply, recognizing that His Word is the meat of my soul, and I am not wise enough, or permitted to pick and choose from His Word, or water any of it down to tickle the ears of those who want God to fit in their box. Crabb seems to be going flowery and mystic, which is too bad, because he has been one of my favorites for Christian psychology, and he was so Biblically solid for so long.
We must really think about what God tells us, all throughout the Bible. I sometimes think that some of us women do not read the Bible for ourselves, we just jump on the nearest man made doctrine group to get our spiritual guidance. And we accept other ideas from some of the other marriage sites ( not this one:) on the internet that condemn, scold, and blame wives, while making long lists that tell wives how to exalt and worship husbands. I think some of us are just blowing with the wind. Some of us seem to be so blind and so gullible.
Why do you think God would tell us, that we are to submit to one another? He knew how gullible you women would be when you read on anti women sites. He knew that women would be weak, desiring their husbands so desperately, so needy, and would buy any doctrine made by men. Why do you think God, actually told Abraham to listen to Sarah? Yes, Sarah, was a wise woman!!!!! He knew that modern men/husbands would not always be right, if seldom, and He knew that anti women doctrine would sway many of us. He knew that women would be just as smart as men, eventhough men’s egos won’t admit it. Our all wise and knowing God saw all of this. He saw everything we would do and think. He is not happy when you all spend all of your internet time, writing comments about how to worship, exalt, and boost a husband’s ego. There are better things that we can write about on the internet. He knew women/wives would have many more important things to do, such as breastfeeding the baby, talking to husband’s demanding mother on the phone, talking to the daughter about puberty, preparing a wonderful home for the family, cooking a meal, taking care of her female issues, etc.
He knew that the man would have to learn that he is not always on the top of the priority list, even though he is a servant leader. Maybe if we spend a little time talking to husbands about joining in with their wives and serving them and the children, then husband wouldn’t have time to lick on his wounds and his ego. It is true!!!
We must be in the last days, because God said that men would become lovers of self. (2 Tmothy 3:2) and guess what? And we see this on the internet right now!! Many of you exalters are enabling these men and they are indeed loving themselves. We are creating monsters when we exalt and worship husbands. We are making life so difficult, often intolerable, for young and gullible females who watch us more experienced women as accept these doctrines, as we bow down like animals. I just wish that more women would wake up and realize what is gong on.
Do you all really believe that a wife has any extra time on her hands to do all of her wifely duties, then exalt her husband, everyday, all day and all night? When does she have time to take care of herself? What about her needs? Who will care for her? You all told her to keep looking good for her husband, remember? When can she do that? When does she have time to think and to hear her own thoughts?? The husband doesn’t meet her needs. I am confused as to why you people spend so much time giving directions on how to lift up a husband, but don’t tell how to lift up a wife. Please someone help me to understand what is going on?? In the meantime, Satan’s army is growing.
Do you think it’s wrong for husbands to lift up or serve their wives? Do you think it’s wrong for a husband to set aside time for his wife, even though he’s busy with responsibilities or would rather focus on his own needs?
I love receiving this kind of attention from my husband. So why shouldn’t I strive to offer the same kind of treatment to him? If we’re addressing women here, we’re not going to accomplish very much by talking about how the men should behave (even though most guys could use more than a few tips!). It’s a well-known fact that you can’t force change on another person; you can only choose your own behavior.
My husband has faults and yours probably does too, but we aren’t going to turn our husbands into loving, unselfish partners by putting them down and stomping on them. I have lots of faults, but my husband is remarkably patient with me… MUCH more patient than I have been with him, in fact, and I don’t think it would make me a better person if he were to start raging against my shortcomings (maybe a bit discouraging?) instead of focusing on being the best person and husband in Christ that HE can be and seeking any possible ways to support me and encourage my growth. So why is it wicked to expect wives to do the same for their husbands?
How can it build healthy marriages to encourage wives to dwell lingeringly on their husband’s faults or to resent any sacrifices we may have made in order to show them love? You said, “we bow down like animals”??? Didn’t Jesus bow down under the weight of the cross for us? THERE IS NOTHING DEGRADING ABOUT SERVING ONE ANOTHER IN LOVE, even if it does cost something now and then. Jesus served us. I deeply appreciate the ways in which my husband serves me. Should I then be above service?
This post has been swirling in my head all weekend. I’d like to share a recent situation from my own marriage where I didn’t “submit” in the way that many would define submission, but I feel that I acted respectfully toward my husband. He came home a while back and told me of a possible situation and that he had (loosely) committed us to play a big part in it. I was livid…. I felt that he had no right to commit to such a thing without consulting me, but I held my tongue and heard him out as to not be disrespectful to him. As I went about the day, I compiled my mental list of reasons why I could not agree to commit to this,knowing full well that this was my flesh speaking and that I needed to be willing to hear from God on it. Later in the day, I calmly said to my husband, “You know, I really appreciate your servant’s heart and willingness to give to this situation. I’d like to ask though that if it were to come about, that we both be willing to go through the process of prayer individually to get confirmation from God as to whether or not He is calling us to do this.” My wonderful husband replied, “Yes. You’re absolutely right. And, I was wrong to make such a commitment without first talking to you.”
Some would say that I should have agreed right off and left the situation in God’s hands. But that was not where my heart was and I needed to be honest with him that I was not ready to make such a commitment, but that I was willing to surrender it to God. Obviously, my husband could have retorted with “No, I call the shots here and this is what is going to happen.” And I guess I would have had no choice but to surrender my option of disagreement. But that’s not how my husband operates and for that I am grateful.
… and conversely, I could have reacted immediately with “what on earth were you thinklng?!? How dare you make that commitment without discussing it with me!” But that would have put him on the defensive and caused him to dig his heels in and make demands in the name of “leadership” That certainly isn’t what God desires in our homes now is it? I was so thankful that God kept me calm and allowed me to process silently and come to him later with a calm, loving, affirming response. That to me is mutual love and submission.
And, the situation never came to fruition, so that would have been a big ugly fight for no reason at all 🙂 Or, if I had simply “submitted” it would have caused me inner turmoil and grief feeling that I had no voice… all for nothing as well.
Please help me with my confusion. What would have happened if you the wife had committed you all to something without asking husband’s opinion first?
You know, I think he would have handled it much in the same way. He would have given it some time and then gently confronted me with his input. Or, if he were in a less than stellar mood, he might have acted annoyed that I acted so presumptuously… but either way, in the end we would have worked it through civily and respectfully. (95% of the time)
But I should also clarify that I left out the fact that when he first shared with me, he did begin the conversation with “I guess I should have checked with you first, but I offered for us to………” So I apologize for not representing the conversation 100% accurately.
What I was trying to convey, was that there is a way to act humbly, gently, and respectfully even without defaulting to “You’re the boss, if you say so then that’s that.”
I enjoyed this post a lot. Something I think people often fail to see is that husbands are told to love their wives and Christ-like love is a form of submission and deference. Both husbands and wives should submit to each other, both wives and husbands should lead each other (and their family) towards Christ. Hierarchy is a result of the curse and Jesus came to reverse the curse. We are kingdom people and we should strive to bring the beauty of kingdom life in all it’s freedom and equality here on earth through the power of the Gospel.
Jew or Greek, bond or free, male or female we are all one in Christ and joint heirs with the Son. If we would stop trying to dominate one another and just work together in marriage and in Church, using whatever gifts are bestowed on us, I think we would be a lot more effective for the Gospel.
Thank you, Ashley. I think it’s like “living by the Spirit”–we’re uncomfortable with it because we’d rather have rules. But the Spirit blows where He wills, and living by the Spirit is messy and risky and different. And we’re called to that.
What about when God asks you to submit??
We were facing a huge financial issue. In my opinion my husband was making decisions that were un-Biblical. My hubby, however, was convinced that he was walking the Biblical and ethical path. So, I went over his head. I prayed and prayed CONFIDENT that Got was going to see things my way and put a stop to this.
A year later, I got REALLY MAD at God. I said “God, I have done everything right. I have prayed and trusted and you have done NOTHING! We are not only still on this horrible path, but going deeper and deeper! So here is what I am going to do God (I was telling the God of the universe how it was gonna be – *sigh* when will I learn?). I cannot stay in this turmoil ANYMORE!! So, I am going to let go. You say in your word (practically spitting it out now) that wives are to submit to their husbands. OK FINE!! I am going to let go of the stress, and worry. I am going to watch my husband take us on this destructive path and I will trust you to figure out some way to make this better. He knows how I feel, so I will not say another word about it. I have no idea how this is going to work, but so be it. I QUIT!! Talking has done nothing and he is making decisions without me. You are going to have to make this better.”
And then God responded. He flooded me with the most encompassing, incredible peace I have ever felt. Mind you I am really angry! I did not know anger and peace could both be present. They didn’t battle for long (anger and peace). I crumpled up in a ball and just started bawling. I cried and cried until I was spent. God did not speak to me audibly, but I KNEW that with that peace He was saying “That is EXACTLY what I want you to do. Let go and trust me and trust your husband.”
We have paid dearly for his financial decisions. But God held our marriage together and today we are better than we have ever been emotionally, spiritually, and soon financially. We are coming out the other side of the financial fiasco and will soon be back on our feet after 10 years and the sale of our home. We are forced to move to another community where homes are much cheaper (1/4 the price) so that our equity will pay off both mortgages. We could not qualify to buy/rent in our area. But, we will not have a mortgage!
*Sigh* – I understand what you are saying Sheila…I do! But in sometimes submission is necessary EVEN IF YOUR HUSBAND IS WRONG!
The only answer is to FULLY trust God and listen to what He is telling you.
Hi Sandy,
Thanks for sharing your story! And as I said in the post, I do think that sometimes, when you just can’t agree, you do have to let it go and leave it with God (I left a link in there to another article that said that). And I also do believe that God could call you to that.
But I still think that this is something to mourn. The better way would be to come to an agreement that is in line with what God has for you. In your case you couldn’t do that, and you let it go, and now you are able to rebuild, and that’s great. But the best would be if you could both be in agreement in what God has lined up for you. I know that isn’t always possible, but I think in many cases it is when we learn how to work through conflict.
Again, I’m not saying that you could have gotten there without letting it go; it could be that God needed to teach your husband something through this, and that’s really fine. I’m just saying that that the ideal would be that you would both agree under God, not that you would have to err and then learn something. And yet sometimes, with the way that submission is talked about, it sounds as if the “err and learning something” is treated as if it’s better than coming to an agreement under God. That’s what I don’t understand.
Yes, sometimes we have to let it go–but like I said, this isn’t the ideal. God still works tons of times through circumstances that aren’t ideal (as He did in yours), but the ideal, I think, is to walk in the Spirit and find oneness in Him.
Hi Sheila,
I’m Reginah from Nairobi, Kenya. I’m 23 yrs old, not yet married. Your article has definitely encouraged me. I’ve been terrified about marriage for the longest time, reason being because of the whole submission thing..I’ve grown up seeing my father abuse my mother physically emotionally mentally and i made up my mind from an early age I’ll never be in submission to any man. i read articles and listen to people’s conversations and all i hear is marriage=full submission from the woman..if the woman doesn’t submit she’s stubborn..a woman is supposed to obey the man with no questions asked…the more i hear these ridiculous nonsense the more i shut off completely, almost bordering to hate all men. But God is faithful, He send me a wonderful man that listens, encourages and supports me all the way. He always wants to hear about my opinions, my thoughts, my suggestions in everything that we do and that has helped me believe that not all men are the same. I must admit that its not always easy coz i still live with my father and he hasn’t change so removing that mentality of never submitting is still hard for me, but reading articles like this is a ray of sunshine in the midst of the grey storms lingering in my dark thoughts about submission. I told my man that I’ll have to go counseling before we got married, if it is the Lord’s will, so that I don’t bring my past hurts and baggage into our relationship. I don’t want to compare him to my father coz he is the exact opposite of him; kind, gentle,understanding and all other good virtues that i could write 2 or more pages down and I’ll still not finish, chuckle! I’ll definitely search for this book and get a better understanding about submission so that I may fulfill God’s calling to His good and perfect will for me and in marriage. Thanks so much Sheila, you are truly a blessing and may God continue in you His good work and keep on encouraging the youth like us. We are a broken generation of youth i can tell ya, so many of my age group have grown up like me, even in worse situations and many of them have said they’ll rather be single forever than get married coz of the things they saw while growing up. Continue to inspire us coz you have personally inspired me. I introduced this page to my man and we often read it together and discuss about the topics and we are entirely grateful.
Thank you and God bless you.
Sheila, I definitely agree that the healthiest marriages evince a oneness in purpose with the knowledge and talents of both spouses being utilized. That’s a beautiful goal.
But (not to be too personal, but you did mention it in a comment) if it’s true that you’ve never come to a point in your own marriage where you and your husband were unable to come to a mutual agreement, then you are an unbelievably blessed woman! Some of us have husbands who won’t listen (that’s not me, but I hear it happens) or who seem to listen but then disregard the whole conversation later, making independent decisions with which the wife violently disagrees. Or — rare though it may be 🙂 — a wife could be utterly in the wrong and unable to see it, and her husband might feel as though he MUST make a decision against her wishes in order to protect his family or even to obey God.
I know you’re better qualified to give advice than I am! However, I do wish you’d been a little more balanced in this article by offering more of a nod to women in situations where a compromise just CAN’T be worked out, whoever is “right” or “wrong.”
Do you not see ANY biblical support for the husband’s serving as a leader in the home or the wife’s submitting to his decisions? I think it’s significant that the Bible commands “subjection” for wives whose husbands are NOT Christians. (I Peter 3:1) To me this says that even if the unsaved husband is inconsiderately ignoring his wife’s opinions, she’ll be a better example of Christ if she submits to his decisions than if she holds out for her own ideas. (Please… take this in a balanced way. I’m not talking about a wife’s never speaking up or feeling forced to endure abuse or something ridiculous like that.)
I genuinely appreciate your pointing us toward the ultimate goal of true, mutual submission in love in our marriages. But… what about the “in the meantime” scenarios, when an agreement can’t or hasn’t yet been reached? What does the Bible say?
I’m sorry; it’s me again, and I’m not trying to rock the boat. I feel honestly confused about what you are saying.
I do believe a Christian husband should have respect for his wife’s personhood and should feel a responsibility to make decisions together with her. After all, he’s missing out on God’s whole POINT for marriage if he doesn’t, because if he’s not truly partnering with his wife, he’s not receiving the advantage of what she could bring into the marriage. He’s not allowing her to fully function as the helper that she should be to him. Etc.
But to get down to brass tacks, if a husband tells his wife to do something, doesn’t the Bible require her to do it? In other words, to obey? (Eph 5:22-24) I’m not talking about a demand that’s obviously sinful or some other extraordinary situation. And I’m definitely NOT saying that a wife has to keep her mouth shut and never question a word he says (though of course speaking with great love and respect is appropriate in any situation, and obviously a lot could be said specifically about better and worse ways to broach topics with your husband). But is it ever acceptable for a wife to simply refuse to do what her husband asks her to do (once again, as long as it’s not sinful or demented, LOL)?
I know I’ve “submitted” in the wrong way in my marriage. For example, my husband walked into the house and requested me to do some small thing that seemed unreasonably inconvenient at the moment. I started to “submit” with a very resentful attitude. (Yes, I see my sin! That wasn’t true submission at all!) Hubby picked up on my feelings (which wasn’t hard) and said something like, “Hey, wait a minute! You could’ve just told me you didn’t want to do it! This is a MARRIAGE, not a master/slave relationship!”
So I know I’ve been guilty of “submitting” in a way that wasn’t true submission at all. In such situations, I should be either making the sacrifice joyfully, out of love, or I should be treating my husband with respect by SPEAKING UP like an adult instead of sulking like a child.
But ultimately, a HUSBAND certainly isn’t commanded to do everything his wife says whether he likes it or not, right? He can even love his wife as Christ loves the church (and sacrifice greatly for her) without obeying her every demand, if he has sufficient reason to refuse. But isn’t the situation different for the wife? When the chips are all down, doesn’t a Christian wife have to obey even if she disagrees or prefers not to do it?
Sorry for writing such long comments and asking for replies. I know you might not be able to answer, but I was hoping for some clarification.
Sheila, I agree on much that you’ve said about couples working through differences etc. However, your arbitrary redefinition of the word submit is disturbing. Strongs and Thayer both include the words ‘obey’ and ‘subjection’ in their definitions. If we go by your definition we would have to conclude that Christ submits to the church! Please don’t handle the word of God deceitfully.
Okay–but your definition doesn’t work with “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ”, which is directed at ALL believers. If submission just means “obey,” then all believers must obey all believers. Which makes no sense whatsoever.
Don’t be so quick to look for arbitrary “definitions” of a word in such a limited scope as one verse. A word must mean the same thing throughout scripture–it can’t suddenly change meaning whenever convenient.