At marriage conferences my husband and I tell the story of a couple that had been married for thirty years.
The wife was very unhappy. Her husband didn’t communicate well. He wasn’t mushy. He wasn’t overly affectionate.
Finally, on their anniversary, she broke down and said to him, “I just feel so distant from you! I don’t even know if you love me anymore!”
Flabbergasted and annoyed, he replied, “I told you on our wedding day I love you. If it ever changes, I’ll let you know.”
A lot of men, I think, would identify with that scenario. They wooed their wives, they got them down the aisle, so now the romance is done.
But before you women get all judgmental on these pathetic, Neanderthal men, is this attitude really so wrong? The man did love his wife, he just didn’t see a need to tell her all the time. He assumed she knew. Why else would he have married her?
She, on the other hand, wanted the constant reassurance that he did love her. She wanted to know that he cherished her, and she needed affirmation to believe it. She couldn’t just rely on a wedding service years ago.
So who’s right, and who’s wrong? That’s the question that Dalrock asked on his blog last week, citing several movies showing this “endless courtship” demand, where a man has to prove his worth over and over again, even after he has already wed her. He has to keep winning her. He writes:
This also plays into the endless courtship fantasy. The husband is essentially forced to reprove his worthiness to her all over again. Typically he is required to perform a feat of daring or great cunning (or both) in order to rescue her, or at the very least prove himself to her. He is also shown actively seeking her affection in the process.
Dalrock criticizes these movies. (And I think he has most of them right, although I would question his feelings about the movie Fireproof. In that case, the husband had, in my view, violated his wedding vows by using pornography constantly, and she was preparing to leave him. It wasn’t a “prove yourself to me in our everyday marriage” scenario; it was a “you’ve already lost me because of something you did”, and he did need to woo him again. I think the issue there is that some may not consider constant pornography use to be violating the marriage covenant, but I do, and so I think the point made in Fireproof is valid. But that’s an aside.)
Anyway, my take on this is that Dalrock is both right and wrong. It really depends on how you frame the question.
He’s right in that many women do enter marriage with a fantasy that it will be an endless knight on shining armour, where he will prove his love over and over, and be utterly romantic, and continue to sweep his wife off of her feet, and that this is right and proper and expected. In fact, in these movies the husband has never conclusively “won” his wife, even after the altar. Sure, they’re married, but he has to keep doing stuff to show her that he is still worthy of being married to. And then, when it doesn’t happen, women get grumpy and resentful and unhappy and find fault with everything men do, and even, eventually leave.
That scenario does occur, and it is wrong. An unromantic husband is not an excuse to withdraw from your marriage, let alone leave your marriage. It is not an excuse to complain about your husband or to withhold your own affection.
Our culture has established that the basis of marriage is this lovely romantic feeling, rather than a simple commitment. And we need to get back to the idea that you made a commitment. So stick with it. Absolutely.
I’m with him there.
Here’s where I depart from him (although, to be fair, he may agree with what I’m saying below. He just didn’t mention it in his post).
While I firmly believe that a woman should stay in a marriage and love and accept her husband even if he is not romantic, I do not think this is the ideal situation. I don’t want to settle for a mediocre marriage. I want an amazing marriage. I want a marriage where both spouses have their legitimate needs met, and God did make us with some very legitimate needs. We need to feel emotionally and spiritually connected to our husbands at a very deep level.
So here’s the question: what do you do when you don’t feel that way? We’ve already said you’re not allowed to leave, nor is it wise or proper or good to withhold from your husband. So can I suggest another option that is much healthier?
Focus on building up the friendship. If all couples simply learned to have fun together and laugh together, a lot of this bickering over “am I getting enough sex?” or “do I feel loved?” would go away. When you have a strong foundation of friendship, you can usually work out the other stuff. And when you’re friends with your husband, you will tend to feel love, even if he doesn’t say it.
In marriages, too often the only conversations we have are about logistics: who is going to pick up the kids; who needs a dentist appointment; I think the car is due for an oil change. Too many days and weeks of nothing but this and you’re going to feel distant. You’re going to wonder if he does really cherish you.
But if, in the middle of that, you also go for walks, or do a puzzle, or play tennis, or go for a swim, or toss a football around, or have a water fight, or anything where you’re actually doing something together, you’ll feel more connected.
And here’s the key, ladies: don’t wait for him to create these scenarios. If you feel distant, you take the lead on forging a stronger friendship. Don’t resent him and wonder if he still loves you. Just do stuff together, and once you start to laugh, you’ll feel connected again.
One more thing: often men aren’t affectionate because their primary needs aren’t being met. If you feel like he’s not meeting your needs for relationship, maybe it’s time to take a hard look at yourself and figure out if you’re meeting his. I’ve got an in-depth post–and a challenge–on that right here.
So that’s my take: we do expect endless courtship, and not receiving it is not reason for divorce or for resentment. At the same time, we do have a legitimate need for connection. So if you have a need that you don’t think is being met, do something about it! Your husband wants to feel connected, too. Change the dynamic in your marriage, rather than waiting for him to change, and you both will likely feel much better about the relationship.
Sheila Wray Gregoire has been married for 25 years and happily married for 20! She loves traveling around North America with her hubby in their RV, giving her signature "Girl Talk" about sex and marriage. And she's written 8 books. About sex and marriage. See a theme here? Plus she knits. Even in line at the grocery store.
I love that you said, “Don’t wait for him to create these scenarios.”
So often women complain, “My husband never takes me out on dates anymore.” I was guilty of that same complaint for years. But one day an older, wiser woman challenged my thinking. And she was right!
Why do we want him to do the planning? Because it means he’s thinking of us.
But honestly, those times when he does plan stuff out, are we truly satisfied? Not usually, because he has a tendency to overlook certain details (such as lining up a sitter or making a reservation on the busiest night of the year).
The fact is, women are better at details and planning than men (as a general rule). So if we plan the date, chances are we’ll enjoy it! Chances are, he will, too. After all, he just wants to hang out together.
So now I make the dates. I book the sitter for the weekend just following pay day, and I email my sweetie an Outlook invitation to date night. I ask him if there’s anything he’d like to do, and if he doesn’t have a preference I start listing suggestions. Eventually, we settle on something, even if it’s just browsing the bookstore and having a coffee together.
I get my “quality time” and a bit of romance, and both he and I are released from my unreasonable and unrealistic expectations. It’s win-win. 🙂
That’s awesome, Tyler. I think when we release our husbands from the need to live up to our expectations, our marriages really do get better!
That is so funny, because that is my husband and me – in reverse! He absolutely craves verbal affection, while I am the type that would say “Geez, we said I love you at the altar, do we have to keep saying it all the time?” It’s something that I have to work on, because I do not enjoy giving or receiving verbal affection – I have absolutely no “verbal affirmation” in my love language. Unfortunately, that’s my husband’s ONLY love language, LOL!!
Diana, sometimes we are opposite! 🙂 But at least you know! That’s the main thing. Thanks for dropping by!
Thanks for the linkage Sheila!
All of the movies I listed were cases where the husband had to reprove himself after the wife had either walked away from her marriage vows or was threatening to do so. Fireproof is exactly in that camp. Admittedly I haven’t watched the movie, but no one has pointed out something missing from the summary so far which would change my view. He disagreed with her on how to spend their money, and he viewed pornography. He hadn’t actually spent the money, he just wasn’t following her leadership. I agree that pornography is a problem he needed to address, but I don’t see this as grounds for her to walk from the marriage. Likewise if she was reading romance novels. She took off her wedding ring and started trying to have an affair. Even worse, it sounds like many Christian women identified with her, instead of seeing this behavior as whorish. I find that deeply troubling.
As for your larger point, I agree that men have an obligation to continue to meet their wives’ needs during marriage. This will generally include attraction building alpha traits as well as comfort building beta traits (romance). But this can’t happen with a wife who is looking for an excuse to violate her marriage vows, or at the very least this makes it extremely difficult.
Agree completely with your latter points, Dalrock. I think in the movie Fireproof it went beyond not following her leadership on money, though. And the main issue was his addiction to porn, which was a real offense in my books. Yes, she’d taken off her wedding ring, but I would argue that he had already had an affair (with porn), and had told her that he would continue and didn’t care about her take on it. So this wasn’t as clear cut as the other movies that you mentioned.
I think what the movie was trying to portray was a marriage in which one party had completely messed up, and the other party was fairly innocent. Because the movie was trying to show people how to fight for your marriage once it looks too late. He had been adicted to porn, and was using the money he had saved for something which was pure pleasure for him, and ignoring genuine medical need in the family. So it was pretty clear that the guy was in the wrong.
The wife had decided to leave, and was interested in another doctor for a second marriage (not just an affair, and she certainly was not going to sleep with him until they were divorced. She also considered her marriage over). So I don’t think it’s that she was “whoring”, as much as it was that he had broken the vows and was completely unrepentant (at the beginning of the movie) and pushing her away.
I do think there are situations in marriage where you need to “woo” in order to rebuild trust, when you have been the one to break trust. That’s what the movie was about, and I thought it portrayed it well. Expecting someone to “woo” in the absence of broken trust, though, is completely unrealistic and wrong, and misunderstands the wedding vows.
So that’s just my take on it!
Thanks Sheila. I haven’t seen the movie, so I can only go by the summaries. The ones I read suggest it was as much about him not doing the housework as his wanting to buy a boat and viewing porn. On the porn issue, one thing the summaries don’t tell me is how long it had been an issue. Had he checked out of the marriage for many years and instead only viewed porn? I would tend to see that differently.
I might either ask my audience if any of them have seen it, or maybe I’ll take a bullet for the team and actually netflix the movie as blog homework.
Probably the worst thing about the movie though is we are in the middle of a pandemic of wife initiated frivolous divorce. The data on this is absolutely conclusive, and I’d be happy to share it with your audience if you like. As we both have agreed in the past, Christian women don’t see themselves as having obligations to their marriage and husbands. So Christians see that women aren’t keeping their promises, and they create “Promise Keepers” to implore men to keep their promises. Then they come up with movies showing men as being at fault. Even if the wife in the movie was planning a biblical divorce (which I am not convinced), the movie was tuned to be sympathetic to the would be frivolous divorcees in the audience (why else the bit about housework which is in every summary I’ve read). Even worse, when husbands start supplicating to their wives this only makes the wife even more unhappy, as this destroys his role as the leader God intended husbands to be. As I understand it, with the continuing pandemic of wife initiated frivolous divorce, the same group has made another movie “reaffirming marriage” (this time with police instead of firemen), and surprise surprise, it is again the man who needs to change his ways and win back his wife or get back in the lives of his kids.
How many millions more kids need to grow up without fathers before Christians are willing to look this issue in the eye? Would 100 million do it?
Dalrock, I would LOVE to have you write a post on the stats for women initiated divorce, something which I have mentioned quite a bit here, too. And I absolutely believe it’s a huge problem. But as J mentioned in her comment, the Love Dare thing wasn’t intended to be something that guys did for their wives; it really was for both, and it was started by a woman, not a man. So I’m not saying your premise is wrong; I’m just saying I’m uncomfortable saying that Fireproof falls into that category. And the porn had been going on for years.
Yes, they did make a new movie called Courageous, but as I understand it, that’s more about fatherhood than it is about marriage. It’s calling men to be good fathers, but I haven’t seen it yet, so I really can’t say. I would love to see a movie urging women on to be good wives, too, and that’s certainly what I’m trying to do here.
But yes, I would LOVE a guest post, where you can be as hard on Christian women as you want. And then we here can debate it. That would be awesome.
This is the other side of the same coin. We have crafted a system of child support and welfare which rewards women for kicking out the father of their children. Academics have studied the incentives for divorce, and found that the most powerful one is the guarantee of custody women can all but safely presume. Not that it should matter, but one of the authors of the study was a woman. She was not expecting those results.
What I’m saying is that Christians are being willfully blind here. You shouldn’t need data to see the obvious reality here, but Christians don’t want to do anything righteous which might make themselves or women in general uncomfortable. It isn’t random that Fireproof just happened to show the husband in the wrong, just like it isn’t random that the next installment just happens to show fathers in the wrong for being kicked out of their kids lives by the mother. Just like it wasn’t random that Promise Keepers is all about men keeping promises, when statistically we face a pandemic of Christian women not keeping their promises. Acknowledging and addressing the issue may be uncomfortable, but the comfort of denial and inaction comes at a crushing cost to literally millions of kids.
I completely agree with you. I saw Courageous a few days ago and wrote a post about it and turned it around and encouraged woman to do everything possible to keep their husbands happy and at home. I do think women have a HUGE responsiblity in having a happy home. The promise about “winning them without a word” is to women, not men.
One more thought, Dalrock–
I would agree that it is primarily women who file for divorce. However, they do so for a reason. I would agree that the reason, in most cases, is not sufficient. But it is still there (they feel unloved, they feel as if their husbands had checked out, etc.)
Now, if you were a Christian man or a Christian pastor, what are you going to do about it? Most men feel that they should be primarily talking to men. So as a guy, you’re going to address the guys about the problems that they have control over. So they will preach at their guys to get more engaged in the marriage.
This doesn’t mean they think women are saints; it is just that it’s not entirely appropriate for a bunch of men (like the people who made Fireproof and Courageous and Facing the Giants) to smack women around, metaphorically. They’re guys. So they’ll talk to guys.
Similarly, I don’t think men are saints in marriage, either, but you will never see on this blog advice to men on how they can shape up, because I’m not talking to men because I’m a woman. I’m talking to women about what they should do.
Therefore, I don’t think the problem is with the makers of Fireproof. They’re talking to men as they should. The problem is that women are not stepping up to the plate enough to talk to other women. If more women stepped up to the plate, and started telling women that they needed to do more in their relationships, maybe we’d see some change.
But it’s pretty hard for a male pastor to get up there and say to the women, “you need to have sex more”. It may be true, but it wouldn’t be taken well. It’s better coming from a woman. So what we need is not for the makers of Fireproof to make a movie addressed to women about when they do stuff wrong; we just need more women to start making their own movies and writing their own books (as I’m trying to do).
@Sheila
If marriage is something which only has meaning when both sides feel like it is of value, then honestly what is the point? Yes of course frivolous divorcees divorce because they are unhappy in their marriage. Just like thieves steal because they want something. This has to be the foundation of any discussion of marriage. It has meaning. It is for life. There are a limited set of truly biblical reasons for divorce, and even then it is an incredible act of destruction. Trying to convince husbands to plead for their wive’s fidelity (for this is exactly what we are talking about here) will only lead to disaster. I think the church has pretty well proven this.
I don’t actually disagree wtih you on this–I’m just saying that if you were a pastor, looking at the divorces in your church, what would you say to the men? Wouldn’t you say, “learn how to speak your wife’s love language”? Or be there for the kids. Don’t get overcommitted at work. Spend time with your family? I think these are all very valid points.
Yet I would agree that this doesn’t get at the most major problem–which is that a lot of women feel that if they don’t feel appreciated/cherished in their marriage, they can go. All I’m saying is that I’m not sure the guys are the best ones to give this message. I think that should fall on the women.
As for Promise Keepers, such a large part of their mission right now is just getting guys to stop looking at porn, which again is a huge issue which is arguably even more destructive to a marriage than a one-night stand would be. So I do think they do valuable work.
Incidentally, I think there’s a bit of a warped picture of ministry here, in that it looks from the outside like Promise Keepers was created to lecture to men, while there’s nothing lecturing to women. Nothing could be further from the truth. Promise Keepers is so well known because they have huge conferences, but there are far more women involved in women’s Bible studies and women’s events than there are men. You have to “do it big” for guys to get them out; most women are already involved in a Bible study or a moms & tots group every week, where they do hear about marriage. So it’s not like women aren’t being given the message. More women hear it than men, it’s just that the male side is more famous because it’s done in huge stadiums, rather than in individual church basements (and there are huge women’s conferences, too, so it’s a whole other industry).
I also know that in Canada, where I am, for instance, the rate of divorce of first marriages among Christians who attend church is under 30%, about 20 percentage points lower than the general population. That’s still too high, but it is lower. Many of the studies that show that the divorce rate among Christians is higher or just as high are flawed, and they’re almost all American based.
But can I paraphrase what I think your larger point is? I think what you’re saying is that, even if it would be good for men to become more involved with their kids, or more affectionate with their wives, the constant preoccupation of the church and Christian culture with men’s shortcomings contributes to women’s perceived justification in being dissatisfied. If the church stopped telling men what they were doing wrong, then they would stop feeding the dissatisfaction.
Is that right?
Actually I wouldn’t. The reason is that most marriages don’t suffer from a husband who is insufficiently subservient to his wife, it suffers because the husband isn’t in a leadership role. If Christians believed the bible on this issue, then that would be sufficient. Clearly it isn’t for 99% of Christians. Fortunately science is telling us the same thing. Men like Athol Kay have detailed this very well. More groveling/following what the wife wants not only won’t solve the problem, it will make it much worse. Husbands need to keep a delicate balance of leadership and demonstrating their love and commitment to their wives. Feminism has run over this delicate balance with a mack truck.
My first message would be painfully simple. Women, honor your marriage vows or you are being a whore. I know that is harsh, but sometimes we need to speak uncomfortable truths. I would command men in equally harsh terms to keep their vows, but honestly this isn’t our primary problem. Then I would tell husbands to reclaim the leadership role as a husband and wives to follow the biblical commandment to let him take that role.
Women think this is about men not doing enough housework* and doing enough date nights. In reality both husbands and wives are suffering due to the husband having been emasculated. Fix this, and both sides will be happy. Simply telling the husband to work less, become Mr. Mom, and romance her more will only make her more enraged, because it won’t be what she wanted.
*By housework they mean traditionally women’s roles, not all of the other work men already do around the house
This is a part of it. The church and movies like this are condoning the frivolous behavior. But even worse, they are proscribing gasoline as a fire extinguisher. No matter how often this blows up, they proscribe it again.
I get what you’re saying. And what you’re saying is also essentially Promise Keepers’ main message: get back and take leadership. So I don’t think you’re that far off from what they’re saying. And I’d agree that what women want is not for men who do more housework, but for men who act like men and are involved as men should be (ie. more in a leadership role, not in a male father of Bambi invisible role).
I understand where you are coming from here, but honestly this is a copout by any man who takes this perspective. He either is the pastor of the entire congregation, or he needs to find a new line of work. Yes it is uncomfortable calling this stuff out. But which discomfort is more important? The Pastor finding his job isn’t as fun as he would like, or millions of kids growing up in broken homes?
I’d agree with you on that, I’m just mentioning the practicalities of it. I think I’ll send a link to this comment thread to my pastor!
The Bible does exhort the “older women to train the younger women” so I agree with Sheila on this point. The older women need to step up to the plate!
Sheila, thank you for pointing out that women file for divorce for a reason. I’m so tired of that over-used line that women file for divorce more, because it does not at all address the reasons for the papers. Such as but not limited to:
1. His unrepentant use of porn, as you mentioned
2. He’s spending their income (including hers) on himself. She wanted to be a stay at home, home-schooling mom and he told her to get a “real job.” Then he spent the financial increase on a brand-new dually quad-cab w/ chrome trim. She can leave him and at least keep her income for herself, and not be bothered with his laundry and picky palate.
3. He’s verbally abusive, and has been for years, or decades. She’s tired of being called stupid, worthless, undesirable, or worse(with that type, often worse).
4. He’s actually beating their kids, in the name of “discipline.” Or beating her.
In any of the above cases, the husband might be perfectly content to stay married, and have his dinner cooked for him, his laundry washed for him, his household income increased for him, his crotch pleasured for him, and generally look like a success to outsiders. In any case, divorce lawyers can be expensive and a hassle, so why bother? If a man is married to a woman who believes in submission to any extent, or even “go-along-get-along,” then divorce is rarely in his interest, especially financial.
I do not intend to suggest that all women are divorcing for legitimate reasons, or that men all the men being filed against are scoundrels. I am *only* suggesting that the line “more women than men file for divorce” really tells us *nothing* about divorce. It’s nice to see someone admit that for us, publicly.
I would like to challenge Dalrock to watch Fireproof (if even as an assignment). Neither the wife nor the husband are Christians during their first (maybe seven?) years of marriage. The fighting, pettiness, financial irresponsibility, porn addiction, emotional affair, etc. all take place before that decision and are portrayed very realistically. The tension resounded authentically with dozens of couples that we spoke to after seeing the film.
The decision to sacrifice personal desires, to gain the trust and love of his wife back, is made by the husband AFTER he understands the sacrifice Christ made for him (and everyone). Only Christians, relying on God’s power, can know the depths of forgiveness available to offer their spouse.
@Sherry
I’m confused, and perhaps I need to see the movie. You are saying the business with the wife stopping wearing her wedding ring, hiding the fact that she was married and lining up another man occurred before her husband accepted the 40 day challenge, and that the movie shows this as a very shameful whorish act. This isn’t how I understand it from the summaries. In fact, one summary is very clear that she only puts her wedding ring back on in the very end of the movie, and that the doctor she is going after didn’t know she was married and broke it off after the fireman husband confronted him. If instead they are judging her for acting like a harlot, then showing her repenting and reproving herself to her husband as part of her own 40 day challenge, this would make the movie something else entirely.
Can you confirm this for me please? If so, I don’t need to see the movie but wouldn’t mind doing so. If the movie shows the wife as essentially an innocent victim whom the husband has to convince not to be a whore by him completing a marriage challenge, then I would really find it painful to watch.
Dalrock, I’d agree with Sherry’s assessment. Both characters only came to repentance later in the movie after the marriage had fallen apart, and she did take off her wedding ring before he did the 40 day challenge. They both did apologize to each other at the end of the movie (and the movie did show where she was also being too unrealistic of her husband, and choosing not to see when he was doing stuff right). It was actually a very good portrayal of how a marriage can fall apart, and how you can bring it back together by remembering commitment. I really don’t think you’d disagree with it.
I’ll watch the movie, but I promised my wife she wouldn’t have to. Neither of us have any stomach for the modern cultural glorification of frivolous divorce.
In the summary it says the doctor was married. So according to you she was planning on breaking up another marriage so she could marry the doctor.
And you honestly don’t see this as whorish? Honestly I fear this may well be the problem.
You know, I actually don’t remember about the doctor. I think he was separated, too, but I honestly don’t remember. I know that she drops him like a hot potato once she realizes what she’s doing later in the movie. I only saw the movie once, and I was kind of tired!
But I’d still love for you to give me something, even if it’s short, on the stats about women ditching marriages. This is a message I want to bring home!
Thanks for hearing me out Sheila. I’ll see what I can put together for your audience on divorce stats. I think they will be very surprised. The hard data paints a very different picture than popular culture does.
Somewhere else in this discussion you noted that Christian divorce rates in Canada were much lower than non Christian. I’m skeptical on this, but would love to see the data (and even more so love to be wrong in my skepticism). I did a post a while back on how proud Glen Stanton of Focus on the Family/The Baptist Press was that devout evangelicals only divorced 38% of the time:
http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/christian-marriage-only-experiences-catostrophic-failure-38-of-the-time/
Sure, I will try to find it for you. It really depends on how you define “evangelical”. If you confine it to people who go to church on a weekly basis usually, the divorce rate drops substantially. I remember seeing studies from the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada and the Fraser Institute (and I’ve seen similar stuff from Britain), so I’ll see if I can dig it up for you.
@Sheila
Yes, this is what they were crowing about (links to original articles in my post linked above):
I had seen closer to 32%, which I think is still too high, obviously, but that’s in the Canadian context.
You know what I’d be really curious about, but I don’t know if such a study exists? The divorce rate of people who were both attending church on a weekly basis the year that they were married. Because if you survey just the people who are in church now, you don’t know if they were in church when they were married (and you also get those who aren’t married to believers). But I don’t know if anyone’s ever done such a study. I just know that looking at the churches I’m involved in, the divorce rate would be closer to 20%. So I can’t figure out where the 38% comes from, because the vast majority of people that I know at church don’t divorce. I mean, of all the people I went to university with, probably 25 couples who were involved with me in campus ministry, only one has divorced (and she married a guy 15 years her senior). So that’s what I can’t figure out: how come this doesn’t mesh with what I see? Am I just horribly naive? (You’d probably argue that I am, but I’m being truthful here 🙂 ).
Anyway, regardless of what the true figures are, the fact remains that it is still FAR TOO HIGH, and I agree with you that it is largely the woman who files for divorce, and usually the grounds are not sufficient. So we do need to do more to stop this from happening, and fight against the “divorce industry” that sells divorce. I think no-fault divorce is absolutely insane. My husband’s a doctor; it’s disgusting to think that I could go and have an affair and leave him and still take half of what we have together, and he’d have to pay me alimony (I put him through med school, after all), and I’d get the kids. That’s absolutely insane.
I think you have seen the post I wrote where I suggested that Pastors and congregations measure just this type of thing themselves. Just knowing someone cared enough to make sure they were keeping their promise would likely help keep many couples on track. And the act of measuring it would naturally keep the importance of the issue high in the minds of the church leaders.
Your question on where all of the divorce is coming from given your own observations is a good one. I would say it is a very good sign that the people you are around have a very low divorce rate. Partly because of the contagious nature of divorce, and partly because who we surround ourselves with often says more about our true values than what we write and say. Part of my passion on the topic comes from my wife’s experience as a teacher at Christian private schools. The percentage of kids in her classes who were from broken homes was astounding, and truly heartbreaking. The girls there were already getting the message on marriage loud and clear, too. Several 7th and 8th grade girls in her classes talked openly about “starter marriages”. When my wife told some of the girls how long she had been married, they responded with disbelief To the same man? These girls knew what their church and the school itself really cared about, and keeping marriage vows wasn’t on the list. This was at a Christian school in the Bible belt.
Aside from the obvious destruction this causes to husbands (or wives) and children, I think this kind of setup also causes great harm to the women themselves. Just because the state and the church won’t tell you what you are doing is wrong (not you, any of us), doesn’t change the fact that it is a terrible sin. The women (or men) who act on these incentives are clearly morally damaged by this action, and allowing them to deny the sin, greed, and theft in their actions harms them by squandering what would be an opportunity to repent. In my observation the corrosive nature of this stays with these women (or men) and is incredibly destructive to them. I’ve seen this personally and it shows up in many of the studies which have been done as well. I think there is a biblical term for what I’m describing. Perhaps you can help me out here.
I would agree with you about the corrosive nature to the person who leaves. Marriage has a purifying role–sort of like salt, I suppose, that the Bible talks about. I have seen so many people get divorced and then go downhill morally very fast. It’s like marriage keeps you stable. There’s a great book about that that escapes my mind now, but it’s premise is that marriage is good for society because it is preserving, and we owe it to society to stay married, not just to our kids. When we divorce, we hurt the whole community.
I would echo your wife’s sentiments about many Christian school kids. I’ve seen that, too. It’s been my experience that many parents send their kids to Christian schools thinking that this will protect them, and the school itself is almost as bad as the public school. Many families going through chaos will send their kids there, thinking it will fix everything. It can’t. I’m not saying all parents who send their kids there are horrible, but just that my teenage girls (who are homeschooled) are often quite amazed at how flirty and downright dirty many of the girls from the Christian high school are!
I like your idea about churches keeping track of their own divorce stats. I’ll mention that to my pastor again. I would genuinely be very interested in seeing that. And I would like to see it posted on the wall somewhere prominently, sort of like how companies post their quality control record, or their safety record (I think you mentioned that in a post a while back, too).
You need to see the movie if you want to discuss it!
Such a great post! Two things occurred to me while reading. (1) In Fireproof, (warning: spoiler) the father states that the Love Dare saved his own marriage because his wife did it with him. It wasn’t husbands in particular, but at least one of you needs to win back the other’s heart when it has been lost. (2) I wonder if unrealistic expectations are a big problem with unmarried women. For instance, the Twilight series – while entertaining – reinforced the notion of a perfect guy who falls into perfect love with an ordinary girl that lasts for an eternity. In reality, relationships require self-sacrifice, patience, and forgiveness for shortcomings. It takes ongoing commitment and work to create long-term intimacy. Thanks for addressing this, Sheila.
I completely agree with what you’re saying about Twilight, J. I’ve never liked that series for that reason. It’s a very unrealistic view of love, and if girls start using that as their measuring stick, we’re in serious trouble.
Great Post! We me, the more I have tried to love, serve, and please my husband, the more he adores me and wants to make me happy. We reap what we sow!!! God knows what He is talking about.
Ooppss. I meant to say “With me…” That is what happens when I am too spontaneous! and not careful enough! 🙂
My first thought while reading was about “love tanks”. I got this idea from “the 5 love languages”. There are things that cause my love tank to empty… leaks, etc… hard days, unkind words, that sorts. But it is my husband’s responsibility to help in refilling my love tank. For me, that means spend time with me chatting with me about the day and significant topics. It is also my responsibility to help refill my Hubby’s love tank. That means telling him how much I appreciate him, telling him that I love him, and, yes, having sex. whatever the various issues someone has, or insecurities, this is a basic need. when a Husband says, “I told you I loved you at the alter. Why repeat what hasn’t changed.” he is, perhaps, ignoring the fact that those words refill her love tank. We don’t tell our children once that we love them, and then move on. We remind them. God doesn’t tell us or show us just once that he loves us, but there are many ways that he communicates this.
Anyhoo, lots more thoughts, but there is much to do today! Thanks for a great post, Sheila.
Courtship at the beginning of any relationship is basically selling what you have to offer for the long term. Everything from being fit to the little things you do to woo your partner is expressing what and who you are. Naturally as the heart pounding phase wears down we all change and may not be as flashy as we were in the beginning, HOWEVER we still sold those expectations to our partner. Does that mean that every day for the rest of our lives we should be relentlessly courting our husbands or wives? No. I do think it means that both sides have an obligation to continue to live up to and should do their best from time to time to be that person that lit the fire under their spouses butt!! Pleasing your partner shouldn’t stop at the ring and alter.
My husband and I have been together for almost 5 years now, we have one son and another baby on the way. We haven’t stopped doing silly and crazy things to drive each other crazy. We still take time out to make that small talk about life before each other, even if we have heard the story a thousand times. But we have also grown to expect that not everyday is going to be heart pounding, butterfly crazy either and that’s ok. We always find our way back to each other and what brought us together in the first place. Courtship changes throughout the years and we all should see that as a good sign of a maturing relationship. To want to stay in the begging days is like saying you don’t want to grow old and comfortable with your spouse.
Sometimes it’s just ok to feel good and content in mutual silence and reflect on the fact that you have come far enough to be comfortable in a quiet moment without all the flashiness.
Good point, Christine. Comfortable is very, very nice! And you’re right: I do think we have an obligation to continue to please your partner. But if your spouse doesn’t live up to that obligation, that’s not a reason for you to ditch yours, or your marriage. It’s a difficult balance, isn’t it? Because yes, every marriage SHOULD be like yours. But if it’s not, you can’t leave. And that’s what people have a hard time accepting!
People don’t have to accept it when we live in a disposable society. Why fix it when we can just toss it and get something new? That has also overflowed into marriage. We did not say vows to each other, but we have discussed that our moral obligations outweigh any words we did or did not say on the day we got married(or rather in our case, met).
How many times have you heard someone say to a woman who is wallowing in pity about her husband not making her happy, “you deserve to be happy, he’s not good enough for you”.?? We need to remember that it’s not our husbands job to make us happy. And fight for our marriages every day. I have noticed that a lot of women stop taking care of themselves, like gaining excess weighbvt, dressing frumpy, and no make up. Is that how you caught his eye?? And when they are separated they magically lose 50 lbs, have their hair and clothes cute, and are wearing makeup. It really bothers me that so many people don’t take marriage seriously. Anyway I’m rambling, sorry. I enjoy reading your posts 🙂
Great rant, Helene! I couldn’t agree wtih you more! Thanks for taking time to comment. I love my lipstick, by the way :).
In my case, the frumpiness and letting myself go started long after the romance died. What’s the point in trying to keep myself looking good for him if looking good never resulted in reassurances of his love and attraction? I tried patiently over the years to explain my need for compliments and some flirtation or romance in order to feel desirable, but he just couldn’t seem to do it. So what’s the point in trying to keep myself attractive if I have the same boring husband either way? He made no effort so I gave up making an effort.
I realize that one commenter here said that women ought to consider taking the bull by the horns and setting up the dates herself instead of waiting on her husband to do this. While this is a good idea on occasion, it defeats the purpose of a man actively pursuing his marriage and taking initiative to show love on his own to his wife. The woman setting up the date is the woman’s action towards caring for the marriage. . . and this is the problem and the rub. . . Most women I’ve observed are the only partner in the marriage consistently and actively caring for the relationship. Men tend towards caring for their marriages in the same way that they care for household tasks or tuning up their cars. They put it on a list and check it off and forget about it until the calendar signals another scheduled tune-up or repair. It baffles them when they are confronted with a wife expressing she feels unloved and uncared for. Face it, I think most men marry for the sex, services (like preparing food, washing clothing, etc.) and cheerleading they hope to get from a woman that meets the, “I can stand having sex with her for the rest of my life.”
I don’t think they really marry a woman to encourage and support her in the way they want to be encouraged and supported. They don’t marry women with the thought that it’s very difficult to give up one’s name, trust a man to protect and cherish you, etc. Even the female commenter suggesting women take the initiative in setting up these dates comes from a POV that suggests that women are the main facilitators of the marriage. Are men babies? Do they need another mommy to schedule their dates?
I for one am tired of well-meaning Christians not holding men’s feet to the fire. The Bible is pretty clear that men need to love their wives as Christ loved His Bride, the Church. I don’t see Jesus standing at the foot of the cross saying to Himself: “Well, you guys are weren’t dying for today because there’s a ballgame on and you don’t look very pretty to me.”
Did Jesus and does He still ACTIVELY pursue His Bride? Should men continuously make their wives a priority and pursue them?
Another thing: I hate these lists that men are given to tell them how to show love to their wives. Buy her flowers. Write her little love notes. Do this for her. Do that for her. I think the best thing a man can do is quit relying on those generic lists, even such advice from “Christian” counselors, and start studying your wife. Make your own lists, men, that show you wanted to be sincere and genuine in your relationship with your wife. . . That you actually treasure your wife and realize she is a unique creation by God given to you to CARE FOR, PROTECT, SERVE, and HELP. You’d do this with your own children, wouldn’t you? Why not with your wife? The Bible tells me to get to know their wives. It’s easy to follow a list. It’s harder and demonstrates great care to genuinely get to know your wife.
(By the way, women should do the same for their husbands.)
I’m sick of “Christian” counseling advice. It’s sexist, it doesn’t take into account individuality, and it’s so pop culture.
Men, women have to have the babies. The least you could do is make a date once a week or two. Get off your butts. Feminism occurred because men liberated themselves from the home during the industrial revolution. . . And gradually, they turned their backs on their familial and marital duties. It particularly heightened post WWII.
Please, Christian church ladies, quit making excuses for Christian husbands. Somebody, PLEASE SOMEBODY, hold their feet to the fire. As long as you keep telling women to do what men ought to be doing, it’s not going to improve.
As for Dalrock, what a whiner. Yeah, women shouldn’t come at marriage with the illusion that they belong on a pedestal. Women should show up with their sleeves rolled up too. But MEN, Biblically, are considered the stronger vessel, and if that is so, then we must have higher expectations of them in being the protector, servant-leader, offering some physical and emotional security to the woman and children in his life. Love must be tough.
Women, quit facilitating the demise of the family. I’m sorry there have been bad examples for men from the generations of men before them, but somebody somewhere has got to start holding their feet to the fire. Husbands will fail if they fall for all these excuses you ladies and pastors make for them. Just like women shouldn’t withdraw from the marriage, men should NEVER do this. Guess what? Men are more guilty of withdrawing than women.
I think where you’re running into trouble is that you’re forgetting I’m giving advice to women. If I were to give advice to men, I would say a completely different thing. I would say to the men what you have basically said here: you need to pursue your wife. You need to cherish her. You need to give her affection. Absolutely.
But this is a blog for Christian women. Very few men read it. And so the advice I’m giving is for Christian women,in the context of, “what do you do when you’re in a relationship and your husband isn’t romantic?” It’s fine and dandy to say that he’s not being a good Christian husband and that he needs to step up to the plate, but that doesn’t help the woman in that situation. She needs some advice to handle things right now, when her husband isn’t changing.
Obviously if I could talk to the men I’d say something different, but the men aren’t here. And they’re not on blogs about how to be good Christian husbands, either. When I do speak at marriage conferences to both spouses then I firmly tell the men how to be romantic and what their wives need. But here I’m talking to women.
And the simple truth is that, while ideally men would recognize women’s need for affection and connection and love, many men don’t see it or value it in the same way. And if they don’t, that is not an excuse to withhold or to get out of the relationship. That is the truth, and that’s what women need to see. I think you’re judging all Christian counselling without looking at who it’s addressed to. When I talk to men, I give advice to men. But when I talk to women, I tell them the truth, assuming that they are my audience. And that truth is that you need to find a way to find peace with God and peace in your relationship even if he never changes, because there is no guarantee that he will.
I have to disagree with commentluv. Her attitude in my view is part of the problem.
I know no one is going to read this, but….
The men I know already do care for their marriages. We’re the ones who make sure the bills get paid, the money is earned to pay those bills, the cars run, the lawnmower and snowthrower work, the insects and rodents are properly exterminated, and the faucets don’t leak. We’re the ones who make sure the money is earned to pay for the date nights our wives demand. We’re the ones playing with our kids and making sure our sons don’t turn into thugs and our daughters don’t become sluts.
Is that not “caring for our marriages”?
You think men’s feet aren’t held to the fire? I certainly don’t know your experience. My feet are to the fire all the time. I have demands put on me every day by my wife, my bosses, my clients, my pastors and my coworkers. So forgive me for not listening for one minute to some entitled harpy shrieking about how men don’t do enough or don’t care enough. Men are already doing more than they can, while being simultaneously shackled by a legal system that threatens to destroy them any minute. And you tell husbands that they need to do more, care more, do more housework, and court wives more?
I don’t buy it. My patience has worn thin for “Christian” women who demand dates and endless courtship while simultaneously those same women believe they have no obligations to their husbands.
Deti, thanks for your comment. I actually addressed Commentluv in a much longer post, here: https://tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2011/12/am-i-too-hard-on-women/, echoing much of what you’re saying. I think part of the problem is that we’re in this constant “judging” mode, wondering if the other person is doing enough. We each need to get back to the only thing we can control: how we act in the relationship. Rather than waiting for the other to live up to our expectations, we should do what we can to create a great marriage.
I’m a little confused. All those things you cite as “caring for the marriage” are things you’d have to do if you lived alone in a home (mow the lawn, pay the bills, exterminate pests, etc.) So how is that “caring for the marriage?”
The lack of simple human charity in this approach is rather breathtaking. The number of Christian men who don’t geniunely do their best in marriage is vanishingly small. Having a list that he must adhere to or his feet will be held to the fire is not submissive – it’s selfish. It really is best in marriage to give your spouse lots of room to grow and always assume they’re doing their best. How many men started out married life determined to give her everything she needed but soon gave up because female needs tend to be insatiable? Having a bitter, sour wife standing in the doorway with her arms crossed, foot tapping, frowning, holding your feet to the fire must be barrels of fun. Sheesh! Besides, who made the list for how men should make their wives “feel loved?” Women did. Men lay down their lives every day by working, many of them long hours, many at physically or mentally demanding jobs, many at jobs they hate, so their families can eat and have a home. But it’s too much to ask for a sweet, giving, interested, listening, grateful wife? “Men are more guilty of withdrawing than women?” What? Where did you get that little tidbit? Most men stay in rotten marriages to rotten women because they feel obligated to keep their promises. Women should learn how that’s done by watching the men.
This is my first time posting since I found this blog a few days ago. I am trying to determine if I have a valid complaint or if I am just expecting to much/whining. I will try to show both sides to be fair.
I have been married for 4 years and we have 2 children. I am also pregnant with our 3rd child. My husband works long hour M-F. He leaves at 5:30 in the morning and get home around 6:30. He has back problems and finds his job very stressful. When he get home his routine is pretty much eat, bathe, read the bible & listen to a bible program, then go to sleep. Our conversation as far as I am concerned is minimal.
I stay home with the children (4 years old & 18 months), and go to school full-time online. I also have a part time job from home that is pretty undependable these days for an average of 10 hours per week.
I give my husband credit for sticking with a job he hates for his families sake. I feel this is a major sacrifice he makes on the behalf of his family, and I appreciate it. We are currently looking for other options for him.
My major concern is that my husband is not affectionate. Unless I initiate, there are no hugs, kisses, or I love you’s. I might hear a thank you for the dinner 1x in a blue moon. We never go anywhere, ever.
I have spoken to him numerous times, explaining my need for him initiating touch and affection. For me, always being the initiator of affection is frustrating because I feel a response at that point is only polite. The only time he shows any particular affection towards me is right before sex. We have sex at least 1x, and usually about 2x a week. He seems to be OK with the frequency, although the ideal for both of us would be 3x-4x per week.
I feel the lack of time he puts towards me is particularly frustrating since he plays a sport on the weekends (Sat&Sun) that he pretty much never misses, but when it comes to scheduling time together (nothing major, just sitting inside & watching tv or talking), it takes the back-burner.
Also, he spend a lot of time on the phone with friends while at work. In the light of these two things, I feel neglected.
Now that I am pregnant, I feel this lack of affection and intimacy even more. I am having a bit of depression with this pregnancy, and feel that some affection at home would really help. Usually I ask for affection calmly and try to explain my needs. In the last month or so, I have been getting angry, and having to apologize often for lashing out. Neither of us yell or disrespect each other in other ways, but this problem is really taking a toll on me. I don’t know what to do.
Also, I have if there is anything I am not doing to meet his needs, and he has said no.
Divorce is definitely not an option, but I feel maybe we should get counseling. I don’t have anyone I can talk to since I know your are suppose to keep other people out of your marriage, and work as a unit. Advice and perspective would be so appreciated.
I have not seen the film but I’d like to add my feelings on the subject. Endless courtship may not be possible but I think having your needs unfulfilled while trying to constantly meet his is unrealistic. How are you suppose to give into his needs like sex for example while you lack the intimacy you require to feel sexual desire for him. I don’t agree with one partner getting what they need while the other does not. I also don’t agree with the fact that not having your needs met on an emotional or intimate level means you Shouldn’t leave your marriage. I’m not saying to give up without trying to communicate or trying to make progress but I don’t believe in staying in an unhappy marriage and not feeling fulfilled. I think women give so much to others, they care for their family and are often the primary caregivers and housekeepers even while working full time. Why must a woman give blindly while not getting what she needs to be truly happy. Men should learn to plan things and take the lead in the romance department as well, if he knows his wife and what she likes it isn’t always up to her to plan enjoyable, friendship building activities. I’m not under the impression that life is like a movie and that everything will be Romantic and perfectly wrapped up with no loose ends but men have to learn to give, care, respect and provide as well. A husband who withholds affection and who shows no appreciation for his wife, who can’t fulfill her needs emotionally, sexually or otherwise is a husband who isn’t pulling his weight. He shouldn’t expect so much more than he gives and a woman shouldn’t put up with being unhappy in her marriage, that is no way to live. Even if he can’t maintain the same level of romance that he did at the beginning it shouldn’t decrease to the point that upsets his wife. Those gestures of love speak volumes about how close the couple is, how much they desire each other. A lot of men also turn on the charm in the initial stages of a relationship to entice females into a sexual relationship. That behaviour is misleading. If you aren’t the romantic type and have no intention of carrying on that way don’t pretend to offer something she wants just to snatch it away later. What do you expect women to do when they realize they aren’t getting what they signed up for, that some of the great qualities that attracted her to him in the first place are no longer there. How you are treated reflects how you feel about someone and how you treat them in return.
I am so grateful, this is by far the best article! my girlfriend is often upset with me for not taking effort into planning our dates (or taking initiative to ask her out) actually its true, I just want to be with her.
The way some marriage “experts” talk about how prosaic and dull ‘work’ marriage is with no expectation of romance, why would anyone want to tie the knot? Sounds to me like they’re telling women that men can get what they want but women aren’t allowed to? Personally, I’d rather stay single than settle for a marriage when the man sees me as if I’m just another piece of furniture! It’s not gonna kill the man to be nice and romantic once in a while. Not saying flowers every week, but at least acknowledge and talk to the wife and not just expect her to be the one who cooks and cleans in stony silence. What kind of marriage is that? A boring one, that’s what! Me? I expect a marriage to have some love and joy not be a constant push-pull struggle. If I want that I can go get a job I dislike lol