Every weekend I like to post a question someone sends in and let you readers have a go at it. This week’s question comes from a reader, who is concerned about how to kindly handle an immodest dresser:
There’s a woman in our Sunday School class who is a really sweet gal, but I don’t know if she understands how she comes across to others. She really dresses quite immodestly, and now that spring is here the skirts are getting much shorter and the blouses much more plunging.
My husband has commented on it, and I’m not worried that he’s lusting or anything. But what is our role here? Do we say something to her? Or do we just let it go? It’s hard sitting in church knowing that this is what everybody else is thinking. She’s also a middle school teacher and she dresses even more revealing at school in front of 12 and 13-year-old boys. Any thoughts?
What do you think? How should this be handled?
Sheila Wray Gregoire has been married for 29 years and happily married for 24! She loves traveling around North America with her hubby in their RV, giving her signature "Girl Talk" about sex and marriage. And she's written 7 books. About sex and marriage. See a theme here? Plus she knits. Even in line at the grocery store.
If you have any sort of relationship at all, I’d say approach her about it.
But then again, that sort of thing upsets me. I would not like someone who dressed like that around my husband or hypothetical boys! It would make me very uncomfortable. So, if you are in the position to, talk to her.
And if you’re not in a position to speak to her about it, then find someone who is or ask the pastor to do so.
It could be awkward for a male pastor to approach a woman about the fact that she’s dressing immodestly. A fellow female teacher or the pastor’s wife might be a better option.
That doesn’t necessarily mean that the original poster shouldn’t talk to the pastor about it. He would probably know who an appropriate person would be to do the actual approaching.
Oh, I encounter this often! We go to a very seeker-friendly church, and there are lots of pre- and baby-believers there. I try to remember that I can’t expect unbelievers to act like believers. And also that a too-revealing outfit is often the front for an person who already feels “I’m not enough” and/or “I’m not loved.”
If you know for certain the immodest dresser is trying to be a Jesus follower… Look for someone who already has a good relationship with her, who would also be sympathetic to the modesty issue. (And yes, a woman is best.) Convey your message without anger or put-downs. Leave it in their (and God’s) hands.
(Bear in mind )
This happens more than you know especially at church. It’s all about building a relationship with the person. No relationship? Then pray. Not gossip, but pray.
Once I saw a godly man take off his suit jacket and place it around the shoulders of a woman. He did not say one word. She got the message and never dressed that way again. Now she helps at her church teaching girls to be mindful what they wear and she tells her story. Powerful.
That is a very classy response 😀
Someone needs to!
If you don’t feel it’s your place to, perhaps talk to the pastor or the pastor’s wife about one of them approaching her about it.
That’s a good idea…the pastor’s wife. That would hold more weight, too.
I always feel bad that the Pastor’s wife has to be stuck with the jobs like that. Perhaps the women’s ministry pastor, or the youth pastor…whichever woman in leadership/ministry that can speak on behalf of the church body would hold weight.
Agreed! As a minister’s daughter, I watched my mother suffer for years and years because it was always “her job” to keep the women of the church in-line. And when she didn’t do a good enough job, was criticized (always by the people of the church.. NEVER my father). A minister’s family is put through A LOT.. let’s not pile on more!
I understand that some pastor’s wives could feel the pressure. I just raised it because in all the churches I’ve attended, the pastor and his wife have always been pretty much hired as a “package” with the wife always being in ministry in some form whether as a youth group leader or women’s ministry coordinator or worship ministry coordinator. Basically in all the churches I’ve attended, the pastor’s wife would be the exact person to turn to – there has also always been more than one pastor so there would always be one more appropriate to talk to.
This woman likes to get attention from men and will get in hot water w/her students as well. Please befriend her and eventually bring this distraction to her attention even thou she might hate you for it later
I feel very passionately about this issue! You want people to dress appropriately, especially at church. I know a woman who was confronted on it, but she doesn’t think she is dressing inappropriately and it hasn’t changed (except now her feelings are hurt). She is a sweet, Godly woman. You are going to run into women who are either “clueless” about it or do it intentionally (because of their own issues), so ultimately it’s up to your spouse to protect himself. Immodesty and temptations are all around us. You might wish there was at least someplace that was safe, but I think that’s wishful thinking. The only person you can control is you — how you dress, what you look at. Modesty is a personal issue and it comes from a heart that desires to live that way. If you do confront someone, it should be done in love and to offer knowledge (does she even know that people can see her cleavage or whatever the issue is?).
Light in the Darkness
http://lightmeetsdarkness.blogspot.com
amen! spot on
Yes this!
I agree. Also, if her employer feels she is dressing inappropriately, they would be adressing the issue there.
What a thoughtful, charitable, and spot on reply. Thanks.
My pastor’s wife dressed very inappropriately! I finally wrote her a long letter about it and she told me she couldn’t help it if men had a problem with lust. She said it was their problem not hers. Even the elders eventually approached her but nothing worked. We FINALLY left that church but it was a very difficult situation to say the least. Her husband, our pastor, saw nothing wrong with it…
Well she’s partly right — the men around her who choose to think that way are making that choice, and she could be dressed perfectly “modestly” and have men still think that way. We as women do not have control over that and frankly I am sick of being blamed for men’s thoughts – they do have a responsibility as well! That being said she should have had a teachable spirit as well, I would hope if someone said that to me I would pray and consider it at least. Yes we are called to live holy lives but I may feel bare shoulders are ok and you don’t, that doesn’t make me headed for hell, a callous unfeeling wench or a temptress. We also make an effort to teach our boys what modesty is and what to look for as well as our girls.
AMEN!
Of course men are responsible for their thoughts, but it’s a fact that men are wired to be aroused visually. Women may have differing opinions of what is modest, but lot’s of leg and cleavage will ALWAYS impact the men in the room. Hopefully they will choose to bounce their eyes and focus on something else, but they have been put in a position where they have to either purposefully ignore what’s in front of them, or risk committing the sin of lust. Doesn’t the responsibility for putting them in that situation rest solely on the woman showing all the cleavage/leg? And doesn’t it seem at least a smidge unkind and maybe even unChristian to do that to them?
I would agree totally. Try having a husband who has suffered with this for years. Read Every man’s battle. It is a real eye opener. It would probably surprise us if we knew how many men are suffering. We are our brother’s keepers. They might choose to look, but we choose what we wear and if it is immodest then we are responsible in part for their sin. It is sin to dress immodestly.
I think that anyone in the church, including yourself can approach this woman. She is not abiding by God’s law. Biblically (1 Timothy 2:9) women are asked to adorn themselves with spiritual things and not physical ones. Honestly, all of God’s people are called to do that. We are also asked to treat our body’s as temples (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) which means that they aren’t for our pleasure they are for God’s and God would ask her to reserve showing body parts to anyone but him and her husband. As a disciple of Christ if you see something in someone’s life that is not biblically pleasing to God or an outright sin you are called to speak to her about it in love (See Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 1). For me, I would need to pray and get my heart right about whether I am worried more about her relationship with God or more worried about how she is affecting my husband. Our love for God should always be the motive to help someone that appears to not be following His teachings. You also, could go more broadly in your approach, we have a yearly modesty class for our entire female fellowship that is during a women’s midweek study and prior to that, the pastor and the male church leaders give the men in the church questionaires about what makes them struggle (anonymously) so that we can help our brothers not to struggle. We speak not only about immodest dress but immodest thoughts as well. I find it encouraging and hopefully she would too. I will be praying for the situation and that God reveals to her that she is beautiful in his eyes without needing to dress immodestly.
You can’t really tell someone how to dress. What you may find immodest, others may be fine with. It’s very subjective. While I argee that in church, women and men should dress nice and be covered, by saying something to this woman, you risk driving her away from the church. Maybe you could speeak privately to a church leader, to gain their thoughts. The fact that she teaches middle school, is not your problem, unless you have kids in her class. We live in a world filled with different people, who dress in all different fashions. We can’t go around telling others how to dress. We must adjust.
By her dressing that way, she risks driving a lot of people away from the church. And it is everyone’s problem when children are being corrupted.
Yes but the point is walking up to someone and just saying you are dressing immodestly will most likely only make the problem worse! Modesty is a cultural thing as well and she may feel that as long as she’s not showing any real boob, etc that’s she’s fine… some people consider bare shoulders immodest others do not , skirt length is objective as well – some consider less than knee length immodest while others say mid thigh is fine (especially if you have shorts/bloomers on underneath)…
The school thing is tricky – unless you have children in her class I wouldn’t go there, just address the relationship you do have with her, pray and allow the Lord to lead otherwise.
I agree with Holly. There is clearly immodest dress and clearly modest dress. In between is a huge gray area that is basically nothing more than one’s personal opinion and preference. To be perfectly honest, I have seen women complain that another woman was immodest when in reality she was very attractive and let her light shine, so to speak. In that case I felt the accusations of immodesty were rooted in their jealousy over her attractiveness, not any lack of modesty on her part.
In a church setting I think the pastor should decide if someone has stepped beyond what’s right and should determine how it is handled and by whom. In the school setting the administrator should take this role.
The question Sheila posted said, “My husband has commented on it, and I’m not worried that he’s lusting or anything.” Which leads me to believe that the woman asking the question is not jealous, just concerned. Unfortunately, I wouldn’t be jealous but I would feel bad about myself even though I know I have no reason to feel that way. It’s just a struggle of mine. It’s that reason that I try to dress modestly – because I don’t want to make another woman feel bad about herself. Well, that in addition to not wanting to be lusted after, especially not by married men. I’ve had my share of being lusted after, and when I was younger I enjoyed it for a certain period of time, but eventually it got to the point where I realized it was dehumanizing and objectifying, and it started to make me feel really bad.
I can understand how people have different standards of what’s acceptable and what’s not, but it’s a matter of being classy, really. Something that is super short, super low, or shows midriff is trashy. That’s not coming from a Christian perspective – I have seen that on the secular tv show “What Not To Wear” over and over again. The first episode I saw they said, “Your stomach should never show unless you’re at the beach.” They have also said if you show leg then you can’t wear something low cut, and if you wear something a bit low cut you can’t show as much leg, because if you do low cut and short at the same time then it’s trashy. And on other episodes they say that a general rule is to have skirts at least knee-length or a LITTLE above the knee, and that shorts don’t need to show your actual rear end. Again, a secular show about how to dress classy rather than trashy.. And for someone over 20, it’s a matter of dressing appropriately for one’s age.
I agree that it’s also a matter of class, and I dress quite conservatively. But — that’s my taste and my preference and women can dress less modestly than I do and still be modest, professional and classy. Frankly, some people’s ideas of modesty are excessive and unreasonable. It’s fine for them but they have no right to impose this on others. If they don’t like what someone else is wearing or are tempted by it, they need to mind their eyes and look away. If they lack the self control to do so, that is their issue to work on. If another woman’s beauty makes them feel inferior (and let’s face it, we all experience this), they need to own their feelings and their response to this woman and deal with it.
If someone really thinks a woman has gone too far and is clearly displaying too much skin and being overtly sexual, they need to go to the pastor and express their concern and let him deal with it. If the woman is a teacher, they should do the same with the school administrator. I agree with the posters above that talking among themselves (“did you SEE what she’s wearing?!) is nothing more than gossip disguised as Christian sensibility.
Trust me I agree on the class thing as well but from the initial question it’s hard to tell if that’s the case or if this is just one person being uncomfortable with the way another dresses. Believe me attending military balls frequently I’ve seen several on either end! LOL ..and love What not to Wear btw
I agree. It’s never been our place to fix other’s problems, only to love and support. The issue of modesty should be carefully taught by the church, over the pulpit in individual classes etc and then people should be free to live it or not. As a wise man once said, “Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves.”
Until 2 years ago, this could have been me. I was married and teaching high school, and seemed to have it all together. I dressed immodestly because, honestly, I loved the attention. All attention. From any male. (I am not saying that all women who dress immodestly love the attention, but there is probably a pretty good chance they are aware of the effect they have and enjoy it to some degree, or else they would feel the need to cover up.) I had a problem with needing men’s approval. I flat out wanted men to lust after me. I was having trouble in my marriage, wasn’t getting the attention I thought I needed from my husband, and was seeking it wherever I could. I sought my affirmation in the attention from man, and not from being a daughter of the King. After several years struggling in my marriage, it was revealed that there were affairs on both sides of the relationship, physical and emotional. Through all of that struggle, the scales fell off my eyes and I saw what dressing immodestly does to both the women who are seeking the attention, and the men, who may not be actively looking, but may be drawn in anyway. If not for the intervention of God, and the Holy Spirit coming upon me, I would’ve continued to dress like that forever. Looking back now, I am disgusted with myself. I know now that I cannot keep every man from lusting, but I can certainly do my part to make it less of a temptation. God has redeemed my marriage, and I carefully consider everything I put on now. Having gone through an affair, I would never want to tempt another woman’s husband. EVER.
All this being said, I can tell you that before, if anyone had approached me about my dress I would have been very offended and probably become very defensive. So if you approach this woman, be warned that she may very well enjoy the attention-and it may give her a heightened satisfaction to know that she is getting her desired result. I would suggest a ton of prayer before you approach, asking the Holy Spirit to come upon her and make her aware of the way she is presenting herself. Pray that she can find her worth in God and not in the effect she can have on man.
Again, this may not be her situation, but I can speak from my experience, and know what I would’ve done. Just approach her in love. Maybe get a group of women together to do a church shopping trip. Sometimes going shopping with people can open up lines of communication as to why they dress the way they do. (And, shopping is just a fun excuse to get out with the girls!)
Hope this helps. I will be praying for this woman, that she might just come to understand how beautiful she is to her Lord, without revealing it all to man.
Thank you SO MUCH for sharing this! It is so nice to hear from someone who was there and has been changed by God!
I agree with several previous responses that, unless you have a relationship with this woman, it would not be a good idea to say anything to her about how she is dressed. I found the book “For Women Only” by Shaunti Feldhahn to be eye-opening in terms of the effect that immodestly dressed women has on men.
Ugh…I just re-read my previous comment and am now embarrassed at my assault on grammar :-/
I would find a way to have a lesson, either at a ladies night, or an all women Sunday School class about dressing modestly. Rather than focusing on needing to cover up so men dont have lustful thoughts, instead Focus on dressing modestly as way to show our respect for the temples God has given us. And that when we are covered we are respecting God. This is a message that is good for all women to be reminded of. Good luck!
thumbs up! 🙂
Is the woman married? Could your husband approach her husband? Of course, that could backfire also, as he may enjoy flaunting his wife like a trophy, but he may not be thinking through other men’s responses.
Assuming she’s not married, or that wouldn’t work… yes, you should speak with her. And as the other commentors have noted, she’s likely to get offended, but honestly, that’s not the issue. Of course, rash words aren’t going to be helpful either…
Absolutely pray, pray, pray first! Ask God to help you speak truth in love, and to soften her heart to receive it. When I have to go into a tense situation like that I often write out what I want to say – keeps me on track, and they can keep it to review later.
Speaking with her privately, and one-on-one would be good, so she doesn’t feel ganged-up-on or publicly shamed, but if you’re like me, you might want someone else along. When I ran across this issue a few years ago I figured that I – fashion-challenged, to say the least – wouldn’t have much of a platform with the woman. I rarely wear make-up or style my hair beyond a braid 😀 So I enlisted another friend in the church – a beautiful, stylish, and modest woman. I wanted the other woman to know that she can still look beautiful – that being modest didn’t mean looking like ME.
Make sense?
I guess what I was doing was trying to avoid giving her an unnecessary reason to reject wise counsel.
Be courageous,
Julie
PS… or you could do what one pastor reportedly did. He kept turning the air conditioning up until people were covered appropriately ;D
Tee hee!!
I feel for you sister! My husband is a pastor and I lead worship at our church and we have come across situations similar to this one a few times. I know, even as a woman, it can be very distracting. I do have some advise for you.
One BIG thing you can do is go before God and ask Him to take care of it. Tell Him your concern and thank Him in advance for handling the situation. Ask in faith, waiting expectantly for Him to take care of it. Find a Bible verse that applies and put that in your prayer as well. There is power in God’s word.
Another thing that we do is turn up the air conditioning. 😉 To the point that most women end up wearing a sweater with their summer shirts. The men are happy because they aren’t hot and the women are happy because most everyone has to cover up!! It’s not freezing cold but it is on the cool side. This has actually worked on more than one occasion. So has prayer.
One particular time we turned up the air and I prayed asking God to handle it. If you think you have a distracting view at eye level, put yourself in your pastors/praise team’s view. Trust me. They see way more if they are elevated on a platform. That is NOT something that any pastor should be looking out and seeing. Anyway, God handled the situation, I thanked Him and we moved on. Praise the Lord!
Blessings to you. Ask and you shall receive.
Janet
I’m generally a pretty blunt person. Which is not usually the best way to handle many situations. Most people claim to appreciate blunt honesty, but I’ve found that this isn’t generally the truth. Kid gloves are required for this sort of thing. That being said, this is something I’d let someone else handle, simply because I’d say something blunt and honest, and would be considered rude. Other than trying to let her see just how she’s perceived by others, there’s not much else that can be done. I had a teacher in high school that loved doing the Sharon Stone leg crossing maneuver. And NOTHING anyone said made any difference. It was an attention thing for her.
I would approach her gently and lovingly. You are both members of the same church, and therefore must keep each other accountable. You are also sisters in Christ. Kindly share Bible verses that discuss modesty with her and explain how her immodesty affects those around her.
If you don’t feel comfortable enough to talk directly to her, I would either talk to an elder or his wife, or your pastor or his wife.
There are some young women in my church who dress not so modest, and last year at our annual Church Picnic…one of them was wearing a plunging, spaghetti-strap top. The next time I saw her, she was wearing something MUCH more modest. Someone had lovingly told her to change her top because it was inappropriate.
I would say let it go …. if you don’t have a relationship with her then let it go … otherwise PRAY for her and for an opening to talk to her about the subject. Maybe suggest a Secret Keeper’s type activity for the women of the church so she doesn’t feel completely singled out? And remember modesty is more about the heart than the dress, and American culture is not the only way to dress modestly either. I would seriously spend quite a bit of time in prayer over it first, discuss it further with hubby and consider including other ladies in a “modesty” study before singling her out.
This is a touchy subject – IT am a very happily married wife, and used to teach in our church school and do spechial singing, etc. I have always considered myself to be a very modest dresser. Now, I will say that my hubby likes me to wear v-necks and some are lower, but thy are not shwing off my bust.However, we moved out of state a few years ago and became members at a new church – now I still dress the same way, but the pastors wife came and told me that my dresses, tops had too low of a neckline and that was inmodest example – however at the same time she wears clothes that show her braw straps, see her panty lines, wears sleaveless shirts that you can see her braw when she raises her arms, etc. I simply don’t think it’s right to tell others how they are dressing.It has defentaly strained our relationship and now when ever I know she will be somewhere I am goining -i stress over what to wear and most often end up not going at all.
She should be approached in love & friendship – by both women in the church (first by a friend, then by 2, then by the body; as scripture tells us to) and also by school authorities where she teaches.
I am married and as all men do (if you don’t think so, then you’re naive) my husband struggles with lust. It’s just part of being a man. It really upsets me when women excuse their own and other’s immodesty as “the man’s problem”. As Christian sisters to the men in our church, it is our responsibility to help protect them in whatever way we can. It is sin to over-expose our bodies and then blame men for their natural response to it. God tells us not to do things that causes others to sin – so even if she doesn’t see a problem with how she dresses, a woman needs to consider how that affects men who are trying honor God and other women with their eyes and minds.
Is there someone above her as head of the children’s ministry ?
I’m a leader in kids ministry at the church I attend and our leader of kids ministry reminds all the leades of how long clothes should be etc at least once a year. Infact it is a part of the rules / guidelines for being a part of our kids ministry, along with living in a Christian manner as we are witnesses a all times even if its not at church we could run into children at the shops etc.
We’ve had 2 leaders removed from ministry for breaking these rules, One got pregnant outside of marriage and the other was constantly getting drunk and posting about it on Facebook and was sleeping with her boyfriend. A leader who isnt meeting the suitableness of clothes in our ministry is sent home to change otherwise they arent allowed to lead that Morningstar they aren’t a good example to the kids.
I’d speak to the leader of the kids ministry about setting guidelines for what’s acceptable for the leaders to wear.
Ours is any shorts or skirts must come down to just above the knee at minimum for length amd we have a polo shirt that any kids ministry leader has to wear so parents can instantly recognize that we are leaders in the ministry if they see us with children.
I don’t think there was anything said about this woman being in children’s ministry. I think if she were, guidelines would be totally acceptable.
I’d like to offer a man’s point of view.nothing I’ve seen worn in church is anywhere near as provocative as what i see on the streets every day.. If you are afraid he is tempted what you can do is make sure he is satisfied at home.Ultimately how he handles temptation is his responsibility,but you can lessen and possibly eliminate the temptation.Change the things you can,accept the things you can’t, and pray for wisdom to know the difference.
This is simple, very reasonable advice. Somtimes, we women tend to complicate things. Thank you for sharing your male perspective.
Ted I totally understand your point but at the same time, men should be able to come to church and be safe (or at least safer) from the temptations of the world. Also – the world is full of non christian women but the church has a much higher percentage of christian women attending and one would think, therefore a much higher following of what God wants for us and therefore less flaunting of the body.
Maybe you could address it by having a bible study or Sunday school lesson on how women should dress (1 Timothy 2:9). That way she won’t feel ambushed! Just a thought.
I agree with the others about not talking to her unless you have a friendship with her. What I do, is if I see a girl who is dress inappropriately I will quickly warn my husband telling him where she is so he doesn’t look that way and see something he doesn’t want to see. If we are in close quarters (Sunday school class) we will sit where she is not in direct view of him. It helps both of us. My husband can keep his eye pure more easily (he is faithful about doing this) and I don’t get upset because he saw something he shouldn’t (even though at that point it wouldn’t be his fault).
My response is to let it go as well, and for goodness sake, do not gossip about her to others! You said that she doesn’t “understand how she comes across”. Is that her? Or is it others judging her? Only God is her judge, and we are called to love. Your other comment, “It’s hard sitting in church knowing that this is what everybody else is thinking.” horrifies me! If everyone at church is thinking about her than they are there for the wrong reasons!!
Everyone has their own idea of what being modest is. Some people feel that women should have their heads covered. Others feel it’s inappropriate to show your knees. Who draws the line and where? You have no idea why she dresses the way that she does. If she’s married, she could be dressing in a way that her husband wants her to dress. Should she not submit to him? The heart is what matters, and God will judge her accordingly. And don’t forget that He will judge you too!
I totally agree with this.
While a line may be hard to draw, there are always things that cross it. I have been to a service with one young woman (girl actually) who was literally “hanging out” with everything on display. There are some things that are clearly unacceptable in a church (or in public!) no matter what a person’s views on modesty.
I didn’t see a husband mentioned at all, but even if she married, then no, if her husband is telling her to do something wrong, she not submit to him. I have known of women who dressed totally inappropriate for anything outside of the bedroom (and gone to church dressed like that) because their husband wanted it, but what their husband wanted was sinful – their husbands wanted to show them off, have other guys lusting after them. In cases like that, where women feel like they can’t say no to their husbands, often someone coming along side of them, asking them why they dress the way they do, can give them someone to open to about why they are choosing to follow their husbands rather than God – in cases like that, there is often deeper issues of abuse (or past abuse) involved, and giving the woman a chance to open up and can give the woman courage to say no to a husband asking her to do something she knows is wrong.
Submission to humans is not to be blind – whether it’s husbands, teachers, the government and even pastors – if someone asks us to do something we know is wrong, we shouldn’t submit – we should gently say that God commands that we should do otherwise.
I think you totally missed the point of my comment, but in response…I used to be a rather frumpy dresser who did not care about fashion. I married a very classy man who has helped me a lot in the fashion department. Sometimes I wore things that he loved on me that I wasn’t entirely comfortable in. I love how he has given me confidence and transformed me into a beautiful woman who’s not afraid to show it.
Unless you are friends, I would just pray for the Holy Spirit to convict her. Orchestrating a modesty lesson, or wrangling the elders or pastor’s wife into it is awfully contrived. Are we even certain it is how Jesus would handle this? I don’t know sometimes if our modern church would be recognizable to the early church. Where is the love? Are we harping on the wrong thing?
Totally agree, Maggie! 🙂
I absolutely couldn’t agree more. These kinds of things make church into a place where people have to toe pretty stringent guidelines, forcing people to look like they are totally mature when they have growing to do. Also, talking like this emphasizes the point of view that women’s bodies are somehow for consumption, and if they don’t want that, then they should cover up. It’s important that we take responsibility for *one another* in our weakness — not that we force one group of people to take responsibility for the other. Also, these kinds of issues really breed infighting and keep us from focusing on the gospel.
It saddens me that church has become a place “to fit in”. I will echo Amy and say that the world is full of different opinions of what is appropriate to wear. She is an adult and it is her choice to wear what she wants whether we find it offensive or whether it meets our standards. If you talk to her about her clothing you will most likely lose the chance of sharing life with and getting to know a beautiful person and she will find somewhere else to find community. Or maybe she will leave with a broken spirit and the idea that all Christians only care about physical appearance and never find community with other believers. A similar situation happened to me. I was in the church choir and I was told that I needed to dress “nicer” when we sang, but I didn’t have anything nicer than what I was wearing. I was embarrassed and ashamed and was no longer part of the choir. These things just shouldn’t happen. People are so much more important than what they are wearing.
AMen and hugs
Yes!! <3
I have seen this from both sides of the problem. My first husband was treated extremely poorly by the church we went to – bullied, ridiculed, mocked – because he sometimes went to church in ripped clothing and a few times even went barefoot. This was before we were married, he was out of work at the time, and his ripped clothing was all he had, and he was saving the one pair of shoes he had for things like job interviews because he couldn’t afford a replacement. It also didn’t help that his tshirts were of rock bands and some of the people at church were offended by the bands.
They wanted to conform him into their preppy yuppy look but at the same time, not one person offered to help him out to afford something nicer. They were wrong to judge him for his inability to afford better just as the people at your church were wrong to judge you for not wearing something nicer.
But the issue with the original poster isn’t the “niceness” of the clothes. “Niceness” and “modesty” aren’t the same. You can get some really grungy falling-apart modest clothes, and you can get some really nice fancy but totally immodest clothing.
There is a huge grey area when it comes to modesty, but there are definitely things that cross the line, and in cases like that, some thing does need saying some how.
McDonald’s has a dress code for its employees. How come people get offended when a church has a dress code.
I have seen young women come to church dressed as if they’re out on the town for a night of clubbing! Short skirts, plunging necklines and 4 inch stiletto heels. I don’t think those kinds of outfits are appropriate for church. While it’s a different world nowadays, I think we ought to be mindful that nobody (men AND women)wants to see your breasts hanging out of your shirt or your undewear because your skirt is too short.
If it were me and I didn’t have a close relationship with this person, I’d send her an anonymous note in the mail saying that her wardrobe choices are garnering unwanted attention from the males in the church and she should consider a more appropriate wardrobe to wear on Sundays.
Courtney at Women Living Well had an elder in her church approach her when she wore a short dress to church that showed her panties when she bent down to pick up her infant son’s carrier! It’s a good post!
Shoes are just shoes! How can 4 inches be inappropriate? That is just an opinion and I respectfully disagree with that one!
Can we just be glad to see people! Approach them and say, “it’s great to see you at Church today!”, not glare at them and whisper to others about our disproval of their clothing choices.
My 2 sense! 🙂
The only people I see wearing 4 inch heels are celebrities and those dressed less than appropriate for church. You wanna wear those heels out to the club fine I don’t think they’re appropriate for church because high heels are associated with prostitutes. The heels are often paired with ultra mini skirts and sleevless v neck tops. I don’t see women that are dressed modestly wearing sky high heels. I just don’t. A high heel puts accent on the leg and makes the leg more attractive to the male. My 11th grade sex ed teacher (a male) told us this!
It’s hard not to glare at the 5ft young woman who with her 5 inch heels now stands at your eye level. LIke (I believe Sheila said) we are judged on what we’re wearing. That’s how the world works.
4 inch heels and prostitution? Totally disagree. We’ve become judgmental on this thread if we get to this level. I’m married to a senior pastor who has a duel doctorate in theology, and I’m an ordained pastor…both me and my daughter love our heels and we are not prostitutes. We love The Lord and He loves us.
Very interesting comment.
High heels have only become in vogue over the last few years due to Hollywood celebrities. Prior to that, the only people wearing 4or 5 inch heels (stillettos) were streetwalkers…you never used to see the high heels on the shelves at Walmar or Payless, only in Fredericks of Hollywood catalogs. Ever see the movie Pretty Woman? With Julia Roberts? Those kinds of boots she wore as a prostitute were NOT seen at Walmart or Paylesss back in 1990. Now, similar boots and heels of the same height are all over the shelves.
At 5’9 inches tall, I have a HARD time finding a shoe that doesn’t have a 3 or 4 inch heel on the shelves at the local discount stores. I think wearing heels of that height is not appropriate for church. Nor should a teenager be wearing heels of that height either.
Call me judgemental, I call it old fashioned values and I’m OK with that. I did things the old fashioned way. I graduated high school, then went to college, then got married and THEN had a baby. If the world had kept the old fashoned values..I don’t think society would be in the shape it’s in today.
Curious as to where you may live. I’m knocking 50 and 4 inch heels have been around when I was in high school. Allow me to throw in another angle…diversity. In the Africian -American church at times we wear hats, some wear gloves, 4 inch heels, etc. my great-great grandma dressed that way, and we all graduated, went to college, got married etc. – old school.
Just a thought that we should consider diversity, but most importantly look to Jesus who said, love your neighbor as yourself.
I’m a 40 yr old caucasian woman who lives in the midwest USA. I grew up Roman Catholic. I NEVER saw any of the ladies in the RC Church wearing 4 in heels. The tallest heel I ever saw there was maybe 2 inches. Pretty much everyone either wore flats or 1/2 in heels. Definitely different from your AA church, that’s for sure! lol
Well…I’m Midwest as well and bottom line we are sisters in Christ! Heels or not…LOL
Sorry to jump in but can someone answer for me why so many christians respond with “it’s ok to wear it out to a club but not to church”. Surely modesty is modesty no matter what day of the week it is and no matter where you are?
Just because a woman is in a club, they are still a christian and shouldn’t be wearing clothes that are a deliberate invitation for guys to lust for them.
Can you avoid the question/judgement of modesty altogether, and just help her to see what others see? She is an adult, so she ultimately will make the decision she is comfortable with as far as how she dresses – but if she can understand how it influences others, perhaps she can adjust a few things (like adding a layer) without sacrificing her sense of style completely.
I once had a situation where a young woman (older teen) was dressed in something that earned her a fair amount of male attention, which she appeared not to notice, being busy with work. I prefaced my comment by saying “I have sons and daughters, so I’m taking a chance, and coming across as a ‘Mom’ here… As I was standing in line, I noticed that the men around me were being very gentlemanly and looking away when you worked the till, and I thought you might want to know why…Your shirt is very pretty, and when you stand up nice and straight, it covers everything it is designed to… but when you lean forward a little bit and make change for customers, there is a LOT more of your chest visible. You don’t come across as the kind of girl who is looking for that kind of attention, so I just wanted to mention it to you…I hope someone would do that for my daughters, too.” She was very appreciative, though embarrassed… Perhaps there is a way to gently point it out, while assuming the best of this woman at church – e.g. that she is not actually *trying* to attract attention. This approach may also alert her that she could be seen as someone who is seeking attention, which she may be unaware of.
Whatever is done, it should be face to face, and not anonymously, or she’ll be likely to feel out of place and gossiped about. Like EVERYONE is looking at her that way, KWIM? If you don’t have the courage to discuss it with her personally, perhaps an older married woman in the church would (and she would have the perspective of her husband to attest to his thoughts/reactions to the mode of dress) .. plus I’ve found that when the men who might be looking are significantly older than the woman, sometimes that is a less appealing thought! I have spoken with girls in highschool who do not realize that not only is the hunky college guy looking, but the 40 yr old construction workers, 55 yr old businessmen and 70 yr old grandfathers also notice female assets… and that thought is a LOT less appealing to them! LOL!
What is your role? -That all depends on if you have a relationship with her or not. If you don’t then you can’t say anything. If you are a good friend and it is out of love for her and concern for her (and not for other reasons like you don’t want the men to lust or you don’t want “your church” to look anything but all shiny and clean), then you can talk to her about it.
Those are my thoughts! 🙂
I’ve had a negative reaction to the posts which place the blame on women for men’s lustful thoughts, and the responsibility on women to “protect” men against their potential impurity.
Women lust, too. I like men and I like sex. So – does this mean the guy who sits in front of me in church needs to wear baggy pants instead of those fitted slacks that show off his well developed glutes oh so nicely? Should he wear baggy, untucked shirts so I’m not distracted by how his waist tapers in and don’t wonder whether that flat stomach is a six pack? Should I tell him to only wear long sleeve shirts because watching his biceps flex as he picks up the hymnal causes me to have inappropriate and lustful thoughts? Or — should I simply avert my eyes, tell myself “no,” remind myself of my vows to God and my husband and stop it. Does this sound ridiculous? I hope so, because it is, and it’s just as ridiculous to say that women have to watch what they wear to protect the helpless men. At the extreme end of that argument is the Taliban, forcing women to wear burkas and hijabs, covered from head to foot so that they don’t tempt the poor men.
Also – I like nice things. I really, really do. I struggle with the sins of avarice and coveting my neighbors’ goods. Does this mean my husband has the duty and responsibility to buy me enough nice things so that I can avoid the sins I struggle with? Or is it my responsibility to change my attitude, be grateful for what we have, and own and address my sin?
Men are going to be exposed to immodestly dressed women. They are everywhere in our culture and unless a man can never leave his home he better learn how to control his eyes and look away. You know, there are a lot of sins, and the temptation to engage in them is everywhere in this world. Pride, greed, gossip, self-righteousness, jealousy, resentment – the list goes on and on. Every single person struggles with sin and we alone are responsible for avoiding it. It is bizarre to me that there is this extreme focus on the sin of lust instead of the myriad of other sins, and the transfer of responsiblity for that sin to someone other than the sinner.
I’m glad you said it that way. It opened my eyes to it in a different way than I had previously thought of it.
Speaking of this, that kind of makes me think of something. Someone mentioned (I think) the Bible verse that talks about how women should adorn themselves with spiritual beauty rather than….I can’t remember exactly how it goes, but it gave me the sentiment that yes, we shouldn’t dress in a provocative way. Which, I still think is true, but I don’t always do such a great job of that – I do wear low-cut tops sometimes that I find elegant and feminine, and fitted skirts (albeit knee-or-midi-length, they still show off my rear end), and so on. The point is that I LOVE clothes, and I love to wear pretty and feminine things, and I make it a big priority in my life. To the point where over the years, since I started buying my own clothes as a teen, I’m sure I have spent over ten thousand dollars on clothes, all put together, sewing fabric and notions included. Probably much more than ten thousand, because I’ve spent a few thousand on lingerie alone, according to my Victoria’s Secret credit card bill. But, according to that Bible verse, it’s not supposed to be a priority. So really I’m sinning when it comes to clothing. I don’t know if that makes sense, as far as what I’m trying to say….it just occurred to me. So I think I’ll be less likely from now on to judge people for their clothing choices.
Thanks for the points that you made.
Thanks, Jenny, I love to see beautifully dressed women. I tend towards safe, neutral clothing and over the last several years I’ve gained weight due to a medication I have to take, so I don’t enjoy clothes because they don’t look so great on me right now. There is a woman at my church who dresses exceptionally well — not overdone, not immodest, but excellent taste and she just looks elegant and really pleasing to the eye. She has a great figure, clothes look good on her and she dresses with class and style. So I get my fashion fix watching her. It makes me smile — I love to see her, see how she put different pieces together, different colors, etc. She’s a very nice person, kind, helpful, involved at church, etc. I think there is a difference between vanity and focusing too much on appearances and being your best self, which includes presenting yourself physically in a pleasing manner. Only you know if you over-emphasize your appearance, but you probably bring pleasure to both men and women. We all like beauty, and that doesn’t equal lust. In Italy and here in the US back in the day, dressing well and paying attention to your appearance was a sign of respect for yourself and others. I think it would be good to regain a little of that attitude.
Oh, I completely understand gaining weight due to medicine….I’ve had that problem as well! I was really skinny before and gained 20 pounds so I’m not overweight by any means (the doctor says my weight is perfect), I just have curves now where I didn’t so much before. Which actually looks better with some clothes. But, it is strange to get used to a new body! I know it’s a dirty song but I always smile about “Baby Got Back”: “So Cosmo says you’re fat – Well, I’m not down with that! ‘Cause your waist is small and your curves are kickin’.” 🙂 I’m sure you still look great! We women are too hard on ourselves when it comes to appearance.
I also want to say, you’re right that there is a difference between vanity and simply being the best you. And there is a difference between lust and appreciating beauty. I notice and appreciate when a woman is beautiful, or when I like what she is wearing, but I’m not lusting after her. Also, thank you for what you said about appreciating that woman’s beauty and style even though you don’t feel comfortable wearing the things you used to. I always used to approach it as, oh I’m inferior (even though in my head I know I’m not, in my heart my emotions make me feel I am), when really I should realize that just because someone is beautiful doesn’t mean I’m not. That sounds so stupid. I’m just realizing a lot, since I started praying really hard last night about my struggles, one of which was being insecure in myself.
I think we need to step back from looking at it like “I am taking responsibility for someone else’s sin” and start looking at it as protecting our brothers in the faith. Would you invite a recovering alcoholic over just to flaunt the contents of your liquor cabinet to them? Or would you take someone who struggles with credit card debt out shopping and help them sign up for every store credit card available? I certainly hope not! Obviously, we cannot stop every individual from lusting, but why should/would we tempt them at every given opportunity? There are still ways to be fashionable without having to reveal it all. You can still flatter your figure without giving away every curve. Scripture tells us to be in the world but not of the world. I think when we use the “fashion” excuse we are taking our own desires and placing them above others, and ultimately saying that things of this world and how I feel are more important than the struggles of my Christian brothers. I think the Taliban is a rather extreme case to use here, and that we could all benefit by finding a common ground between that and the overtly sexy clothes many find ways to justify.
Hm, that reminds me of the passage where Paul? said that anything is allowed to us, but if it causes our brother to stumble then we shouldn’t do it in front of him.
No, I think that was Peter….maybe?
I agree that women should dress modestly, but out of self respect and respect for the fact that your body is the temple of God. The problem with blaming women for tempting men is deciding where is the line as to what is tempting. A fitted pair of slacks will show a nice rear end and men will look and some will be tempted. A not low cut but fitted sweater or top will show the curve of a woman’s breast and some men will lust. A pair of shorts that hit mid thigh will showcase a great pair of legs and whoops, there goes lust again. Men frequently remind us how visual they are, so unless women wear completely unflattering, baggy clothes, men who struggle with the sin of lust will lust. Hence the burqas and hijabs. Yes, it’s an extreme example, but it’s the exact same argument.
As I said upthread, I look at men and struggle with impure thoughts about good looking men, so I know what it’s like. The men I see at work or at church aren’t wearing revealing clothing, but if they have a really good body, it shows. When I see a woman carrying a certain brand of designer handbag, I want one. If I’m invited to a party at a certain friend’s gorgeous home, I can feel envy. Do I blame the men, the woman with the handbag or my friend for my tendency to sin? Should the men get pot bellies so they don’t attract me, should women stop carrying designer bags, should my friend move, all so I won’t be tempted?
We can’t rearrange the world to avoid our temptations. We can only pray for the strength and the grace to be transformed.
I also struggle with looking at good looking men, lust is a sin I know all too well and I also understand that not all lust can be eradicated. However, we are ignorant if we deny that there are a few key areas of a woman’s body that the majority of men find the most struggle with. I don’t think that there can be a definitive line drawn, but I do think we can have decency and attempt to not cause our brothers to stumble. Paul writes in Romans 14 about each of us having to account to God for our actions, and then follows that with this verse,
“Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.” Romans 14:13
I have no right to pass judgement on anyone else, but I have to be able to examine my own heart, “If I am dressing this way, knowing that it may cause another to stumble, can I go before God and account for my actions?” I don’t need to necessarily dress in burlap sacks, but I don’t need to go to church looking like I just came from the Victoria’s Secret runway show either. I can respectfully cover those areas that often lead to lust, and not deliberately put a stumbling block in front of another man. If I do my part, and he still stumbles, then that is his accord to settle with the Lord.
I understand what you’re saying about good looking men… the reality is, men too have a duty to dress modestly precisely because there are women who struggle with lust. Hot christian guys do need to be careful not to be immodest and I spent most of my life at a church where some guys did have an issue with immodesty and purely because they liked the female attention.
It would be unfair to ask a guy to wear long sleeve shirts just in case women perved at his home but if he turned up at church in a gym shirt with 90% of his bare chest showing (or what some guys I knew did at church events and just went around constantly without shirts on, knowing full well it was to get female attention), then yes, it would be fair to tell them to cover up a bit and stop being immodest.
It’s gotten rather ridiculous. My wife and I regularly laugh at the “Sunday Morning Slutwalk.” We see 40-year old moms of 3 with miniskirts far more revealing than what the teenagers wear.
But it’s more than a laughing matter. My boys will be hitting puberty soon…. what to do? The Orthodox Jewish standard is knees, elbows, neckline, and no heels…. that’s modest and yet still allows to be dressed more or less attractively. Maybe we should be advocating that as a church standard. Also, something for men — although in this case, a double standard is somewhat justified, since men are FAR MORE visual than women.
No easy answers. Especially when its 95 out. Even I wear shorts then.
“The Sunday morning slutwalk.” Wow. Would you like some stones to throw at them, too?
Talk about judgmental, d. That was unnecessary.
Anna, what did you think about the “slutwalk” comment?
d: Go read this post:
https://tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2013/04/reader-question-of-the-week-help-women-around-my-husband-dress-inappropriately/#comment-23028
For the record, here was the response I sent to the questioner:
That’s a tough one! A few thoughts:
I’d be wary of praying too much about this with friends or with your husband, because that can just feed the problem in your own mind. I think you need to make a decision: are you going to confront her, or not? And if you decide not to, then you must let it go. No talking to your friend or your husband about it. No talking to anyone about it. Just ignore it completely.
If, instead, you decide to say something, then I think your only option is to be totally direct and totally up front. Don’t ask someone else to do it, because that invites gossip. Just keep it between the two of you. Just say that you’re concerned because she may not understand how she’s coming across. Say that you think she’s lovely, and tell her what fruits of the spirit you do see in her life, and tell her that you feel awkward because you know there are things that you do that bother other people, too. But just say that you would rather say it to her than have other people talking about it.
Just ask her, in Christian love, if she could wear slacks or longer skirts in front of your husbands, because many of them do try really hard not to look at other women, but it’s just difficult when you’re all in a circle and she has so much leg showing.
And you just don’t want to create a toxic environment where people are saying things about her but not saying them to her.
I don’t know which route is best; I don’t know if you should say something or not. So much depends on what God is doing in her life; if she’s a relatively new Christian, I’d probably not say anything right now because you don’t want the enemy to use this controversy to end her faith.
But I think those are your options: leave it completely (which means not talking to anyone about it), or speaking to her directly, one on one.
Those are both hard options. I pray your choice is obvious!
Great response, Sheila!!
I agree, that’s a wonderful response!
Perfect response Sheila. Two options… confront her or keep your mouth shut. Personally I think that the only people we should confront are those who we have a close friendship and/or relationship of mutual confrontation. I do have to disagree with one thing you said.. you suggested that she could ask this woman to please wear slacks or longer skirts in front of her husband. I’m sorry, I really don’t think anyone has the right to tell anyone else what they can and can’t wear in front of their spouse. To suggest that she examine her clothing choices is one thing… to tell her what she can and can’t wear seems a bit much. I realize it is basically the same thing, but honestly, if someone at church approached me and told me what I can and can’t wear in front of her husband, I would be highly offended and would most likely either not come back or wear an even shorter skirt just to be ornery. On the other hand, if I were approached with a humble, gentle “Could I ask you to pray about your wardrobe choices?” leaves the issue between me and God… exactly where it should be.
There are two young women at church. Both used to dress very inappropriately even as teens. Short skirts, high heels. Very inappropriate for church. Well one of the girls got pregnant and had a baby. Guess who no longer dresses inappropriately?
The one who had the baby out of wedlock. The other young woman still dresses in short skirts and high heels. And yet she wonders why she can’t keep a boyfriend..It could be with how she presents herself to the world, which is shown primarily in how we are dressed
I think this is a gracious response although I don’t know that I’d mention the wearing of slacks. I would suggest maybe longer skirts.
I know this is a tricky subject, but wanted to throw another angle into the ring. It really could be that she doesn’t know that what she is wearing is inappropriate. I came to Christ when I was 18, and hadn’t had the benefit of godly women speaking into my life. Although God led me through understanding the benefits of dressing modestly over the couple of years following my conversion, it would have made things a lot easier if someone had laid it out for me earlier. And I don’t mean that I wanted a list of rules, but a reminder that it boils down to praying through clothing choices. If I can get dressed and honestly go before the Lord and know that He is comfortable with what I’m wearing, I know that I’m making modest choices.
I could be wrong, but there seems to be a giant fear of approaching an immodestly dressed woman in case it scares her away from church (and God) altogether, particularly if they are a new christian. But having been to a church where certain women dressed very immodestly for male attention, I have seen what it does to men. I have seen men (particularly new christians) driven away from that church, from all church and sometimes even from God, because they come to church and are surrounded by “christian” women who dressed immodestly and “christian” men who went out of their way to encourage (to perv) and all they could see was the hypocrisy of christians, and thought that if christians were no different from the rest of the sexually charged world, then what was the point of being a christian?
For a newly converted man to be bombarded with incredibly immodest women at church and church events constantly, it can destroy their faith far more than gently approaching with love, an immodestly dressed woman.
I think the situation you describe would be a perfect opportunity to exhort these young men to look to Christ instead of other people. People are sinners; we always fail. Christ never will, but as long as we look to others’ behavior to justify our faith in Christ our faith will falter.
If you’re not her best friend, I strongly recommend praying for her and keep this to yourself. Modesty is often just an opinion of where the line should be, and it varies person to person. No matter how loving you might intend to be, it has a good chance of coming off as judgmental and legalistic. You’re taking a big chance of offending her and doing more damage than you’re trying to prevent.
Just on a personal level, I’d never be able to take that type of comment from somebody that wasn’t my friend.
Even coming from a very dear friend, judgements on the (im)modesty of clothing can be hurtful, when two people have different ideas about what modesty is. The best way to think about it (and encourage friends to think about) is “am I getting a lot of unwanted attention?” and “do I have a clean conscience before God?” There are huge variances in modesty from one culture to another, and even one subculture or social circle to another. Some men & women will struggle with lust (and others with envy / insecurity!) in any group, and more than trying to eliminate temptation it is our place as brothers & sisters in Christ to come alongside and help, teach and encourage them to overcome temptation! Temptation comes not from outside us but from within our own hearts.
Just finished reading this great post.
http://laurennicolelove.com/blog/beauty-fashion/7-things-to-remember-when-talking-about-modesty-how-people-dress/
Would love to read but the link is broken (site is no longer there)
Just tried it from the comments, and it worked fine.
I’m still getting the same error. I’ll try googling the article’s name and see if that makes a difference to viewing it.
Yawn… I’ve fought too long and too hard for someone to casually walk around the men in my life leading them into temptation… I will not compromise my family in order to keep the peace with a complete stranger. Yes I should love the stranger but guess who my obligations are to? My family. I am called to protect and love my family. They come first. So I’d say “sorry girl, put this scarf around your shoulders, wear my coat and bring it back next week, or leave. God loves you and hates that you attract predators your way. He wants to save you and protect you so don’t test Him.”