It’s Wednesday, the day when we talk marriage! I introduce a topic, and then you all can comment or link up your own marriage post at the bottom.
Today I want to talk about a difficult subject.
When I was 16 years old I participated in a summer missions team to the Philippines, where we built a kindergarten. Twenty-five or so teenagers along with six adult leaders. I had a wonderful time bonding with teammates, but I chafed at the leaders throughout all eight weeks. I just didn’t agree with their philosophy.
They were intent on making things hard for us so that we would be taught a lesson, even when there was no reason to. When we were mixing the cement, we had a delivery of two truckloads: one of rocks, and one of sand, to mix into gravel. The delivery men offered to make two different piles, but our team leader asked them to put them together, so that we would learn patience and submission by picking the rocks out of the sand. We could have been finished earlier, and spent more time witnessing or meeting the local congregation had he not done that. But he was determined that we should learn about suffering.
The theme during our Bible devotions was “The Way Up is Down”. We studied how Old Testament saints suffered in order to find favour with God. They taught that all summer, and I rebelled all summer. It seemed to me that if we deliberately seek out suffering just so that we could be extra holy we miss out on opportunities to actually serve and glorify God. And shouldn’t that be our main purpose?
It reminds me of a scary Christian movement that, as a marriage blogger, I must comment on. I know some of my readers respect and revere Michael and Debi Pearl’s book, To Train Up a Child, which advocates strong use of what I would term extreme corporal punishment. Several children have been killed when their parents took the advice in this book to the extreme.
But Debi Pearl has also written a book called “Created to Be His Helpmeet”. Mrs. Pearl believes that women should radically submit to their husbands as the head of the house, putting up even with affairs and abuse “without words”. She recounts in her book a letter she received from a woman who was obviously being abused by her husband. What should I do when he comes after me with a knife? She asks. Mrs. Pearl replies: be submissive. “Avoid provoking him.” (UPDATE: for actual quotations about this incident, just read through the comments section of this post).
Hold on a second here.
Do you remember in Philippians 2, when Paul writes of Jesus:
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death —
even death on a cross!
Jesus took the form of a servant. Jesus was humble. Jesus allowed others to spit on Him and revile Him. Jesus allowed others to hurt Him and walk all over Him. And thus, says those like Debi Pearl who believe women should be under men, we should, too.
What if there’s a different way to look at that passage?
The passage does not say “have the same actions as Jesus”. It says, “Have the same mindset“. It’s about your thoughts, your goals, and your attitudes. Here’s what I think was going on, and it can be summed up like this:
Jesus’ Motivation–Jesus’ Action–Jesus’ Result
What was His motivation? To do God’s will and bring people to Him.
What was His action? He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death.
And what was the result? People were reconciled to God.
Yet let’s take this same framework and look at other areas of Jesus’ life:
Motivation: To do God’s will and bring people to Him
Action: Rebuking and Yelling at the Pharisees
Result: People saw the truth of God
Or how about this one?
Motivation: To do God’s will and bring people to Him
Action: Making a Whip out of Cords and Clearing the Temple
Result: People remembered God’s Holiness
Do you see the commonalities? Jesus was always seeking to do God’s will and to bring people to Him. And Jesus’ actions always resulted in people knowing God more, trusting God more, or having more insight into God. At the cross, His actions resulted in people being reconciled to God.
But His actions were not always the same. Sometimes He let others walk all over Him–because that is what the circumstances demanded if He was going to accomplish God’s will and if He was going to bring people to God. Other times He spoke up and rebuked people, or became angry, because that’s what the circumstances demanded. In other words, the commonality was doing God’s will and bringing people to God–the same mindset. The difference was in the actions. Jesus used different actions to accomplish the same purpose as circumstances demanded it.
Paul did the same thing. Sometimes he lay down and let people insult him. Other times he stood up for his rights, appealing all the way to Caesar. He didn’t just “lie there and take it”; he demanded his right to speak the gospel, because that is what circumstances demanded if God’s will to see the gospel spread and people come to know Him was to be accomplished.
There is nothing magical about lying down and being abused. There is nothing inherently beautiful about being walked all over or treated horribly. Yes, Jesus was treated horribly, but He was treated horribly for a purpose. You cannot take one without the other. Does God ask us to submit? Yes. Does God ask us to be abused, used, and discarded? Rarely. There may be times when we have to be treated that way–I think of the believers in some parts of the world who are truly persecuted, for instance. But there is nothing inherently righteous about being treated awfully. In fact, this can become a stumbling block just like any other.
If you think that by being treated miserably you earn brownie points with God, then you are more likely to put up with injustice. You are more likely to see your children hurt. You are more likely to stunt your own purpose and your own gifts. And you are less likely to see the will of God done through your abuser/husband.
Did you catch that last one? Sometimes by lying over and taking it, by putting up with abuse, by allowing marital rape or extreme verbal abuse we actually do the exact opposite of what Jesus tried to do. We don’t point people to God; we point people away from Him.
What is God’s primary vehicle for pointing people to Him? He made it quite clear in Galatians 6:
Do not be deceived; a man reaps what he sows.
If you are preventing your husband from reaping what he sows by allowing him to abuse you with no consequences, then you are putting a stumbling block for God working in your husband’s life. If your husband is engaged in serious sin, and you put up with it and do not bring in a Christian mentor or an elder as we are instructed to do in Matthew 18, then you are also enabling your husband to grow further and further away from God.
This does not mean that God cannot occasionally work in these situations. I can just hear the replies now–but I put up with my husband’s drinking and my husband’s affairs for 15 years, and one day God got a hold of my husband and completely turned him around! Yes, God can do that. But I believe that God did that DESPITE you allowing him to perpetuate sin, not BECAUSE you allowed him to perpetuate sin. And by putting up with it, we let ourselves off the hook, too. We don’t have the responsibility to try to deal with our problems, because we’re supposed to “take it and let God”. We don’t have to wrestle with what we should do. We don’t have the hard questions. We have an easy blueprint for life–squash your own feelings and let others take advantage–and we’re set. And what if God has gifted you as a teacher? Or as an administrator? What if God has great plans for you? Doesn’t matter. You’re supposed to commit yourself totally to your husband, even if that means that he hurts you and drags you down. That doesn’t sound like a God of love to me.
When Paul thought someone was in error, he told him. He went right up to Peter’s face and told him that he was being hypocritical in regards to how Peter was treating Gentiles.
I am not saying that we should make ourselves annoying, or that we should harp on our husband’s every fault. I am also not saying that we shouldn’t be submissive. But there is still a stream in Christian thinking that says, “you are holier when you suffer.” I don’t believe it. I believe that God is with those who suffer, and that God uses suffering. But there is nothing inherently holy about suffering. What is holy is when we pray, submit ourselves to God, and discern what His will is. When we ask God what we should do, and what His purposes are for this situation, and we align ourselves with His purposes, then God works best.
I know this is tricky in real life, because we do need to work out what things to just let slide. We do need to step back and let our husbands lead. We have to let go of the reins. Depending on the comments, this may warrant a follow-up post on how to do that.
But in this post, the main thing I want to stress is please, please, ladies, don’t allow false teaching to tell you that it’s okay if a man beats you, or runs at you with a kitchen knife, or hurts your children. Don’t allow someone else to tell you that you just need to work on being “better”, on being “more Christian”, so that you can win your husband without words. Ask yourself this question instead,
Am I enabling sin? Am I pointing my husband to God, or away from God? Am I honouring God, my husband, and my children by allowing him to treat me like this, or am I hurting us all?
And if you can’t honestly answer that you’re honouring God, then reconsider your actions. Your purpose should always be to follow God’s will, bring Him glory, and bring others closer to Him. How that works out in our everyday lives will differ from situation to situation. But there is nothing inherently holy about abuse, and none of us should think we get special badges for putting up with it.
Do you have any marriage advice for us today? Just leave the URL of your post in the linky below! And make sure to link back here so that other people can read these great marriage posts, too!
Awesome post!
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It isn’t true that Debi promotes putting up with physical abuse. On Page 79 of her book she states~
“Of course, there are a few men who are so cruel and violent that even when the wife is a proper hlep meet, he will still physically abuse her or the children. In such cases, it would be the duty of the wife to alert the authorities so that they might become the arm of the Lord to do justice.”
Lori recently posted..Satisfaction At Home
My impression, Lori, was that she made statements like that because it’s necessary to say that in our society–we need to say that abuse won’t be tolerated. But she pairs it with statements like this: “A Command Man who has gone bad is likely to be abusive. It is important to remember that much of how a Command man reacts depends on his wife’s reverence toward him.” And that seems to be her take: certain men are more likely to be abusive. Whether or not they become abusive depends on how a woman behaves. Therefore, if he is abusive, it is your fault.
That is not godly advice, in my opinion, and lays the blame for abuse at the wife’s feet, even if she does give lip service for involving the authorities. The thrust of her book is to turn yourself completely around so that you become the sort of woman he needs, and the sort of woman who will cause him not to sin. So if he’s having an affair–it’s likely because you did something wrong. If he’s into pornography–it’s likely because you didn’t know how to be a proper wife. That’s what submission means to her: that we turn ourselves inside out so that he won’t sin. But I do not believe that marriage means losing ourselves, and I do not see this as a healthy dynamic in any relationship.
I know some may disagree, but I have known women who have put up with so much in their marriages because they were told that it was essentially their fault. It’s not. I think James Dobson’s Love Must be Tough is a much better book for women in difficult relationships, and I just hope from this post that women won’t feel as if they are to blame when their husbands make bad choices.
I’m not going to say much more on this because my views are clear in the post, and I don’t want to get into any kind of nasty debate. I really do value my readers, all of them, and I know not all agree with me here. I hope that we can agree to disagree, but I just felt it had to be said.
I am fine with disagreeing with you Sheila. I think you are great! The source you linked to, however, doesn’t even give page numbers and blatantly lies about the Pearls. What they say the Pearls wrote is false. I also don’t believe what you wrote in your post is true about the knife. Could you give me the page number?
If you listen to Michael Pearl speak to men, he gives it to them! They never put all the blame on women but they do know the power a woman has to change a man just as Scripture says…”She may win him without a word” and I have seen women winning their husbands without a word over and over again. They never say that a man’s sin is the woman’s fault.
I know many don’t like Debi’s dogmatic tone in her voice and I respect that but I just don’t like untruths being written about them. They are good and godly people who have helped many marriages, including mine.
Lori recently posted..Satisfaction At Home
I honestly don’t like Created to Be His Helpmeet (and I did read the whole thing) mainly because there is a good deal of questionable advice within it. I think the butcher knife story is the story that starts on p 132 and it’s a weird story. The story is about a young girl named Sunny who stupidly married a man she barely knew, got pregnant immediately and then shortly realized that her husband was a drunk, abusive man who did try to kill her with a butcher knife. Sunny then plotted to kill him in a counseling session with her that night, Debi tells Sunny to “make a decision, either to leave Ahmed once and for all and put the pieces of her life back together, or to stay with him and begin a campaign of winning his heart and saving their life together.” She chose to stay with him and a big part of her plan to win him over was to stop “blabbing about his sins”. So the story isn’t really conveyed well, but the really objectionable part of it is that nowhere does Debi counsel the young woman to have the man confronted for his sins and his destructive, abusive behavior. It’s entirely up to the woman to change things. The process described in Matthew 18 is there for a reason – for the purpose of confronting sin – and she could have followed that for her protection instead of making it her responsibility to change his abusive behavior. It isn’t really loving or respectful to allow a man to remain in sinful behavior. Part of the purpose of marriage is to help each other to become more Christlike and while his behavior ultimately did change, by never admonishing him (which believers are called to do to each other) she wasn’t fulfilling her calling as a sister in Christ. It really is loving to speak up and challenge sin. Leslie Vernick talks about this a lot in her book How To Act Right When Your Spouse Acts Wrong.
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Would like more information on the book by Leslie Vernick. How much is it, where can I find it, and so on. Thanks!
It’s $6.99 on Amazon. She also has one called The Emotionally Destructive Relationship: Seeing It, Stopping It, Surviving It but I haven’t read that one to comment on it.
Elizabeth@Warrior Wives recently posted..What I Wish I’d Known About Sex
Thanks for the information! I have written both titles down and will find a way to get both.
I have read The Emotionally Destructive Relationship, and found it very helpful. It is wrong for a man to abuse his wife pr children, especially in the name of Christianity. Getting good boundaries in place, and respecting yourself is where setting things right begins. Ladies, if you are being abused, get some help. One point I would like to add; Though men have the reputation of being the abuser in a relationship, it is not always the case. Men and women are very capable of hurting their partners. The wounds that abusive men cause are very visible. Wounds that abusive or neglectful women cause are not visibly obvious, but can be no less painful. Bottom line, treating ewach other with respect and love, and it starts with treating ourselves with respect and love. God intended marriage to be a good thing, even though the growth required may be painful at times.
Thank you for the article,
Kevin
On page 253 Debi writes about making an appeal-
We decided early in our marriage that when something was so important to me that I had to have it resolved, he would take a step back, stop all his ministry and business, and listen with grave concern and consideration.
She never advises women to ignore or not confront sin in a husband’s life.
Lori recently posted..Satisfaction At Home
I was referring to the story of the woman being chased by the butcher knife…in such a dangerous situation, Debi does not recount telling the woman to confront the man on his sin or bringing some elders to confront the man. She tells her either to leave or to win him over, basically implying that it was entirely up to the wife’s behavior.
I read the entire book, underlined stuff, got a few good points out of it, but I still think it can mislead some women and for that reason, I could never recommend it blindly to everyone. The example from p.253 is not talking about an abusive situation, it’s just talking about a normal situation where the wife needs to talk about something that’s bothering her. There’s obviously a huge difference.
Elizabeth@Warrior Wives recently posted..Words for the Weekend
Oh, and neither does she suggest that maybe Sunny should report the abuse to the police because after all, abuse is illegal. She may say it elsewhere in the book, but I find it really interesting that she doesn’t talk about it in an actual context of a supposedly true story.
Elizabeth@Warrior Wives recently posted..Words for the Weekend
I agree with you Lori. Created to be His Helpmeet saved my marriage. The Pearls are being greatly misrepresented in this article.
Amen! Thank you for this post … I’ve read Ms Pearl’s book myself and while there is some truth in it there is also much that is wrong
I agree with your comment about how commiting to an abusive husband isn’t a command from a loving God. (“You’re supposed to commit yourself totally to your husband, even if that means that he hurts you and drags you down.[?] That doesn’t sound like a God of love to me.”
Isn’t it interesting that God talks about submission of the wife to the husband, and then He follows up with: Eph 5:25 “Husbands, love your wives,*just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her*, ? Husbands are told use Christ’s love for us (the church,) as an example of how to love his wife by seeking to meet the real needs of her, even sacrificially so. After all, Christ DIED for the church. Some would say that husbands have the harder job. To love like that is quite a responsibility! The wife is simply instructed to *respect* the husband. I believe it could be said that the wife would only be required to respect a husband, if he were being a loving husband; I don’t think that physical, mental, or spiritual abuse could be considered “loving.”
Thought provoking post, Sheila!
But, her statement… ” there are a few men who are so cruel and violent that EVEN when the wife is a proper hlep meet, he will still physically abuse her or the children” indicates that she is blaming the wife who is not being a *proper* help-meet. I’m sorry, that is bull-crap! There is absolutely no instance when it is acceptable for a husband to physically abuse his wife.. I don’t care how sassy or unsubmissive she is. A man who is violent needs help. Period. Nobody makes a man hit his wife, he chooses to.
I thought about getting her book until I read the reviews and I am glad to say that I didn’t. I would have been a waste of money, my time and I would have felt even lower than I did (going through a separation). I remember reading the reviews on Amazon.com about how we as wives should submit to our husband and the way they readers describe the book, it was not out of love but more so out of control (of the husband).
After seeing many friends and sisters abused mentally and physically by men, both God-fearing and not, it’s hard to think that always “keeping silent and not provoking” is healthy or godly. Debi does well by writing “…Help Meet.” There are many women, especially in the Christian women’s blogosphere, who swear by her words as if they are infallible. In fact I am also trying to read through “…Help Meet” right now and I’ve honestly learned a lot.
BUT what you write is very important to read and consider. Neither Debi nor Michael Pearl (nor any other author or blogger) are Jesus and/or the author of the Word. So anything you read needs to come back to that. While I appreciate what is to me a new way of thinking (wifely submission), I read every book and blog with a grain of salt. My husband isn’t a “typical Christian man” and neither am I a “typical Christian wife/woman/mother/whatever”. But I seek my husband’s headship as I learn more and more. And he’s perfectly content with that, imperfect as we are. (And I pray thanks for that every day!)
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The site you linked to concerning Michael Pearl’s words is not true. On Page 261 of the book Michael writes ~
“Now, if husbands always ruled their homes in holiness and justice, there would be no need for exceptions to obedience. But, of course, that is not the case, nor has it been the case for centuries on end. In truth, “For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good and sinneth not.” (Ecclesiastes 7:20). Yet God, while acknowledging the fact of man’s sinfulness, nevertheless commands the wife to reverence and obey her husband- tin the Lord. The key, then is for the wife to have the wisdom to know what is within her husband’s sphere of authority, the government’s sphere of authority, the church’s sphere of authority, and God’s sphere of authority – a daunting task for the carnal mind.”
There is absolutely no way the Pearls advocate what you just wrote. I am sorry to disagree with you Sheila, because I rarely do but the Pearls are so often misquoted and demonized by other Christians that I feel the need to speak the truth about them.
Lori recently posted..Satisfaction At Home
“Jesus was always seeking to do God’s will and to bring people to Him. And Jesus’ actions always resulted in people knowing God more, trusting God more, or having more insight into God. At the cross, His actions resulted in people being reconciled to God.”
Well put!!
I am so blessed to have a husband who follows Christ’s example in this.
Very informative. Thanks so much for your ministry!
Jenny recently posted..The Birds, the Bees, and Boys: Teaching Your Boys About Sex — Part 2
I really liked your message today! It’s difficult to figure out the balance between submissiveness and our own worth as a child of God. I think we mostly have to stay close to Christ and listen to Him and He’ll guide us to where we need to be, even when we have to make hard choices.
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“I know this is tricky in real life, because we do need to work out what things to just let slide. We do need to step back and let our husbands lead. We have to let go of the reins. Depending on the comments, this may warrant a follow-up post on how to do that.”
I would love to see a follow up post with your thoughts on that! My husband has a really strong Choleric personality, and I really struggle with being respectful/submissive to that – I always feel a strong urge to stick up for myself because I don’t want to feel like a doormat. But maybe he wouldn’t be so domineering if I were more respectful/submissive?
My husband is the same, and it doesn’t matter how I act, he is just controlling. I walk around the house scared to upset him because mentally he can make it very depressing. I have been waiting on God’s voice, went to Christain counseling and I am just at wit’s end. I do not think the most people actions have anything to do with how you respond to them generally. If they have a strong, angry, controlling personality, it’s coming out.
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I think I’m the opposite. I had a very domeneering and controlling mother, who taught me to be outspoken, and to make a “big deal” when I feel I’ve been mistreated. I’m not trying to lay all the blame on her, but it has been hard for me to understand what “submission” is.
I see girls around me who have read Created to be His Help Meet (I have read it too), and put up with controlling and domeneering husbands, and they seem miserable. I don’t want that for my marriage. I want to be able to tell my husband if something he does is bothering me. I just want to know how to do it in the right way.
I can never decide where the line is between being a doormat wife, and becoming secretly bitter at my husband, because he treats me like a slave (their husbands literally treat them like slaves!) and becoming this woman who whines and complains about “not being appreciated”. I don’t want to be the bossy controlling wife!
So please….a post on submission would be wonderful!
Svetlana, I think I’m more like you–I’m very outspoken, and I’ve often struggled with what submission means. So yes, I will try to write about it this month in Revive Your Marriage!
No one should have to live like that.
Once I learned that I could lay down the idea that divorce was an abomination, my life was much happier. I realized God did not want me continually abused, nor did He expect me to just keep taking it.
After 15 years of trying, counseling, reconciling, keep trying, deep loneliness and verbal, mental, physical and emotional abuse…..I finally filed for divorce and never regretted it. We were married 18 years and 2 days before it was final and while I struggled financially, it was NOTHING compared to the peace that was in my house once that relationship was no longer a part of my daily life. I pretty much had sole custody of the kids and they were able to be teenagers without suffering the wrath of their father.
We seem to get it into our heads that once you are married, there is no changing it when the other does not live up to their end of being at least a decent human being. It’s one thing to divorce because you are weary of ruts or because the other person merely irritates you at times…..it’s quite another to divorce because you can feel yourself literally dying from the toxicity in the relationship.
I just had to decide that my life is finite. Yes, God can work miracles and in wonderful ways, but I don’t have a lot of time here and I don’t think I should have to continually be punished because my choice of mate refused to live up to being the kind of godly man I expected. There comes a time when it just needs to be done.
Oh, and I paid a price, don’t get me wrong, but it was worth it. No regrets.
I’ve been in a place where I was abused in the name of suffering to attain holiness. Looking back, I can see how unhealthy it was and how pointless. What was the point of some of the things we were forced to do??? Those things didn’t bring me closer to God. They left me broken and scarred, angry, emotionally unstable. They left me feeling exploited. How is that Godly? It’s not. I still wrestle with why those things happened to me. Where do they fit in the big picture of my life? But y’know, one thing it did for me was it opened my eyes. I’m far less likely to just blindly submit and get myself into unhealthy situations. I use the brain God gave me to go to Him first.
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Thank you for addressing this issue Sheila! I agree with your post today. Striving to live my life for God and do what He wants me to, despite the rejection from my husband. I love God more than my husband and God will always come first, then my husband and then my child.
If folks are looking for more information about Created to Be His Help Meet (with exhaustive quotes and page numbers) I’ve been doing a blog series that goes through her book chapter by chapter. You can find it at http://natalielorinblogs.blogspot.com/search/label/Created%20to%20Be%20His%20Help%20Meet I haven’t gotten much feedback on the series so far, so I’d love to hear what you fine folks have to say about it
Also, Sheila, there’s a wonderful post by James Jordan that considers how slave wives were treated in the OT. Conclusion – some conservative churches today treat free women worse than slaves were treated. It’s rather enlightening. http://www.hornes.org/mark/2007/10/jim-jordan-comparing-the-modern-wife-to-that-of-the-ot/
Natalie recently posted..Created to Be His Help Meet: Part 2 (Love them chillen’s)
Thanks, Natalie! Great links!
I wanted to say thank you for writing this, I left a marriage almost 5 years ago that I should have left years earlier, because of a husband who had multiple affairs with no remorse. I, too, was under the thinking that it was my job to stay with him because I made a commitment to God and him. Sometimes still, I need to be reminded that I left for the right reasons and it was never in God’s will for me to be constantly hurt in that marriage.
AMEN!!!
mtwildflower recently posted..Beginning The Appeals Process.
I was raised in churches that preached this garbage, and while they did not agree with the Pearls doctrinally, they loved their marriage and parenting books. Regardless of the little quotes you can pull out of the book to prove a point or two, the general tone of Debi’s book is that if you have marital problems, it’s the wife’s fault and she should change herself. The man never does anything wrong (most of the time anyway). I can claim this because I did read her book. From personal experience I can say that you get out of a relationship what you put in it. If you are a nasty, hateful wife, you’ll likely get a not so great response out of your husband. If you are cheerful and kind, your husband will feed of off that and treat you well in return. Thank you for speaking out!
So true! My husband now and I are always at least polite to each other. We may be pretty ticked off, but we have never crossed the line of name calling or personal stabs or say things we know will wound each other to the core. Even when we are upset, we know we love each other completely and we know what our first marriages were like and have NO desire to repeat THOSE!
mtwildflower recently posted..Beginning The Appeals Process.
The point Debi makes in her book (I have read it multiple times) is that the book is written from the aged woman to young women. The book is not directed to men. Michael Pearl has now written a book for men, and I have not read that, but I’m sure, as Debi suggested in her book, that if Michael was talking to men, he would be tough on them. The book is for women, not men… so it’s not going to be telling how to change a man or fix him. The point of the book is do teach women what God, in the Bible, tells us is our responsibility as wives. And I believe she does a great job of finding, illustrating, and backing those points up.
I hear what you’re saying, Misty, although I have some major theological problems with the way that Debi says that we are created from man, and therefore our relationship with God is primarily through him–for instance, here are some quotes from her book:
Tim Challies does a great job of dismantling this argument here.
Women were primarily created to worship God, just like men were. And single women are just as able to do that, and in fact Paul even says it’s better to be single. So to claim that the whole reason for a woman to exist is to fulfill a man’s needs is to discount a woman’s spirituality and her worth in God’s eyes, in my opinion, and is very shoddy theology.
I just want to assure every woman reading this that we are of infinite worth in God’s eyes–with or without a husband, and despite what our husbands do. If our husbands abuse us, that does not mean that we are of less worth. And it does not mean that we are to put up with it.
I guess I’m still really hung up on the fact that Debi didn’t tell a woman who was clearly in danger to leave and protect her unborn child. If Debi didn’t believe she was actually in danger, that’s one thing. But in the book she really made it sound as if this woman was. And that’s very troubling to me.
but it is clear in Scripture in Genesis the reason we are created for….”and God created a helper sutable for him” that is us. If you were to read both books the Pearls have put out, which my husband and I have you would possibly find the balance. Debi would never support a wife staying with a man who would harm her or her children, I think this is a misinterpretation of the book….and also possibly not fair to her. You would have done well to contact her first before making such accusation to get a personal clairification from her.
Shella, I understand, but the fact is that she included in her book the story of a pregnant woman who was attacked by a husband with a kitchen knife. Now perhaps it wasn’t really that bad. Perhaps the wife was exaggerating how much he hurt her or scared her. But the way that Debi wrote that story, it definitely conveyed the picture of a pregnant woman at serious risk of harm by her husband.
And Debi did not call the police. Debi did not tell the woman to leave. Debi gave the woman a choice, and supported her when she stayed.
She can offer all the statements she wants about how she would never condone abuse, and how an abused woman should go to the police. But those statements cannot make up for the fact that in a book that has been read by millions of women, she included a story of an abused woman and DID NOT tell her to go the police or to make sure she and her child were safe.
Even if she now says that she worded it wrong, the fact is that this is what the book says. So the book itself is not a good one for people to read, because it can clearly lead women who are being abused to feel as if they should stay in that relationship.
I have a host of other problems with her philosophy, but that is the biggest one in a nutshell. People keep pointing to statements that the Pearls have made against abuse, and yet in their books they provide stories that do not jibe with their statements. So even if they issue those statements, the fact that they include these stories is extremely problematic to me, and extremely concerning given how many people are reading these books.
I hope you understand. I just don’t think we should take someone coming at a woman with a kitchen knife lightly.
Thankyou for this post, through bibical counseling that I sought I have learned a much better way to be rather than a doormat . We are called to speak the truth in love to our spouses and the world. We are precious to Jesus and are never meant to be harmed. Its a hard pill to swallow knowing that by just burying our head in the sand is enabling our spouses instead of helping them. I used to believe in walking on eggshells if that meant avoiding conflict with my spouse. I was essentially dying inside. Now that I learned a healthy way to deal with conflict and the fact that I nor any other woman has to stay for abuse it makes me more at peace. I have Debi Pearls book as well , Im sure she is a nice person but didnt agree entirely with her book either!
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This issue pricks my heart in particular because I know women who have been in abusive marriages. These battered wives are already blaming themselves and feeling about two inches tall, and then to dump the line that they need to not provoke their husbands is, well, ludricrous. If you’re married to someone who behaves violently, it’s like you’re in a den of lions and you’re being asked to keep them from biting you. Sure, you can stand still and hope for the best, but if they eat you, whose fault is that? They’re carnivorous predators, so of course they’re going to bite! And that’s what a lot of abusive people are like.
I don’t know the Pearls, but as to the message that suffering through an abusive marriage somehow makes you holier, I don’t believe it either. That can become an enabling situation and doesn’t help the abuser in the long run. Get out, get help, get hope that things can be better.
Good job, Sheila.
J (Hot, Holy & Humorous) recently posted..Are "Au Naturale" Destinations Okay?
Exactly, J. Thanks for your comments!
You have brought to light a side of this issue that I hadn’t thought about. My husband has been verbally abusing me for years, and come close to (but not) physically abusing me. In the past few years, he’s started in on verbally abusing our teenage girls. This past week was a doozy, and I’ve been trying to decide if it should be the breaking point. I was raised not to believe in divorce, but I’m tired of being a verbal punching bag! Yes, he’s/we’ve gone through several cycles of counseling before, and he’s been on medication before, but he always quits both as soon as he starts feeling better. We’ve been married over 19 years. I’ve sought the advice of our pastors and 2 close, praying friends, yet I’m no closer to a decision. Part of the hold up is that we’ve called a truce until after our older daughter has surgery this Friday. Talk about stress!!!
Praying for your daughter’s surgery! And praying that God will give you great wisdom and great counsel to get through this. It sounds like there are some major mental illness issues with your husband, and if so, he really needs someone to keep him on his meds if he’s going to be able to be in a stable family. I pray that you’ll find someone to help show him the seriousness of that!
and divorce isn’t necessarily the first jump but getting Godly counseling and a possible seperation with a view to coming back together may be … praying for you!
Seek the counsel of someone who is actually licensed by the state. Your pastoral counseling after 19 years is not bringing resolution. If these leaders were actually helping, they would hold your husband accountable in a tangible way where he would be compelled to make a change and that is clearly not happening.
Not that state counseling will make your hubby comply, but they will counsel with accountability and in my experience the only entity that the “church leadership” are accountable to, is themselves.
It took me a long time to realize that if things were still the same after 15 years in my case, that it was likely not going t change. Even when I kicked my husband out of our home ( we rented from my parents) I waited 10 months before I finally filed for divorce…he had opportunity to make a noticeable and drastic change and he wouldn’t/couldn’t. By then, I was done.
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Thank you for your post today, but I feel more confused than ever. Please, please, please write about knowing that gray line between taking it and stepping up. I wrestle with this issue way too much. I am really trying hard to put up or take some things. Sometimes I feel like I am going through so much because of what I have done before I was married. Almost like its karma and it is my turn to pay. I honestly feel like I will become a better christian by dealing with “things”. I keep telling myself that I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. That verse brings peace. Most of the time when things happen it is b/c I have provoked and pushed to many buttons. Since I have stopped and backed off things have stopped. Am I reading this all incorrectly?
I will pray for your daughters surgery & for this difficult decision you must make!
I was in an abusive marriage for 20 years. We were missionaries in Africa for a decade. My husband pastored. Someone had given us the Pearl’s childrearing books early in our child rearing days and following even just some of those principles in those books was one of the most destructive things that we ever did to our children. We were harsh and cruel, but I believed that if I didn’t do this that my children would stray from God and be lost. What really happened was the opposite. Following these principles pushed them from God.
In terms of our marriage, I was essentially taught that I had to submit, honor, obey without question or again, my children would be lost and my husband would sin, and it would all be my fault for not being “enough”. Even if they try to say that men should behave Godly in a marriage, it is still implied that we are tp blame if they don’t do what’s right. We women are always taught what we should change. I finally took my husband to a marriage counselor and he had us read “…Helpmeet”. This pastor told me that God made no exceptions to unconditional obedience and that if my daughter DIED over his decisions, that I was still to obey and God would honor her death somehow. His office had cases of the Pearl’s books, especially the “…Helpmeet” book and this is what was promoted from it. “God does not want you to be happy. He wants you to be obedient.” I finally realized that it would be sin for me to continue down this path and allow my husband’s sin to flourish so I left. These lies were not TRUTH. I started searching for truth and to find healing for myself and my girls. I realized that I was also sinning by preventing my husband from receiving the natural consequences of his own sins.
Since that time, we have had confirmation that my husband has had affairs with at LEAST two teens girls over the course of our marriage and molested a 5 year old before we had ever met. THAT explains why he was so abusive. It’s his own sin problem but the principles in books like the Pearl’s allow for these perpetrators to flourish and for the victims to suffer and sets the stage for more victims. Praise God for freedom and truth!
Oh my….my heart breaks for women in situations like yours Linda! You are to be commended for getting out, and I hope you can redeem the years that were stolen from you by finding your place in God’s love.
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So glad that you’ve gotten out and can now see clearly, and that your husband’s past actions have now come to light. I agree–too often so-called Christian teaching prevents us from getting help early, when it would have done the most good.
Sometimes freedom is hard fought and hard won, but the hindsight is stellar afterward.
I’m sorry that your now ex husband’s history is what it is. I know that’s hurtful even when you are no longer married.
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Don’t think that it has to be if…then statements. “If I submit more, then he’ll be less domineering.” It isn’t about tit for tat, karma or what have you. HEARTS need to be changed for the Lord. While our actions do have reactions, that doesn’t mean a heart is changed. Being uber-submissive to hubby did reap a change of behavior and softening…for a time, but ultimately it just covered up a hardened heart, and weakened mine.
Swinging from one extreme to the other is not the answer. Giving it all to the Lord and following Him is! He will give us discernment and guidance and ultimately a change of heart for His glory.
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Hey! that is a sad and disturbing picture, I donot like thinking that any of my Chritian sisters endure this type of animal non-christian behavior. NO! NO! NO!! GOD OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN COMMANDED!!! men to LOVE their wives LIKE CHRIST LOVEZZZZZZ THE CHURCH. (thats us! and the women and wives that are BORN AGAIN, WE ARE THE CHURCH. So from rading what GOD SAID A GOOD HUSBANDS REQUIREMENTS ARE, and LOOKING at what JESUS DID and DOES! FOR THE CHURCH. SUBMIT ONE TO ANOTHER LIKE JESUS AND GOD DOES, JESUS AND GOD RESPECT each other:’D
f you are preventing your husband from reaping what he sows by allowing him to abuse you with no consequences, then you are putting a stumbling block for God working in your husband’s life. If your husband is engaged in serious sin, and you put up with it and do not bring in a Christian mentor or an elder as we are instructed to do in Matthew 18, then you are also enabling your husband to grow further and further away from God.
AMEN! Yesterday I got into quite a disagreement with someone who had posted a trite little quote on Facebook about “never EVER” saying anything bad about one’s husband. I disagree strongly. While I think it is wrong and disrespectful to be talking indiscriminately about our husband’s failings…this friend only grudgingly conceded “well if the husband is being abusive the wife can seek outside counsel. I specifically brought up Matthew 18 as being a process that needs to be kept in mind with our husbands–and it shouldn’t just take “abuse” to involve outside counsel.
I would encourage those who are commenting here in support of Debi Pearl’s book to read the very thorough review of it that was done here: http://www.challies.com/book-reviews/created-to-be-his-help-meet This review covers Mrs. Pearl’s fitness (or lack there of) to be a TItus 2 mentor, covers theology, and looks at specific problems with Biblical interpretation in the book.
Knitted in the Womb recently posted..Does the Bible Declare That Childbirth is Meant to Be Excruciating?
Thanks for the link to that review! It’s great. Just read it.
I only agree about the part of bringing an church leader …to a point.
It’s one thing if we are talking about sin and we call in a pastor or elder to help us deal with spiritual matters on that level. It is a whole ‘nother ball of wax to call upon an elder when there has been a CRIME committed.
Physical abuse of spouses and children is a crime and the police need to be brought in at that point. Churches are by and large not AT ALL equipped to handle the crime of physical abuse nor are they equipped to deal with emotional, verbal or mental abuse, either. Assaulting, berating, humiliating, using fear as a tool for control…..all these are CRIMES and not a spiritual issue alone.
Too many times, I have seen pastoral and leadership counseling that centers around the victim’s forgiveness and the victim’s repentance for being SLOW to forgive. There is no justice served, there is no accountability. Much of the counsel is EXACTLY about the victim “not provoking” the perpetrator more than it is about confronting the perpetrator and holding him/her accountable beyond church walls, for their behavior.
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Very true! There are times when legal authorities are definitely more appropriate than spiritual!
Knitted in the Womb recently posted..Does the Bible Declare That Childbirth is Meant to Be Excruciating?
Oh yes. Thank you. This post is so needed.
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I agree with J from Hot, Holy & Humorous. This issue pricks my heart because I was one of the children whose parents read the book “To Train Up a Child.” Unfortunately my mom used that as her “reason” for beating me every day with a broom handle. She was an adult, and I was a child, and she would hit with wood until SHE (the adult) was tired from the exertion. She said she was trying to “break my spirit of rebellion.” Was I perfect? Oh no! I even to this day recognize that a spanking would have been an appropriate parental way to train me…but an adult hitting a child every day with a broom handle until the adult is tired? No! That is FAR from appropriate!
I don’t know the Pearls, and to be honest I doubt their message was “beat your child until you are physically tired from hitting so much”…but unfortunately that is the message that some people heard and followed! And what does this teach children? That abuse by someone who “loves you” is to be expected. To understand abuse and be more comfortable with that than with healthy interaction. To accept abuse as what is “normal.” I do believe that as a nation we have an “instant” mentality and give up on our marriages MUCH TOO QUICKLY, but I do not believe that accepting abuse is the answer. Suffering through an abusive marriage does not somehow makes you holier.
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Actually, Cindy, many parents have taken that to be the Pearls’ message exactly. And they do certainly believe in beating children to “break the spirit of rebellion”, as you said. I find it truly horrific, and I am so glad that you emerged on the other side, and have still hung on to God.
Thanks, Sheila! I’ve seen enough women beating themselves up, shutting down, and not engaging with the problems in their marriage to be very leery of such, “well just be better” advice. Oh, and If anyone is interested, I’ve been doing a series on Created to Be His Help Meet. over at my blog. Just click on the book title in my tag cloud.
Natalie recently posted..Created to Be His Help Meet: Part 2 (Love them chillen’s)
Just read through your post on sex-ed and think we may have a few thought processes in common.
Bookmarked to read the help-meet series later. Thanks for posting.
Just read through a bunch of Natalie’s posts, too. Great blog! Great thinker.
I personally hate all of Debbies books & don’ agree with any of them. I believe she has a lot of false & damaging teaching. My husband says a better title for her book is “Created to be His Door Mat” & I agree. You see he came from a home that ‘is Debbies book’ & has seen the results of her theory first hand & how they do not work & destroy the woman. She becomes a door mat & beaten down with no self respect or self worth, etc…. His mom was everything that that book says woman should be & do & it was a very unhealthy, unhappy, non functioning marriage. Marriage is two ways not just one way–His way! After we got done with the book (yes he read it too) we burned it.My husband said, “It’s no use that crap getting into someone else’s hands & screwing up them & their marrige.” I’m so thankful for a Godly, Christian, caring husband who wants a fulfilling happy marrige for both of us & not a selfish & all about him marriage. Husbands are comanded to luv their wives & yes wives are to submit to their husbands but when he is involved in an affaire or being abusive we must NOT look the other way! It is sin & you must stand for the right. Don’t forget the Bible also says you must obey God rather than man (& that means even if it’s you husband). God always ‘trumps’ your husband.
THe story about the knife is most definitely in the book–towards the end. Debi makes the whole thing out to be the ultimately the wife’s fault and under her control. The Pearl’s advice on submission in the face of abuse is at best inconsistent, and at worst dangerous. I was on a forum where this book was revered and no matter what objections I raised to it there always seemed to be someone implying that it was THE holy way to submit. I believe fully in my husband’s headship of our home. I also believe I am his sister in Christ and am not to allow him to break the law. That is not being his helper, that is being his enabler.
Well said, Stephanie. The knife story is about a woman named Sunny and her husband Ahmed. When Sunny told Debi Pearl about the knife incident, Pearl gave her two choices: leave, or decide to stay & stop complaining. Sunny chose to stay.
Yes, Pearl did give her choice to leave. But she never said, “I am going to call the police for you”, which is what I would have done had a pregnant woman told me that story. She says we’re allowed to call the police, but in this case she went along with it when a woman chose the opposite route. That’s really scary to me.
Shelia, I’m so glad that you wrote this.
(Disclaimer- for a potentially incendiary comment.) I will admit that I’ve never read any of the Pearls’ books. And I will admit that this question is related to the idea that their views on submission tend toward abuse. Having not read their writings, I have no opinion as to whether this is actually true.
Do you (or does anyone) know whether either of the Pearls have ever commented on Battered Woman’s Syndrome? American criminal courts have started to consider it as a defense to a charge of murder or (I think) battery, saying that a battered woman may be so emotionally and physically beaten down by a partner that she lives in constant fear and imminent danger of abuse. If she lashes out and assaults or even kills her partner, it can be considered to have been done in self-defense, even if her attack was not imminently proceeded by a violent attack by that partner. There are both psychological and economic reasons to explain why most women in these situations wind up staying with their partners- either they could not make it alone financially, or all of their relationships have had this sort of abuse.
I ask because it is clear that the Pearls are often brought under fire for permitting abuse in relationships, and psychology (and even the law) are coming out with these very strong statements on just how debilitating it is to live under such abuse. I wonder if they’ve ever recognized the condition or spoken out against the extremes.
I don’t know for certain, but I do know that the Pearls have said that mental illness isn’t real. So I would suspect that they would feel the same way about Battered Women’s Syndrome or really any PTSD.
So slightly off base but as someone who has read (and been blessed by) the Helpmeet book but has not ever read the Train Up a Child book I’m curious if you don’t believe in any form of spanking as discipline since the Bible mentions the “rod of correction” etc? Just curious what your thoughts on that are (if you’re comfortable with sharing them) Always good to hear other people’s opinions and since I respect yours I’m interested in hearing more!
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Perhaps I should write a longer post on spanking, too. We never spanked our girls. Never needed to. If we had had boys, perhaps we would have. I don’t think spanking is necessarily wrong, but I do think that we need to realize that discipline is the aim, and spanking is not the only, or even necessarily the best, form of discipline. I think a consequence which matches the action is much better. If they fight over a toy, they lose a toy. If they leave stuff lying around, they lose it for a week. If they talk back to their sister, they have to do her chores and then apologize. Etc. Etc. From the studies I’ve read, spanking is most effective when done to children under 6. Over 6, and it can have long-term consequences (not necessarily, but it can). And it can have more damaging repercussions for girls than for boys. I think sometimes the reason that studies are contradictory is that they compare apples to oranges. It’s one thing to spank a toddler who can’t understand other forms of punishment yet, and it’s another to spank an 11-year-old girl almost in puberty on her bare bum.
Again, I don’t think it is wrong. I just think you need to know your own child and what works best with them. For a very social child, a time out is probably far harder than a spanking (and indeed, my own daughter once asked for a spanking instead of a time out because she couldn’t bear the thought of being without me and her sister for five minutes). It was the only time I ever spanked her!
I have a son, he is 8. I have never spanked him. He’s a pretty easy going kid. I do think though that some kids DO need to be disciplined by spanking. Each of us can raise our child(ren) as how we see fit.
Yes, I would agree. I’ve always thought that if I had had different children, we would have used different discipline techniques.
I would love to see a post on child-rearing as well. Almost all the people I’m surrounded by are To Train up a Child persons. And I don’t want to end up beating my 13 mo old.
But I also realize, she’s been throwing tantrums a lot to get her way, and trying to hit people when she is angry.
And book suggestions, or posts on disciplining a tot would be wonderful.
We used the series of Growing Kids God’s Way and I would highly recommend it. Excellent, Biblical principles!
Personally, I really like the materials from the National Center for Biblical Parenting. They have the most balanced approach I’ve seen (and I’ve read a bunch of parenting books)…focusing on the heart paired with some really practical strategies to put into place. In talking about discipline, I know they frequently refer to “The Toolbox” and how you have lots of tools for disciplining and it’s a matter of learning how to use each one appropriately. They also have a series of books, one for each stage of childhood from babies, to toddlers to preschoolers, and I think beyond (but my oldest is a preschooler so I honestly didn’t pay much attention to the older stuff).
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Does Jesus spank you with a plumbing supply line when you sin and don’t submit or allow Him to break your spirit? Does Jesus walk around in your presence with that supply line, draped around your neck for you to see as a way to make you fear HIm when you complain about being hungry or thirsty or tired or act in negative ways when you are not at your best?
No? That’s what the Pearls advocate.
On the No Greater Joy Ministries webpage, there is a comment on the left about Michael Pearl and his qualifications regarding child rearing. His qualifications? He’s raised five kids. He has no degree in child development or counseling or any of the sort, he’s qualified because he’s raised five kids.
Well, if that’s the case, I’m a freaking expert because I have EIGHT kids.
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I miswrote….the plumbing supply line is draped around the parents neck….not the child’s, to be a reminder of a parent’s authority.
mtwildflower recently posted..Beginning The Appeals Process.
I think what the Pearl’s peach in their books are downright dangerous. They have no formal education. They are not experts in child development, child psychology, or marriage and family. Women should not stay in unhealthy situations (be it physical or emotional abuse). Children should, in my opinion, never be spanked. But certainly, not with a belt, stick, or plumbing supply line.
Bible does talk about using the “rod” on our children(“the rod and reproof give wisdom” and so on)”. and I think that there are applications to spank, but a parent needs to do it in love, not in anger and abuse. God is Love but he is also Just and will repremand us when we need it. Proverbs 13:24 “Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.”
“18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. 19 For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. 20 For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God. 21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. 22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. 23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. 1 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3 Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— 4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. 5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening. (1 Peter 2:18 – 3:6).
Either the bible means what it says or it doesn’t. The LIKEWISE in chapter 3 is directly referencing the UNJUST suffering of servants and Christ. Speak the truth in love. Bring in witnesses to confront sin. Obey God rather than your husband when there is a contradiction. However, the submission spoken of in 1 Peter 3 includes unjust suffering. Reject the bible if you wish, but that’s what it says. If you decide to leave, pay attention to 1 Corinthians 7:10-11. What might be intended by those who seem so resistant is not to submit to the abuse itself as if it’s okay or good, but to endure it while pursuing God and being willing to speak the truth in love and confront sin according to Jesus’ guidelines and only leave as a last resort if there is no repentance. But there is no verse in the bible that says it’s okay to be a rebellious wife if your husband sins.
I really understand your point, and you had my sympathy up until the last sentence when you started taking about a rebellious wife in the context of this post.
How is it being a rebellious wife if your husband has multiple affairs and you choose to leave? Even Jesus said that was okay. How is it being a rebellious wife if your husband beats you or the kids and you decide to protect yourself and your children? How is it being a rebellious wife if your husband watches porn and wants to act out things with you while he’s watching it, and you say no? This is what we’re talking about here. Leaving does not equal rebellion. It really depends on what’s happening. And sometimes a separation is the best thing you can do for a marriage, and a man. So please don’t throw the word “rebellious” around in this context; I don’t think it’s helpful.
And let’s keep in mind that when Peter was speaking to slaves, he was speaking to people who had no choice. Likewise, when he was speaking to wives, he was also speaking to people who had no choice. In the Roman world, husbands had the right to kill their wives. Paul himself stood up for his rights when he needed to. We have to consider that context when we read these passages. When we look at this, we also say today, in the 21st century, that slavery is wrong. And yet we agree with this passage: if you are a slave, and you don’t have a choice, then act with dignity within that role. That is what Peter is talking about. For centuries these passages were used to justify slavery, and yet we know that that was not what God intended.
Yes, there are times when we go through unjust suffering–like the persecuted Christians I mentioned. And Peter was writing about two particular kinds of unjust suffering: slaves and women who may be abused. But that is not the ideal. And the key thing here is our hearts: God is saying, what is your heart like in every circumstance, even the difficult ones? That’s the point in my post. It isn’t the suffering itself that earns us brownie points; it’s our hearts.
So if we’re allowing ourselves to suffer and be doormats in a situation which is not what God would intend, then we aren’t really pursuing God’s will; we’re pursuing suffering for the sake of suffering, and that’s a problem.
It is not rebellious to stand up for yourself. We are created with dignity. We are created in the image of God. We are also adults, not children. Your husband cannot tell you what to do. Indeed, nowhere does it say that a husband should tell his wife what to do. It is a woman’s choice to submit, not a husband’s role to make her. If he makes her, or begins to order her around, then he is also being rebellious. A husband is told to love his wife as Christ loved the church; a wife is told to submit. A husband is not told to command his wife around, or to tell her what to do. We have the choice to submit; but he should not make that choice for us.
“Speak the truth in love. Bring in witnesses to confront sin. Obey God rather than your husband when there is a contradiction … only leave as a last resort if there is no repentance.”
I believe the above statements addressed your concerns. However, leave does not equal divorce/remarry (1 Corinthians 7:10-11).
Rebellious wife if your husband sins examples: I won’t have sex with you because you yelled at me/watched porn/aren’t following God like you should, I’m going out with my friends despite what you say because you ___, I’m going to give this money to my family anyway – you’re just selfish, etc.
@ J, I see you have a warped view of what submission is just from the examples you provide, but you, like many others have been suckered in to believing what submission is NOT. It never ceases to amaze me at how these churches can even turn women against themselves. Now that’s powerful! But Scripture is not ridulous. Let the spirit of the Lord guide you and not men and their man-crafted ways of thinking. It will make for a much healthier life.
I meant “ridiculous” – typying too fast without proofing!
This would be my take, too, but the problem is (and I think this is where my follow up post will focus), guiding by the Spirit is scary. There aren’t cut and fast rules. There isn’t a big to do list of “when you do this, you’re doing right, but when you do this, you’re not”. Living by the Spirit isn’t a to-do list; it means constantly staying in touch with God so that you can sense His will. And that is downright scary. I think many people would rather have a rigid way of living, with lots of rules. But Jesus instead gave us grace and love. That obviously doesn’t mean that we have free reign–”be holy, for I am holy”, God says. But it does mean that we aren’t living to rules, we’re living to God. And that’s not always a safe place to be, because you can sometimes feel like you’re floundering. What do I do? What does God want me to do? And the fact is that what He wants you for you may not be what He wants for your sister, or your best friend, or your daughter, because He loves us all individually. So that’s why I find this topic of submission difficult. I think it’s much more a matter of the heart than it is rigid rules, and when people ask me, “Yes, but what does it mean? What should I do?”, the only answer I have is to go sit at the feet of Jesus more. And that’s not always what people want.
I’m afraid that your comments sounds like a woman who has not understood that the reference is to victims in an abusive relationship. The examples you give are not of an abusive situation. Please try and assume your views and comments towards a wife married to a drunk and physical abuser. Who has broken her many limbs, heart and spirit. Who abuses her as often as he feels like with no reason required, just a few drinks. Who has failed to respond to years of loving pleas, patience, intervention, prayer and confrontation. This is about ABUSE!
Thank you Sheila for the post, insights and compassion.
Thanks for clearing up what you meant by rebellious wife. That’s very helpful. I think the problem is that from the context of your initial post, you made it sound like a rebellious wife is one who leaves, and of course, there may be very legitimate reasons for leaving (including protecting children).
You hit the nail on the head with this one!
J
My ex husband not only beat the snot out of me on a regular basis, he forced unnatural sex acts on me and would beat me again if I did act like I enjoyed it. Forget about refusing…..I remained in that marriage for 5 long, painful years.I did everything I could to keep him happy… I lost 4 children because of the beatings. I was verbally put down for everything. Nothing I ever did was good enough. If it was cloudy and he wanted to work outside, it was my fault, and I bore the consequences. When I disagreed with his raising Pot in our bedroom closet, he broke my nose, 4 ribs and blacked both my eyes. He then lit a cigar and put it out (after relighting it several times) all over my body. There were 45 burns over my body including my private parts. He put a loaded gun in my mouth and promised me he’d pull the trigger if I didn’t ‘mind’ him. There was a third person there now for our ‘sex.’ Now you explain to me how I was rebellious when I finally told him I loved him but get out of MY house. (Yes, it was my house before we got married and it was my house after our divorce!) I gave him 30 days to find a place to live, after changing the locks on the extra room, helped him move into his apt, went by every single night to cook and clean for him if he was not drunk/high. After 6 months, I asked him again to go to counseling with me and he refused. I asked him if he was happy, he said sure, he had sex with whomever he wanted whenever he wanted and didn’t have to put up with me. I filed for divorce that week. I found out during the divorce (he wanted to take the house from me and wanted half of my retirement) he’d been having affairs with both women and men while we were married, that he had a horrible drug habit, and I’d already learned he had a drinking problem. So how do you figure I was a rebellious wife??????? Thru it all, it was only my faith that kept me alive and functioning in a semi normal way. I’ve read part of the Pearl’s book, and had to throw it away. It made me ill. I was created in the image of the Creator of the Universe. I was and am a person of worth! I do not now nor did I EVER deserve to be treated like such trash and NOWHERE does my Father’s word say I should be treated that way or that I should have to just change myself to humor someone who acts like such a twit. I respect your right to believe the way you do…..but until you’ve walked in my shoes DO NOT judge my actions and call me a rebellious wife! Too many times battered wives stay quiet to keep from being judged by others who really don’t have a clue what’s going on. I was able to cover the bruises, burns, make up stories for the black eyes and cover most of the pain I was suffering for a very long time(years) because I didn’t want to be “that divorced woman”, that “woman who left her husband who’s so charming and sweet”. Eve was created from Adam’s rib to be a part of him. To be treated as bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. My ex seems to have forgotten that part. And J, your words were hurtful and showed a lack of understanding for those living thru that kind of hell. That’s not what our Father would have thought or taught. Please reconsider the harshness of your words. You do not draw anyone to Father with harsh words….
Anonymous, I’m so glad that you came through that horrific experience still being able to cling to the Father, with love in your life. That is a true testimony of His grace. And you were created in His perfect image, and He does want you to live a full life. I hope that you are starting to experience that now!
From what I read, the murderer parents were sentenced to 22 and 12 years of prison. That is just not enough. I find it hard to believe that the whole fault falls on one stupid book. Can’t the parents think for themselves? Did they have to follow every instruction without reason? The fault is their own.
Even if this is a difficult topic, I want to ask something related: how do you find that balance between submission and your own rights and worth. What is enough? What is OK? What is expected as a wife?
recently, on another blog there was a story about a wife who warmed up the car every morning for her husband. When I was a kid, my mother had her friends over at our house and while I was enjoying potato chips, I overheard them making fun of a friend who did exactly that. My mother said she was silly and undervalued herself. I listened hard and promised myself I would never do that when I was married. And now I keep reading about submission and serving your husband. And maybe I should be doing more than keeping the house and cooking for him and ironing his shirts and raising our boy. Where is the line? I feel so confused.
Gabby, I truly think submission is far more a state of mind than it is a list of things to do. For some people, it may include warming up the car for him. Others may not even get up in the morning when he does because they need their sleep, and can care for their families better in another way. I think when we start making lists of behaviours we run into trouble. I think it’s more an attitude than a set of actions, but I’m sorry that doesn’t help much.
“Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands” Eph. 5:22
I would take this to mean that we are all individual women, with individual men in our lives, and what submission looks like to one couple will look different to another couple. For example, I cringe sometimes when I hear what other wives have to do for their husbands (nothing abusive, just things that I would never be able to tolerate in my husband) but I don’t have to obey their husbands, only my own. My husband by nature is a quiet leader, and never lays down the law, but I instinctively know what he wants from me. It is up to me as a “submissive” wife to find out what MY husband needs and do my best to care for him. If it means that he wants his car warmed up every morning, I, in love, should do this for him. My husband for instance, needs to have a home cooked meal on the table when he gets home from work everday. He has never demanded this of me, I just know this is how he ticks and so I make sure to have his meal ready for him. If your man is beating you to make you warm the car every morning, you should leave him. But if you just know that he really appreciates getting into a warm car to drive to work, then by all means, do it. Serving your husband in love is a completely different thing than being forced to do something against your will. Just my two cents.
For me, my heart of submission is shown when I turn my husband’s socks right-side-out to fold them (after they come all the way through the laundry inside-out). I rarely feel called/led to serve him his dinner, warm up his truck, pack his lunch for work… But long ago the Spirit nudged me, “Respect your husband. Fold his socks nicely, regardless of how you feel, regardless of whether he deserves it. Do it for Me.”
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Jesus submitted to torture and abuse to further the cause of being the sacrifice for this world–the Lamb of God. In turn, we are told we might be persecuted for the cause of Christ and that we are to turn the other cheek for our witness. But we are also given recourse for wrongs being done to us–take them before witnesses, then the church, then turn them out into the world to suffer their consequences there, praying they will return and repent. Both are Biblical, but different situations require different actions. A defenseless wife or child being beaten requires intervention. To say that saying a woman might need the help of authorities to protect her life or he lives of her children is to reject what the Bible says is to also reject that we are given Biblical ways of “confronting a brother”.
Oh, Stephanie– it is always okay to protect a life by calling the authorities, especially if a child is involved! There is no rejection there. Jesus always took up for the children, the meek and the broken. The confronting of a brother can happen when everyone has taken a breath and the threat has been disseminated.
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I think I had to be unclear there–calling the authorities OR confronting a brother, whichever is the more appropriate at the time. Yes, a life being threatened is always a cause for calling the authorities. Abuse of a minor is under the authority of the government, where it can punish evil, just as the Bible says is its job.
Thank you for clarifying, Stephanie. As I read through all of the comments, I was overwhelmed with sadness and it is possible I misread your remarks. Blessings, sister!
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I totally felt the same way, Christie!
Regardless of where you fall on the Pearl debate (I am not a fan), I think we need to hear Sheila’s conclusions.
Jesus’ actions were different in different situation … guided by his desire to do the Father’s will and bring people to God. There was no “always lay there and take it principle.” God expects us to be thinking people. To listen to Him and do what honors Him. That might mean turning the other cheek or it might mean braiding a whip.
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Thanks, Lori!
Ephesians 5 is such a blessing to us. Verses 18 – 21 tell us to unrestrained the will of the Lord in verse 17. Submit yourselves, one to another in the fear of God.
Verses 22-24 tell the wives to submit and adapt to their own husbands and why.
Verses 25-33 give a man no room to abuse his wife. She is to be loved as Christ so loved the church and gave Himself for it. The husband is to sanctify his wife with the washing of water by the Word, read Bible Study and prayer time. Men need to love their wives as they love themselves, which may explain some abuse from men who have no love for themselves, we are to cherish our wives. We are considered one flesh in the eyes of God. Every man, in particular, is to so love his wife. Then the wife is to reverence or respect her husband.
I can see no reason what so ever, where a man is to beat or abuse his wife. You do not abuse what or who you love. If we follow Christ’s example, we give ourselves for our wives.
Once again, leaving or confronting does not equal rebellion. We are not talking about a wife who wants to give money away or go out with friends. We are talking about someone who is trying to escape abuse. To equate one with the other is marginalizing abuse.
Shelia, I usually very much agree with your posts but you are really off base about the Pearls. Have you actually read the whole books that you mention? (Helpmeet and To Train Up a Child) I have read all of their books and get their magazine monthly. They do not in any way encourage child abuse or domestic violence. The fact that all of their children are walking with the Lord and are raising their children to walk with the Lord is proof that their parenting was not abusive. Their children – at least from what I read and know of them – are kind, stable people who have created other small businesses and are blessing people with their lives. Again, proof of the Pearls success.
The Helpmeet book literally saved my marriage. I have read it at least three times and have taught it as a Bible study at a Christian university. In our culture women need to learn a Godly form of submission. The book shows us how to do that.
I have a degree in education and have taught for almost 20 years. I am earning a Master’s degree in Educational Leadership, write for an online newspaper and have my own blog. I am not a sheltered, uneducated follower of the Pearls.
Maria, we can certainly agree to disagree on this one! But I’d just point you to these passages. First, on page 132, Debi tells the story of Sunny and Ahmed:
After detailing all the beatings, Debi then told about this incident where he tried to kill his pregnant wife with a butcher knife. Then later on in Chapter 13, she says this:
She appears to be saying that the fault for the beatings is that Sunny is blabbing about the marriage to other people. Honestly, Maria, if a friend came to you and said that her husband was repeatedly beating her, while she was pregnant, and that he had come at her with a kitchen knife, would you not tell her to get out and call the police?
The Pearls on their website, and in the book, say that we should call the police when we are being abused. But here’s a black and white case of abuse, and she things an acceptable outcome is for Sunny to go home and say nothing bad about her husband anymore. What if he beats her again?
I think this story is very scary, and may give many women who are being abused, and who read this book, the idea that the abuse is their fault, and that if they simply become the perfect wife the abuse will stop. Given what we know about the damage to kids of watching their mother being beaten up, I cannot see how this could ever be good advice, let alone godly advice. And I guess that’s just where I’m coming from.
Oh, and I will also quote this statement of Michael Pearl’s from his website. Now granted, Debi didn’t say this, but I think it’s instructive:
So basically, if there are no discernible marks two hours later, you aren’t to do anything. (and spanking should leave discernible marks two hours later, too, according to him). What about internal injuries? And the rest of it sounds really, well, creepy to me. God loves marriage, but rather than erasing boundaries, I really suggest that people who are struggling in this area read Townsend and Cloud’s book Boundaries, or Boundaries in Marriage. Both are great, and are a much better and safer look at the topic.
I HAVE read both of those books, not knowing anything about them and genuinely lookin for good advice about marriage and raising children. After I read the books I was left with a sad, uneasy feeling about the harshness of Debi’s tone and with which we were advised to treat out children. We DO spank. We also use other forms of discipline. I could not dream of repeatedly “spanking” my child with a rod 8-10 times (per Michael’s instructions) to gain their submission and, if I did not, doing it all over again until I saw submission in them. This is where people get the idea to beat their children to death. No, the Pearls do not say “beat your child to death if necessary” but they do give instructions on spanking until the child submits. If the child is worn out by such spanking, they may not even be able to do anything, much less give an appropriate response to their parents, possibly bringing on more “spanking”. We briefly used the Pearl’s advice. I have spanked our son only to receive a response of lathing after he was spanked. He would get another one. Still more laughing. It makes me cry out “Lord, forgive me!” when I think about he fact that all the while, my son was autistic and could not give me an appropriate response. To this day, he still laughs sometimes when he is upset or nervous. I wish I could erase those memories from my head!! If I had not listened to what must have only been the Holy Spirit and stopped doing that instead of listening to the Pearl’s staunch advice…..I can see how children can be harmed. Babies and toddlers are not able to give proper reactions. These the children the Pearl’s advocate spanking in that manner. If they say something different on their website, they do NOT say it In their book. Likewise, Debi’s advice to wives can only be construed as blaming the wife for the husband’s sin. Wives should be what they should be–helpers to their husbands, building husbands up and not tearing them down, not gossipers, not lazy, trying to win unbelieving husbands with their conversation, etc. wives are not off the hook here. But nothing justifies abuse. The husband is fully responsible for his actions and it should never even be implied that the wife made him do it, just like he doesn’t make her tear him down or gossip about him because he sins (going to a pastor or authorities about being abused is not gossip). Never EVER should a wife be counseled to “shut up and praise” her homicidal husband.
Thanks for sharing your story, Stephanie. I’m so glad that you had that Holy Spirit moment with your autistic son. And can I say something to you? You still obviously feel a lot of guilt for what you did, but you know, I’d really turn it into praise. That’s amazing–think about it. God loved you and your son enough that when you started down a wrong road, thinking it was a godly one, He stopped you. He didn’t stop you because He was angry at you and wanted you to feel guilty. He stopped you so that He could rescue you and your son from a different kind of bondage. I think the story that you’ve told is one of God’s provision, not one of your failures. And so I’d try to see it in that light!
I should clarify, I would not dream NOW of spanking in that manner. For a few days back 7-8 years ago, we did discipline the Pearl way.
If anyone is interested in an alternative to “Created to be His Help Meet”, may I suggest Martha Peace’s “The Excellent Wife”? Having read both books, I think “The Excellent Wife” does a better job of explaining a wife’s Biblical role and responsibility to love, respect, and submit to her husband. Furthermore, she does so without condemning, either in word or tone, those of us who must work outside the home. She also devotes an entire chapter (14) to resources God has designed to protect women. You can find the book on Amazon for about $10.
I have read the Helpmeet book and got good insites out of it, but found the Saced Marriage and Sacred Influence by Gary Thomas hit the mark betterdor me. We have to remember that EVERY MARRIAGE and couple is different and God’s plan sometimes years to see it. Your post Sheila hit a cord with me also and have spent many days praying over how it spoke to me. I too have lived in a stressful marriage and have many strugglesas many have said and shared here, this post has been most helpful, thank you everyone for sharing and giving a opinion.
You are right on today, Sheila! I have not read the books that you have talked about here, but they sound very scary to me! The best views of respect and submission that I have read about comes from Mark and Grace Driscoll’s book, “Real Marriage” and Lisa Bevere’s “Fight Like a Girl”. We need to be strong WOMEN! We need to live in our God given roles with confidence. God made us as helpers to our husbands, and that means being his friend and helping him to be a Godly man. The type of submission that you are talking about here only enables men to do bad, wrong, and hurtful things. And in turn, the women take on this “poor me”, victim mentality. I hate that! This breaks the heart of God! I believe in submission, and that my husband is the head of our home. Do I always want to submit? No. Do I sometimes have to hold my tongue? Yes. I want to have a glorious relationship with my husband. I want us both to be the best person that God created us to be! I love marriage. It’s all about learning and growing together. Becoming better people together. The two are one. I do not see this in the things you have talked about today and in the comments of others! I’m shocked actually.
Thank you, Sheila. I have never thought of it like that before.
Sheila, I am so thankful for the boldness you have displayed in this post. It seems that several people have missed the point that you were trying to make. Rather than defending the Pearls, it would be more beneficial to consider that there is a REAL problem in the Christian (and I assure you that I am using that term loosely) community that either accepts women and children being abused or they bury their heads in the sand about the issue. Women, children, nor men, for that matter, should ever be abused by those that they love. Martyrs suffer for the cause of Christ, preaching or declaring the Word of God. Being abused by your spouse is NOT being a martyr. People should NOT be abused or tolerate it simply for the sake of “taking it”.
I was in a physically and emotionally abusive marriage for over twenty years. “Christians” kept telling me to “pray harder, Sister”. Or “Sister, read your Bible more”. Never did any of them tell me that the abuse was wrong. (Neither did they confront my husband.) The solution was for me to be better and the situation would get better. Guess what! It did NOT. It got worse through the years. My daughter watched and saw things that most adults have not experienced. Those events will be etched in her mind forever. Towards the end of the marriage, he turned his anger towards her. We left two years ago and didn’t look back. One of my many regrets is that even though he didn’t abuse her in the beginning, she saw me being abused. It has warped her view of what a godly marriage should look like.
Dear, dear lady, if you are being abused, GET OUT!!!! NOW!!!! Or call the police and have them make him leave. In many counties there are Victim Advocates who will walk with you through the legal proceedings and be there for you for all the confusing stuff. They will even help you find a safe place to live with your children. They will help you find a job. LET them help you. If he wants to reconcile, stay OUT of the house until you KNOW that he has changed. This will not be in days. It will be in MONTHS. Do NOT succumb to the temptation of wanting to make things easier and go home. Go to counseling. Intense counseling. Pray. A lot. SEEK GOD’S WILL; NOT MAN’S. Yes, God hates divorce. He also hates abuse. Leaving does not necessarily equal divorce. It equals boundaries. Seek the Holy Spirit’s guidance.
I also want to say that one of the reasons that I stayed for as long as I did was that I was scared. Financially, emotionally, spiritually, relationally with my daughter. I was terrified. The day that my daughter and I left, we packed what we could take in one trip and had about $200 in the bank. We had did not have a place to stay, she still had to be enrolled in a school, we needed groceries, and the list goes on and on of the challenges we faced. BUT!!! GOD!!! He intervened and provided EVERYTHING I needed and most of what I wanted. He gave us food, money, deposits for the water to be turned on at the apartment that He provided, a great school, even someone to organize the apartment for me while I was at one of my two jobs working. I was overwhelmed at how He GREATLY provided. I was a proud person, stubborn and resistant to asking for help. But as soon as I let it be known that I needed help, the generosity of folks poured in. I worried that people would judge me for leaving. BUT they prayed for me. Of course there was a few who didn’t support me. But honestly I will never be able to put into words what God did for my daughter and me those two years. Ultimately my husband did not take the steps to reconcile the marriage. We divorced. And God provided me the most wonderful man in the world. We were married in April of this year. And I am AMAZED at how he loves me. He loves me with a godly love. He cherishes me. I completely understand that God hates divorce. He is not pleased with my divorce. But I am not responsible for it. An abusive man is the responsible one. Praise God for mercy and healing! Praise His holy name. Thank you, Sheila, for standing up for those who are confused and living in fear every day of their lives. Thank you.
I think that the real trouble with following the Pearls advice is the spirit in which it its followed. We cannot put our heads under our chairs when we read anything. I haven’t read the books mentioned, but I have read a lot of their other publications. The tone I have come away with is, first, Love your children. Seek to build relationships with them.Work together with them. Do whatever so that they know you are for them. Then discipline them based on that relationsip. People think, “Oh, the Pearls have successfully raised five children who are godly and good mothers and wives now. All I have to do is follow their advise without wavering and I will come up wilth the same result.” but they totally miss the part about building the realtionship. It can only go south from there!
As for the other issue of the wives being responsible for the husband’s sin, she isn’t. But if I sinfully do something that provokes anyone, it doesn’t matter who it is, I am partially responsible for their response. (Fathers, don’t provoke your children.) “Sinfully” is a key word. Of course I am NOT talking about the person who I have read about in these comments that is mad at you because it rained.
Carol, since I feel like you might be talking to me with your comment, let me just say that I am very very close to my children. We homeschool mainly so I could really know them and raise them for the Lord. It is *because* of this relationship that the Lord was able to steer me *away* from the Pearls’ advice. Knowing my children as well as I do helps me understand that what the Pearls say in their books (the tone on their website might be totally different) is mostly too harsh.
As far as provocation’s being partially respOnsible for a woman’s beatings, I have a sister in law who could fit right into what you describe. She is loud, obnoxious, and does not back down, even when being hit by her husband. So she should just behave right? Because she is partly responsible for her husband’s actions against her. For her sake, I wish it were that easy. Her perfect behavior would not change his heart. Next time he perceived her opinion to be a threat, or drink a little too much she would again be the target of his rage. The aggressor does not get to decide what provocation is enough for them to commence beating just because they are bigger and stronger. The only reason to hit another person is in self defense or in defense of loved ones. Would I tell my sister in law in shutup? Yeah! But because she is supposed to be a Christian and her behavior is not Christ-like, not because doing so will change her husband’s heart or make him not an abuser.
Stephanie–your last sentence was right on (not that the rest wasn’t, it’s just that that was brilliant).
You are right, Stephanie. I don’t raise my kids the Pearls way. I also Homeschool, and just as my homeschool looks differen’t from yours or anyone else’s, so my child rearing methods are different. What I meant about the Pearls is that many of their followers are thinking methodology is the be all and end all, when it must be custom tailored to each family as we know our children. I’d also say the wife-ing is also custom. Do you think Debi never says anything about that?
I have a question as to what would be considered abuse and what would just be natural disagreements between spouses. If my husband tells me that I must ask for money for things that my grocery money just can’t be stretched to cover at least a month before purchasing them and then I follow hs instructions and at the end of that month time period he claims he doesn’t remember my asking so therefore I didn’t ask and can’t have the needed item is that abuse or just trying to controll my wild spending? If he then says I should both ask and write it down and I do that and he shouts and hits the desk and pounds on the walls and writes next to my request “NO!! YOU JERK!!!!” is that abuse or just that I didn’t ask with the right attitude, maybe I’m ungrateful for the fact that he does provide food for us, maybe I do ask for too much. If I question my husband’s apparent anger at me over something I had no control over and get screamed at for 15 minutes about how selfish and wicked I am, is that abuse or should I have just kept my mouth shut and not asked why he was mad (he said he wasn’t mad before but now I’d made him mad). If I tell my mom once in a while about the way he treats me is that being unsubmissive to him- after all, he has said I am not to talk about our marriage to ayone other than him. Is it just that he’s quiet and has not much to say that he doesn’t talk to me other than just “the weather’s bad” stuff or is it more than that? Is it abuse that he has refused to have sex with me or show any affection for me for over 3 years? Or is it the consequences of m getting pregnant when he didn’t want me to….even though he would not discuss birth control except to say he was against using it?
All that to say that yes, I have come to the conclusion that he is abusive. But. I’ve been told over and over that “If you hadnt done/said this or that, he wouldn’t have been forced to react the wa he did.” That I must live with him an endeavor to not provoke him, to do everything he demands, just endure what he dishes out b/c a wife is supposed to submit. Have I followed the Matthew 18 requirements- I have spoken repectfully to him- stating my feelings, needs, problems and gotten nothing; I have taken it to our parents for their help and input- he responded favorably to them but in private told me he wasn’t going to be manipulated by my lies about him and continued on in the same way; I’ve taken it to our pastor and my husband refused to sit down with the pastor and discuss it saying it was too private and that the pastor knew that it was just me trying to manipulate my husband and that I needed to calm down and work it out with my husband alone. Well, to say that I feel eveyone including God has abandoned me was an understatement. I eventually did find that God had not abandoned me. But now I still struggle with knowing God’s will. Knowing how to submit and be patient and kind and bear all things, respect my husband….and knowing that I hate who I have become- a bitter, often angry and resentful woman, someone who doesn’t stand up and say “This is wrong!” for fear of the repercussions and instead just thinks those things inside and becomes more angry. Ah well. Someday it will be enough and I will snap and take my little ones and disapear. It just is hard for me to be here not knowing when that “someday” will come.(Not my real name)
Elizabeth, it really sounds like you need a friend to talk to and help you through this–someone who can walk alongside you and pray with you and help talk you through. Also, Matthew 18 clearly says that it is not up to you to then confront someone after you’ve gone to the elders–it’s up to the elders to confront him. So I would go back to your pastor and say that Matthew 18 says that you need help, and you need someone to talk to you both of you together and work it through. They don’t have to take your word for it, in other words; it’s up to them to sit down and figure out what’s really going on.
And if the pastor won’t, then you need to go to the elders. You should have some support in this, and it doesn’t sound like you have. You need someone to talk to–someone who can help you through the bitterness you’ve developed, but also someone who can help you figure out the best course of action, and who can pray with you.
You really, really should not be alone in this. We all need someone we can talk to and pray with, and I’ve always felt that darkness grows with secrets. Shed light on things, and often the path becomes more clear.
I pray that you’ll find someone who will really help you,
Sheila.
Sorry, Sheila, I totally disagree with bringing in the church leadership if they already know what has been going on. They are DOING nothing already to help her….why should she go back to them and expect different results? If they are aware that this abuse is at this level, then WHY have they not already brought the police in? HUGE RED FLAG.
Anon…go to the police and report this. What is happening to you is a crime. They will take your statement and then forward it to the county/district attorney to determine if this is indeed criminal behavior that can be prosecuted on the part of your husband. They can also point you to resources to help battered women, such as yourself. Your church IS NOT EQUIPPED to handle this kind of abuse. PLEASE understand that there are EXPERTS on abuse who have far more resources than your church does and who will approach this in a different way that will hold your husband accountable.
I URGE you to take this step.
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Yes, absolutely go to the police. I’m sorry; I should have said that. I do think it’s important to involve church leadership, though, even just to make it clear why you took the steps you have, and insisting that you be treated with compassion and respect. And if the church leadership won’t, then you need to find others who will, because churches need to be held to account on this.
I’ve been following these posts with interest (as a wife, as a Christian AND as an RN who is also a Women’s Health Nurse Practitioner & a faculty member in Nursing). So much of what I am reading constitutes abusive behavior (domestic violence) on the part of the husband. NO one deserves to abused (physically, mentally/emotionally, or sexually). However, I’ve also worked with several patients who have been victims of domestic violence. Most of them believed that “they deserved the abuse” and that if they would change to meet the expectations of the husband, then the abuse would stop ~ but here’s the kicker: They can NEVER meet the expectations of their abuser because those expectations become a moving target. I consistently counseled women to leave the situation and referred them to domestic violence crisis centers (even calling in social workers and case workers to assist me ~ we helped women make safe plans to leave their abusers). I counseled women to contact the police (because domestic violence is a crime) and offered to go with them when they filed the complaint. I have also called the police myself and had them come to the clinic to speak with the woman in the abusive situation. I made sure that all the stalls in the ladies bathrooms had information about domestic violence and the phone numbers of local domestic violence crisis centers. My goal has always been to care for my patients as bio-psycho-social-emotional-spiritual beings and that means being attuned to the ills that plague society (abuse happens at ALL socio-economic levels in my experience) because I am called to help patients maintain their highest level of wellness.
I firmly believe that GOD hates domestic violence and considers it a SIN. As an RN and Nurse-Practitioner, I have a a duty to serve God and in my book, that means that I work to combat domestic violence, human trafficking, and other crimes against humanity.
To Elizabeth: Please contact your local domestic violence crisis center and share your story with them. Please let them help you.
Absolutely. If your church blames you in any way for what has happened to you, then walk away and find comfort with people who deal with abuse every single day in their jobs.
It took many many years for me to look for outside help when my husband abused me. I avoided it because I was taught by the leadership to keep these kinds of things among Christian counsel and NOT involve “the world” in the matters of my supposedly “Christ centered” marriage.
Imagine my surprise when the county attorney was absolutely furious with the way I had been treated. My church leadership NEVER acted like that. Imagine my surprise and my feelings of betrayal when he also said to me that if I kept going like this, I was going to end up in a body bag. That really snapped me to attention. WHY hadn’t my church leadership acted in the same way? WHY had they not warned me instead of prayed with me?
I realized it was because the CA had seen this over and over and over again and had dealt with prosecuting abusers for abusing and sometimes killing their wives. HE WAS AN EXPERT!!!! The church really HAD NO IDEA and instead of admitting it was beyond them, they tried to handle it…..and they should not have.
I
mtwildflower recently posted..Wow, That’s Harsh
I appreciate your anonymity, but I can share that I have been there! I also agree with Sheila that you need someone on the outside to talk to about your situation. I have turned to a women’s group and my pastor. I suggest you pray daily and ask God to help you decide what will be best for your situation. Do not do this alone!
Praying for you!!
Carol, You and I agree that discipline and submission looks different from family to family. But in the books I read, no, I never saw the Pearl’s advocate customizing either of those things. Now that I know about them there are other things I disagree with them about also, so I could not advocate recommending their ministry for anything, even if they said wonderful things in other places.
I am so glad to see this article. We must stop allowing people to use religion (or guilt, or pride, or shame, or any other device) and, worse yet, God as an excuse to tell women (or men, or children) to stay in abusive situations. I’ve seen it and heard it from too many women. Not just physical abuse, but emotional abuse as well. Sheila, thank you so much for speaking out against abuse so firmly. It frightens me, as I read the comments, that every single comment is not “Yes, abuse is wrong; if you’re experiencing it, get help, and get out!” Is there sincerely a debate about this issue? Seriously? A friend was stabbed to death by her husband, in front of her adolescent and preadolescent children. Other friends have shared how so-called partners tell them they are worthless and unloveable, and work to distance them from the family and loved ones whose counsel they might seek, and who might encourage them out of these emotionally abusive situations. Please, please, please, abuse is nothing to play with. In my opinion, if you’re thinking “Is it abuse if …” then yes, it probably is, and help is needed. Sheila, again, THANK YOU for speaking out clearly and unequivocally about this.
I have read this book and coming from a family background of abuse, I found this book very offensive. A person never has the right to put their hands on their spouse in anger. There is no excuse that is acceptable!
When I was first married, I started attending a MOPS group. I met so many wonderful Christian women. One woman gave me a copy of this book- the helpmeet one. I couldn’t wait to read it. After I did, it left me in tears. Even as a young wife and mother…these things didn’t sit right with me. Now, I apologize if I get the exact specifics wrong, (it has been almost 8 years ago) but doesn’t it say something in this book about if your husband is ABUSING your children you can turn him into the authorities. BUT then it says something about going to visit him and then taking the CHILDREN, whom he abused, to go visit him. That is where I had it. I sobbed for the children who would have to be dragged into a situation like that. I also remember reading the knife story. It clearly gives the impression that she made the right choice by staying and fighting. Trust me. I am all about staying and fighting….but not at the cost of your life or your children’s.
Thanhk-you SHeila for this post. Abuse is not love. God would never expect his child to go through that.
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Yes, Theresa, it does say that. It says to turn him in, but to keep visiting him, and then to welcome him back into the home once he’s released from prison, because he’ll be happy to be back.
Paul instructs wives to submit to your husband and the husband to love the wife as He (Jesus) does the church. I like the Pearls. I have read and apply alot of their teachings to my life as a wife and mom of 6. I must state that, no matter what we read outside of the Word is just opinion. No husband or wife should apply any outside teachings without discussing them first. I knew what God said about marriage and my husban read “Helpmeet” before me so that he could say, “I agree with this and not this.” You are one flesh and your union should be treated so. This isn’t about the Pearls or Shelia and their opinions. Its about reading the Word and following that. This blog is Shelia’s opinion. Abuse should not be tolerated and anyone with a lick of sense in thier head knows this. No where does Jeasus say, ” hey girls, let your man beat you!” Its outragous and totally ludicrious. Debi Pearl & Shelia both know this. They have diffrent OPINIONS on how to deal with it. To judge Shelia on her OPINION is not right because Debie has no qualmes judging others teachings. See all OPINIONS. We as christians need to learn right now to stop following opinions of teachers and follow the word. If it doesn;t line up with Jesus, its what? OPINION!!!!
Just over two years ago I walked through a broken-down bathroom door into freedom. I believe that the Lord set me free from a life of fear and shame so that I can continue where I was before I married a man who abused me in His Name. I have been welcomed back to a home church that is my family- full of grace. Before I was married I was learning who I am in Christ and studying His Word. During my marraige I hid in the Psalms and wrote music inspired by verses. I submitted to abuse in Jesus’ Name. My husband spoke evil things and used me, yet preached Christianity. I read the Helpmeet book by Debi Pearl- it was a wedding gift. Even though at the time I was living in fearful denial- coping, surviving and submitting- I was uncomfortable with the author’s tone and what I can only describe as presumptuousness. I do not think her advice is as helpful to women as her and her husband claim. Ironically, after a year of quietly asking the women in our Bible Study to pray for more gentleness (as if THAT was the problem)… I finally began to share a bit of what was going on at home. I was convinced they would urge me to submit harder. Much to my surprise, they told me not to let him treat me like that and ended up helping me when push came to shove. Both my husband and Debi had given a message that divorce would lead to harsh regret. This is not so in my experience of an abusive marraige. I may be lonely for a [KIND] husband now , but I am NOW FREE to enjoy loving fellowship, to simply worship God and to socialize with people without recrimination, judgement or isolation. I may have to work hard for little, but I am enjoying a colorful job and also able to pursue putting to use the creative gifts that had otherwise suffered under a load of shame. God is restoring, comforting and healing me- He rose and showed compassion-our Lord is a God of justice-blessed are all who wait for Him. He heard my cry, He found me, delivered me and set me in a broad place. If I am to suffer as Christ, let me do so while walking in the freedom He gives- with WISDOM. That includes the grace of discernment of character and the strength to say NO when someone is behaving badly. I’m glad you wrote this article- I realize you are taking the heat for it. THANK you.
I left my abusive husband after he became physically violent. I didn’t realize that he had been abusive for the two years we were married until after we separated. I knew something was wrong, but when I went to my church and family for help, they told me the problem was me, not him. Fortunately, I was connected to a local woman’s center after he was arrested for assault, and they showed me that I wasn’t the problem, and I didn’t have to just put up with it. Amazingly, my leaving was the wake up call my husband needed, and after 18 months of counseling, prayer and hard work, not only were we able to reconcile, but we had another baby! Now, a year later, we’ve renewed our vows, and we are expecting again! The difference in this man is incredible — it’s like he got a spiritual heart transplant, and he is now the man I thought I was marrying on our wedding day. If I hadn’t had the courage to leave, and then the courage to go back, we wouldn’t be here. Leaving doesn’t mean divorce, but it does mean standing firm. And there has to be real change before reconciliation, and that takes time and patience. I think had we had this book, my husband would be in jail, and we’d be divorced now, because it sure doesn’t encourage a woman to high expectations of her man, but rather encourages her to enable his bad behavior and poor choices. If he truly is the head of the home, then ladies, let him have the consequences of his choices. How else will he learn, if you take over and protect him instead of him protecting you..he is not your responsibility, like your children are. He is accountable to God for his actions, and we need to let him be out there, not let him hide from it.
Sarah, what a great story! Thanks so much for sharing it!
Love the topic of submission. You covered it well in this piece and I hope it touches many women on what it truly means to be submissive!
Melissa recently posted..To submit…or not to submit (it’s really not a question, it’s a command).
I think the bottom line is what a Christian marriage is all about. It is a representation of Christs’ relationship with His church, the Bride of Christ. His Body. Of which we Christians are…
One cannot fathom Christ beating His Bride for some infringement, if she does not submit or meet His expectations. Yet people use His Word to beat their abused sisters into either putting up with more abuse or showing unforgiveness and a hostile reaction to them if they leave or divorce the abuser.
There is often little kindness shown from the Church to the wife who finally could take no more abuse. Which is not Christ like at all. Similar to the tone of CTBHH..
In an ideal world wives would be submissive, and men would lead lovingly, but we are two sinners living as one- imperfect beings trying to live peacefully together. But it can go bad. Even with prayer, counseling, mediation and much effort, often abuse still abounds. This in spite of the fact that the wife has tried all of Debi Pearls’ advice and done all that God and church requires.
Staying in an abusive marriage warps peoples’ perception of marriage. It denies a daughter of the King basic human rights: to live with dignity and to have freedom from fear. Surely this is what Christ would want for her! It is important not only to the woman to know that God does not countenance abuse of His Bride, but to those who do see the problem and who do not help. This includes certain authors…
A lot of people like Debi Pearl, have no real qualifications or empathy for the abused to know the fear that gnaws at one continually and the uncertainty that God maybe doesn’t esteem her as His own….
It is a good thing that God understands and is forgiving. With regard to spousal abuse, most Christians are like Debi Pearl- until it happens to them….
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Wow! Well said. Thank you.
I think I read the Pearl’s books years ago but don’t remember it well enough to comment intelligently, but I do remember “back in the day” when I was devouring any book I could get my hands on about submission and godly marriage, being very frustrated with the “stay silent” mentality of many of them. I believe that there are times to stay silent, but times to absolutely speak up, and we need to be sensitive to hearing from the Holy Spirit, not an author of a popular book.
I’d like to share my story:
I am married to a clinically depressed, recovering alcoholic. It has been a daily struggle to balance submission and surrendering him to God with holding him accountable and confronting him with truth. I have probably erred on the side of silence at times, but nagging certainly doesn’t help much either! I will say up front that my husband has never been violent or verbally abusive to me. I do see, looking back, that our children have suffered emotional damage from his “rants”, and I am tempted to feel guilty, but I know that I have always done what I felt best and now I must trust God to repair any damage….and yes, one of our kids is receiving professional help, so I’m not saying we’re ignoring things that need to be addressed…..
It’s never easy to decide when to speak and when to stay silent, but I will share a few examples from my story.
First of all, my husband has always been willing to seek healing for his emotional health, and he does have a desire to hear from God and be obedient. He doesn’t always act as quickly as I would like, but he has never pretended to have it all together, so I do feel the freedom to sit back and let God deal with him. I may have acted much differently if this had not been the case.
When it first became clear to me that he truly needed counselling, I found the information for the local Christian counselling center, e-mailed the website to him, and told him that I fully expected him to follow through. I believe I gave him a deadline such as “I expect you to call by Tuesday and make an appointment” I knew that he felt overwhelmed and would have never sought the information on his own, but he might make the phone call if I did some leg work. And thankfully, he did.
When it later became clear that he needed to be seen by a medical doctor to asses whether he was clinically depressed, I knew he’d never take the time to locate a doctor, so I asked him if he would go if I found a doctor and made him an appointment. He agreed, so I did just that.
***Now, let me make a plug for medication here. I had no idea for 20 years that my husbands mood swings, rants, and self destructive talk and behavior was due to the fact that he was clinically depressed. Depressed people don’t act or think rationally, and you CANNOT reason with them. Medication has truly made him a different man. Oh, my. word! It costs us a fortune, but it is worth every penny. I wish we had know this years ago. I say this to say, if anyone is dealing with a spouse who shows signs of being clinically depressed, don’t hesitate getting evaluated by a medical doctor. Depression is a true medical condition and needs to be treated just like any other medical condition such as cancer or diabetes. *** (end of public service announcement
But. our story is still not finished. It also began to be apparent to me over the past few years that my husband is an alcoholic. I tried every tactic known to woman to get him to stop drinking and none of them worked. This was one that I had to surrender to God and stay silent. Not easy! I failed miserably, but FINALLY, he was forced (by no doing of mine) to admit to himself and me that he is indeed an alcoholic. He confessed this to select men in his life and began to attend AA. His drinking didn’t stop (in fact, it got worse) but because he was taking steps and had men in his life who knew what was going on, I felt that my role was to listen, love and support. The one thing I absolutely would not tolerate however was lying. If i caught him in a lie, I confronted him. I didn’t run around like a private eye, but there were times i knew in my heart he was lying, and when I did a little investigating to confirm this, I would confront. I do think it is important for our husbands to know that we expect honesty even if the truth is going to hurt. Allowing yourself to be lied to is not being submissive. In fact, the lying has probably done the most damage to our marriage than anything else.
He has been in a place of sobriety for a short time now, and I will continue to submit to allowing God to do the work, letting my husband work out his own healing, but not allow deception. As long as he is moving in the direction of health, I do feel that my place is to submit, support, love and respect. I don’t ask him on a daily basis if he has had a drink. I trust that God will make known to me what I need to know. (and I can always smell it on his breath anyway
I think to sum up what I have learned through what has, at times, been very painful and uncertain, is that I do need to give the Holy Spirit room to work in my husband’s life. That is where the “silent submission” comes in. BUT, I am also his partner and sister in Christ, and that is where the confronting and holding accountable come in. I need to make sure though, that I am not doing so much confronting that he can’t hear the Holy Spirit over my nagging.
I apologize that this was so long, but I wanted to share my story of how I am still working this issue of submission out in my marriage. Perhaps part of my story will help someone else who is going through something similar. I would also be happy to answer any questions anyone has.
I loved Debi Pearls book because it saved my marriage. I am not going to elaborate here but she changed my whole attitude and made me see things that I was being selfish about. I think my husband and I have a great marriage. Definitely not perfect, but great, none-the-less.
Now I know there are extremes out there and people take writings out of contexts and letter of the law. But for the average person who is willing to use common sense, this is an excellent book.