1 Corinthians 7:5. That’s a sticky verse. And today we’re going to start a three-part series on what Paul’s trying to say in 1 Corinthians 7!
The most common conflict when it comes to sex in marriage is about frequency: one spouse tends to want more sex than the other, and this leads to the higher-libido spouse feeling unloved. Why doesn’t my wife want to show me love? Why doesn’t my husband desire me? Then this starts a vicious circle where the other spouse thinks, “is that all they want from me? Am I just an object?” And it goes downhill from there.
I’m not trying to answer the question how often should married couples have sex–I tackled that here–I want to look at the broader issues so that we can come to that conclusion ourselves, as a couple. So let’s dive in.
Often in Christian circles, when things start spiraling downward about this frequency of sex issue, someone will pull out 1 Corinthians 7:3-5, which says:
1 Corinthians 7:3- 5
3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
NIV
I’d like to spend a few posts this week looking at what 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 really means.
Let me start by sharing some stories with you. One woman wrote me last week, saying,
Last week my husband was away on business for five days. We usually have sex about 4 times a week. After he came home and we had the kids in bed, we started kissing and I [began to make love to him]. He stopped, because he was upset that I wanted just sex, and didn’t want to [please him in other ways first]. I was only interested in what would make me feel good, and not interested in how he liked to feel good.
This woman, who is making love with frequency with her husband, has been told that she is never good enough because she doesn’t like the sex acts that he does. And she isn’t supposed to deprive him, he says.
In the comments to my post on “Sex Should be Mutual“, one man wrote this, in response to my saying that men need to be sensitive when a wife is recovering from childbirth or is having our periods:
Paul tells us “Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” (1 Cor 7:5)
The period of abstinence after pregnancy and during the wife’s period is not by mutual agreement so that the couple can devote themselves to prayer. It is being forced on us men because we are being told to give our wives a break.
Since the husband did not agree to stop having sex, the wife can’t either, he claims.
And that’s my point of contention today: too often these verses are used as weapons, which makes sex into simply an obligation. Here’s how I replied to this man:
God does not ask us to love Him without first loving us. It’s mutual. And sex should be mutual, too. God created it for women as much as for men. And when we start saying, “men need sex and can’t last five days without it, so women need to service him,” we make sex into something very transactionally based and obligation based.
That is no fun.
I believe that most things in the Christian life are not cut and dry.
We live in constant tension, and indeed, the Bible is in tension. Is it grace or works? Is it justice or mercy? Is it free will or predestination? None of these things has easy answers; the truth is always found in the middle, after struggling. And that struggling is important, in and of itself. We’re supposed to wrestle with God on the hard questions.
And so I believe that these verses include some wrestling. So today I’m going to wrestle with one side of it, and then I’ll wrestle with the other tomorrow before coming to a conclusion on Wednesday about what the Do Not Deprive verses mean in their complete context..
First, let’s note what this verse does not say. Paul did not write:
Do not refuse one another, except by mutual consent and for a time…
He wrote do not deprive.
Deprive is not the same as refuse. I believe many people interpret this verse to mean refuse. Are women obligated to have sex every time a man wants it? Are we ever allowed to refuse?
Well, let’s look more closely at deprive.
If I were to say to you, “do not deprive your child of good food,” what am I implying? I’m saying that your child should get the food that is commonly recognized for good health: three healthy meals a day, with some snacks. I am not saying that every time your child pulls at your leg and says, “Mommy, can I have a bag of cheetos?” that you have to say yes. You are not depriving your child of good food by refusing a request for Cheetos.
Deprive implies that there is a level of sexual activity that is necessary for a healthy marriage. And, to extend the food analogy a little bit, this doesn’t mean that we should be aiming for the minimum, either: for instance, life in concentration camps proved that you could keep people alive with one meal a day at 800 calories. But that is NOT healthy.
So we shouldn’t be aiming for the minimum; we should realize that there is a level where two people can feel intimate and close, and that is likely quite frequently.
But it does not mean that it is every single time a person wants sex.
The fact that the preceding verses in 1 Corinthians 7 say that the husband’s body is the wife’s, and the wife’s body is the husband’s, implies that one person cannot and must not force himself or herself onto the other person. And by force I’m not talking about just physical force. There’s emotional blackmail, there’s shutting down, there’s telling someone, “you’re just not good enough”. There’s acting like the man in the first email, who was upset because his wife preferred mutual intercourse to the racier things that he wanted instead. And he took it out on her.
Let’s assume that it’s the wife with the lower libido for a minute (though it certainly isn’t always) and look at it this way:
If her husband’s body belongs to her, then she has the ability to also say, “I do not want you using your body sexually right now with me.”
If she feels sick, or is really sad, or is exhausted, then her having ownership of his body also means that she can say, “I just can’t right now” without needing to feel guilty–if she is at the same time not depriving him.
Are you TIRED of always being too tired for sex?
Do you yearn to actually WANT to make love–and figure out what all the fuss is about?
There is a way! And in this 10-module course I take you through what libido is (it may surprise you!), what affects libido, and how we can reclaim the excitement that God made us for.
I believe that the admonition “do not deprive each other” refers to the relationship as a whole, not to each individual moment.
So if, in the relationship as a whole, you are having regular and frequent sex, then if one of you says, “not tonight”, that is not depriving. That is simply refusing for right now.
There are many commenters who have said that a wife doesn’t have the right to refuse according to this verse, because she would be depriving him. To this I would print this comment from reader Kelly:
Yep, some of the comments you read by men on these marriage websites are precisely why Christian women are beginning to advise each other not to risk marrying a Christian man! (I’m not kidding). Look, guys, here’s a quick lesson in the blindingly obvious: there’s no quicker way to make sex unappealing to your wife than by demanding it, regardless of how she feels. No better way of making yourself unattractive and frankly repellent than by sexual coercion. No no effective way of losing your wife’s respect – she wants a real man, not some oaf (because if you can enjoy sex knowing the other person isn’t enjoying it, there’s something very wrong with you). And really, no one past the age of 14 should need telling that. Of COURSE, a sexless marriage has problems that need addressing. Of COURSE you should ask if you want more/different sex to be happy. Of COURSE you can explain to her why sexual rejection hurts. But here’s a little clue (again from the ‘stating the obvious’ files): why do I enjoy nothing more than making love with my husband? Why can I not keep my hands off him? Why am I keen to give him pleasure even if I’m occasionally not in the mood or unable to participate myself? Because, while making it obvious he finds me desirable, he also wouldn’t WANT to have sex with me unless I was an enthusiastic participant. Because he can’t stand the idea of it being a one-way experience.
And I would echo what Kelly said at the beginning of her comment: in conversations with men, I have often found that it is the non-Christian men who are more giving and tolerant of their wives than the Christian men. Too many Christian men think they have the right to demand sex whenever and wherever because of this verse. And it is not true. That is ignoring the mutuality of the whole context of that passage, and I think distorts what Paul meant in 1 Corinthians 7:5.
God does not ask us to love Him without first loving us. It’s mutual. And sex should be mutual, too. God created it for women as much as for men.
There is a difference between refusing occasionally and depriving someone habitually.
Tomorrow I’ll look at it from the other side–our obligation to have regular and frequent sex–and then I’ll try to put forward a balanced approach.
For now, though, what are your initial thoughts? Have you ever heard this verse used as a weapon?
Read the Do Not Deprive Series:
Sheila Wray Gregoire has been married for 27 years and happily married for 22! She loves traveling around North America with her hubby in their RV, giving her signature "Girl Talk" about sex and marriage. And she's written 8 books. About sex and marriage. See a theme here? Plus she knits. Even in line at the grocery store.
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Something related that I’ve been thinking about lately, is how pretty much every Christian marriage blog out there makes sex into a purely physical thing, with a slight mention of the emotional and spiritual side of things (which seems to be an unimportant afterthought in many cases). It’s really starting to bother me.
I never turn my husband down, and I genuinely want to make love to him frequently because I feel connected to him emotionally and spiritually. But I see on a regular basis how selfless he is, how sex to him is more than just the physical – to him, it’s never been just about sex. It’s about me, it’s about us. I feel cherished by him because I know he’s not just concerned about his next “fix.”
So yes, I have held to and mentioned that Bible verse in the past as well, but I think that many Christian marriage bloggers have become so obsessed with sex as something that they have (perhaps unknowingly) begun to approach it as mainly physical, that they have basically cast aside the most important and fulfilling aspect of it.
We have to remember what marital intimacy is really about, and that it’s so much more than the physical act of sex. Yes, that is important, and it is wonderful – but it means nothing if you don’t nurture a true connection in your marriage, and truly seek to love one another and respect one another in a godly way.
I agree that there is a big difference between refusing and depriving.
As I said, yesterday when I read this it brought to mind something that I’ve been thinking about lately – that is, the way a lot of Christians seem to approach sex. I talked to my husband about it in-depth, and collaborated with him to write a blog post about how perhaps Christians are bringing the world’s carnality into their marriages without even realizing it. I’ve been guilty of this, too! I think it’s time to discard of the world’s messages.
I truly find it amazing. You say that Christian men use this verse to there advantage. You need to dig more than your assumptions. I truly don’t believe that men that are getting regular sex is going to throw this at his wife. I truly suspect men use it when say it has been ten days since our last romp in the hay and before that it was two weeks and before that 16 days. The word deprive means refusal on a consistent basis. As in the example I just gave that is depriving her spouse of her marital responsibility. Now I don’t think any man is going to say I need sex from you now while phlegm and coughing is going on. Or you have some sort of infirmity. But let’s say you feel crappy for a week and then you feel better. Then it is your responsibility to go looking for your husband. Not him having to say hey Hun do you feel better can we have sex. That is what Paul was referring to. Paul is talking about your heart and its attitude. So you saying oh he’s a great dad but I’m just not attracted to him. That is what makes it a sin against God and against your spouse. It has always been about the attitude of the heart.
Sorry, you are wrong! Men who are addicted to sex and know their wife cares about pleasing the Lord will run right to this scripture to defend their addiction and objectifying her. They will cause a woman to feel great guilt if she does not feel like having sex daily or even more than once a day. She then becomes nothing more than a fix for her husband. She lives with the fact that if she feels horrible that day that she still must give him what he desires and sex becomes something very dreaded. Men can use the cloak of God and religion to get what they want. This is selfish and evil and must be looked at as abuse! It doesn’t say that man shall not live by having sex whenever he wants…It says man needs the word of God to live and not by bread alone…..Sex has been made such in issue in our lives…Do you think sex will be an issue when we are trying to survive in the world during the tribulation? Or when we are losing our health, or other tragedy strikes…For an addicted man, it will because he hasn’t overcome his addiction and he will use his wife like a drug, even when she is mourning over a recent loss, still using the bible to support his addiction and abuse of his wife’s body. We need to be very careful about interpreting scripture to meet our demands and lustful desires…. We need to first ask, does this person love our Lord, and if we can truly answer this with a yes, then we can assume he is just ignorant and will listen to reason…If we cannot answer yes, then I pray whoever you are that is dealing with this sort of man is not drug down in the pit with him and God intervenes to either save his soul and repair your marriage or saves you before your husband destroys you! Paul live a life devoted to God! He wasn’t worried about his instrument being played! We all need to step back and ask ourselves, is my marriage simply a tool to meet my lusts, or is there a sharing of God’s love and sacrifice, with each other and those we come in contact with every day! I have longed lived with a man that has led me into a pit! I’m starting to find my way out but it has taken 8 long years and my health has declined as well as my sense of self worth and my zest for life. I have PTSD symptoms and regret not being all I could be for my kids. Anyone using the bible to support his sexual urges and abuse of a woman’s body should be avoided at all costs before its too late and you have succumbed to his perverted ideology and demented view of women because he loves his body so much more than he could ever love yours….
So would you say that in 7 months time only being intimate 3 times is healthy and that i should be happy with that because that’s all wife has wanted it.
You may have to talk to your wife and find the underlying cause(s) as to why she doesn’t want sex.
Maybe she’s depressed? Maybe she feels pressured? Maybe she feels that’s all you want from her? Have you taken her on a date? Have you been romantic with her, with no expectations?
Does she even know how you feel?
I don’t know anything about what is normal with respect to frequency of sexual relations. I know I desire to have sexual relations with my wife but she no longer seems to have any desire to be intimate. The last time we had sexual relations was 7 years ago.
I am at a point where I no longer know how to initiate lovemaking. In the past 7 years my wife has given me her reasons why she does not feel like making love and there is a wide range of somatic complaints she issues. I am 70 and she is 63, and our physiques are no longer attractive to each other.
Yet I keep holding out for hope that we will engage in more frequent times of sexual intimacy than what we are now. Any suggestions?
That’s not healthy to me. There may be a reason why.
Great comment, I was wondering if anyone has been through the same as I. I related to this comment and it helped me, thank you.
My husband is much older than me and we have been struggling for the last 3 years with no sex. I have given him time to come to terms to maybe see a men’s doctor but he doesn’t make the effort to go leaving me feel he doesn’t value the needs for our marriage to be healthy.
So true. sex can be easily be an idol for husbands. However, I do think this happens easier when we women create an idol of him And convey a notion that we live to serve them and please them. I talk more about this in my blog Superfruitful.com
– This might be a blessing for people who struggle in this way. ❤️
What if your husband refuses to kiss you for just a minute or so and he’s not like sick or dying or anything… and you feel like you’re suffocating in the sexual affection department…? Is that deprived?… my orgasms have become more and more lack luster and I’m less and less interested and becoming more and more tempted to just take care of business by myself … I’ve talked with him about this but he seems indifferent… not that he doesn’t care… I mean in words he seems to care but not in actions…he ignores my sexual advances because he’s not ready for release and so we only have sex when he’s ready… I want sex sometimes without release/orgasm… but he has not accommodated me but once in 7 years… he sees my advances as selfish because he takes them to mean we’re going to actually do the whole thing… and if he doesn’t have the energy for the whole thing then he aint studying feeling that way… I’ve tried to talk with him about this time and again… it gets me no where… except maybe with him frustrated with me… I hate sex right now… I want to get off… like all the time… but I’m the one having to wait… all the time… on him… when is he going to be ready.. and then when he is it’s such a struggle to get off… because I haven’t had the mini-moments that I need … I need those to add up.. men think we just need non-sexual affection, no we also need sexual affection without the intent and purpose and goal for orgasm. When we don’t have a bunch of those stored up it’s a struggle to get off… so much so we end up resenting the whole process and avoiding it like the plague. Maybe if I let him read this… maybe then it will finally sink in… Lord, I hope so.
This is so beautifully written. Sex should be mutually beneficial not “parasitically” beneficial. Men do not need to use their lust and addiction to sexually enslave the woman. I personally cannot enjoy sex with my wife when her mind is not in it. I feel the pleasure more when she feels it too.
Thank you Jill, you just described my present situation with my husband. He is a Christian man who is insanely obsessed with sex and intimacy. As a Christian man, and according to his interpretation of biblical scripture, he believes he has the absolute right to grope my private parts; and have sex anytime he pleases. Because of this, I now find the very thought of him touching me, repulsive! I have repeatedly told him that he treats me more like his sex toy, than his wife; but he quotes that bible scripture that says, a wife’s body is the man’s, and no longer hers”. I am 66 years old (still work FT, 3-4, 12 hour shifts/ week, he is 69 years old, and retired. I come home from work absolutely exhausted, and have no problem preparing dinner for us, then tying up loose ends at home before retiring for the day @ 2100-2200 to get up @ 0230 to get ready to go back to work. I am not seeking pity by any means; but I am however, I wanting to know why, a, “Christian” man @ his age, isn’t more understanding or considerate of my needs?
Hi Nishki,
I feel compelled to respond to what you shared because it is absolutely wrong. By definition, you are regularly experiencing marital rape and abuse. I found Indiana Coalition Against Sexual Assault’s explanation about marital rape very helpful. They wrote, “Marital rape is the term used to describe sexual acts committed against a wife’s will by the woman’s husband. Stereotypes that it’s a wife’s duty to have sex continue to be reinforced by our culture. Such stereotypes mislead men into believing they should ignore a woman’s protests.” Marital rape is illegal in all 50 states in the US, and it is a crime. While I 100% believe that your husband’s interpretation of the Bible is entirely WRONG, this goes beyond the Bible into a legal issue because what he is doing is a crime. My heart breaks for your situation, please if you are able, reach out to someone for help.
I always thought men are just more in need of it because their hormons are more balanced 🤷🏻♀️
And i think maybe dont get married if you plan on only doing he deed once in a while because sounds like your lust is under control and for some reason paul i thought says stay single if you can……..yes if a women has health issues or a man than clearly a normal spouce wouldnt expect much but the regular healthy person should do their part and enjoy the intimate deed
Really the only way one would not want to is if they dont love their person and thats a whole different story
So what if it goes the opposite way and most times when the wife needs some sexual love the husband claims he’s too tired??
I too am a saved female plagued with a lack of frequency from my saved husband. I know he’s not been unfaithful. I believe (but he denies it so far) the real issue is due to ED.
For months I’ve tried to be patient as I understand the ramifications involved if I’m right. I have good reason to make this assumption. Sex has dwindled to 1-2 times a month and we’re newly married middle agers.
He’s PLEASURED me only 4 (maybe 5) times in the last 90 days. He says he’s had orgasms too, but he has Never been able to “complete” the act. What do you suggest to help?
Hi there! I really think he needs to see a doctor. The other thing is that if you’re newly married and you’re in middle age, he may have a history of masturbation and porn use, which makes sex not “enough” for him. And if so, then he really needs a Celebrate Recovery course or something like that. I know it’s awkward to talk about, but it does need to be addressed. This isn’t okay. If it’s a physical problem, he needs a doctor because it could be a sign of something more serious. And if it’s because of porn or masturbation, then that needs to be dealt with for his own spiritual health, let alone the health of your marriage.
I’m so sorry, and I do hope that you can deal with this well and that God will bring you closer together!
In a word, Viagra.
Generalizations are always missing the mark, but for sure men and women weaponize sex in their marriages. The real issue is Love which is reflected in a attitude of mutual respect and understanding. I’m not talking about ordinary or worldly love, but the love of Christ which is sacrificial in nature. Through His eyes we should read these verses as we work it out together in our relationship. My dear wife has been unable to have intimacy in a sexual way for many, many years…but this has not stopped our love from growing. For me her devoted hubby it has been hard, but then I always remember it is hard for her as well. While it might be impossible for us, with God we find His love never fails. He is faithful and always helps us in our weaknesses, and I wouldn’t trade our relationship for anything.
Tony, my thoughts exactly! Most spouses that are hurt or get frustrated is not because of one night or week of a spouse saying not tonight. It’s the constant rejection and reasonings as to why not tonight or last night or last week last month etc.!
I would also add it’s not just Christian men feeling deprived or as the word that the King James uses defrauded. I have heard more Christian women hurt by lack of sex then I have Christian men.
There is a lot more I can say theologically about the proper exegesis of the 1 Corinthians 7 . And Also point out that Paul was talking to the Corinthians who wanted to know if they should not have sex. So an context anything Paul was saying in chapter 7 was to encourage them to have sex not withhold it.
Corinthians 7:2 (NASB)
2 But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.
Verse 5 )Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
Paul could have gone though the beautiful reason for sex in marriage but he did not, but he pointed out the danger of a sexless marriage and that sex in marriage is in part to keep Christians from sexual immorality. When couples or a spouse are in a constant rejection and refusal of sex they are opening the door for Satan to come in.
About a scenario, where you spend 5 months and wife refuse sex, because she feels like she doesn’t see change in you?
If that’s happening, you likely really need to be seeing a licensed counselor. There’s likely a lot going on, and you may need a third party to help see you through.
My husband and I have been separated for 4 months. One reason he gave was no sex for three years. I am 6 years older than he, we are raising 3 grandsons and I started going through menopause. Every time we tried have sex, I would bleed and cry due to the pain. He was patient and understanding for awhile but decided time was up and moved out of the house. When I asked him about a coworker he has been dating and told him that I know they have had sexy, he quoted 1Corinthians and withholding sex from him was a biblical no-no! I feel that was his choice to make and see this as aldultry.. He sees it differently! Quote ” If I had given him sex just one time out of 3 years, he wouldn’t be going elsewhere. I’m totally blown away by his attitude and know he can turn this into being my fault!! Please clarify what Paul says regarding my situation! I could really use your input!
In my experience mis-matched libido situations are common but often complex. I recommend the excellent book ‘The Sex Starved Marriage’ by Michele Weiner-Davis. Getting the right help early on is critical, and as we have found- there are often a shortage of therapists with the right expertise locally and waiting lists can be long. Whatever therapy costs financially- pay it- and also commit 110% to it. Whatever the emotional and financial costs of treatment will be dwarfed by the consequences of a divorce. It pains me to see so many marriages (Christian and non-Christian) failing due to not getting the right help sooner. Christ’s atoning sacrifice grants us the power to overcome ALL challenges in His power- even a struggling, desperately unhappy marriage. I know too well how it feels to doubt this at dark times but can attest to His supernatural power to heal broken relationships if at least one person is willing to die to self and take the right road- even if obedience leads to short term (or medium term) suffering. Couples need to calmly talk through the issues and find a way forward that leads to a fulfilling secual life for both of them.
I moved out of the house two years ago. My wife was and is experiencing the same conditions described by Deon. Our sex life has been in the toilet for nearly 10 years. We still don’t have traditional sex today. Bump and grind; no penetration. How long is a man supposed to manage. I haven’t cheated and refuse to cheat. Miserable and frustrated!
Not sure where to add this to the long list of comments.
What does a Christian man do when his wife only wants intercourse. She won’t touch me anymore. The first 4 years of our marriage were quite sexually fulfilling for both of us. This new perspective of hers began while I was on a deployment overseas and she’s been this way for the past 10 years. I used to fulfill her needs (or wants) regardless of my own needs until she decided to tell me over and over again “I didn’t ask you to”. We haven’t been sexually intimate for over a year now and I’m apparently supposed to create and maintain an erection so we can only have intercourse. That is an erection killer (all by itself). I buy her flowers. I take her on dates. I spontaneously dance with her. I give her back rubs and massages. I get nothing. My problem with 1st Corithians 7:3 is that the word/term “needs” (NLT) is not defined/clarified. I bring up the interest in foreplay and it’s casted as a want not a need. There doesn’t appear to be a way to win this battle.
Wes, that’s so sad. It sounds like you guys really need to sit down with a counselor and talk this through. Does she get sexual satisfaction from just intercourse, or is she going through the motions so she can tell herself she’s not depriving you? It would be good to find out what changed in your relationship, and how you can rebuild, and talking to a counselor may be a good step.
My wife hasn’t given me any type of intimacy for afew years. She always has an excuse like not feeling good or not in the mood or says I don’t have a switch to just turn on. She also says I don’t like sex. A few years ago I found some indication that my wife is seeing a guy 10 years younger than her on the side. I still love her and still trying make our marriage work. She denies every time she thinks I am accusing her which I haven’t but I do make little comment when watching movies on TV and it makes her mad right away.i want to save my marriage but don’t know what to do. She doesn’t even like talking to me any more, she is always doing something so she will have that for an excuse not to.all my evidence is cercomstancel . But I know, I could go on but won’t right now but I will say it looks like they are planning a wedding in about two more years. Right Now she still lives at home with me and is trying to pay off some of her bills then she is going to retire. We have been married 39 years and don’t know what made her start this. They have been seeing each other a few years now. When I asked whats wrong when she seems upset she tells me nothing it’s all in my head . I am open For suggestions, I want to save my marriage!
Rick, I’m sorry you’re going through this. And adultery is so serious! You do need to treat this properly.
I’d really recommend reading James Dobson’s book Love Must Be Tough. It talks about how to handle a marriage where one person wants to save it, and the other person is actively destroying it (as your wife is). It may really help you. And again, I’m so sorry.
It becomes more and more difficult to move on as we become older. If everything that you state is with certainty, you need to plan accordingly. The first piece of advice I would offer is for you to seek council from a pastor or similar. This should be done by yourself. Usually it’s best to seek counseling as a couple but in your situation it appears that you’re trying to hold on to something that is and has been over. It’s heart breaking when the one we love decide to leave but God may have a different path leading to greater fulfillment. But given that I don’t factually know your situation, I’d suggest finding someone who is able to be objective and scripturally guide you during this difficult time.
My aged wife and I found the solution to her menopause, pain and dryness during lovemaking in hormones compounded to her specific body. Seek out a compounding pharmacy and get started!
– 60s @ 3x/week.
In my case. I become livid because my husband wants me to be open to having sex all the time. If he wants it, it’s fun and I comply. However, if I want sex, and I initiate everything, he’ll say , “no I don’t want to do it, ” and then stress a bunch of cheap excuses as to why he doesn’t want to. It upsets me, then I simply turn around and alienate myself. Then he gets upset and begins touching, the whole thing, but I just don’t comply. It really upsets me. I feel used. I have said it about twice to him where the apostle Paul said, “do not deprive one another,” however I have pointed out, “hmm, I guess it only works one way and not both, cuz if it did, I would be able to get away with it all the time, but now I have to excuse you???”
It’s heart breaking.
I know as a man I have refused my wife twice in our 8 years of marriage. And she has refused me everytime unless she had a few margaritas or plan on having a baby. It’s always been on her time and when she wants to bond. I feel she uses sex as a control and manipulation. She doesn’t go to church with me and she doesn’t trust the bible scriptures because of issues like we are experiencing with 1 Corithians 7. I believe I’m coming off to my wife as a sex addic but it’s only because the constant refusal which is depriving me of feeling physically, emotionally and spiritually connected to my wife. I respect my wife feelings however, like Paul said we should not deprive each other lest Satan will tempt you because Paul already knew as human beings we are weak willed. And now it has come to the sin of lusting in the mind. We began to think of excuses to justify committing adultery or divorce. And all of this stemmed from depriving each other. I refused my wife twice in our relationship because we were having regular sex daily. I was exhausted from it so I could get it up. I’m making no excuses here. But after our first child her libido went to zero. Now 3 years later no change. I blame child birth. Now she only wants to have sex is for having another child or if she feels guilty to for letting me wait a month in a half. Entire to long for me but I will remain faithful because Christ suffered more than this.
You are not wrong it does work both ways. Deprive one another is both ways. I think he has an authority complix. He wants to be the one initiating it all the time. I wish spouse took charge sometimes.
I understand your frustration, I feel the same way. I have the desire and better libido then my husband. I am willing multiple times a day, but we only have it when he wants it. We’ve gone from a few days to months between because of it. After many years of marriage he confessed to a pornography addiction and that because he’d done that before marriage and I was a virgin I couldn’t satisfy him the way porno could. He didn’t mean for it to be a comparison issue, but it’s what his body was used to. He wanted quick and easy, didn’t want to have to “work” to satisfy my needs because most of what he’d seen, the women came quickly so he was angry I didn’t. The difference was, I didn’t know what an orgasm was or how it should feel, and he couldn’t do what was needed to get me there. It was months into our marriage before I ever had my first one. Now, he’s stopped porno, rehabilitation has occurred, he now wants only me, but it’s still not frequently due to E.D. from his use of porn. Dr has given him testosterone shots to help. So hopefully things will improve, but I still feel inadequate sometimes because I’m no porno star. God is helping us through this, I’m praying things even out more because I am tired of being rejected for long periods of time just because he can’t stay hard. I have needs that need to be met to, and I’m willing to help him, shouldn’t he be willing to at least satisfy me since he denied me for sooo long? Guidance please.
I want to thank you for weighting this passage didn’t understand just why my marriage went bad this explained everything simply God wrote it so righy this gentleman’s writing this story and I really appreciate him more than he would ever know thank you very much my name is David O’Pry
My husband and I are both Christians. He is mentally, verbally, psychologically and financially abusive. As a result, I have lost all interest in having sex with him. I normally give in to his requests, because of 1 Corinthians 7. But I
Would be silently crying, knowing that God created sex to be loving intimacy between marriage partners and I had sex with my husband so he wouldn’t get angry with me. Today I told him I couldn’t, because all the other parts of our marriage were broken. He couldn’t believe I would “deny” him, and told me he owns my body, not me. I am strong and secure enough in my faith and Gods word to know that he is using Scripture to his advantage.
God commands you to rejoice — all the time, regardless of what others are doing — that includes letting it show publicly in your actions, expressions, and words. An abuser can’t tolerate that — not being able to make you miserable. He’ll leave because your happiness is unbearable to him. Or else he will repent upon witnessing your godly character. Obedience to God’s word is the answer. You don’t get to control someone else’s choice but you can make something happen through obeying the Lord.
Who’s depriving who? His body including his mouth belongs to you, and he’s using it to abuse you? “come together” doesn’t mean deprive your wife of all intimacy.
This is abuse. I guess this situation will have changed since you posted this. Get your pastor or elders involved to talk to your husband. God never meant for this scripture to be used in anow abusive way.
In my marriage that ended my wife hated flirting, playing, touch and all foreplay. Or just play. As soon as I started showing affection she will get on top & just finish & sleep. This made me feel dirty, used & unloved. I never refused as this act was only monthly and if I refuse I will never see that for another month.
finally ended this marriage as children were old enough & settled as well as completely went against me & accused me.
Here’s digging more than assumptions. My husband and I have sex everyday, and twice a day at least every other day. And often 3 times a day! When I’m on my period, tired, ect.. when I had our babies he would be googling and telling me it’s ok after 4 weeks, we don’t have to wait 6. When I feel like it’s too much this verse is thrown at me, but he also explains to me why he needs it and how he feels when I deny him (like if Im exhausted and fall asleep before it happens) he makes me feel very guilty. The last few days we’ve had arguments about it and that’s why I am reading here… I actually feel abused and I curl up in a ball on my side and let him do it, I’m detached emotionally (not always, but almost always during my period) and this hurts him. I love my husband he’s my best friend but sometimes I want out and think about freedom from this! It’s terrible to feel this way… like I’ll have to start life over on my own and split up my family and lose me best friend or continue to feel over used and abused. I tell him when it’s too often or I’m on my period it hurts me, he will say then why would God say to NEVER deny eachother?
Katie, God does NOT say that you can NEVER deny each other, even in those verses. Also, “deprive” does not mean you have to have sex every single time that you want sex. If a child asks you for food but it’s not dinnertime yet and you say “let’s wait until dinner,” are you depriving him of food? NO! Similarly, saying “we can’t do it now because I am too exhausted, but let’s have sex tomorrow night when the kids are in bed” is not denying your husband–it’s about finding a time that is good for both of you where you can both enjoy it. Even saying “I can’t have sex while I’m on my period because it is incredibly uncomfortable and I find it very violating” isn’t depriving (in fact, God demanded that all of the Israelites NOT have sex with their wives on their periods so he must assume that a woman not wanting to have sex on her period isn’t an unrealistic ask!) God does not ask you to subject yourself to being used or abused sexually, and I am so sorry you are feeling like you have had to.
If your husband is truly your best friend, if you open up and explain how used you have been feeling hopefully he will listen to you and truly understand the pain he has caused. Please read these posts, they may help:
Why We Need a New Definition of Sex
Reader Question: My Husband Wakes me Up for Sex
10 Times You’re Allowed to Say No to Sex
Oh my, I’m having a really hard time not wailing on that guy talking about post-partum waiting to have sex. He is looking out for his own rights, not looking to the restraint placed on him as a husband to sacrificially love his wife as Christ loved the church “and gave Himself up for her”. Nor is he looking to the OT pattern, ordained by God, of waiting a significant length of time post-partum to give a woman’s body time to heal and rest before reentering that physical state of intimacy. This sort of sex-mania infects our church culture in the ugliest of ways, and this is one awful example of it. 🙁
God help him to change his heart and repent.
As you mention, God’s word gives us instruction on how long to wait after a birth (I believe 40 days for male babies and 80 for females) as well as for a woman’s cycle. These should be easy points to come to for mutual agreement. Taking 1 passage of scripture and using it as a hammer without weighing it with related scripture turns it into a weapon we husbands shouldn’t use.
It seems to me that (even in my virginal ignorance) much of this boils down to one question:
“What do you genuinely believe about sexual intimacy?”
If both husband and wife truly see sex the way God does, then they will hold themselves accountable for their attitudes and actions, making it the beautiful act that God intended it to be.
Ah! I agree with Jess. My goodness. A woman’s body is in no position to have sex after giving birth, no way. Some women recover faster than others (I did), but it is so unloving, especially in a situation where doctors often recommend or insist on a wait time, to pull out that verse and pretend like *she* is in the wrong.
It’s because in a lot of Christian circles, sex is never talked about, so a lot of Christians come into a marriage relationship with only partial understandings, not necessarily of mechanics, but of the relationship as a whole (caring, mutuality, etc). People get so obsessed with what the woman “should” do, especially as related to sex, that they forget what the Bible calls men to. In my circle of friends, it is the women who truly feel like they are deeply loved, like their husbands are looking out for their best interests, that most enjoy sex. I don’t think that one produces the other (sacrifical love producing sexual interest or vice versa), but it has been my experience that either both are present or neither are (in both parties, now that I think of it).
It sounds like their marriage has lots of other problems that need to be addressed before their sexual issues even come into play. I strongly believe that women should give of themselves sexually to their husbands, but I think grace comes before law; therefore, the law is being abused in this situation and their hearts need to be fixed first.
Thank you for printing the comment by Kelly. I have often felt very uncomfortable by some of the comments of male readers of this blog. I appreciate her willingness to speak up!
Kelly’s comments have got to be some of the worst I’ve ever read! To say this:
“Yep, some of the comments you read by men on these marriage websites are precisely why Christian women are beginning to advise each other not to risk marrying a Christian man! (I’m not kidding).”
And have Sheila add:
“And I would echo what Kelly said at the beginning of her comment: in conversations with men, I have often found that it is the non-Christian men who are more giving and tolerant of their wives than the Christian men.”
is not to be believed!
To seriously think of disobeying Scripture?
And if you think that Christian women wish to avoid marrying Christian husbands, what do you say to Christian husbands who resent the Christian faith that locks them into sexless marriages? Julie Sibert nailed their pain in her Intimacy in Marriage blog post, Five Dangers of Denying Sex”
“I know what some of you are thinking. ”Well, my husband would never cheat. He would never leave.” That may be true.
But the flip side is he may hate staying.
Though his heart, hands and feet may not wander to other beds, his eyes and thoughts easily could. I hear from husbands all the time who…
…hate the situation they are in.
…hate the desperate loneliness of constant sexual rejection.
…hate feeling trapped by Christian morals they have grown to resent.”
Did you get that last? Christian husbands who hate feeling trapped by Christian morals they have grown to resent.
And Kelly’s answer is to avoid marrying them? Maybe the atheists are right? If Christian single women don’t want to marry Christian men, and Christian men are regretting that they married Christian women, maybe something is wrong with us.
Irene, I think you misunderstood. Nowhere did we say it was RIGHT for Christian women to marry non-Christian men; in fact, if you read this blog you’ll see that I say the exact opposite.
But if you read the comments to the post you will see a dangerous trend in Christian teaching that is WRONG and which can make women very wary.
If the church is teaching something that is wrong and harmful, it is right to speak up.
And one of the things that is wrong and harmful is the idea that women must give sex whenever men want, as if men were animals and women merely recipients and servants. That is not a godly view of marriage.
Now, you’ll know from other posts I’ve written that I absolutely believe that women should pursue a healthy, regular sex life, and that saying no to sex is not something to be condoned. But there is no doubt that there are many men in certain Christian circles who do teach that women are basically to be sexually subservient. You read this in this post.
And if that doesn’t turn women off of Christianity I don’t know what does.
There is no problem with calling a spade a spade and that is what Kelly did, and I thoroughly agree with her.
We should be standing up for truth in Christian marriage, not a perversion of Scripture, which makes one person basically enslaved. And to see a more balanced approach to this, I’d recommend reading my series on what “Do Not Deprive” means.
But there is a dangerous trend in some Christian writing which turns sex solely into something which is women’s obligation and men’s right, rather than something which is supposed to be mutually agreed upon and mutually enjoyed (and still frequent). That isn’t right, and it needs to be spoken out against, because it harms marriage and turns many women away from the faith.
I would also say that there are many dangerous teachings that Christian women follow which can turn men away from the faith; this is not a “woman are right and men are pigs” issue. It is just that this particular trend is dangerous in this particular way, and it needs to be called out.
Amen. And currently there are fewer and fewer men in the church. Why? Because they are succumbing to the world’s attitude of male entitlement. That males are entitled to sex and females are just a sex object. Sex is not a self-sport for males. Sex is an act of love between two spouses. If a woman feels loved – love=respect, caring, sharing, faithfulness, admiration, servitude, connection – than what woman would NOT want to feel even closer through the sharing and melding of bodies during sex. But if take out any the actions of love – then you don’t get a Biblical agape love. Men are called to agape their wives, not just “sex” there wives.
According to people like David French and Mark Gungor will tell you that the reason that there are fewer and fewer men in church is because of the feminization of the church. The modern church has simpering pastors who know how to make women feel good and men guilty. The late Larry Norman said that today’s movies made Jesus look like he’d just had his nails done; that “gentle Jesus, meek and mild” has nothing to say to men. Read David French’s article “Real Men Take the Lead” (google it). Here is a great paragraph from it, explaining masculine alienation from today’s Church:
“The result is a strange form of “female emotional porn” (my wife’s phrase), where the ideal man becomes—in many essential ways—a woman: emotionally available, always eager to talk, never afraid to shed a tear, and ready, willing, and able to shoulder the household workload. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been to Christian conferences or sat through sermons where I’ve been told that “real men” should behave exactly like that, that “real men” have the “courage” to set aside their emotional distance, to approach their wife emotionally and say “no” to their careers.” – David French
And about men feeling “entitled”?
Please read Julie Sibert’s blog post from yesterday, telling about how men want to leave their sexless marriages. Read the painful posts of refused Christian husbands on The Marriage Bed. Men who do love their wives, but whose wives refuse them. I know of one man whose wife’s idea of a great idea for an April Fool’s joke was to pretend to want sex, and when he got into bed, yelled “April Fool’s” and laughed. I’m counseling a man whose wife told him last week, “Honey, your twice a month is using up my libido, let’s cut it down to once a month. Thanks, sweetie.”
“If a woman feels loved …. then what woman would NOT want to feel even closer through the sharing and melding of bodies during sex?” I’m finding out that there are a whole lot who don’t want to. And I’m seeing marriages in danger because of it. One minister I know decided to divorce his wife this week because she hasn’t had sex with him for over 2 years, and recently told him that she didn’t think she wanted to, ever again.
Finally, wives are also to love their husbands. Titus 2:4 tells older women to teach younger women how to love their husbands, “so that the word of God will not be dishonored.” Unfortunately, a sense of entitlement seems to be descending on the women of the Church, saying “I’m not feeling loved like Christ loved the Church. I don’t have to respect him.” There seems to be a lot of the world in the Church, and it’s not gender-specific.
Irene, I think you and Deborah are both right, and I’d just encourage you to echo what Deborah has said.
Here’s the thing: A and B can both be wrong. Do some men feel entitled to sex and say that women can’t refuse them? Yes. I read it in Christian books, and I see it in the comments in this blog. That’s why I wrote this post. It is a real problem.
Do many women refuse sex? Yes. (And, by the way, increasingly many men do, too. It is not just women who withhold sex; in 30% of sexless marriages it is the husband who refuses sex). Is that wrong? Yes. Does the church contribute to this (especially in the case of women refusing sex)? Yes.
So A and B are both problems.
You seem to be saying that we can’t say that A is a problem because B is the real problem. But anything that violates God’s plan for marriage is a problem, and these are BOTH problems.
In the follow up post to this one I dealt with sexless marriages, and I tried to dispel the idea that it’s okay to only have sex when you feel like it (even if that’s rare). I’m trying to deal with BOTH A and B.
But I don’t think it helps anyone to deny that A is also a problem, even if B, in your opinion, is a bigger problem.
I hope that makes sense!
The key, I think, is to call out all false doctrines or all errors that lead people away from marital oneness and point people to the real deal. And men feeling entitled in marriage is definitely a problem, far more in the American church than in the Canadian or European church, in my experience. But it is a problem.
I find it humorous that we generalize that Christian men are like this and christian women are like that. Did either of you sit down prior to Marriage and discuss how each one felt on the subject. I guess not. I guess these types of decisions were to be left up to the demons to figure out how best to destroy your marriage and wreck any blessing your marriage could have been to other couples. So let’s step past the I didn’t think he was like that or she was like this. Does it mean that you still can’t sit down and make an arrangement that could work or is just blaming each other the best you got or even worse proving that God doesn’t save Christian marriages anymore so let’s just divorce. So you didn’t know his or her libido was so high. So what your married talk to each other try to be lenient your spouse wants compassion as well. If you know her libido is lower than yours slow down. No one has ever died from only getting sex once or twice a week. But I suspect the real truth is not rejection of sex it’s the controlling of one another is where the true battle lies. Any Christian person knowing their partner has a higher libido than themselves should initiate sex more often than they think I am just a piece of beef. Just as the Christian who has the higher libido should not seek it as much as they think I’m so sick of being rejected. Talk to each other make a date night where both agree dinner smooching and sex guaranteed this night weekly. With no more than 24 hour rain checks in case of emergencies. Then if the spouse with the higher libido tries other nights sometimes say yes thinking to yourself how much your partner must love you, miss you, need you. Then the other partner knows that if you say no not tonight you will make up for on date night or some other nite. The words do not deprive does not mean obligated. It means duty not in a negative term but rather in a spiritual meaning. To have compassion for your partner that has the higher libido. You married them. So how can you as an individual make this marriage work. Are you not seeking the exact same compassion from them to understand that your libido is not that high. Non Christian complicate the problem with statements like he treats me like a piece of beef. Or she rejects me everyday. Talk about how to come to a compassionate agreement so that the yoke is carried equally. And then pray to God to help you whether you have the high libido or you have no libido. Then non christians will begin to look at how your heart is different and that is when you can introduce them to the one true God. But as long as christians have the same methodology of dealing with issue that non believing people do why do they need God.
If a typical Christian man cares so little about his wife that his response to her regularly not wanting sex isn’t to try and find out why, work with her, or learn what he can do to excite her about it, but to attack, pressure and blame with childish entitlement, it’s no wonder women are afraid to marry them. Men aren’t wild sex-crazed animals incapable of controlling themselves or having empathy, in spite of what pop culture wants us to believe. Continence and self control are virtues all true men are capable of.
Yeah, we’re still working on this one. I really, really wish he’d think about being interested in me around 10:00pm when I still have some energy and a few functioning brain cells. Instead (he’s always been a bit nocturnal), he gets interested in my about the time I get stupid tired. We’ve worked out a bit of a compromise, but it still bugs me a little. With him often going to be later and sleeping later it’s hard to sync up when we’re both feeling good. I want to say that if he loved me or was really interested in me he’d change his schedule (at least some nights), but the truth is that we’re both not great about going to bed early. I just tend to stumble off when I’m so tired I can’t see straight – and that’s kind of a mood killer. It’s not him. It’s us. And I don’t know how to fix it.
We are the same way as you, I get stupid tired around 10 though 😉 What we have done to solve the problem is after the kids go to bed, we have sex, and then get up … there’s no rule you have to go to bed after sex. It’s the way we’ve figured out how to fit it into our schedule and keep each other a priority. Hope that helps 🙂
Why are people waiting to have sex when they go to bed? If we did , my husband and I would never have sex since he falls asleep at 8:30. I am comatose before 10 am, so mornings are out, as well.Best time for us in right before dinner, but then again, we don’t have little kids. Dinner can wait. Be creative people! Your sex life is worth it! (happily married for 27 years)
Because we have little kids. When you have little kids you can’t have sex any time you want to. The only time they aren’t awake and needing our 100% attention is when they are sleeping at night.
I would like to let anonymous know that ,as the mother of three children, your children will be more secure if they can see you love for each other. And no I don’t mean anything inappropriate, but I do mean that it is not wrong to settle your children in a safe activity in order to have some private time with your spouse. Your children will not suffer permanent damage if they have to wait for your time. From personal experience, the most needy and insecure children are the ones whose parents consistantly drop everything instantly to answer thier children. These children are seeking limits, and this includesknowing that even though you love them unreservedly, that they must share your time and they must wait thier turn. Also you will find that husbands appreciate it when a wife gives them first priority, even if they are not asking for it. 😉 Trust me I speak from experience.
You would leave a 2 year old and an 8 month old unattended? Doesn’t seem very safe. A 2 year old can kill an infant w/o having any malice. They don’t know better. As for responding to children and their needs right away as infants and young toddlers, it doesn’t spoil them. It actually gives them security. My children are the best “behaved” children you would ever meet. We went to a restaurant on Sunday and we got “the best behaved children” award (offered by our waitress). My infant very rarely cries. He sits on his own and plays independently because he is secure enough to know that I don’t need to be within 20 feet of him at all times to make sure I will be there for him. I am able to get more around the house done because my children are secure in knowing I will meet their need (which is something that is very important to my husband- a clean home. They are able to focus more on play and learning because they don’t have to focus on advocating for themselves to make sure their needs are being met.
The issues I am having with my husband is that he wants to have control over EVERYTHING, everything down to where I put my keys, how I cut my hair, how I keep the home, how I interact with my children, when/how we have sex–if we have any at all.
I used to be a man who felt frustrated when my wife rejected my advances. Now that i am sincerely trying to love her as Jesus loves His church I can wait until she wants to make love and says so. Then it is actually a much more wonderful experience for both of us. I just wish that occasionally she would let me make the first move. Can you ladies offer any suggestions?
Maybe you could talk to her about what signals she gives off when she’s willing. Maybe she wears a certain thing, or gives you a certain look– something that once identified you could use to gauge how “in the mood” she is. So maybe if you could spot earlier that she wants to make love you could be the first one then to actually make an advance without fearing rejection so much. I hope that makes sense. 🙂
Tired of constant rejection. Makes me feel unloved, disrespected, not like a man for sure. After awhile you just don’t try anymore, and that’s fine with her. Women just have no idea…if they understood the power they have to lift up their spouse – and the power to tear him down to nothing.
I know exactly how you feel. My wife has rejected me for almost a year now. I don’t know how to even approach the situation. At first I thought she was cheating on me but that is not the case. She says sex is the last thing she wants right now and said it for the last 6 months. It has broken me as a man. I used to think I was a really attractive man but now it has dwindled my confidence down to nothing. We don’t even sleep in the same room. It breaks my heart every day. I used to get upset about it but now I just feel numb. I ready to throw in the towel.
I agree with Amber. I have asked my husband to help me get in the mood way before bedtime. I need to get the idea in my head long before my head hits the pillow. Some examples are initiating hugging, kissing (little pecks on the neck), sitting next to me on the couch, holding my hand, etc. Just little cutsy love things throughout the day. Major turn offs…..when he says “I want to touch your butt,” or “when you bend over like that, it gets me horney.” NOT a great idea. Huge turn off. I already know that. You don’t need to tell me.
You do realize that that’s one of his ways of saying he loves you and finds you irresistible, right? You’ll hate it until the day he stops expressing that desire. Then you’ll bitterly wish you hadn’t ridiculed him when he endeavored to communicate his hunger for you, to you. It’s a painful thing to know your husband doesn’t desire you anymore. I hope you never have to experience it. Not every man is a character from a romance novel, or Mr Darcy for that matter. Be greatful that he still “gets horny” when he sees you doing…nothing especially sexy. It means he still sees in you the girl he fell in love with. Many women would kill to know their husbands still felt that way about them. Your statement “I already know that” made me laugh out loud. You are *lucky* that you have that much confidence in your husband’s desire for you! Don’t take it for granted, is my advice. God bless! 😉
You sound like a very wise woman. God has given us our wives as the ONE chosen to express our love to, and to be loved by. When that option is taken away, then what other options are there? Depression, frustration, infidelity, pornography, self-gratification…the list goes on. But none of the results are good options. I guess the only thing to do is pray and know that God is our portion. Sure doesn’t sound very uplifting for a good marriage. It certainly limits us from showing our love and experience being loved the way God designed us to be.
D. You went from one extreme to the other you have empowered her in a negative manner. You need to have the ability to ask if you can make love tonight. Straight forward. While it is admirable for you to wait for her to say that she wants. But if you are now questioning when do I get to make the first move. You will become just as frustrated as her rejections have always been. You need to sit down and work out something better. She and you must feel equally empowered. If she refuses to discuss this then you find two Christians that will help you out. This is not a gang up on her thing. This is done with trying to win your wife back. If that doesn’t work then you find a pastor to help out. You have to find a way to be equals. Carry 2nd Ephesians in your heart. Love one another. Is mentioned first. Husbands love your wives. Wives respect your husbands. Do you honestly think it is respectful when only she can say when. How are you supposed to love her as Jesus loves the church ready to die for her iniquities when she says only when you can. While I know others may disagree but a relationship is about sacrifice one to the other and vice-versa.
Yes it has been used by the CHURCH wrongly and still is! I completely understand and agree that it is not about sex but, about the relationshiP! We do deprive each other of affection, of courtesy, of respect, of love. And I totally have been so against this scripture for years because it makes NO SENSE that my husband can do what he wants , when he wants with my body, none. And the CHURCH still teaches that scripture like that. And I agree, the more my husband pushed for sex or anything, really pushes, like a spoiled child , the more I pull away. I have to freely want to offer myself wit everything I am to him, I can not be taken when he wants. Men need to spend time turning their wives on. Do not come home and expect a romp in the hay at midnight without flirting with her, offering her love, helping her put in the kitchen, what ever her love language is, do it, and the men will have a much better chance at getting some loving! I truly believe men take women for granted once married. They probably think they can “get it” anytime now since the ring is on the finger, and the men stop chasing her, they stop woo-ing her, and I tell you men, that just put out the fire for you. Work for it forever! Women are wired differently , and they need mental and emotional stimulation to have sex.
I totally agrees with Tammi… Husband should woo their wife at first… foreplay is very important… then a wife gives her all and both enjoy making each other happy; once he play with her first; then she will play with him and do what he likes best; afterwards lovemaking will be so beautiful and pleasurable! That is how I would like it.
I severely dislike reading comments like these and seeing how evil and twisted people can act and be. I tried to avoid the “baggage posts” because it’s depressing to read about all the problems people have in the world, although it’s amazing and probably exhausting to be Sheila and try to help so many hurting women and men. My husband and I have and have had our issues but then reading trash comments from men like that make me realize, I have the perfect husband and life. Is that rude to even say that and make other people think their marriages are bad? Or can I offer hope that there are normal, non abusive or manipulative men out there who know what love is? I have noticed that non-Christian men seem more neutral and normal while Christian men seem more good or bad. Blind or insightful. Godly or pretending to be. No one’s really black or white spiritually but it can seem like it. The post-partum wait is based on medical necessity and I have noticed couples are surprisingly uneducated about what that’s about and the dangers to the woman and her health if she is still bleeding and can hemorrhage. On the flip side, if she is feeling like having sex and feeling healthy it’s a clear message from her body she is healed and can engage but if she still feels awful for 2 months afterward her body is not ready and she should not be pressured into sex. Our culture is so messed up. I think most of this is stems from bad parenting and marriages where sons are raised as well as giving in to influences of Satan, pornography, and other indulgent practices that lead men to think it’s okay to get what they want because of some prideful selfish reason that blinds them into believing they are the victim. I can go order a steak whenever I want in our culture, why can’t I order sex from my wife too? We’re married so I’m not evil by thinking I deserve it when I want it. I find a fine line between rape and engaging in sex with someone with no desire to do so. Not that it’s as sinful as rape but that the feelings are dangerous and wrong and should be avoided.
Amen to this ^^^^^. Emotional rape is probably even more devastating then rape by a stranger. This man who is supposed to love you, protect you, lay his life down for you – turns around and demands, begs, whines, tries to “guilt” you to have sex every time HE wants it. Not very Christ-like of him. Only leads to bitterness on the wife’s side.
Interesting thoughts–I’d never heard “deprive” broken down that way, but I tend to agree w/you. I’m glad you’re going to address the other side of the coin tomorrow, though–deprivation when the spouse doesn’t really acknowledge or care that they’re doing it.
Good read! I know we aren’t under the law anymore but we can always look to the old testaments laws as good guides for living. LOL know one ever talks about this but back in the day…even God gave gals a break….a long one. You were unclean after your period AND after chilbirth for a time…I can’t remember 14 days maybe? And it was a no no for a man to have sex with you during that time, God said so so it’s not impossible…I truly feel frequency is at an all time worldly high right now in the times we live as men and women can be kept in a highly…artificial sexual state due to their exposures in the world…and ifI you are using your spouse to cover a lust sin then that isn’t fair really. I won’t name names but there is a prominent pastor that says if you aren’t getting all the sex you want at home…then you simply aren’t treating your spouse in a godly manne! And I believe him! It can be either way….I mean really….if you are being treated like a king or queen and your spouse is totally focused on you and that you have a good time….they’d want to have sex with you almost any time! When love is lavished on you you almost can’t help but return it..wooba wooba wooba!!!
Sheila – I just have to tell you how incredibly thankful I am for you and all the effort you put into writing this blog for the benefit of women like me! Once again you’ve enlightened me and helped me to continue on in this ever-growing journey! Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for shining a light on the truth!
great thoughts!
Hi Sheila!
What an awesome topic to discuss! This is one we have visited frequently in the last 14 years. The closest we came to a mutual understanding was while attending a marriage conference by Pete & Geri Scazzero of the Emotionally Healthy series. We discussed this at length after learning their take on the verses above. For now, I’m at the place that having the right to say, “No” for whatever reason is enough to free me to say yes, most of the time. I had to know I could say no. That made a huge difference for me. Knowing he loved me no matter what. And sleep or really the lack of sleep is our number one reason for not having sex on a given night, so we’ve agreed that if either of us initiates, even if we’re sleepy, we’ll strive to join in, because, when you’re married to a doc and you have young children, you’re always going to be sort of sleepy. So if we always let sleep be the excuse, we’d never have sex. In the end, if we’re emotionally connected and communicating decently, we try our best not to deprive each other. But like every marriage, we have our off days, when one of us is just that tired or not in the mood. In the end, we’ve learned that to stay connected, we have to invest in our bedroom relationship, and there’s a mutual understanding there that has taken us years to get to.
Thanks for posting about this tough issue! Sincerely, Raj
“You were unclean after your period AND after chilbirth for a time…I can’t remember 14 days maybe? And it was a no no for a man to have sex with you during that time, God said so so it’s not impossible…I ”
Only problem with this is what exactly does “unclean” mean – I am pretty sure there are a few different definitions and applications. Because….”If a man lies with a woman so that there is a seminal emission, they shall both bathe in water and be unclean until evening.” – Leviticus 15:18
the act of having sex makes you unclean. There was a lot that made people unclean and a lot of that was only for ceremonial purposes.
The period of abstinence after pregnancy and during the wife’s period is not by mutual agreement so that the couple can devote themselves to prayer. It is being forced on us men because we are being told to give our wives a break.
My very first thought after reading the above: “Someone needs to give this guy an episiotomy, then we’ll see how eager he is for sex.”
The mind boggles. 😉
I concur!! Well said, Mark! 🙂
Hahaha!
Agreed.
I suspect that this attitude shows up elsewhere in the relationship, too. Earlier this year, I was part of a conversation that would fall in the category of the comment Sheila posted about some women advising each other to stay clear of Christian men. (Obviously, I would not do that, but as a single woman, it’s a little frightening to see some of the attitudes that are prevalent in the Christian community.)
One of my guy friends on Facebook had posted twice during the hottest week of this summer that he was craving some baked good or another. I made a joking comment after he said he wanted pie that he might have more success if he waited until the weather was cooler. A pastor who I have met and who is in a church I would consider very similar to mine responded that real love would make the pie anyway. I said that was true but asked whether real love would ask in the first place. The pastor’s response was that yes, real love would ask and that his wife bakes for him at the height of summer all the time. So it’s reasonable to expect that a wife would show her love by baking a pie from scratch in 100 degree weather, but it’s not reasonable to expect a husband to show his love by postponing the request? Don’t get me wrong – if I was married, I’m the type of person who would bake the pie in the heat, but I would rather do it because I knew it would make my husband happy, not because he was demanding it.
And this is someone who’s doing counseling for people who are getting married and/or having marital problems? I was thoroughly shocked by the exchange, and it makes me wonder about the expectations men in Christian circles may secretly have.
Well, here’s the bottom line. HE DID AGREE. He agreed when HE had sex that resulted in pregnancy. No one held him down and forced him to have sex. Being ignorant of medical and health issues is NO excuse. That man is in sin for selfishness and lying, IMHO. It’s comments like this that make women have that “men are pigs” attitude. I wish all brothers would stand up to this man and correct him. And tell him to quit spreading that attitude. As a woman, I don’t want hear that kind of arrogant mysgimy. I want to hear men to stand up and be warriors for Christ. To defend and protect their families. Including their wives.
Bravo, Mark!
Thank you Mark! If I’d seen that comment in the original I’d have gone off on him! It’s not well known that maternal mortality is highest immediately post-partum, usually due to over-exertion!
Yep, some of the comments you read by men on these marriage websites are precisely why Christian women are beginning to advise each other not to risk marrying a Christian man!
I’m glad I didn’t see anything like this til after I got married, otherwise it might have scared me off of marriage totally. Because if marriage is just going to be one long miserable odyssey of sexual frustration, why bother? I had plenty of sexual frustration as a single man, and it cost a lot less money.
Yes, the Bible prescribes monthly and post childbirth times of abstinence, and rightly so. Yes, sometimes the wife (or, a lot less often, the husband) is sick or just too tired. Yes a husband, no less than a wife, should keep himself clean and physically fit, within reason. And although kindness and consideration, by themselves, are in no way a turn on, the lack of them is a quick turn OFF. I stipulate all that….
BUT a very large number of good Christian men, who don’t appear to be lackiing in any of these areas, claim that they get zero or nearly zero sex after they’ve been married around 5 years or so… and no amount of helping with the kids or housework, or rekindling the romance, or improved communication, makes the slightest dent in the problem.
Deep down I suspect that the Manospherian wisdom is true – these women got much hotter sex from much hotter men — promiscuous, uncatchable Alphas — while single, and have thus been rendered permanently unable to “bond” with the average guys, the one who’ll actually marry them. So in order toi have families, they force themselves, they pretend, for the first few years, just long enough to crank out a couple of kids, and then… sorry hubby, the sex show is closed.
I’d love to be proven wrong about this.
Just out of curiosity, what would it take to prove you wrong? I mean, this is a blog where hundreds of women come to learn how to improve their sex lives. Surely they wouldn’t go to the trouble if they were as you describe?
Just out of curiosity, what would it take to prove you wrong?
The consensus of an accumulated lifetime’s worth of listening to other men, would have to change. Eg. I would have to start hearing lots of comments like these, privately in the company of men…
Wow, after my wife became a Christian, she really stepped up our sex life — that’s part of what made me think there was something to the faith!
Those Christian women, they’re the hottest… marry one of those and you’ll never be sorry. They’re taught to be total vixens at church. You have to marry ’em.. but then… watch out!
My first wife wasn’t a believer and our sex life died on the vine after a couple of years. After she left, I married a Christian woman… and the fun never ends…
I’ve never, never, never regretted getting married! If I had to do it all over again, I wish I could have found her 10 years earlier!
My wife grew up in church, and she was taught from early childhood that sex in marriage was a sacred, holy, pure, and totally fun thing to do.
I sinned, I had sex with her before marriage. But after we repented, and got into a Christian marriage, we reactivated our sex life according to God’s law, and it was WAY better.
But that’s not what I hear. FAR FROM IT. Male folklore about marital sex, is mostly about denial and frustration, and marriage is considered a sex-destroying trap rather than a sex-liberating paradise.
Sheila, bless her heart, is trying to change this.
to be even more blunt…
In a society where premarital sex is relatively easy to get, marriage is seen by most men as the beginning of the END of their sex lives. Consistently men report that marriage is a sex-killer.
Christian men say much the same, except that if sex doesn’t begin til after the wedding, there is a brief season, the first couple of years, when he gets a lot. Then…. shutdown.
Imagine the effect that hearing this, over and over and over, has on a single Christian man who is waiting til marriage (as I did). What is he supposed to hink? I’ll tell you what he thinks, having been there:, “I’m so frustrated sexually I can hardly bear it… and yet, most of the married guys say that marriage is a sexual wasteland. Is there NO escape????”
I really don’t believe this is the norm. I don’t think most Christian marriages have sex for a couple of years and then have a shut down. Most of our Christian friends and family who we are close enough with to have some basic ideas about their sex lives are having regular sex, and are flirtatious and affectionate with each other in public. All of the single men at my husband’s workplace regularly tease him about how it isn’t fair that he gets so much more sex than they do. (He doesn’t really talk about it all the openly with them – it’s mostly just guys joking around, but the basis is still in fact.) The thing you wrote above about having premarital sex and then turning our lives around and having much better sex afterward is the truth for us – and my husband would gladly tell you that. It’s part of his testimony. (Well, not specifically the great sex now part as part of his testimony, but you know what I mean.)
I know that there are situations where this isn’t the case. I don’t know what to do to help people in sexless marriages. There obviously isn’t an easy solution (for those of us on the outside of those relationships, I mean).
I’m sorry if you already said this and I missed it – are you currently married?
@ Megan G
If it was not so common, then there would be no gags about her own wedding cake being the biggest killer of a woman’s libido.
The comment from one man in the church I attend (congregation last Sunday 51 of which 18 were men) “As soon as she had the kids, she just shut me out.”
This is a denomination that is developing a resource on cohabitation for its younger members.
To slightly twist the old metaphor, why buy the cow, with its high likelihood of zero production when there is plenty of free milk available?
My thoughts would be that the guy pulled the famous “bait and switch” on his wife. He went out of his way while they were dating. That was man she married. Then when the ring goes on, he became his true selfish self. She didn’t marry that man – and she doesn’t want to have sex with either!!
This is sadly funny, as I am reading many husbands saying that they were “bait ‘n’ switched” by their wives who acted “sexy” and said that they were looking forward to marriage, were very touchy, affectionate, etc., and then got frozen out of the bedroom.
Which is the more common meme in our culture? The husband being frustrated or the wife feeling cheated out of romance? 50/50, right? Or more skewed toward the “Not tonite, dear” jokes, right?
More like they were hit on by hotter men or still hit on. Doesn’t mean those men are truly interested in a relationship or commitment, but comparing a husband to these other hits of interest can be damaging. Especially since a woman only sees an outward glimpse at his most confident. Not all the other flaws behind the scenes.
Do you really believe that? That makes me so sad. You aren’t saying that about all women, right? Just those in sexless marriages?
No, of course I don’t mean ALL women. Only the chronic deniers. However, there are a LOT of them. Otherwise Jeff Foxworthy would not get laughs like this…
if you’re a man and sleeping in a bed that has a dust ruffle on it and seven pillows,
You’re either gay — or you’re married!
if you’ve ever been antique shopping during the big football game,
You’re either gay — or you’re married!
If you can’t remember the last time you had sex with a woman
You’re either gay — or you’re married!
Living in a sin-ravaged world, it’s no surprise that sexual intimacy in most marriages is shoddy (at best). And as much as it scares the daylights out of me (as a fellow single), we have to live with the tough truth that there are zero guarantees that the person we marry (women or men!) one day won’t decide sometime after exchanging vows that sex is history (and refuses to change).
But this doesn’t describe ALL marriages out there, so I’m thankful for those, and I’m thankful for Sheila (and many other marriage bloggers) who are countering the no-sex-in-marriage mindset by standing up and speaking out for intimacy as God designed it to be.
And as much as it scares the daylights out of me (as a fellow single
Point of clarification… I’m not single any more.
And you are right… there are no guarantees. I’ve known people who seemingly married well and it somehow blew up in their faces. Others were happy together…and found out that they couldn’t have kids. Life is a vale of tears.
I’m a chronic denier, and do ya wanna know why? Because my husband likes to criticize, put me down, tell me I am a crappy wife/mom/housekeeper/cook etc, critique me to the point of tears and then thinks that 5 minutes later he can just “get some.” He likes to build me up too- tell me what a wonderful mom/wife/housekeeper etc etc etc I am. He doesn’t understand that he can’t just erase the horrible things he says to me with one compliment and then tell me my “tits look so hot in that shirt” and “let’s do it” and then start humping me while the kids are in the room and there is no possible way I could even potentially reciprocate and fulfill his request. It is demeaning. Maybe men, my man, needs to get a clue!!! Women are not unreasonable, but we do have needs too. Maybe Christian men are terrible lovers void of romance because they think their wives are just going to bow down to their wishes in submission because they managed to get us to say “yes.” My “yes” was not a free pass to walk all over me and crush my spirit.
Your husband has made you bitter. I would find it hard to believe he goes to any kind of church at all. Because it is written for us to love our wives as we would love our own bodies. We as men don’t usually criticize our own bodies. Now women critic all the time but it’s not the same thought process for men. If he is treating you this way. And you love God. He needs some good spiritual counseling.
Megan it makes me sad too, and after having spent some time reading in the “manosphere” I needed to go hug my husband.
I don’t doubt that there are sexless marriages. But surely the fact that so many bloggers are now talking about how important sex is in marriage, and that so many women are buying books like Sheila’s, is evidence that the tide is changing. My husband and I are both thirty, and our sex lives just get better and better.
@ Megan G
Can I suggest that you read the blog passionwithinmarriage.blogspot.;com
Gemma had a 180 degree turnaround after years, as she puts it, sexually abusing her husband.
@ Sheila
I hate to ask people on your blog to read someone else’s, but Gemma’s story is really outstanding in its honesty and its frankness.
Fred
Valid point, Van. I might slightly alter it:
Women stop having sex with their husbands *mainly & usually* because they no longer find their husbands unattractive. He may be sweet, loving, a great dad, excellent provider, ect, but he’s not attractive to her.
Why might he be unattractive? I think it has a lot to do with the fact that our culture basically tells him that if he wants more sex, he should be sweeter, kinder, more affectionate, help out with the kids and with chores, ect. But although that may make the wife emotionally affectionate and attached to him, it won’t make her think he’s hot. She’ll love him like a brother, or a close guy-friend.
How can he be attractive? This is the highly counter-cultural part. He needs to maintain the above listed qualities (because even though they aren’t a turn-on, the absence of those qualities will be a huge turn-off), and add to it:
– physical fitness (especially a reasonable, but not over-the-top, lean muscle mass)
– assertiveness & dominance
– an extremely high level of confidence & competence in whatever he sets his hand to
– sexual instigation (initiate all the freakin’ time)
– a lack frustration/hurt/ect when sexually denied
– a lack of tolerance of unreasonable behavior on the wife’s part (especially if she’s being bossy – a husband who complies with the orders of a bossy wife will shut down her libido as fast as the guy who gains 150 lbs and becomes a video gaming addict)
Basically, women are attracted to dominant alpha males. I’ve *never* witnessed a woman get a crush on a guy who wasn’t the most competent/skilled/knowlegable/whatever at some thing that caught her attention. I met my wife in a situation where I very much stood out as a person of exceptional intelligence (whether or not I’m actually that smart isn’t the point – what matters is that I *appeared* to be the smartest person in the room). Another guy I know just got a date with a girl who was in a church small-group he led (guess who looked like the leading alpha male there?). I’ve never heard of a relationship showing up where the man didn’t catch the woman’s attention initially by looking like the most influential and dominant (dominant is not the same a jerk or controlling) male of the group.
How many times have you heard of a woman going for a man she supervises at work? What about a woman going for her supervisor? A female professor sleeping with a student? A female student sleeping with a male professor?
Marriage can be problematic because our culture tells a man to comply with his wife’s every whim and desire if he wants to be happy (happy wife, happy life, right?). In reality he needs to not comply, but to take charge and leadership of the marriage, and then run the show in a way that puts his wife’s need before his own. But it must remain obviously clear that he is indeed the one running the show.
In this kind of environment, the couple won’t have sex because the dominant husband demands it, but because *the wife will actually want him*.
The transition from sexless-alpha-wife-beta-husband-marriage to lots-o-sex-alpha-husband-submissive-wife-marriage can be difficult. Especially if they’ve been in that state for a long time, but it’s basically the only way out.
I recommend marriedmansexlife.com to acquaint you with this line of thought. I don’t agree with everything this stream of thought teaches. It tends to portray people as more animalistic than I’m theologically comfortable with. Also, it tends to assume your spouse who is denying you sex is cheating on you, or at least is highly prone to cheating on you. It also tends to view the relative sexual attractiveness of each spouse as the primary issue causing a sexless or sex-infrequent marriage, which I generally disagree with.
But it lays out what makes a man attractive to his wife in a way that I feel matches closely to reality, which is where it’s value lies. This line of thought affirms the wife’s right to say “no”. It just lays out a plan for how a husband might change himself so that she won’t want to say “no”.
Don’t buy into the lie that women just have lower sex drives. You and your wife are here because your ancestors had more of a tendency to get frisky more than the other people in their population. Women like sex just as much as men, but only with men that are of a certain type.
Conversations about how badly he needs sex won’t make her want it. Conversations about how intimate they could be won’t make her want it. Conversations about how this is a fantastic way for her to show Christ-like generosity won’t make her want it. An attractive husband – now that would make her want it.
gl- Completely agree! I married my small group leader! I love it when he flashes me some bicep after he goes and lifts, asks me (half jokingly) if I’m aware of how hot my husband is on an almost daily basis, was the top sales guy at work just recently- earning himself a promotion (woo hoo! go him!), and most importantly- he doesn’t put up with ANY nagging and requires that I do my fair share at home while he’s working (I’m a sahm).
I feel good about myself in this relationship. I’m not allowed to slack, he demands my best, and he gives me his best. I pretty much *want* him on a daily basis. I love my man!
Listen, Ide be up for it every night if my husband was game (poor guy has gotta get some sleep sometime though, right?)
I’m not trying to be inappropriate, but I really enjoy sex and making my husband feel good, and I tend to be the more eager one – and I am a female, and I am not some crazed sexaholic. I love my husband and I love knowing He wants me, and I love learning more about each other in intimacy. please do not think that woman go into marriage to “quit” on sex after five years – it’s not accurate. Sex in marriage is adventurous and intimate, exciting and something that gets better and better! God created something awesome!
Hope that proves you wrong, even if only a little (and in a totally respectful way).
Reading this thread makes me sad. Quite frankly GL’s comment seemed the most hopeful to me (it also indirectly addressed a common complaint I see, “She’d rather date an abusive jerk than a nice guy like me”.) My suggestion was a little grimmer… this generation is pretty much lost (?), teach your (generally speaking) children better. I intend to teach my son, and any future children, the proper path, and I intend to use Sheila’s words to do so.
I grew up frigid, in a broken home where the word “sex” was never even spoken, in a frigid church. Up until a couple weeks ago, I had huge (and common) sex problems. And then God led to me Sheila. (♥) My non-Christian husband is mildly suspicious, but since *I’ve* been applying what she’s said, he’s responded, and our marriage has gotten exponentially better. We’re no longer thinking of separating (after only a little over a year of marriage!)
We both made mistakes – me, on the frigid side, he, on the “slightly excessive” side. We’re both correcting now, and we’re much happier for it. And I intend to save our child/ren from making our mistakes.
So maybe, (and maybe not,) it’s too late for this generation. But our sons and daughters… it’s not too late for them.
Wait, I don’t understand what the guy in the first example did wrong. Doesn’t he have the right to request an activity that he enjoys in bed? It sounds like he wanted more foreplay. Why was he wrong to want that and why was she right to refuse him so that she could get what she wanted?
Maybe I didn’t make it clear. I tried to shorten the email to preserve confidentiality. He wanted something INSTEAD of making love–something he enjoyed, but she got no pleasure out of. He would rather have that than make love, so that sex becomes a purely selfish experience.
That’s what I got from it, Sheila. I thought it was pretty clear! 🙂
Was he willing to reciprocate? If so, I call hogwash. Also, it’s sad that she would have gotten “no pleasure out of” it. I get pleasure from being the giver in my relationship, and I know the sentiment is reciprocated. How sad is it that a married man, or woman, would not get pleasure out of pleasuring their spouse? Very sad. Heartbreaking, really. No sex act is void of mutual pleasure if both parties are acting in love, and out of a desire to please their spouse. Saying otherwise reveals a starkly ignorant and cynical understanding of the nature of sex as a sacred communion of love between husband and wife. It’s not just about procreation, though that is a critical spiritual element. It’s also about love. And men (and some women) truly get emotional satisfaction from sexual congress, and pleasuring (when they know/are taught how) -and being pleasured by- their spouses. It’s called making love for a reason, and if it doesn’t feel loving, you’re doing it wrong. No man prefers to have sex with their wife when he knows she doesn’t really enjoy it, and that she derives no joy from joining with him, or pleasuring him! They simply settle for that when it’s all that’s on offer. Romance indeed. My Lord! How unloving, selfish, and ridiculous can you get? Romance isn’t a one way street, hun. It’s hard to be romantic when your spouse is unresponsive, (male or female) when you’re used to being shot down, when sex is just a treat that’s given when you perform properly (ahem…Deborah…) and the treat giver feels you deserve it. If you treat sex like a commodity, don’t be surprised when your husband sees it the same way, and demands his share of the “mutual assets” with the same unfeeling boorishness you’re showing, Debbie. God bless, from the future (2015)! 😉
I guess I wanted to add one more idea into the mix. Intimacy is not the simple act of mutually pleasing sex. I love how my hubby insists that we snuggle even if we don’t have sex when we lay down to sleep. I want to turn over and find my perfect sleeping position, but he wants me to lay on his chest, just to start the night. I think it makes such a difference, and I’m working on being more consistent. On that note, each couple can creatively meet each other’s needs during the monthly cycle and even during or after delivery…you just have to be creative, patient, and willing to enjoy each other in a slightly different way. The intimacy that is acheived by these agreed upon decisions acted out of love help to strengthen the bonds between you and your spouse rather than embitter. Because anything that is not agreed upon just leads to resentment, disappointment, and hurt. God gave us the gift of sex to give to each other. It’s no longer a gift if it’s not freely given.
Okay. I think I’ve said enough! 🙂 -Raj
Well, it’s just fascinating for me to draft my Thursday post today and then come over here and see a related topic. I’d like to think it’s a “great minds” kind of thing. 😉
I agree wholeheartedly, Sheila. All too often, spouses use whatever source they can find, including Bible verses, to selfishly pursue the sexual pleasure they desire. I have also heard too many Christian wives who feel that they cannot ever say no because of this verse, even if to engage in sex at that moment might involve pain. When you have a healthy sexual relationship in marriage, you know what the deprive-each-other verse is about: It’s not about the few times you need to say, “not now, honey, later,” but your whole attitude toward having generous physical intimacy with your spouse.
Fabulous post! (Now I need to go link this one to my post for Thursday. 🙂 )
Great post, Sheila! I really liked your distinction between ‘deprive’ and ‘refuse.’
I think it was one of your posts from earlier this year where you addressed the issue of abstinence during a woman’s period and after childbirth with the idea that GRACE is essential. I’ve tried to carry that idea with me in all of my daily interactions, striving to extend grace to everyone whether it’s my husband, my three-year-old or my high-school students.
Thank you for your posts!
I am appalled by some of the male comments. Where is the Christ like love of one’s wife? We husbands have a heavy but wonderful responsibility, to love our wives as Christ loves His church. That means we have to be selfLESS not selfISH. I am sure that if husbands live and act in this way then more frequent intimacy will occur naturally as wives will feel truly loved and cared for and much more ready and eager to make love.
My husband said that, too, when I told him about this post – I said that in general women need to feel loved in order to feel like making love, and he said that’s probably why a lot of women don’t always want to make love with their husbands.
*Feel* loved? Or *BE* loved? There is a big distinction. I get a little worked up over posts like this, even more or less understanding where Sheila is coming from. The problem is that the starting place here is, “Here are the good reasons according to the bible that you don’t need to have sex with your husband.” A woman disinclined to sex in the first place will stop reading here.
I was a refused husband. I kept my end of the bargain around the house. I worked for a living. She knew that our sex life was a problem. It was up to me to step up in an area so she could feel free. I did. Then I had to step up in another way. I did. Then another…I didn’t. I did what I could to love her. But apparently she didn’t *feel* loved. Even when I was declared “amazing”. etc. Someone always was a better husband. My opinions, particularly on spiritual matters were the suspect ones.
*Feeling* loved ain’t all it’s cracked up to be. Do we always feel loved by God? Do we doubt it though? (one final stab) Husbands are to love their wives, not make them feel loved.
We both brought issues to the table, but we just began to drift apart. I absolutely 100% know for a fact that I withdrew from her, started not sleeping close to her because I know I’d want to touch her but was scared of touching her wrong. I didn’t want her turning on me because I was getting turned on spooning her. I didn’t want to see her anywhere near naked…the list goes on.
AND, this is very common.
There is that, too. I was deprived in my marriage for a few years (he once refused to have sex with me for three months, and throughout those years our average was once every 6-8 weeks), which absolutely killed me because I desperately needed him to touch me. I can’t say that I did everything right, because I’m human, but I definitely tried. He just wasn’t at a place where he could see reality – who I really am or how bad his behavior towards me really was – until he started taking an anti-depressant.
I’m sorry you went through that. 🙁
I realize that someone can be loved – sometimes to a great extent – without feeling loved. I don’t know what would have changed that situation with your wife; and I’m definitely not saying that she was justified to refuse you, no matter what the issue. It sounds like she had some issues of her own that were keeping her from seeing you for who you really are. But generally, in order to be “turned on,” women need to feel loved, whether or not it’s right. However, I hope that most women would be able to recognize when they are loved. Sometimes different love languages make that a hurdle, but in the end there’s only so much a person can do. We can’t change someone else; and often there are issues involved that we have no control over.
Ack, bad situation. I see where you’re coming from, but I do have to say that unless a woman feels loved she’ll feel used.
On the other hand, from what you said, it sounds like that was an excuse being used and you simply couldn’t win. 🙁 I’m so sorry about that.
Skipping back to your comment about it not being a husband’s responsibility to make his wife feel loved… I’d argue yes and no to that. Drawing from personal experience, it does a marriage no favors if a wife, even *knowing* she’s loved, doesn’t *feel* like it. My husband would be hurt when he’d say he loved me and I just couldn’t bring myself to answer; he’d ask “You know that, don’t you?” and all I could do was shrug, or look at/away from him sadly. I supposed I knew it, but I couldn’t believe it. It wasn’t until we both started taking steps to address our problems, that I started *feeling* loved and now intimacy (of all types) comes much more easily. We’ve got a long way to go, but we’re *both* intent on getting there.
If she’s not intent on getting there, all your trying in the world will only be frustrated. I’m sorry, and I’ll be praying for you, brother.
This is so important and right on. I wish I’d realized this early in our marriage. It might have applied more to my husband back then, but now that I’m the higher libido it is a very important reminder for me: “The fact that the preceding verses say that the husband’s body is the wife’s, and the wife’s body is the husband’s, implies that one person cannot and must not force himself or herself onto the other person. And by force I’m not talking about just physical force. There’s emotional blackmail…”
And, “If her husband’s body belongs to her, then she has the ability to also say, “I do not want you using your body sexually right now with me.” If she feels sick, or is really sad, or is exhausted, then her having ownership of his body also means that she can say, “I just can’t right now” without needing to feel guilty–if she is at the same time not depriving him.” In our case right now, just flip the husband and wife.
And thank you for this, “I believe that the admonition “do not deprive each other” refers to the relationship as a whole, not to each individual moment. So if, in the relationship as a whole, you are having regular and frequent sex, then if one of you says, “not tonight”, that is not depriving. That is simply refusing for right now.”
I’m glad the “light bulb” went on for me with this, even if it took 12 years. 🙂
I think a lot of comes down to selfishness. I have found that I am being very selfish and demanding when I’m being pushy about the bedroom. It’s supposed to be “us”–not me, me, me! when I want it, how I want it! Neither he nor I are an On Demand cable channel. It’s the relationship as a whole and considering how each person is.
Thank you, Sheila for the reminder.
I have very regular sex with my husband. He is quite pleased with our sex life. I always encourage my friends to have regular sex with their husbands, whether or not she feels he ‘deserves’ it. I generally take the guys’ side on these issues!
But for a man to have the attitude of, “I don’t care what your body just went through to give birth to my child. I didn’t agree to stop having sex and therefore, you better do it and be happy about it,” is so deeply offensive that I can barely even find words to express myself.
There are about 2 days of the month that I don’t feel up to having sex for reasons related to my period. I freely and enthusiastically participate in sex with my husband the other 30 or so days of the month. My husband is absolutely fine with just cuddling those two days out of every month and never gives me a hard time about it. I honestly don’t give a flip about what some random man on the internet thinks/feels about that arrangement. My husband and I are perfectly happy with it. (And, yes, I know my husband is perfectly happy about it because we regularly talk about it and we’re very open with each other.)
For a man to demand sex is ridiculous and counter-productive. Surely men realize that. (?) I know there are men who are doing all the ‘right’ things and still not getting any sex, but I honestly believe that is the minority, not the norm. If a man feels he is truly loving sacrificially, striving daily to meet his wife’s emotional needs and show love to her in a way that she understands (love languages, etc), and is active in church, leading spiritually, leading his wife in prayer, etc, and still not having sex; it’s probably time to seek counseling – there may be some deep rooted issue that needs to be resolved.
“But for a man to have the attitude of, “I don’t care what your body just went through to give birth to my child. I didn’t agree to stop having sex and therefore, you better do it and be happy about it,” is so deeply offensive that I can barely even find words to express myself.”
That is why it is called a straw-man argument. I think the cases of a man forcing his wife to have sex shortly after child-birth are extremely small in number. This argument was crafted to get an emotional response, rather than something that is a common problem. Besides, such circumstances only occur AFTER CHILDBIRTH, and how many children do a majority of couples have? 2? 3?
So a rare and uncommon circumstance is not the basis upon which to build marital guidlines.
I think this is right on, but I am glad there’s going to be a part two. It ought to always be about the relationship and what is best for both parties, not about one partner claiming “rights” over another. I agree with Raj, knowing that my husband doesn’t want sex unless I am a willing a joyful participant is part of what makes him irresistible. I find it hard to believe that any man would want to have sex with a woman just because she was “obligated.”
This is so true. I have heard many times that it means to give it when he wants it, because if he doesn’t get what he wants from you, he will get it from somewhere. While this may be true in DENYING your spouse, I doubt it is true for the 4 days on your cycle, or the time period after a baby, etc. Our church is looking at a new building, and my husband is fasting. He actually said he wanted us to focus our intimate time together for a couple nights on prayer for our church… I couldn’t have loved him more. When the time was over, I was so moved by our intimate time in prayer over our church, that I was so happy to oblige in his desires several times. I am thankful for a husband who understands the true meaning of this verse, and it makes me want to be a wife that loves him when and how often he needs it to the best of my ability! 🙂
While a cruel, demanding man is ungodly, this post and the comments sound dangerously close to conforming scripture to a woman’s emotions as opposed to a woman conforming her emotions to scripture. Kind of like saying lust in the heart is justification for divorce. Or that if someone is mean to you, it’s okay to be mean back (repaying evil for evil).
Let’s be honest. God takes marriage seriously and demands serious commitment from spouses to each other (e.g. your body no longer belongs to you). Demanding that a woman has the right to not have sex if she doesn’t feel like it, is basically saying it’s okay for her not to be committed to her husband. How many women would be okay if their husbands said that they didn’t feel like talking or doing anything whatsoever with their wives for several days?
Men know that demanding sex is not a turn on. Men definitely prefer a woman be passionate about the sex with him, thus the appeal of porn (which is wrong) where the woman at least acts as if she’s into it. The problem is that most marriages have a spouse not being willing to give sexually to the other (usually women). It’s not just disappointing or hurtful to the other spouse, it’s also a sin. The Bible does support holding others accountable when they sin. A man demanding sex is usually a desperate husband that is also trying to confront a wrong.
You are right – it is a sin, and those husbands are trying to confront a wrong. Oftentimes those hurting husbands are not the ones demanding that episiotomies (or c-sections) can’t possibly be so difficult to recover from. We know a family who is dealing with this right now, and it’s heartbreaking to watch. And I don’t have a solution for men like that other than counseling. (I don’t really believe those women are, generally speaking, here reading right now. I could be wrong, but that is my gut feeling.) In the situation that I’m thinking of, my husband is friends with the husband, but I am not close with the wife. She would not accept advice or encouragement (or a copy of Sheila’s book) from me.
So…I guess that makes the question:
What can we, friends or family or fellow believers, do to help bring about change in these types of situations?
I agree with jsr. It often seems like women say “submit to your husband…. unless he’s being unreasonable.” In most loving marriages, a husband will be understanding and not pressure his wife to have sex if she just had a baby, or if she really doesn’t feel well, etc. Most of the time spouses can come to a reasonable compromise on these issues. But sometimes spouses are unreasonable. In those situations are wives allowed to not submit to their husbands? What if your husband absolutely demands sex? Whether it’s right or wrong for him to demand it, whether he’s being kind, loving and gracious or not, is the wife allowed to disobey him? Does she not have to submit to him because he’s being unreasonable or unloving? The bible doesn’t say “Wives, submit to your husbands…. unless he’s being a jerk and then you don’t have to listen to him.” Hopefully in most cases, both spouses can be reasonable, understanding and loving and will be able to compromise. But let’s face it, that doesn’t always happen. Either way, the bible’s command to wives to submit does not change.
Also, I think a lot of the commenters are being too hard on the guy Sheila quoted who said the period of abstinence after childbirth was being forced on husbands. I don’t think the guy is necessarily this big brute who wants to force his poor little wife to have sex the day after she has a baby. Unless he’s a complete jerk, he probably understands that his wife’s lady parts aren’t going to be feeling so good for a while after having a baby. I think he mostly doesn’t like that husbands are given no say in the matter whatsoever. The wife and her doctor agree together that he ain’t gettin’ any for 6 weeks, case closed, and the poor guy isn’t even allowed an opinion in that aspect of his marriage. Most guys I’m sure would be understanding and give their wives a break for a while after the baby is born, but maybe he would decide that after say 4 or 5 weeks they can resume some gentle love making, or whatever he thinks is right for them. I think the guy’s main complaint is that his wife and her doctor make this decision without any regard to his thoughts, and he feels like his authority in the marriage is completely dishonored.
One more thing. Sheila, your definitions of the words “deprive” and “refuse” are very interesting and I understand what you’re saying. My only concern is that you are defining the English translations of the words in the bible. Could you give us a definition of the original Greek word used in the verse? I’m always a little wary of analyzing the English text of Scripture, since our English translations are not inspired and we may have a different understanding of the word than the original writer did.
I’m definitely not a Greek scholar, but what I learned just from a quick internet search is that the Greek word is apostereó and it means: deprive, keep away from someone, i.e. by defrauding (depriving); to cheat, taking away what rightfully belongs to someone else.
You also forgot about how the wife is commanded to submit and obey her husband…
“And by force I’m not talking about just physical force. There’s emotional blackmail…”
If the woman can refuse Biblical sex, why can’t the man refuse witholding emotionally? Are you saying that a woman is entitled to emotional fulfillment and intimacy no matter what her husband thinks? What if he just doesn’t feel like listening or talking to her?
Yes, I am. It’s called doing the right thing, regardless of what your spouse does.
I think ar10308 is saying that if it’s okay for a wife to refuse sex when she doesn’t feel like it, it must also be okay for a husband to refuse to give affection if he doesn’t feel like it. Sheila, you’re saying that a wife is entitled to affection and the husband should give it to her whether he feels like it or not because it’s the right thing to do. According to this logic, a husband is entitled to sex and his wife should give it to him whether she feels like it or not because it’s the right thing to do.
Mrs. P, I think if you read today’s post that will clear it up. I argued the other side of it today.
” what do you get out of sex..It just doesnt seem like there is much to enjoy in it for a woman?”
“a man can spot a ‘blond’ a mile away”
” I do not want you on my checking account”
“my pastor friend says you dont have enough faith to believe that you are not allergic to milk”
“you should not teach our son the bible..my pastor friend said so…you are not qualified”
“How can it take so long for your episiotomy to heal?”
No wonder I ran into the arms of an unsaved man after my divorce. Not to mention three horrible dating experiences after the divorce that all involved ..you guessed it Christian men!
I am happy to say my second husband has rededicated his life….he was saved as a kid…but very back slidden when we met.
He is not perfect but then neither am I.
One thing we do share is that we both want the other to enjoy the love making experience. To be involved emotionally, not just out of a sense of duty.
These wounds are still there. The tears have since stopped falling down the well worn grooves in the skin. But the scars remain. I have been there, but can point to a Healer! One who understands the pain and can keep you in His embrace! There are second chances at true love. He is the author of it! Humility is key!
all comments made to me , about me, from my ex husband.
Okay, for the gentleman (or men) who think that the six weeks after childbirth isn’t necessary and is just women using it as an excuse to not have sex: Do you know why the six weeks is recommended? Because the woman’s body has just been through a physically traumatic event akin to major surgery. Sometimes it IS major surgery if she’s had a C-section. She has been stretched and ripped and strained and she is IN PAIN. She has open wounds in her body that need to heal, and overdoing it physically or having sex too soon could cause re-injury or infection. THAT is why six weeks is recommended. Imagine having a major injury to your genitals and being in pain while you recover and your wife whining that you’re “depriving” her. Yeah, doesn’t sound fun, does it?
When I had my first baby I got a 2nd degree tear that required stitches, besides the trauma to my body of squeezing out a 9 pound baby for the first time! I could barely SIT for weeks. I could not walk normally for the first several days after giving birth. I was IN PAIN. It took the full six weeks for me to be able to have sex at all! The first time we tried we didn’t get very far because it caused me a lot of physical pain.
Now I’m going to give you husbands some advice: When you’re understanding of that, when you’re tender and loving toward her and wait for her body to be healed and ready, she’s probably going to be a lot more inclined to “help you out” occasionally during that period of time. That does not mean you get to ask every day! She could be just as frustrated as you are, wanting to be intimate but her body is not healed enough yet. Be sensitive to that. It is not her choice to “deprive” you, she is not forcing this on you.
Six weeks is a short time in the grand scheme of things. But it will drag if you look at it all negative. Instead, look for other creative ways to be intimate. Snuggle in bed, massage her shoulders, take a shower together. Or take the baby from her and tell her to take a long, hot shower! There is almost nothing sexier than that!
Just as sex is mutual, periods of deprivation have to be mutual as well. They take mutual understanding, mutual love, and mutual tenderness to get through. You have the rest of your lives to have sex – don’t focus so much on the six weeks.
Okay, getting down off my soapbox now…
Okay, for the gentleman (or men) who think that the six weeks after childbirth isn’t necessary and is just women using it as an excuse to not have sex: Do you know why the six weeks is recommended? Because the woman’s body has just been through a physically traumatic event akin to major surgery
Yes, only the stupidest and most selfish of men fail to realize this. Taking a break from sex, post childbirth or for any other legitimate medical reason, should be uncontroversial.
That’s beside the point though. Most of the time, the chronic denier (usually, but not always, the wife), does NOT have a medical excuse.
This is close to my heart right now because we’re once again in that stage of pregnancy where my interest and availability is limited by constant nausea and exhaustion. There are days when he literally cannot touch my body without me needing to vomit. Naturally this leads to less sex than my husband would wish. My husband actually finds me much more attractive when I’m pregnant. So in some ways, a reduced frequency is more of a sacrifice right now than it might be at other times. It would be unloving for him to demand my acquiescence or submission–a word that has value in most other contexts but has absolutely no place in this one.
My responsibility in this situation is to work out as many times as I can to be available for him and his responsibility is to be patient and generous when I have to refuse. We try to leave communication open so that we are aware of what each others needs are. It is also a season to focus on other ways of caring for each other that can strengthen our bond in other areas. Despite the impression given by some of the other comments, most men also do need intimacy in a number of different ways in addition to sex.
I think that the distinction that this verse involves here is between a spouse recognizing a legitimate and temporary situation where they either put their mutual needs for other things over intercourse or their spouses needs over their own need for intercourse. Neither the verse nor this post are advocating a lifestyle of refusal.
I went to a wedding over this last weekend of a friend who has severe medical issues that will not only curtail their sex life during seasons of illness but also cause her to lose the ability to function physically in many other ways. She is being blessed by a man who is willing to take this as one of the conditions of their life together because he loves her more than he loves himself and is ready to set aside his own needs on her behalf when that is necessary. I know that the cry of her heart is to be a full wife and helpmeet to him in every way–including a regular sex life. Only God will grant them the times when this is possible. It would be beyond cruel for either of them to insist on either refusing when physical intimacy is possible or insisting on it when it is not.
I am one with the bigger libido in our marriage. My husband is genuinely too tired to have sex during the weeknights unless we are trying to conceive. He is travelling 4 hours a day to and from work on the train and works and 8 hour day. I have told him to perhaps go to bed earlier. What else can I do to help us in this situation? Thanks.
Teresa, at the beginning of our marriage, I was the one with the stronger libido, as well. It was difficult. To make matters worse, He’s a morning person and I’m comatose until 10 am. After having kids, our drives evened out. We’ve been married for 27 years and our sex life is still good, but there’s always room for improvement and we keep trying to make it better. My advice is not to wait until you go to bed to have sex. Skip dinner ; ) or have dinner later. If you have kids, arrange for a friend to take them once mid- week at dinner time. I would sit down with your husband and bring up the problem and come up with some solutions together. Use “I” statements and never say “you never” you always”, “you don’t”. For example: “I would love it if we had sex ___ times during the week., how can we make that happen?”
This is not a favorite. As a wife and a woman who denied her husband for almost 7 years, I can honestly say that as wives, we have a responsibility to do whatever we can to quench our husbands’ appetites. We are the only ones with whom our husbands can express themselves in this way and if he’s not asking for something harmful or abusive, there are rarely any excuses good enough to deny him.
A normal, Christian man, with a healthy sexual appetite (ie…often) should be praised not talked down to (ie..Kelly’s response) as a teenage boy. This fuels a little the distrust in Christian women. Even when we don’t “feel like it”, outside of legitimate illness, we are the only way our husbands should be getting this release so why not indulge him often?
My husband doesn’t always feel like going into work to provide for us, yet he does. He doesn’t always feel like helping around the house or with the kids, yet he does. So while I might not always feel like having sex, I do because I’m the only one my husband can get this from.
There should never be post from Christian women, to Christian women that gives any justification to denying our husbands. While I can see the attempt at balance, there is still a little too much cheering for women who are so self-focused that think it’s OK to leave their husbands high and dry in the area of sex.
Women who often are communicated that they aren’t enough are usually the same ones who settle for the bare minimum of the US average (3-4 times a week) and aren’t really present in sex. This of course does not include women who are in marriages with men with porn infested brains.
We should be celebrating our men’s God-given sex drives because they are men…not boys.
Jennifer, I would ask that you read the next two posts, because they provide balance. As I said in this post, I was arguing one side, and then the following day I argued the other side, and then I found the balance.
I believe, though, that everything that I said here was true. Do not deprive is not the same as do not refuse. To insinuate that a wife MUST ALWAYS make love whenever her husband wants to–even if she’s in pain, even if she just had a miscarriage, even if she just lost her mother, does not promote a healthy view of marriage, and is not consistent with the context of this verse, which is about mutuality, not selfishness.
The Bible should never be used as a tool for promoting selfishness, and that is what it often becomes. Jesus’ message was servanthood, not one where we demanded that every desire we had was fulfilled.
Should wives make love to their husbands? Of course, and in this post I argued that there should be a healthy level of sexual activity. But that is not the same as saying that a wife has no right to refuse, which is what I have heard many men say. I think that’s a dangerous message to give to both husbands and wives, and it really needs some balance.
Agree with most of what you said in these articles, however, you’re wrong about one thing, Sheila; Refuse and Deprive are one and the same. A woman not complying with her husband’s sexual needs for medical/physical reasons, such as sickness or just had a baby, IS NOT refusal, but is rather inability. Refusal is being ABLE, but not Willing. A woman could physically have sex and fulfill their husband’s sexual needs, but doesn’t want and therefore won’t do it. Thats refusal, and as deprive means to rob or take something away from another against their will, the two are one and the same the thing.
Tyler–so, just to be clear, you’re saying that if a husband wants sex 3 times a day, and the wife is tired or has other things that have to get done, then she is depriving him?
If the husband’s body belongs to the wife, that implies that she also can say, “I don’t want you doing that with your body right now.” I think it’s incumbent on both to find a healthy balance where there’s give and take on both sides. You’re describing a situation where ONLY the wife has give. That’s never right.
No, thats not what I’m saying. I’m saying if there is nothing else getting in the way and nothing keeping her from doing it, such as being tired or having other things to do, then it would be a sin for her to refuse him. Thats why I included having a baby or being sick in my comment, to imply that with exceptions like those or anything else preventing sex it would be wrong for her to refuse since she technically could do it, but won’t. If she is too tired, sick, or anything that would keep her from being able to have sex, then its called inability, not refusal. If a husband wants sex three times a day, but she doesn’t have the energy to do it, then not having sex three times a day with him is not refusing/depriving him. Shes unable to do it. She should do it as she is able, such as one time if she has the energy and time, though Understand? I didn’t mean you were wrong in your suggestions. I agree completely with them. But the way you seem to think of what refusing means was not correct as true refusing is the same thing as depriving since nothing is getting in the way or wrong, and yet she still won’t comply. I used the “she” thing just to generalize since that is most often, but not always, the case that the man is the one with the higher sex drive. All this I’ve said can also apply the other way around as well. I hope this clears up any confusion.
Completely agree with the sentiments expressed I this post. Thanks for helping me consider “deprive” vs “refuse”. Good distinction.
The part that really gnaws at me is the comment from reader Kelly. Even in my agreement with her points about what women expect, it is hard to get beyond the arrogance. To qualify anything as “blindingly obvious” is both to misunderstand the power of sin to obscure the obvious from all of us and to imply that she doesn’t miss any blindingly obvious sexual cues herself. Unlikely.
The goal in marriage is to be in unison. This is done by prayer & praise of our Lord as a couple. We can not treat our spouse the way the world says and get godly results. Pray that God would restore purity to the sexual desires and anything else troubling your marriage. God wants His daughters to be cherished.
“God wants His daughters to be cherished.” And His sons? What about His sons? Are they to be cherished, as well, or are they just there to do the cherishing?
My husband told me last night (after I asked what was going on) that the reason we almost never have sex is because he is too tired at night, he doesn’t like the way I cut my hair, and we fight too much. (we have been going to marriage counseling for some time). I asked him what he does when we don’t have sex. He said he relieves himself in the shower. Is he depriving me? Or because we aren’t getting along this is ok? Is masturbating in the shower instead of doing that with me ok? I asked him if I was supposed to do that too then, and he didn’t respond.
Yes, that is depriving you, and it is wrong. When we are married, all our sexual energy is to be directed towards our spouse. If he is relieving himself on his own, he’s also allowing himself to not work on your problems together that made him not want to have sex in the first place. Let’s say he didn’t masturbate. What then? He’d have to have sex with you, which would mean that he’d have to feel closer to you, he’d have to work at communicating, and he’d have to work through your issues. Instead, he’s taking the easy way out.
I’m sorry if I’m sounding harsh, but I’m quite passionate about this. God gave us our drives partly so that we would have to work on communicating and growing closer together and forgiving and all those good things that make us look more and more like Christ. If we take care of our sexual release ourselves, then we get rid of all the need to work on these things. And I think that’s just plain wrong. You might enjoy the third post in this series most where I talk about some of this.
And when she tells you (the first week you are married, after consummation, and it is too late to escape) “I’m NOT interested, if you don’t like it, TOUGH, you are married now. Sucker! Take care of it yourself!”
Before it was “If we were married, we could be having sex all the time.”
35 years now of this “wedded bliss”.
I’m so sorry. That was not how it was supposed to be. Have you gone to counselling? Insisted that you talk about this more? Told her that this isn’t okay, and that she deserves more than this and she’s depriving HERSELF?
Tell him that you’ve got the right of first refusal. If he’s not going to give you a chance, he doesn’t get to whack off in the shower, as he’s stealing from you.
Is it depriving if you’re the lower drive spouse, but yet your communication with your spouse is so awful that the word sex itself is never really used? Is it depriving if your spouse never comes out and asks for sex or uses words (ie: I’d really love to be with you tonight), but rather just grabs your boobs silently?? I am soooo tired of being the spouse who uses words and does not beat around the bush, that I’ve tired of planning sex, tired of planning dates, tired of planning everything so I just don’t do it anymore.
That’s a tough one. It sounds like your issue really isn’t sex but is instead communication. And how do you fix communication in your marriage? Really quickly, find things to do together. Just spend time together, low stress. Go for walks. Take up hiking. Start a sport. Start a hobby. If he likes to go to hockey games, go to hockey games with him. Just spend time together so you can laugh together.
Then you can start talking about things more. Read a book on communication together. Make small little changes in how you talk to him, so that you are sure that you’re honoring and respecting him, but then also say, “I feel like we’re distant, and I don’t want to feel that way. What’s something that I can do to bridge the gap?” “Now, can I ask you to do one thing for me? Can you…” Try to start with small changes. And always ask what changes you can make as well.
Many men find communication so much easier when they also feel that their wives desire them. I know that’s hard if you feel unloved and distant, but if you can jump in, while also doing these other things and trying to work on communication, that can definitely help.
I am sorry, though. I know it’s lonely. But he’s probably lonely, too, and the only way forward is to do what is in your power to do.
Wow. Having been married for nearly 3 decades I find the comments of some of the men’s comments to be extremely selfish. I shudder to think what would happen should the wife become ill, such as in our case. I have always loved sex and had the higher sex drive for many years and that all fell away as I neared menopause. Nearly every time we had sex, I got a urinary tract infection. Anyone who has had a UTI knows how painful they are. They pretty much put me out of commission for a week. Hard to enjoy sex when you know it’s going to mean a trip to the urgent care. Had horrible menopausal symptoms that made sex painful and had no desire at all. I thank God my husband is a loving, patient and caring man because this went on for at least 3 years. I finally decided to get on bio-identical hormones because I wasn’t willing to give up our sex life at 50 years old. We are now back to having a good sex life.
When it is looked at in the context of the verse that comes before it, “The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife.” I think it is saying don’t refuse. I think the many commentators that says this means don’t refuse are looking at it in context instead of just picking the one word out and looking for a meaning that suits them.
The Greek on that word ‘deprive’ is defraud.
Defraud.
I’m off to defraud. But seriously..
The logic above is feminism. It certainly isn’t sound. If you can massage this chapter of the Bible, I can massage the rest of it therefore.
Speaking so personally, I have sex about four times a year. With my wife of many years.
There is patent, demonstrable, scientifically observed data that the male biology for the need for sexual expression far exceeds the female biology for sex. (Any studies to the contrary perhaps may have the Kardashians as sponsors). The point here is merely practical: God said it is better to rid yourself of an offence than to enter Hell. If you have a large libido, you may choose to be single, and therefore a fornicator if/when you slip up. If married with a depriving spouse based on above logic, you will be an adulterer IF you slip up. I’m still afloat. Pray for me please.
Fornicator.
Adulterer.
Choices.
Don’t marry. Unfortunately I’m addressing a majority of men. Zero sum game, obviously. Go with the lesser penalty because, unfortunately, since the 60s and the white feather brigade, you will lose.
A touchy subject indeed. Never preached on in the pulpit. But it ruins more lives than you can count.
Woe indeed…
Peace, God bless.
Rex, like I said, I’m arguing one side today, and the other side tomorrow, then coming to a rest in the middle. I’d advise you to follow the links!
Thanks Sheila, I’ll watch with interest.
And thanks for the advice.
God bless.
And the articles are already up! Should have said that. Sorry! Here’s day 2, and here’s day 3.
I run a Christian men’s group. We have guys in there whose wives will only have sex 2 or 3 times a YEAR. This is a real problem and these guys do turn to masturbation and pornography which is not right either. They’ve shown this verse to their wives, but it has only sparked resentful fights. When a woman constantly turns down her husband for months and months, then it would be hard to argue that her husband is being selfish. My friends are trying to be better husbands, they’re wanting a better marriage, but this whole issue is causing resentment and it’s not a good thing.
I am in the four times a year group. There are 3 topics avoided like the plague in my non denom church: marriage divorce remarriage, the headcovering, and 1 Corinth 7.
I’m bothered less and less by hubris, 40 years is enough.
paul was writing as a unmarried Jewish man. He, if he was devout, would know very very little about menstruation and childbirth.
He would also know he did not need to mention these times, as devout Jews consider a woman “ritually unclean” and are not to be sexually intimate with her during such times. Paul would not have had to talk to his audience about that – they already knew that
Nobody is talking about the “agreement” or “by mutual consent” part of the passage? What does this mean? How do mature Christians agree to being apart? and does the being apart just mean “no sex”? Is masturbation a sin–Onanism is not considered masturbation, apart from thinking lustful or adulterous thoughts can masturbation be an answer to “being apart” when the spouse agrees “by mutual consent” its okay to do? What is the default rule if God only condems adultery or fornication. If your thoughts are for your spouse when masturbating is this sinful? Especially when your spouse says “no” to sex but yes to allowing masturbation? Any thoughts on this “agreement” clause in the passage? How far can you take the agreement for a time–just “no sex” or is St Paul opening another door for the married couple to “consent” to?
I understand many cry out (perhaps involuntarily) “oh God” when having sex, but do they really invite the Holy Spirit into having sex along with them? We know God sees all things, and He invented sex and sexual intercourse. Yes; he sees us having sexual intercourse. Yet so many involuntarily cry out his name “OH GOD” as they are performing the act–is this the human sub-conscious proof of the amazing God’s reality, and then the effects of the created spousal relationship of Genesis? (ironic word roots of Genesis: Genetics: Gender (sex) weird isn’t it?) Thus the part of the passage where St Paul says “devote yourselves to prayer” should you not be praying to God also while having sexual (gender) intercourse? Maybe sexually praying together would reduce the relational marital issues you’re having with your spouse? Maybe it would allow God to heal you while communing together through sexual intercourse? How many pray while having sex with their spouse? So with God all things are possible!
Wow. SO much negativity about this topic. Being a Holy ghost filled woman married to a holy ghost filled man 25 years I can say our issues, experiences, lack of teachings, lack of knowledge and flesh makes sexual relations difficult even in marriages. I would be lying to say that previous sexual relations BEFORE marriage and being saved did NOT help . BUT, I have known people to stay virgins until marriage and they did not have it any easier than the people who are sexually active before marriage. It all boils down to teaching and being open minded. SEX is not about strictly missionary position and procreation. And it is not about total lasciviousness . There were too many times I with held from my husband because I was being used for sex NOT because he was loving me and he had come to acknowledge that and we both have been healed of that BUT wisdom and understanding your spouse and being willing to sacrifice for a time because of situations is REALITY. Also, ladies, when you have experienced a sexual attack in the past, it is never wise to hide it from your spouse. It affects your sex life, intimacy and how you view men and deal with issues of life. First- GET HELP. Second-move towards healing in every single aspect. GOD is a great GOD and can do all things to deliver us.
Hey there! I am enjoying these posts but I have a couple questions I would like you to elaborate on if possible. What if the situation is based on physical pain during intercourse that causes one spouse to ‘deprive’ the other? For instance, after childbirth my lady bits are not healing anywhere near as quickly as the average, sex is not even a consideration for me. On another note, (you touched on this but didnt go into detail enough for my question to be answered) what if the issue is of oral sex? For instance, my husband would rather recieve oral sex six of seven days a week. If he’s sweet and snuggly its with an expectation for that (and thats been since we got married, completely unrelated to pain preventing vaginal sex). Furthermore, what if the reason for ‘depriving’ a person of any kind sex is emotional abuse that triggers panic during such situations? How would God address those questions or how would He want it explained to both parties so they could gain mutual understandings. Thank you!
I can answer your question about the sex after giving birth; the bible says its not to be until either forty(for a boy) or eighty(for a girl) days after the child is born. You not being able to have sex due to your “lady bits” not healing as quickly fits into that and the exception of inability. You’re not physically capable of having sex, and therefore it wouldn’t be wrong to decline doing so if either you or your spouse want to. Only if you(or your husband) were able, but not willing, to have sex would it be a sin to decline your husband or for him to decline you. As to the emotional abuse, whether it be on your part or your husbands, I’d advise you pray to God about it and seek his guidance(preferably with your husband), and then follow through with whatever you feel lead to do(being cautious through prayer to be sure its God’s will, of course). I’d also recommend counseling and getting any necessary psychological(if thats the correct term, not sure) help to help you and your husband to overcome this problem. Praying for you and hoping for the best for you and your husband.
I know that this is an old post, but after studying this passage (and others that are related) extensively, I think you are right in many of the conclusions you have here about the spouse not being able to demand sex (any time and as much as one spouse wants), but maybe for the wrong reason as I don’t think 1Co 7:3-5 by itself says what you are saying here. No Scripture exist totally separate from the rest of Scripture and 1Pe 3:7 probably does teach what you are saying that there are some times when saying “no” is acceptable or that at least the husband needs to accept that now is not the time. I doubt if 1Pe 3:7 is a popular text for women, but it says:
1Pe 3:7 ESV Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.
The words “understanding way” comes from the Greek word “gnosis” and it means “knowledge signifies in general intelligence, understanding” (Thayer’s Greek Lexicon). The Expositor’s Bible Commentary (abridged) says of this verse ‘“as you live with” probably refers to sexual intercourse in addition to the broader aspects of living together.’ John MacArthur says of this verse “Submission is the responsibility of a Christian husband as well (cf. Eph 5:21)… a believing husband must submit to the loving duty of being sensitive to the needs, fears, and feelings of his wife. In other words, a Christian husband needs to subordinate his needs to hers, whether she is a Christian or not.”
I don’t offer these commentaries as if they are always right (as every commentary I have will occasionally disagree with one or more of the others), but to show that this interpretation is fairly normal within conservative commentaries.
So, yes Scripture does teach what you are saying. However, 1Co 7:3-5 says:
1Co 7:3-5 ESV The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. (4) For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. (5) Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
I think that in your explanation, you have given the word “deprive” the meaning of “taking away a need” although you don’t actually define it. The word “deprive” actually means “remove, to take something away from, to remove from office, to withhold something from.” (Merriam Webster’s definition) “Something” doesn’t imply that there was a need. “Deny” means “to restrain from gratification of desires” (MW again). To use the word “deny” would mean that the spouse was prevented from gratification with anyone, but since the Bible allows sexual gratification only between the two married people it would really have the same sense. The Greek word that is translated as “deprive” is “apostereo” which means “to defraud, rob, despoil” (Thayer’s Greek Lexicon) also doesn’t have that sense of taking away a need, but rather withholding something that is rightfully theirs. In James 5:4, the same word is translated “kept back by fraud” (ESV) and refers to the wages of the laborers who mowed the field. They deserved their wages – or it was their right to be paid. If you put “rob” in 1Co 7:5 instead of “deprive” you see the sense from verse 3 that it is a “right” and then in verse 4 the spouse has authority over the other’s body as a result of that “right”. It then goes along with the sense of robbing the person of that “right.” Some might ask “is it really saying it is a right?” The NIV translates it as “marital duty”, but the Greek word is “opheile” and means “that which is owed, a debt, metaphorically dues: specifically of conjugal duty” (Thayer’s Greek Lexicon). So, basically it is the spouses “duty” or a “right” depending on your point of view. The sense is that the spouse has this “right” which the other spouse robs them of. This doesn’t set well with us at all in a modern world, but that is what the text says. Now having said that, we need to reconsider 1Pe 3:7, but also consider that the Bible specifically says that Christian leadership isn’t supposed to be authoritarian in anything (see Luke 22:25-27, or Matthew 20:25-28, or Mark 10:41-45). So, we can’t thump our Bible on 1Co 7:5 in front of our spouse expecting that the spouse submit to this passage and still honor the command to live in an understanding way in 1Pe 3:7 and the command to not be authoritarian in Luke 22:25-27.
Also, if you look at the context (both historical and the greater section of text) you come to the conclusion that some well-intentioned Christian spouses were practicing celibacy within the marriage as an overreaction to all the sexual sin in the world that was outside of marriage (just read 1Co 5 and 6). The Expositor’s Bible Commentary says of 1Co 7:5 that “The present tense of the verb ‘deprive’ in the prohibition in v. 5 indicates that some were practicing a kind of celibacy within marriage. This sentence may be translated, ‘Stop depriving one another.’” Many commentaries that I looked at mentioned something along this line (you could also look at the Bible Knowledge Commentary or the Believer’s Bible Commentary). The context does give us the sense that we aren’t talking about getting all we want, but more like any at all, which is probably why it wasn’t translated as “rob”. (I do recognize that this is exactly the issue that many spouses are dealing with – total sexual deprivation, but isn’t the focus of your post) Therefore, when we read “do not deprive” we should read it as not really addressing “Should I get sex anytime the mood hits me?”
Having said that, you have to wonder if a husband that might have a normal libido and his wife is accepting sex maybe once or twice a month isn’t left open to Satan’s attack. Also, the word translated “again” in “then come together again” is “palin” which means “anew, again, renewal or repetition of the action” (Thayer’s Lexicon) so it means something that is repeated and regular, but that fits more into your next post than this one.
So, from the historical context as well as related versus we learn that a spouse shouldn’t demand sex or expect it every time, but that understanding isn’t from the difference between the words “refuse” and “deprive”.
I read through lots of the comments above and I think many people have made some good contributions to the overall understanding. One person mentioned that the Law required a wife to abstain for seven days for their cycle (Lev 18:19) and a month or two if she gives birth (Lev 12:2-6). I don’t think we are under the law today, but I don’t pretend to understand all the reasons why God made that Law and so when I understand Christian women think that is a really good idea (and my wife is included here) and that most Doctors agree then maybe that is one of the reasons He made that Law in the first place.
I have been reading your recent book (9 Thoughts) and your blog for awhile and you know your Bible. The thought has occurred to me that you may know the meaning of the Greek words behind the translations and might know the various commentaries and I’m sure you understand women better than I do (but I am trying). Perhaps you have hit upon a way of explaining it so that people can understand it without getting really technical and after all I have agreed that you are right in your conclusion even if maybe for the wrong reason. People often need a non technical explanation and you may have given it. If so, then I apologize for giving a technical response. Your writing has been a really interesting read and it has caused me to really look at these Scriptures again. Thank you.
My wife and I have been separated for over a year, and although she says that she wants this to work, we haven’t moved forward at all in our relationship. She is claiming that God has told her to do this but I’m just having a hard time understanding why God would want us to be separated this long without making any progress, or even at all. I’m not wanting us to work just because of sex, but this verse does raise a lot of questions for me if what is going on between us is biblical. what are your thoughts on this?
Hi Daniel, I’m sorry but I just can’t comment because I don’t know the full story or the reasons for the separation or what’s happening. I would recommend that you both go and see a qualified Christian counselor. I think it helps so much to have a third party help you move through and work through problems. But I’m sorry that I can’t tell you what to do without more information!
Well I got an even better one. My wife hates sex PERIOD…. She says we already have 3 children and it should not be a big deal anymore. I’m 54 she is 45 and we have been married for 18 years. We have not had sex in over a year because she always come up with and excuse or turns me off by making some comment like OK lets just get it over with. So then I don’t even want it anymore. We are Christians and she says I should respect how she feels about sex. We see a marriage counselor now and I feel she is pushing me away. Yes it’s the woman’s body, Yes she can say NO. But you will lose your marriage Christian or not when you say NEVER. When we first got married she baited me. Now that the ring is on the finger. The children growing up. The real her is beginning to come through.
I’m so sorry, John, and if you read the next post in the series I show how withholding sex is never right. I’m sorry that you’re walking through this, and I hope that you get a counselor who understands the importance of intimacy.
Get out and live the life you feel you deserve.
Where does it say that men are allowed to deprive their wife of sex?
Any spouse in a marriage that is not being given intimacy period should not feel guilt if they seek it outside. A marriage is not about sharing bills, and the child or children they have together, the three meals in a day or the roof over their heads.
Anyone who judges a spouse in that kind of situation have never walked in their shoes.
Marriage is not a platonic friendship based relationship. If you can not perform all the expectations in a marriage, don’t expect fidelity, don’t expect loyalty, don’t expect happiness.
I can almost agree with Catherine… Im a Christian wife… married to an unbeliever. Due to a chronic illness; my husband and I have not been intimate for years!!! For me it was very hard to handle because I love making love… I was not prepared for this kind of life where Im stuck in a loveless marriages; even though my husband says he loves me’ I dont feel loved because he does not desire me anymore the way he should in our marriage… I feel for him as its not his fault if he is not interested anymore due to this illness…it leaves him totally cold. He tells me he loves me; hug me sometimes and hold my hand in bed or put his arm around me; but this is not enough for me… I wants more!!! Im a very passionate women and wants to feel loved; desired and good. Im 57 years old and still look young because i look after myself;this is very hard for me; most people think Im in my early 40’s and I can see that other men desire me; the way they look at me in pucblic places… that is how I would like my husband to desire me… sometime my need is so great that I sometimes wish i had someone in my life to see to that need… that is why a lot of Christian women masturbate because their husband deprive them of lovemaking… if a husband is unable to do that; there are other ways to stimulate their wifes and making them happy by touching etc. This is so hard for me as I still want to make love… are there other women out there that feels like me? This is so hard to deal with if you a Christian wife; suffering in silence due to the lack of intimacy… unhappy inside even though smiling with other people… feeling sooooo lonely and wanting to be intimate with her husband… for me this is really suffering in silence… you cant talk to people about this; its so embarrassing! Its hurting so much… still you remain in the marriage because your husband is a good man and cant help it because he cant make love because of this illness. Any advice for me? Are there other women out there that feels like me; who are so lonely and hurting the way i do?
I am in the exact opposite side of the conversation. A wife who has no desire for sex/intimacy. Struggling to survive!
My wife hasn’t told me she loves me in 10 months. She wont make love to me but once evey 3 months if even that. What are you supposed to do when your married desperate and lonely? My wife is beautiful and its like putting a steak infront of a starving person, just out of reach. Its terrible. I hurt so bad. But men are pigs and they’ve just oppressed women for so long…. I don’t buy any of it anymore. I used to be sympathetic about those things, but now after a decade of this…. no and its really been the last couple of months that has brought me to that point.
The problem with the bible is people wish to express their opinions, which are not written in the bible. They read versus and add their definitions or adding words to describe meaning that simply is not there. Corinthians 7 is straight forward, you give up your authority of your body. Do not refuse each others, but it seems everyone wishes to add their own disclaimers. It is simple you either believe in the bible and follow it or don’t. At the end you are not the one who judges your actions, God is. People use words like it is used as a weapon, when in fact there should be no weapon if you believe in the bible follow it. A weapon is only used when someone is not following what they are suppose to believe in and that is a sin. Unfortunately religion is full of hypocrites who wish to find ways around things they do not wish to follow. There is no weapon, it is simple saying no is a sin, read it, there is no disclaimers I am sorry.
Hank, I have to admit that this opinion that you share truly saddens me. It has been used to hurt so many people in the church. Because the truth is–we ALL interpret the Bible. We may claim we’re “just doing what the Bible says”, but we’re ALL picking and choosing. Even Jesus didn’t “just do what the Bible says”! The Bible said to stone an adulteress; those were the plain words. Jesus’ approach was to look at the spirit behind them. Why were they written? When you look at one verse and don’t ask, “how does this fit in to the bigger picture of Scripture?”, you’re seriously in danger of going way off base. And that’s how people have been told to stay in abusive situations; cut off for having true emotional needs; called weak and unchristian for still having temptations.
If you are so sure that you should just do what the Bible says clearly, and never ever interpret anything beyond that, then do you think Laura Ingalls was wrong to wear braided hair–because Paul says she was. Do you think that husbands and wives are wrong to wear gold wedding bands–because apparently we’re not supposed to wear gold jewelry. Of course not, because we look at the meaning behind the words.
And the meaning in this passage is obviously about complete mutuality. Sex is for two people; it is not for one person to use another. If you look at the rest of this series (and I have included links) I talk about how this means that we need to be giving sexually to each other wholeheartedly, and not aiming for the minimum. But it also means that sex should not be something that is demanded or forced upon someone either physically or through emotional manipulation. That, I believe, is totally in line with everything that Jesus taught and with the Spirit of Scripture.
My wife has refused to have sex with me for over 8 months. While I admit I am not the model husband, I do love the Lord, love being active in Bible Study, the Choir, and have held the same job for 27 years. I take care of all of the outside of the house, sweep and mop the floors, vacuum, dust, clean the frig. and wipe toilets. When we first met, over 23 years ago, she showed interest in the choir, but after her first pregnancy (we now have a 19yr old and a 16 yr old) she stopped going to choir, and only went to church on Sunday’s. She does not work full time (school bus driver), and when she’s not working, she’ll wash clothes and Facebook, while watching game shows, soap operas, and Maury Povich, then eventually falls asleep w/ the remote and her phone in her hands. She has gained over 50lbs., even so, I still feel like I need sex, and know masterbation is not the answer.
I’m praying and have some peace with God, but I need help to turn things around in our marriage. It’s getting to the point that I’m afraid to open my mouth, w/o getting shot down by my wife.
I do not believe in divorce.
So glad to read this article influenced by God’s breath! I have also felt that many men use this as a reason for every situation, even when the husband is unfaithful by watching porn or cheating. I cannot imagine feeling trapped in your own marriage when your husband is unfaithful but yet you are “suppose to” have sexual relations which is the impression I’ve been given.
Of course unfaithfulness is another tricky topic and for the marriage to heal, sex would need to be somewhere down the road, but in times where emotional needs are not met and the woman (often) needs to heal in those ways before there’s physical needs met. The God of the bible I know would never want a spouse taken advantage of in this way. Sex is a mutual gift, not one to be selfish with. You worded everything nicely 🙂
I think this is a cowardly and hypocritical take in the man who thinks women have to sex in life threatening or painful situations.
I supposed a period really isn’t that big a deal unless his wife is one of those unlucky women with excruciatingly painful periods, but recovering from child birth it. Apply friction to an open wound that leads to an internal organ is going to be excruciatingly painful and lead to more bleeding and a high rick for a life threatening systemic infections. A man who is willing to put his wife in extreme pain, seriously injure her, make her deathly ill or kill her isn’t being loving or serving her or loving her like Christ loved the Church in any way. Yeah yeah I did except husbands to be perfect, but avoiding serious injury or death is very low bar. If the church cannot unconditionally condemn torturing, or killing your wife, this isn’t an exaggeration in the weeks followed childbirth, especially the early weeks, and he willing to risk killing her, (its still extremely dangerous and a leading cause of death in the world, and the doctors did tell the idiot) then we still have a church that prioritizes mass death and extreme suffering over life. Cleanliness, potable running water, adequate nutrition and modern health care can reduce a lot of this, but child spacing and smaller family size (achieved with contraception usually) and sexual consent are major factors in reducing malnutrition, disease, disability and death even in rich developed countries. If a man is unwilling to use consensual sex (I’m going to assume his wife doesn’t want sex the day after she gave birth or before six-eighth weeks postpartum if this was an issue to begin with).
Fertility awareness can work, but it requires a man who cares about the lives and well being of his wife and children, and also his wife’s sexual pleasure.
Consent can work, even with headship and submission, but it also requires a man who cares about his wife and children’s well being, and values his wife’s sexual pleasure.
I don’t think the Bible is soft spoken in this issues and I find it very telling that the church is. On smaller points I can see disagreement, but the extent to which the church, (not just catholic but evengelical and fundamentalist Protestant churches as well) will go to inflict severe suffering and harm in women and children to preserve a man’s sexual dominance in marriage at all costs proves a much darker motive than love, leadership, mutual service, and isn’t even something that would appeal to most men who don’t enjoy hurting and violating and degrading their wife’s.
I really wish the church would quit being so mealy mouthed and hypocritical about this and insists that mutual respect and concern for one another’s wellbeing is actually a requirement before spouse can exercise their sexual rights in marriage, because the sexual rights are based on the assumption that spouses respect and care about and consider one another. If a spouse skips the care and respect and consideration and simply used conjugal rights to coerce the other spouse into enduring extreme pain or to justify harming or seriously injuring, or giving a life threading illness, or killing a spouse that’s not Biblical that’s the husband being a tyrant, and sinning against his wife. Call it was it is and quit making excuses for it.
I also think this lumping medical situations, female sexual dysfunction, and past sexual trauma in with all sexual refusal makes men’s natural sex drive seem much darker and uglier than it really is. Most men want a willing partner, and do care about their wife and do sexually want to please her. Insisting on absolute unconditional male sexual domination and female sexual complaince at all costs including extreme suffering, starvation , and death makes it seem like this is something most men are looking for and that women are just recepticals for men. It also makes women think their relationship with God is conditional on sexual compliance to their husband.
This really isn’t the case. And while sexually subservience at all costs fits well with misogyny, it’s compatible with Corinthians or the Jewish custom of sexual pleasure being the wife’s right, and the husband’s obligation to provide.
Sex just isn’t that complicated, unless there are medical problems, often related to aging, or a couple is young and inexperienced enough that they don’t know how. Relationships can be that complicated and that can shut sex down, but that’s really a relationship problem not a sex problem.
Again I don’t want I make men in sexless marriages think that it’s always there fault because sometimes the problem has nothing to do with the man, so he can’t fix it. Past sexual abuse or pelvic floor problems or endometriosis won’t be solved by a man being nicer. He can’t fix what he didn’t break and the treatment of women’s health issues still has a long way to go.
My husband has stopped having sex with me. He says he doesn’t feel it anymore. He won’t have a discussion, he starts yelling at me till I start crying and then he gets in his truck and drives away because he knows it the thing that scares me the most (my last husband drove off during a fight and never came back, abandoning me and. My two children)
We used to have the best sex life, we were warm and loving and adventurous. We. Cuddled for hours andnow it’s.nothing. He cringes when I talk to him and he spends as little time with me as he can. I miss him so much but I know talking to. him will start a fight. I’m guessing he has already left me for another woman and he’s having sex with her. I can’t live like this
I’m sorry for what you are dealing with. It sounds like a bad situation. A husband that treats a wife that way has a lot of baggage going on inside, and you are the one he is pointing it too. God will be there for you, so keep turning to Him. I am in a similar boat with my wife. Worried she will leave and take the kids and I don’t trust her with my kids. She hasn’t kissed me in about three years, and sex is rare, and if it happens at all, it is one-sided. I am concerned about how it is for her and she has admitted that, “the sex is good” she just isn’t interested in anything else about me. She is stuck in herself. Try focusing on other people, try and get your husband thinking about other people. Not you, not the kids, someone outside your family, or in if there is a need. My mom suffered with depression for years, counseling and therapy never got her anywhere but further from us. It wasn’t until she started helping someone truly in need that she found herself. Just as Christ set himself and his desires aside to help and save us, he found his purpose in life. I wish you the best of luck! Be strong and of good faith!
I have found this teaching on 1 corth 7 many times. I have also found the most choose to teach the version of this passage that excludes “fasting and prayer”. They would rather just touch on the versions that only state prayer. Let me be clear, I’m in agreement 90% of what is written here. The thing is most translations state not to with hold and if you its with fasting and prayer. Don’t read what I’m not saying. Instead think, who among you could go 3 weeks without eating? How about 3 months or 9 months?
If you with hold for legitimate reasons fast as well. That keeps things honest.
I dont know if this makes sense but i have same issue. but i feel deprived of sex from my husband. he much rather feel him self and i believe he is being unfaithful by doing so. they way of haveing sex is by just saying come on so we can have sex and that is me putting it in nice way. i cant figure out if GOD allows me to walk away from him. after all he has sex alone. so i feel deprived of use of his body and mine. any suggestions.
I have read all these post and i get so confused and lost in the stories. Simply put wives have a responsibility to their husbands and vice versa. There is no in between. However; each also has the responsibility to remain Christian and faithful to God. Any thing other than that produces maniacs married. When two people cant sit and tell each other what physical or mental ailment has interrupted their life or separated them, then both need to go to altar and forget about the bed period. We serve a God that can fix things when we allow him to, so there are no excuses. Do what needs to be done husband and wife. Trust God with your issues and listen to his voice. Finally wife, when the husband forfeits his faith and refuses to get right with God then its time to put him on notice. Let him know what you need from him and a Godly man should be able to tell you why he cant deliver and what you together can do to rectify the problem. Anything less than this leads people to live beneath the intention of God. We as Christians do so comfortably using science and reason as a platform to allow what God has joined together to be a continued joke in front of the world. Do what you need to do. If you cant then admit it, fix it quickly using faith as your guide and move on living the promises of God. The church has too many divorces and infidelities for no good reason.
Gosh, just reading through the comments really cleared up any confusion I USED to have about what Paul says after that verse, about staying single unless you’re just burning with passion.
I’ve been on both sides of this issue. In my first marriage I had the higher sex drive. I was usually turned down. In fact if I tried lingerie or even suggestive pjs, it seemed to guarantee he turned me down. That’s not even the deprivation I would fault him for though, because I still believe it had some psychological basis he never did share with me. He actually rarely shared anything deep about himself with me or anyone else as far as I could tell.
What he did deprive me of was love, affection, validation, even my input into issues that were important to our lives and in some cases our children. For the sake of brevity I’ll just say I found myself a divorced mother of four who had almost no conventional job experience and a case of CPTSD.
Now in my second marriage I’m the one with the “problem”. My husband is 9 years younger than I am and has a very high drive, while mine has been squashed and damaged by years of emotional abuse, baggage, long-term (took as prescribed) use of antidepressants and antianxiety meds (which I’m off now and can tell you did some surprising unexpected damage to my body and my brain) and also my own run ins with terrible sins.
Thankfully I found Sheila’s blog and with that and other biblical studies am working on healing the years of damage I experienced (a fair amount I inflicted on myself)
The thing I realize though:
UNTIL I started to find the help I needed, I didn’t think I had a problem. I thought it was strictly something physical and he and I were just different. And feeling guilty about not wanting it as much as he did, did not feel RIGHT. It felt unfair. I was making compromises with him, so I was trying, but then even that began to feel unfair. (I don’t blame my current husband mind you, he’s wonderful) Because to someone who has damage or hang-ups, those things are what you feel first.
They rarely let anything else by them.
Please be patient with your spouses. When you voice your concerns, do it gently and hopefully from a point of caring that something is perhaps not right. (The thing being some other suffering they may have had, not that you’re waiting for your needs to get met and pronto)
Sex is not the only thing we can be deprived of, not the only thing that can damage us.
I love my husband dearly so for him and for me, I’m working to get to a place where I have no more hang-ups and we can have a great fulfilled marriage in every way that matters. He loves me dearly so he’s being patient and understanding with me. I always feel supported in this. Actually, if he wasn’t supportive, I’m sure this would be taking me much longer and would be much more difficult.
That’s a wonderful comment! And I love how you’re focused on doing what’s healthy and good, rather than trying to find that elusive “fair”. Exactly!
To be quite honest, this is why I am no longer a Christian and so glad of it. Throwing Bible scriptures at each other to shame, coerce, and guilt people into doing what you want them to do is so against everything ‘Christianity’ claims to stand for. As Gandhi said, “I like your Christ, but I don’t like your Christians.”